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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by AuntieMel on June 8, 2005, at 13:27:03
In reply to Re: Can't get past this HATRED! » AuntieMel, posted by Susan47 on June 8, 2005, at 11:35:07
Posted by gardenergirl on June 8, 2005, at 14:03:51
In reply to Can't get past this HATRED!, posted by margie24 on June 8, 2005, at 2:46:39
margie,
I'm sorry you are in this position. I've been blessed with (mostly) good inlaws, so I can't speak from experience, here. I think Auntie Mel's advice to focus on supporting your parents is good.Also, I do think I understand wanting to put someone in their place, so to speak. Or wanting to let someone know you are on to them. That's risky for a number of reasons, as you have already thought through, it seems. Would it help to write it all down in a letter to your brother's fiancee, read it outloud to someone you trust, and then destroy it? Sometimes it helps to lessen the intensity of feelings such as you describe to do something like that. Just don't send it if you want to preserve some relationship with your brother.
I hope you find some happy moments at the wedding with the other guests, at least. Let us know how it goes.
And you're not barging in. That's what we are here for.
gg
Posted by MidnightBlue on June 8, 2005, at 14:17:30
In reply to Can't get past this HATRED!, posted by margie24 on June 8, 2005, at 2:46:39
Margie,
Is it possible that on some level you might be jealous of your sister-in-law-to-be? Think hard about that before you answer.
Do you wish you had a Lexus? or a huge diamond ring? Are you having to work in a job you don't like?
I can tell you are in a lot of pain, but I bet your brother is, too. It really isn't fair to tell your brother he has to choose between his wife or his family.
NO ONE will feel any better if you make a big scene either before or at the wedding. You are playing with fire and someone is going to be burned.
If at all possible try to get in to see a counselor who you can vent all these feelings to.
Hugs,
MidnightBlue
Posted by margie24 on June 8, 2005, at 15:40:20
In reply to Re: Can't get past this HATRED!, posted by AuntieMel on June 8, 2005, at 9:07:14
Auntie Mel, Thank a lot. I hope I begin to see signs that my brother is happy. That's all I want. Right now he seems lifeless, robotic.
Susan, there is no "poor girl". We are not evil in the least bit. You are filtering in your own experience and bashing me. I'm sorry your experience has left such a scar, but that doesn't mean every chick who doesn't like her sister-in-law and loves her brother is vicious and cruel. As I've already replied to you, I know I made mistakes. I need to live and let live. But this has never been one sided.
I do not want my brother all to myslef. We've never been that close, nothing has really changed for us. I just want him to be happy, not appearing as though he's being drug around by a leash.Gardener, yes I have looked at my part AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN. My motives, my insecurities, my subconscious,...I do not drive a Lexus or wear a huge ring. I'm a saver. Yes, her ring is beautiful. It's amazing in fact. But, it's just a ring afterall. I just thought an engagement ring was suppose to be a suprise, a gift from your husband. If I had more money, I still don't think I'd change my car. I am a teacher, and I love my job. She always looks so nice and I'm all about jeans and t-shirts, so maybe I envy her put-togetherness. But I like being comfortable. I have thought a lot about jealousy. Her family is wealthy and I guess she's always been a big shopper. She learned the importance of "things" from what I gather. I grew up very middle class and shopping for the sake of shopping was never something I learned. Paying too much for things was something we tried not to do. I hope I've allowed that to be just a difference between us, and not a source of jealousy. I can afford to dress in nicer clothes, I just chose not to. Maybe I haven't tried hard enough to understand her beliefs and values. I don't know.
Thanks so much for the input guys. Thanks for taking time to advise me.
