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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on February 28, 2002, at 10:24:00
I would have titled this "Angry husbands" but since my husband knows my posting name I thought that might be unwise.
I began to wonder last night if I am expecting too much of my husband - if a good number of husbands are like him and I just have idealized notions. So I was hoping that in this large number of people with spouses, I could come to realize that his behavior is perfectly normal.
He's a good man. He has never physically abused my son, me, or even my dogs. He's brilliant, witty, responsible, and honorable. My son loves him immensely. I wouldn't do without him for the world and divorce isn't even an option. But I have a problem with his anger. He won't consider therapy because he doesn't think he has a problem.
Some examples:
Son has feet with shoes on sofa. Instead of reminding "son, shoes" he'll jump up and stalk over, grabbing feet off sofa. Or if son has dirty hands and is reaching for something, instead of telling him to go wash hands he'll scream "Stop that" very suddenly. I suppose I should add that son already has problems with anxiety. I call it discipline by startling.
He'll do the same sort of thing with me, going from calm to furious to calm again with amazing speed. And he has an enormous ability to radiate anger. I almost think it's a power thing with him more than anger - a way to control us. Most of the time it just makes me want to hurt myself, but sometimes I explode, screaming very rude things at him or hitting the wall or something. Since the only thing I hate worse than the anger of others is my own, that usually brings on an attack of migraine or irritable bowel syndrome that lays me up for a while.
The dogs are all terrified of him. The best way to herd my dogs is to have him merely stand in the room where we want them to leave. They quickly rush out. He doesn't hurt them, but he'll storm at them with arms raised as if he's going to hit them.
Then there are the miscellaneous acts of road rage, all well within the law and within the bounds of safe driving, but extremely disturbing to the unfortunate passenger in his car.
Of course this doesn't happen all the time, maybe an average of once a day, more some days and not at all on others. Perhaps I should document it so that I have a better idea of how often it happens.
When I talk to him about these things his response is to tell me that he is sorry I am so miserable. If that doesn't stop me, he'll go into loud mea culpas, saying what a terrible husband and father and man he is, almost forcing me into reassuring him.
Again, my only question is whether these are normal spouse behaviours and if I need to just adjust my expectations to a more reasonable level. I am really just looking for detached rational feedback, since I don't wish to be more emotional over the subject than I already am.
Posted by Krazy Kat on February 28, 2002, at 12:54:40
In reply to Anger, posted by Dinah on February 28, 2002, at 10:24:00
Dinah:
My husband grew up in a loud Polish household. He screams things at his mother and grandmother that I wouldn't consider sharing with a tree. They get really angry with each other and then within minutes, they're fine.
I grew up in a very reserved family. Anger was considered a very bad thing. However, things would build up so much, that when they did break, it was very frightening (esp. my Dad).
I have told my hubby that I will not be treated like his mother, but he has rightly pointed out that keeping it all inside isn't good either. Both of seem to avoid "discussions" but we now try to have one at least once a week.
This change came about during a very stressful time - I was ready for a separation. So I think that if you want this to change, and really it should, you may have to be dramatic about it.
I worry that it will end up being hard on your son, since he sounds sensitive (very similar situation to my brother-in-law and nephew).
Also, you know that dogs are very intuitive creatues and their reaction says a lot.
He probably won't go to therapy, but what about couples counseling? Mark and I went to a priest a couple of times and it really helped. (I'm not Catholic, but he is). The problem is really a communication problem. If it's approached that way, maybe he'll see it differently.
Good luck.
- KK
Posted by Krazy Kat on February 28, 2002, at 13:21:12
In reply to Anger, posted by Dinah on February 28, 2002, at 10:24:00
Dinah:
My husband grew up in a loud Polish household. He screams things at his mother and grandmother that I wouldn't consider sharing with a tree. They get really angry with each other and then within minutes, they're fine.
I grew up in a very reserved family. Anger was considered a very bad thing. However, things would build up so much, that when they did break, it was very frightening (esp. my Dad).
I have told my hubby that I will not be treated like his mother, but he has rightly pointed out that keeping it all inside isn't good either. Both of seem to avoid "discussions" but we now try to have one at least once a week.
This change came about during a very stressful time - I was ready for a separation. So I think that if you want this to change, and really it should, you may have to be dramatic about it.