Margie
Posted by PM80 on June 8, 2005, at 15:41:36
In reply to Can't get past this HATRED!, posted by margie24 on June 8, 2005, at 2:46:39
Perhaps instead of wanting to hurt her, you could focus on not letting yourself get hurt and letting yourself enjoy the celebration. Did you feel that you went the extra mile while she slapped you in the face? Did you want her to like you? That makes you human. If it were me, I would still be hurting from this. She may have felt manipulated and forced to "fit in" with the fam when she may have be honestly uncomfortable with large families. She is clearly feeling some kind of hurt of her own if she feels she needs to set a list of rules. She may truly not understand where you all were coming from becuase in her family that much attention truly was control/manipulation. She is her own person and is allowed to do what wants to do. It is what it is and you cannot do anything about it. You are your own person - put a healthy boundary there. Rather than feel threatened by her, just acknowledge that she can be herself, as unbecoming and as unlikable as that may be. Her being mean does not make your being mean right. Instead of wanting to tell that she is Barf, maybe try focusing on the fact that you get to see your brother and your family at the wedding. If she really is that horrible, how could she possibly be worth letting her ruin the event for you? If you let yourself be eaten by this hatred, you will be the one missing out.
Your brother WILL always be your brother. His wife will always be a sensitive subject, probably becuase you are his sister and he cares what you think. There has to be care if there can be hurt. If you want to have a relationship with your brother, think of his feelings - caught in the middle. He should not have to choose between his wife or his family. Acknowledge that she is his wife, no more, no less. The ring is on her finger, and he is an adult. Respect that and things will go smoother.
Posted by margie24 on June 8, 2005, at 15:49:54
In reply to Re: Can't get past this HATRED!, posted by AuntieMel on June 8, 2005, at 9:07:14
oops, I meant to address Midnight, not gg.
Gardenergirl, I am trying to keep my mouth sealed for my brother. The fake smile at the wedding, will be for him as well. I want to do whatever I can to keep him around. Maybe writing a letter (and destroying it) to her or even my brother would help. I'll try it. Plus, I really try to remember, I have no place to tell her what I think anyways. The only thing I struggle with is wanting to tell her how much she hurts my mom. My mom did absolutely nothing. And why did she not allow my mom to submit a list for wedding guests? I want to ask her so badly.
Sometimes, this seems like such a small issue, but doing the right thing has been one of the hardest things I've ever done. Keeping my mouth shut has been unbearable at times.
Thanks gg,
Margie
Posted by margie24 on June 8, 2005, at 15:58:29
In reply to Re: Can't get past this HATRED!, posted by PM80 on June 8, 2005, at 15:41:36
Thanks so much PM. I think you're right, and my brother has tried to explain this. She came from a very small family, and I think she interprets questions as being very intrusive, even like, "So how's school going?". I'm just a pry-er. (Hence, I'm on psycho-babble. I like to know the juicy details in one's life and mind and heart. Honestly, after 4 years I can tell you almost nothing, literally. She probably thinks we've been interviewing her.
I really believe sometimes we have misinterpreted each other. But, sadly, it's almost too late. The walls have been erected.
And, when you say "my brother is caught in the middle". It breaks my heart. What a motivator.Your response was very helpful.
Margie
Posted by PM80 on June 8, 2005, at 16:13:51
In reply to Re: Can't get past this HATRED!, posted by margie24 on June 8, 2005, at 15:58:29
Well, I have an evil step-mother...
So, I do kinda know what you are going through. Keep your head up and don't worry about her.
Posted by JenStar on June 8, 2005, at 20:52:28
In reply to Can't get past this HATRED!, posted by margie24 on June 8, 2005, at 2:46:39
hi Margie,
I'm so sorry that you have to deal with this! I guess if your brother truly loves her, you'll have to find some way to accept her presence or else you'll lose your brother completely. If she doesn't do anything illegal, immoral, or just evil you should probably go to the wedding and smile a lot and keep your mouth shut. I know it will be hard, but your brother will probably be relieved and appreciative.Could you try talking to her 1:1 after the wedding sometime? Maybe get together for lunch with just her, a "girls day out." Be honest and say something like, "hey, I know we never seemed to get along from the start. I'd really like to be closer to you b/c it's obvious how much you mean to my brother. How do you feel about it?"
Even if you feel it's all her fault, saying something like that might open the door to a better relationship. I'd recommend NOT calling her names or insulting her at that meeting (even if you really really want to, and even if she really deserves it!) b/c that will just make things worse. And you can always call her names later if the "nice" stuff doesn't work...
At least you'd get the cards on the table, so to speak.
But for the wedding, I'd say just "suck it up" and be nice. Support your mom. Make it a point to be generous, gentle and sweet to your mom, esp. if she is having a hard time with this wedding, too.