I worry that it will end up being hard on your son, since he sounds sensitive (very similar situation to my brother-in-law and nephew).
Also, you know that dogs are very intuitive creatues and their reaction says a lot.
He probably won't go to therapy, but what about couples counseling? Mark and I went to a priest a couple of times and it really helped. (I'm not Catholic, but he is). The problem is really a communication problem. If it's approached that way, maybe he'll see it differently.
Good luck.
- KK
Posted by Dinah on February 28, 2002, at 17:02:19
In reply to Re: Anger » Dinah, posted by Krazy Kat on February 28, 2002, at 13:21:12
Thanks Krazy Kat,
I don't really think there's any possibility of his changing. He really thinks he's doing the right thing. He thinks it's up to him to teach pedestrians and fellow drivers that they should follow the law. He thinks that our dear sweet son would somehow turn into a hooligan if he doesn't make sure he's disciplined. And I guess he thinks he needs to make sure I do the right thing as well. Now this comes from him. It is his own explanation for his behaviors.
Our sole joint therapy session was a disaster that ended up hurting me quite a bit (and I didn't think he could still hurt me so). My therapist says he will never forget what my husband said. He'd never heard anything quite like it.
We've seen parenting professionals on occasion with regard to our son - therapists connected with our local parenting group. They all tell him that what he's doing is counterproductive given our son's temperament. He freely admits the truth of my description of his behavior. He changes for a few weeks but doesn't keep it up. Well maybe that isn't completely fair. He probably has gotten somewhat better with our son.
I'm so proud of my son. He cries when Dad yells at him, but when Dad scares the dogs, he'll walk right up to him and very politely say "You know, they're just little dogs. You really shouldn't do that." And he's so calm and polite about it. I could just burst. And to his credit, Dad doesn't jump all over him about it.
But maybe I'm just overreacting about it. Certainly I've seen more than a few marriages where the husband was much much worse. And in my own family my mom and dad both had anger eruptions that made my husband look like a saint. I just had hoped that my marriage would be different. Perhaps a childish wish. At any rate it's a vain wish. All I can change is myself.
Thanks again,
Dinah
Posted by trouble on February 28, 2002, at 17:58:40
In reply to Anger, posted by Dinah on February 28, 2002, at 10:24:00
Ahhhh, Dinah,
Husbands? No, never had one of them but I am familiar w/their work.
I think you know what's going on and I think you know how you feel about it.
What is left to do?
He can no more give up the bullying than you can walk out the house stark naked. If you can go on this way, arguing his good points, cleaning up after him, withholding sex, and venting your frustrations amongst your peers I'd say you have a pretty normal marriage.
If it were me I'd make one ground rule:
*No physical corrections whatsoever, to wit:
>
> Son has feet with shoes on sofa. Instead of reminding "son, shoes" he'll jump up and stalk over, grabbing feet off sofa.
Otherwise I don't see anything truly evil w/the man's behavior. Boring, predictable, defensive, sure, but no one's perfect.
The only recourse we ever have w/ others is in our response, it sounds to me like you've been passive and inconsistent in yours. One day you're brave the next day you're a harridan, you deserve better, no He deserves better, blah blah blah.If you love your husband I think the best answer is to just keep doing as you're doing, growing and engaging w/ the world, you're engaging honestly w/ us, helping a lot of people here while working on yourself. Your own self-flourishing will force the issue, like it or not.
After reading your post I felt proud of you that you're not some desperate female codependant whose exclusive focus is on making her man her project. It's fortunate that you don't have to
go through all that deprogramming, that seeing him as his own person doesn't mean you don't care, and that you wish you could help.I know how we women love to analyze men, but that can be harmful in a relationship, nevertheless I'm dying to have a go, so if you don't mind I'll do it. For you.
Your husband has problems, Dinah. That's an observation, it's an observation, and I think his conduct merits it.
Can you say that, my husband has problems? 'Cause 99 people might say so but yours is really the only opinion that matters. So the old man has personality problems, who doesn't?I'm a firm believer in demystification.
It's hard for men to look at their problems, they have the same kind of shame that "needy" women have and deny, though everyone else can see the embarrassing neurosis. One reason they have the neurosis is that they deny it, which they have to do b/c it's so all-encompassing.Your husband, being an average, psychologically snoring guy has mythologized his problems, they're his armor and his spear, they rule his life but they don't exist. It's his stuff, and you can't save him.