And tell us what you decide!
Again, I'm so sorry you have to deal with this. I know it sucks.JenStar
Posted by JenStar on June 8, 2005, at 21:08:37
In reply to Can't get past this HATRED!, posted by margie24 on June 8, 2005, at 2:46:39
Margie,
I was just thinking. If she felt that she needed to mail you a list of "relationship rules," she must be having some serious issues getting along with you all, or at least THINKS she does. I know you said that your family is fun and gets together a lot, and that you tried to welcome her. But is it possible that she got a different vibe entirely, even mistakenly, and has erected her own defenses now in return?It sounds like she is not happy and doesn't feel welcome.
About the wedding guests - I know that's a HUGE sore topic for most brides & their mother in laws! It's always an issue, even if they get along! It may be that they just had a certain budget, and if they are paying for it themselves, they have the right to pick their own guests. Certainly she could have told your mom to invite a few friends, but it's also possible that your brother could have pushed for that, if he really wanted it. Truthfully the bride's wedding is all about her and her family.
I'd really recommend trying to talk to her, but not now...after the wedding...and a good time after so she can enjoy her honeymoon.
The car and the ring - clearly your brother feels they can afford it, right? Or else he would not have got them?
Do you feel competitive with her b/c you're both teachers?
Do you think that it's possible to ever be friends with her?
JenStar
Posted by rainbowbrite on June 8, 2005, at 21:59:06
In reply to Re: Can't get past this HATRED!, posted by margie24 on June 8, 2005, at 15:40:20
Just wanted to add my 2 cents...
>>But, it's just a ring afterall. I just thought an engagement ring was suppose to be a suprise, a gift from your husband.
Not always....I will be choosing mine, its really common now to do that. My friends have all chosen theirs and some have designed them.
>>If I had more money, I still don't think I'd change my car. I am a teacher, and I love my job. She always looks so nice and I'm all about jeans and t-shirts, so maybe I envy her put-togetherness. But I like being comfortable. I have thought a lot about jealousy. Her family is wealthy and I guess she's always been a big shopper. She learned the importance of "things" from what I gather. I grew up very middle class and shopping for the sake of shopping was never something I learned. Paying too much for things was something we tried not to do. I hope I've allowed that to be just a difference between us, and not a source of jealousy.
From what I am hearing from your post is that her lifestyle really bothers you, correct me if Im wrong. it is tough when you mix families it gets even more complicated...I mean sibling to sibling is differnet enough but bring in an outsider who has a different way of life and it will rock the boat.
Maybe try to see where she is coming from...she is entering a large family and probably is self conscious. But if she grew up being and living 'impractical', trust me it is not an easy thing to change. Just as it would be hard for you to throw money away on silly things it is hard for her not to. Thats just her.>>I can afford to dress in nicer clothes, I just chose not to. Maybe I haven't tried hard enough to understand her beliefs and values. I don't know.
I guess that is what I was sort of getting at above...I am not trying to be mean but I think that is a good possibility. It is very hard to do that though. And just remember it is not easy to change another person. Keep things in perspective, do you want to risk losing your brother?
I feel for you, it sounds awful.
Posted by margie24 on June 8, 2005, at 22:13:17
In reply to Re: Can't get past this HATRED! » margie24, posted by JenStar on June 8, 2005, at 20:52:28
> Could you try talking to her 1:1 after the wedding sometime? Maybe get together for lunch with just her, a "girls day out." Be honest and say something like, "hey, I know we never seemed to get along from the start. I'd really like to be closer to you b/c it's obvious how much you mean to my brother. How do you feel about it?"Yes, I can try. It will be very hard for me though. I have done this already, just not in person...I've done it over the phone and email. And I wasn't mean, I'd never call her names.
I don't have the courage to face her right now and I really don't know what I have to say. Sometimes I have a lot to say, but when people like you calm me down, I realize, I have nothing. I just have bad feelings about her and we're pretty different I guess. Maybe not.Thanks Jenn,
Margie
Posted by margie24 on June 8, 2005, at 22:37:33
In reply to Re: Can't get past this HATRED! » margie24, posted by JenStar on June 8, 2005, at 21:08:37
About the list of rules. No, we weren't having big issues then. That's why it was so weird. The last "rule" said something like "we don't feel it's necessary to be at every birthday gathering from here on out." My bro would never say that! I really feel like she just wanted us gone. Maybe the fact that their are 3 sisters bothers her, who knows. Truly, it's a mystery to us all. My mom and sister both, seperately had lunch with my brother to talk about why they sent the email of rules and what's going on (Barf was invited, but only came when my sister met with them.) When my mom and bro met, she said it was just like they were strangers. When my sister met, her goal was to find out what they needed from us in order to feel comfortable.
Still, no one knows what the hell happened. I just think we threaten her plans with him, honestly.I just got married in Dec. There is no way I wouldn't ask my mother-in-law who I should send an invite to. No way. I simply communicated to her how many I felt would work out. It wasn't friends that my mom wanted to invite, it was her cousin!
The ring thing, I just have my own opinions about this I guess. I think weddings and engagements have lost their romance. It seems like we miss the whole point sometimes. Many of my friends had a hand in the ring thing too. I guess I understand, they want to like it.
Speaking of the ring, can I tell you where it went down hill for she and I?
They got engaged 2 years ago. My mom told me and I called them to congratulate. Only my brother was there and so I talked to him for a while. Toward the end I asked about the ring. Did she like it? He told me she already sort of knew, that she'd drawn a picture based on one they'd seen and this designer made it. I asked who the designer was because I had a ring made as well. He told me and I was like, Oh my gosh, I know him. Isn't he nice...blah, blah, blah.
We hang up and she calls me fifteen minutes later and says. "I'm really disappointed with [my bro]. We had an agreement that the details of my ring would not be discussed. I overheard him talking to you when I came home. I would appreciate it if you would keep that to yourself."
I was stunned. Speechless. I'll never forget it. To this day I don't get it. I called my bro later that evening becasue I couldn't put it to rest. I wanted an explanation from her. He told me he was sorry and that he would have her call me, that she had no right to speak to me that way. I told him I didn't want an apology, I just wondered if he could tell me why the heck she cared.
Oh, by the way...my mom wasn't given a mother's day gift the next month because as she told me, "they" couldn't afford it.I'm such a nutt. I could go on and on. I leave tomorrow for the wedding. I'm just grabbing for any piece of mind I can get.
If it wasn;t for this message board, I'd be in a much crumbier place. I've been humbled I guess. When you see a consensus among responses here saying it's not my business, I have to accept that. Why do I keeop thinking it is my business!!?
Anyway,
Thanks so much,
Margie
Posted by margie24 on June 8, 2005, at 22:48:35
In reply to Re: Can't get past this HATRED! » margie24, posted by JenStar on June 8, 2005, at 20:52:28
JenStar, I TRULY don't mean this to be ugly at all, just want to ask. Do you really believe a wedding should be all about the bride and her family? Where does that come from? I heard it tons when I was preparing for my wedding. "This is your day."
I never felt that way. I felt like it was completely OUR day. And one of the most important things was that our guests have fun and, above that, that WE enjoy our day, our celebration. The coolest part about our wedding was that it was a GATHERING of families and we could have fun together. Why should the focus be just on the bride, there's a groom there too!
I just don't understand.
I hope you don't see this as criticizing your beliefs. You're getting married soon, right? I can't tell you how much it helped me to have that perspective. If you and your family is the whole focus, then you have such incredible resposibility. I saw myself as more of a participant in a beautiful day. My job was to have fun and look cute. Just a thought.
Thanks again, Margie
Posted by margie24 on June 8, 2005, at 22:53:50
In reply to Re: Can't get past this HATRED! » margie24, posted by JenStar on June 8, 2005, at 20:52:28
JenStar,
Do I think I could be friends with her? I don't think we'd ever have connected another way. Beleieve me, I have friends who are "impractical", in fact, lol, ALL of my friends are (that's just the area where I live). That's not it.
It's just that she and I are so different.
Does that mean I should just let it go and not try to repair things?