What you can do is advocate a reality check in your own mind. That's your stuff. If you won't bring yourself to say your husband has problems, be emotionally correct about it and say that you have a problem w/ his behavior. Make your therapist proud. And if you're having a problem in the marriage then so is he.
But you're not talking and that's trouble in any marriage. What's going on? You know how to express yourself, does that feel forbidden in your house, these days? No one is stopping you from speaking your truth. Of course this is where women f*ck it up beyond belief. Speaking honestly does NOT mean auditioning for the part of Mary, Mother of God, it means talking to the S.O.B man to man.
Come on, you're a world-class teaser, why not try teasing, joking, cajoling and mocking his outrages? It's hard to deny someone who's lovingly making your behavior into a burlesque.If this advice seems automatically out of the question chances are that too many resentments have built up and you're going to have to sit him down and yell and scream 'til godknows when YOUR anger is on the table. Yikes.
Well, it has to start somewhere, I always say getting a firm footing on one's own perspective is a huge accomplishment. I think once we do that doors can be opened.
take care
trouble
Posted by Krazy Kat on February 28, 2002, at 18:26:07
In reply to Re: Anger » Krazy Kat , posted by Dinah on February 28, 2002, at 17:02:19
Certainly true, Dinah, we can only change ourselves. But if this is Really detrimental (SP?) I would encourage you to take a very firm stand and tell him he needs to change this "habit" or he may be facing life alone. I say this only if it's such a weight that it could, potentially, not be worth it.
Otherwise, and I know you said divorce is Not an option, perhaps you can find ways to squelch his anger before it gets started. Your therapist might have thoughts on this.
I guess I'm thinking, you could treat him like a child throwing a tantrum when this happens, or something like that. I am obviously not a psychologist. :)
Any more thoughts?
- KK
Posted by Dinah on February 28, 2002, at 20:54:56
In reply to Re: Anger » Dinah, posted by Krazy Kat on February 28, 2002, at 18:26:07
> Any more thoughts?
>
> - KKNot a one, I'm afraid. My therapist suggested I tell him I would divorce him if we didn't get therapy, but I don't play those games. And he really is a keeper you know. For the most part he is a great guy. This is definitely not a deal breaker, just a source of distress.
I guess my real question was whether my husband's behaviors fall well within societal norms. I am a big believer that reduced expectations are the key to happiness. But I don't want to reduce my expectations to below the behavior I can reasonably expect. If his behavior is outside what is to be expected I will continue to politely, firmly, and fruitlessly insist on better treatment.
Thanks again,
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on March 1, 2002, at 0:04:38
In reply to I'm nobody's wife, posted by trouble on February 28, 2002, at 17:58:40
> He can no more give up the bullying than you can walk out the house stark naked. If you can go on this way, arguing his good points, cleaning up after him, withholding sex, and venting your frustrations amongst your peers I'd say you have a pretty normal marriage.
Well that answers my question. :) (But he cleans up after me.)
> If it were me I'd make one ground rule:
>
> *No physical corrections whatsoever, to wit:
> >
> > Son has feet with shoes on sofa. Instead of reminding "son, shoes" he'll jump up and stalk over, grabbing feet off sofa.
Let me make it clear that he is in no way physically abusive. Grab was too strong a word, I think. We have a non-corporal punishment house.
> The only recourse we ever have w/ others is in our response, it sounds to me like you've been passive and inconsistent in yours. One day you're brave the next day you're a harridan, you deserve better, no He deserves better, blah blah blah.You do know how to throw a dart, trouble.
> Can you say that, my husband has problems? (snip) So the old man has personality problems, who doesn't?
Exactly. We all do. And mostly he's a pretty good guy. A pretty great one, in fact.
> But you're not talking and that's trouble in any marriage. What's going on? You know how to express yourself, does that feel forbidden in your house, these days? No one is stopping you from speaking your truth. Of course this is where women f*ck it up beyond belief. Speaking honestly does NOT mean auditioning for the part of Mary, Mother of God, it means talking to the S.O.B man to man.
I am not at all shy about speaking my truth, albeit very politely. But that's just me, you know. (And he really isn't an S.O.B. He's my husband.)
Oops, got to be honest here. I learned from my parents that there is a certain amount of power in staying calm when others are angry. Maybe that's why it upsets me so when my therapist gets calmer and calmer as I get more upset. (Ah-hah moment).