M
Posted by JenStar on June 8, 2005, at 23:50:39
In reply to Re: Can't get past this HATRED!, posted by margie24 on June 8, 2005, at 22:48:35
hi Margie,
actually I've been married for years already! :)I agree that in an ideal world the wedding would or should be about family and gathering & togetherness, but most of the weddings I've been to were not exactly like that. For most of them, including my siblings, the bride spent months agonizing over dresses and silverware and place setting and meals, and then on the day of the wedding, she was too stressed to really mingle and have that togetherness. (My hubby and I had a tiny wedding, so it was much different for us!) I know that each bride had pockets of fun, and bits of genuine enjoyment with family, but the whole 'event-ness' of the thing was somewhat overwhelming.
But I think the wedding is really for the bride, not so much for the groom. The bride gets to make all the choices, typically arranges everything, and she's the "star" of the day. Of course the groom is THERE too (very important part!) but to me, anyway, it seems that weddings are more about the girl.
I'm sure that not everyone feels that way or has experienced that, so please don't take offense!
But from what you describe of your soon-to-be sister in law, she will most likely be the type who wants the day to be all about her...
Also, I don't think you should feel humbled by any post here. You know more about the situation than can probably be described, we're all just trying to offer other perspectives. Since we don't really know you or the family, we're all just making our best suggestions based on our experiences. At least, that is what I'm doing!
She does sound difficult...
do you think you can enjoy the wedding at all?JenStar
Posted by JenStar on June 8, 2005, at 23:53:32
In reply to Re: Can't get past this HATRED!, posted by margie24 on June 8, 2005, at 22:53:50
I don't know...I guess to me, it seems worth it to try and repair the relationship with her, only b/c she's the key to your brother. I know it sucks that it is that way, but she's the gatekeeper now and you have to be "in" with her (or so it sounds!) to get to him. It seems that it would be definitely worthwhile to develop a relationship with her!
good luck. The whole situation sounds difficult. I feel for you!
JenStar
Posted by Susan47 on June 9, 2005, at 0:35:52
In reply to Re: are you ok susan? (nm) » Susan47, posted by AuntieMel on June 8, 2005, at 13:27:03
I was just going into the past a bit too much, maybe.. I see I posted to you in my confusion. I apologize for that.
Posted by Susan47 on June 9, 2005, at 0:39:35
In reply to Re: Can't get past this HATRED!, posted by margie24 on June 8, 2005, at 15:40:20
Did I say you were "evil"? Because if I did, I apologize. No, you may not be a violent person, but you did say you had visions of punching her in the face. I can't imagine having those kind of visions. That's violent. If that's how you're feeling, that's intense, and extreme. I'm reiterating that therapy would be a good idea.
Posted by margie24 on June 9, 2005, at 1:33:47
In reply to Re: Can't get past this HATRED! » margie24, posted by Susan47 on June 9, 2005, at 0:39:35
I sent this to the wrong place, oops.
JenStar,
I'm up again. I read your post. Thanks. Sorry, I confused you with someone else. Sounds like your wedding was a lot like mine.
I agree about weddings. And, you're right, most men really could probably do without them. So in that aspect, it probably is the bride's day. And there's no way I'll take that away from her.
I've decided I will enjoy the wedding. I even thought of something to say if they allow me to toast at the rehearsal dinner. I'll tell her she's completed my brother (which is probably true) and then say we're glad to have another sister. It will be very therapeutic...that's how I find therapy. I think I can do it. I might pass out. The thought frightens me becasue I want to mean it and I don;t want her to roll her eyes (inside). You know what, though, I know my brother would feel relief.
Something you said really hit me tonight and I feel disgusted if this could be true. I had a vision of some gathering we had several years ago and I clearly saw her, happy, joking, etc. I asked my husband if I was imagining it, and he said, no, he remembers very early on she was like that. She even started bargain shopping and bragging about how cheap she got something for (which is one of our favorite pasttimes). I'm so worried that I could be right. Maybe she was trying to fit in with us, and we somehow didn't let her in. (?) There was a picture taken of us 3 girls (the sisters) when my sis was 9 months pregnant. I know sis-in-law was there. Why wasn;t she in the picture. Did we exclude her or was she in the bathroom. At my wedding, I asked my brother to serve as a "bridesmaid". Did that hurt her feelings? It was so long ago, I can't remember how or when she could have felt unwelcomed. Maybe she's like me and instead of seeming saddened or hurt she turned into Super-Bitch-I-Need-You-Not.