> Come on, you're a world-class teaser, why not try teasing, joking, cajoling and mocking his outrages? It's hard to deny someone who's lovingly making your behavior into a burlesque.
Oh trouble, that's what I mean by perceptive. (Since it's you, my dear, I'll choose to take those comments in the best possible manner.) Those skills were hard won you know, by years of being the peacemaker in a very angry family. Imagine my dismay when they proved useless with my husband. He even saw what I was doing and informed me straight out that he's not my parents and I can't cajole him. (Good for him, wouldn't you say?)
>
> take care
>
> troubleThank you trouble.
Posted by trouble on March 1, 2002, at 2:13:20
In reply to Re: Anger » trouble, posted by Dinah on March 1, 2002, at 0:04:38
>Those skills were hard won you know, by years of being the peacemaker in a very angry family. Imagine my dismay when they proved useless with my husband. He even saw what I was doing and informed me straight out that he's not my parents and I can't cajole him. (Good for him, wouldn't you say?)
> >
No, Dinah, I wouldn't say. I can't believe he is forbidding you to charm him!
(Anyway your relational strategies are your own business, if he doesn't like them he can lump it.)
But to be pragmatic for a sec, has he ever told you about the right way to approach him when he's bugging you? It's not your job to figure that out, but I do think we owe it to people to let them know when they've baffled us. Your husband strikes me as both highly verbal and non-communicative, this type interests me, the tough nuts to crack.You say you aren't shy about telling your truth, but you do it politely. Politeness is a principle, and I'll tell you straight out I hate principles (almost on principle, hah!) Hate 'em!
Here's what I'm saying-I ought to go upright and vital, and speak the rude truth in all ways. Oops, sorry, Emerson said that. I agree w/ Emerson, I wish he was here.
Even Miss Manners, who promotes civility at any price, has said that etiquette exists b/c honesty and decorum are mutually exclusive. What it comes down to is this:
you can have the truth or you can have boiling rage hidden behind a placid facade, but chances are you won't have both.When I hear discontented women declaim their allegiance to polite truth telling my "seething pit of resentment" alarm goes off. Playing nice when one is pissed off is manipulative. And it doesn't work. Any agreements made in these circumstances will not last.
I don't agree w/ the conventional belief that our anger has to be valid, justified, legitimate and righteous. Anger is a simple thing, it either exists or it doesn't. We complicate anger when we build a case for it, make the other person "wrong" and ourselves morally superior, or, by contrast in "forgetting" the anger, trying to "understand", be strong, be fair, tolerate, forgive; all of which are lovely and virtuous ideas but anger is not an idea. Ideas about forgiveness are not the same as forgiveness.
When we repress our ongoing flow of experience for the sake of a larger principle we get lost in our own minds, people beat themselves unmercifully for this inablity to follow through on noble concepts, believing them to be the solution. They are not. They are the problem.If I can share one more gentle opinion please.
You admonish me that the man in question>> is not an S.O.B He is my husband.
All human beings are by nature moralizing self-serving, unfair S.O.B.s and it's worse than useless to pretend we aren't. I wish I'd said that but as usual, none of these arguments originate w/ me. I'm just a parrot.
trouble
Posted by Anna Laura on March 1, 2002, at 2:34:55
In reply to Anger, posted by Dinah on February 28, 2002, at 10:24:00
Dinah,O.K. , may be what i'm about to say doesn't suit you at all. May be i'm just assuming you could have problems which are similar to mine.
I'm just trying to share my experiences and thoughts without judging or assuming anything.
It's a just a POSSIBLE SCENARIO: please don't think i'm teaching some kind of lesson or that i'm being presumptous about your life.
I just needed to be dramatic and trenchant in order to make myself understood in this language.
I think your demands concerning marriage are perfectly natural : even if it's very frequent for husbands to be like that ther's nothing wrong or childlish with pretending more tenderness, love and affection.
May be what's wrong is expecting things to change without you changing.
I think your husband is to blame in this case: nevertheless, i think you should see inside yourself to begin with.
When a find myself in a situation like the one you're describing, i often recall a chinese proverb which states: "if you can't be on your own, don't get married".
That means if you loose you inner independence then you' re going to have problems in a relationship, 'cause when it's somehow "umbalanced" chances are you put yourself at risk of being abused, or feeling rejected.
Unfortunately this is true in "real life" (outside world) as it's true within a relatioship/marriage. When you come to think marriage it's your shield and your shelter, when you're putting your life in someone else's hands thinking you'd be lost without that person, then problems starts to arise. It's inevitable, 'cause life it's not meant to be lived that way.
If it wasn't so, we wouldn't be able to accomplish anything.
It's o.k. being vulnerable and open hearted, otherwise we wouldn't feel love or emotions, what it's not o.k. it's being so vulnerable your life would be shattered without that person.
We never, never shall loose our inner independence. It's the most precious thing in the world. Then comes respect, love and affection. Then your expectations can be very high.
I'm not talking about being "armoured" nor untrusty or cynical.
I'm talking about reaching the apparently contradictory inner state of being alone with someone's else. You can still mourn and cry if you loose the person you love, you can still feel hurt, sad, happy or gratified but you won't be destroied.
Posted by Dinah on March 1, 2002, at 8:08:10
In reply to Re: Anger: a possible scenario, posted by Anna Laura on March 1, 2002, at 2:34:55
I fervently ask that everyone do me a great favor and let this thread gracefully die. As is not infrequently the case my intentions were good but my judgement was flawed.
I started the thread because I had one of those moments where I was ready for insight, where I was prepared for a paradigm shift in my view of the world.
I am finally ready to accept that the problem is my problem with anger; that everyone gets angry and that I am totally unable to cope with even the normal everyday anger that everyone expresses.
I am certain that the idea has been suggested to me before. I seem to remember an anger seminar I attended. The counselor leading the workshop asked me to stay after the class and worriedly inquired as to whether I was seeking professional help. But you know how it is. No one accepts an insight until they are good and ready.
And it occurs to me that my question was in very bad taste. I don't suppose I would like it if my husband got on the internet, even anonymously, and informed the world that I was fat and slovenly, complete with stories of how much food I could put away in one sitting and my pitiful notions of what cleaning the bathroom entails.
So let's let this thread die, and hopefully it will be archived soon, to wither away in obscurity while I explore my new insight.
Thanks,
DinahPS. Anna Laura - you are completely right.
Posted by mair on March 1, 2002, at 9:43:55
In reply to Re: Anger: please read, posted by Dinah on March 1, 2002, at 8:08:10
Dinah
I'm not trying to perpetuate a thread that you want to end, but I have some experience with what you're describing that I'd like to share. I've checked off for my email address, so drop me a line if you're willing to listen.
Mair
Posted by Krazy Kat on March 1, 2002, at 10:41:39
In reply to Re: Anger » trouble, posted by Dinah on March 1, 2002, at 0:04:38
I was also thinking along trouble's lines re: the teasing and cajoling. What if you started having these "fits"? Would that be a mirror of sorts?
Posted by Zo on March 4, 2002, at 19:55:57
In reply to I'm nobody's wife, posted by trouble on February 28, 2002, at 17:58:40
> Husbands? No, never had one of them but I am familiar w/their work.I worship this woman.
Is there a club?
Posted by Zo on March 4, 2002, at 20:03:20
In reply to Anger, posted by Dinah on February 28, 2002, at 10:24:00
> Again, my only question is whether these are normal spouse behaviours and if I need to just adjust my expectations to a more reasonable level. I am really just looking for detached rational feedback, since I don't wish to be more emotional over the subject than I already am.
Of course it's not, and I think you know that, and I think you also know we can't possibly give you feedback that will not stir up any additional emotion--and at the same time, I know exactly how you feel. I didn't want to have to change my life either, and I didn't realize that it was precisely being super-drained by the man I was unquote married to that was making me feel so drained, so incapable of a better life.
I don't know how to support you other than telling you, as a woman who has had a husband with an anger problem and who thought he loved her despite, the plain truth. And also tell you there are many, many small steps between where you are and where I got to, and that each of them--and we don't know your outcome, do we?---was a recovery of a self I'd lost, as a child. He could have chosen to get on the recovery train, and he chose not, but that was him. What I'm saying is, you, Dinah, can't go wrong if you go on making the best choices for yourself, moment by moment. The most loving, wisest choices. That's the most fruitful choice for your whole family.
In other words, don't you DARE adjust yourself!
Zo
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