What if that's really what happened. Suddenly, after all this time, I feel like I want to give her a big hug.
Did we unknowingly shun her because she's different? I mean she is in terms of her sense of humor, her priorities, her expressions of happiness, her quiet demeanor (not just the upbringing thing). And she really isn;t the nicest person you could meet, but...
CRAP! It's gonna be a long night.
Thanks again for listening,
Margie
Posted by margie24 on June 9, 2005, at 2:33:13
In reply to Re: Can't get past this HATRED! » AuntieMel, posted by Susan47 on June 8, 2005, at 11:35:07
I just want to make this clear for the hell of it. Maybe to future posters, maybe for the folks who responded.
I'm so grateful to those of you who listened with a constructively critical ear. Although I am a stranger to you, you still took the time to try and get me to a place where I could feel okay at my brothers wedding. As a result, I will now come into contact with handfuls of people and bring more hope and understandign than I would have otherwise. A light came on that wasn't bright enough. I'm indebted.
To Susan, Therapy is great I'm sure, but the best medicine in life is getting out of ourselves. I see you've hurt people in the past with your comments. I'm not hurt, fortunately, I can see you're just working through some stuff. But you must know people come here for support. You must know we people come weakened in some aspect. Would you rather send people running away with no problem solved or with maybe a tiny ray of hope you've given them? Again, when you don't know the full story, maybe you should hold off your bashing until you know what's up.I leave tomorrow morning and I feel so positive. I can clean my side of the street and that's all I can do.
I'll post and let you know how it went, if anyone's inetersted.Thanks again,
Margie
Posted by Dinah on June 9, 2005, at 7:15:36
In reply to Re: Can't get past this HATRED! » AuntieMel, posted by Susan47 on June 8, 2005, at 11:35:07
Dinah here, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob.
> I feel no empathy for you other than that reserved for the blind.
> What you're doing is really, really sad.I understand that are upset, and I'm sorry, but please follow the civility guidelines.
Please respect the views others even if you think they're wrong.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you have any questions about the civility guidelines, they're at
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
If you disagree with my actions, you can contact Dr. Bob by email or on the Administrative Board. He has the ability to overturn all deputy decisions.
Posted by annierose on June 9, 2005, at 7:20:55
In reply to Re: Can't get past this HATRED!, posted by margie24 on June 9, 2005, at 2:33:13
Margie -
Please keep us posted on the events of the weekend.
I agree that you are in a no-win situation. With time your relationship with your sister-in-law may improve. She sounds incredibly self-centered. Maybe she is jealous. Does she have any siblings? An only child can feel left out of the comradity of a large family.
Have faith and hope. Try to give her the benefit of the doubt when appropriate and possible for the sake of your relationship with your brother.
A few weeks after the wedding, I would try to arrange lunch with her. Ask her pointedly, "you seem to be quite angry with me, is there something I did that bothered you?" or "I would like you to feel more comfortable with our large family gatherings, how can I help?"
All you can do is extend the olive branch. If she declines it, that says a lot about her.
Good Luck.
Annierose
Posted by Dinah on June 9, 2005, at 7:22:41
In reply to Re: Can't get past this HATRED!, posted by margie24 on June 9, 2005, at 2:33:13
Dinah here, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob.
> I see you've hurt people in the past with your comments.
> You are filtering in your own experience and bashing me.Please be sensitive to the feelings of others even if yours are hurt.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
I understand that you may have felt hurt, but the rules of this site are clear that responses to posts must follow the civility guidelines nevertheless. In fact, Dr. Bob has included a list of alternatives when you're feeling upset at the civility guideline link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Deputy actions can always be overturned by Dr. Bob, so if you don't believe I was correct, you can email him directly (his email is at the bottom of each page) or post on the Admin board.
Replies of an administrative nature should be redirected to the Administrative board, and all posts should, of course, be civil.
Posted by AuntieMel on June 9, 2005, at 12:06:23
In reply to Re: are you ok susan? » AuntieMel, posted by Susan47 on June 9, 2005, at 0:35:52
I knew you didn't mean me. I could also tell that this topic brought up some intense past hurts.
I was worried that you might be really upset. That's why I asked.
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