![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 26 to 50 of 115. Go back in thread:
Posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 0:40:40
In reply to Re: Thanks GG *trigger?* » gardenergirl, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 0:11:38
Here's some good info on borderline personality disorder
=================================================
http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic270.htm"BPD is considered to have a condition on the border between psychosis and neurosis."
"The disorder is characterized by marked instability in functioning; affect; mood; interpersonal relationships; and, at times, reality testing."
"Patients with BPD might manifest overwhelming anger when in a state of crisis."
"Psychotic symptoms, when present, are short lived, circumscribed, or accompanied by good reality testing."
"The person with a personality disorder is frequently dissatisfied with his or her marked and sustained impairment in social, occupational, or academic functioning."
"Premature death among patients with BPD may be due to the increased risk of suicide in this population. Approximately 70-75% of patients with BPD have a history of at least one deliberate act of self-harm. According to Linehan et al, the **mean estimated rate of completed suicides 9%.**"
=================================================
I'm doomed. :-(
Posted by justyourlaugh on October 14, 2005, at 0:52:08
In reply to Need to understand triggers and suicide, posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 20:42:10
I understand about using descriptions of cutting as triggering. They "trigger" people into cutting etc. I don't get it for suicide though. Talking about suicide doesn't trigger me into suicide. Does it trigger you into thinking about committing suicide?
please reread your post....
how can i be civil....???
never post about how you understand the "cutter"..we are not yours to understand..
please continue to only speak of yourself...
never post about how "borderlines" feeel ..we are not yours to understand..speak for yourself.
if i may...
"the circle is broken"..
Posted by justyourlaugh on October 14, 2005, at 1:07:32
In reply to Re: Borderline personality *trigger*, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 0:40:40
lable(bpb)......is not death(doom).
deneb has shown ..ununderstanding..
several times i have expresed my hurt in her group "labeling"..polically incorrect..many times over...
Posted by Nickengland on October 14, 2005, at 8:36:21
In reply to Good link, (nm) » Nickengland, posted by crazy teresa on October 13, 2005, at 23:04:29
Posted by AuntieMel on October 14, 2005, at 9:11:56
In reply to Need to understand triggers and suicide, posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 20:42:10
Is it really important to understand *why* people are triggered?
Or is it only important to know that they are?
There are many, many things in life that upset others. From small to large.
Chewing and talking at the same time. Cursing. and so on. I don't need to understand *why* they upset people, only that they do. And I need to respect that.
Posted by ClearSkies on October 14, 2005, at 9:22:25
In reply to Re: You DON'T Need to understand triggers » Deneb, posted by AuntieMel on October 14, 2005, at 9:11:56
Thank you, AuntieMel. I couldn't figure out a civil way to word it!
Posted by holymama on October 14, 2005, at 9:59:56
In reply to Re: You DON'T Need to understand triggers » AuntieMel, posted by ClearSkies on October 14, 2005, at 9:22:25
Deneb,
I have three little kids -- 4,5 and 7. I love them with every bone of my body and want to watch them grow up and I want to be a healthy role model for them so that they can have an easier time through their lives.
I do NOT want them to find my dead body and mourn the loss of not having a mother for the rest of their lives and use my example as their own when they run into trouble -- "well, mom did it when times were hard, so it's always an option for me..."
Suicidal feelings are something I BATTLE, not embrace. I feel them intensely when I am really depressed but when I come out of a depression I feel as though I have won the battle by not killing myself.
I think that most people here feel the same way about suicide, so for someone to speak lightly about it is painful and scary for most of us. We want to get away from it, even though our illnesses force us close.
I understand Deneb that you are only trying to understand, not being uncivil. Can you understand that it would be really painful for me to see jokes about suicide here on this site when I (and a lot of others here) am fighting with all of my strength to fight that 'monster' and stay with my babies?
You should see my babies, Deneb. They are too beautiful for words. If you saw them, I think you would understand.
~Autumn~
Posted by Nickengland on October 14, 2005, at 10:21:38
In reply to Re: Thanks GG *trigger?* » gardenergirl, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 0:11:38
Hello Deneb,
Hope you're feeling better today :-)
>I'm sorry Nickengland, I read the post and I thought you were talking about how I should be in jail.
No worries...The way I posted the link and my intention was to copy and paste the professional help available. Basically I copied and pasted the body of the section of that part of the site which happened to include the information about police and courts as it was on the tail end...No way intended to suggest you should go to jail for what you post on an internet forum!
Also, I was having some trouble sleeping last night, I think its because of the darker days coming are affecting my body clock (i'm looking to buy a light box for this) but anyway I was pretty drowsy when I posted the messages I did, so I apologise if they appeared to be slightly unclear..
I thought it might be worth mentioning to you, I know of someone (a man) he's a distant relative who was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder afew years ago. Which is strange in a way because from what I understand, most people with borderline personality disorder, or a high percentage are young women, 75% or something like that but i guess he falls into the 25% of the 10-14% of the popluation it effects (in rough figures)
With regards to coming in contact with the police, he did. But not like how you would expect one to become in contact with the police for commiting a crime and being arrested and possily going to jail etc. What happened was he was constantly making suicide threats, or to the effect of that eg phoning people and going into detail of how he's basically had enough of life, he'd done all he wanted to do and now it was time to end it. He would go into detail about how he wanted to end it. This came to a head one night in London where he was found on Tower Bridge, kind of prepared to jump into the river Thames. The police were called because of the nature of his behaviour surrounding his actions of what he was claiming he was going to do, or what it looked like he was going to attempt.
He did not go to jail and was not arrested. The police involved however refered him to a London hospital for 28 days where he was assessed by a team of mental health specialists and was diagnosed as having borderline personality disorder. You see, I don't think at all that what you say on here, or more to the point if I was to suggest you should go to jail for posting something on here, then I would back it up with evidence etc and believe me you would know that I was suggesting I was saying you should go to jail! The traits that I see when you speak about suicide are identical to that of the man I knew (distant relative) who was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder.
I understand you must be under alot of stress when you write what you do, at the end of one of the messages you wrote above, you said "Kill me people, kill me!"
Killing or killing oneself can be viewed as murder. Murdering oneself or murdering someone else. I'm not saying you're a murderer! But you understand the nature of suicide is killing and killing can be viewed as murder, murder is illegal for obvious reasons and carries punishments of manslaughter, life in prisionment and in certain areas of the world the death sentance. Then theres insanity at the time of the murder.
What I'm getting at is, when you're thinking about suicide, you're not well. So suffering the effects of an illness which brings out thoughts and feelings that you want to end your life. The answer to this, is not to end your life. Its simply to treat the illness so that you do not feel this way and so the illness and pain is relieved, you are then in effect made well. Back to the man I knew, who took things to the edge and also before had an incident on a bridge above some train tracks. When he was finally diagnosed and correctly treated, his symptoms, including that of the thoughts which led him to such extreams have not happened since...
>Also, I have insight, I really do. I suspected I had a borderline personality even before my p-doc mentioned it.
I believe you're a very intelligent young lady. You knew you had borderline personality disorder even before the experts did which they later confirmed! :-) Don't look at this negatively. Look at this positively. You was able to find the problem yourself with your insight and knowledge which then leads to the solution which is knowing that the problem can be effectively treated. Think of it like this, when you stand to cross the road and a car rushes past you, your immidate instinct is to avoid the car ~ to protect yourself and avoid death. Think of this in the aspect of your thinking, deep down you know that you want to avoid death at all costs as its built into us that this is what we do. Be honest with the doctors, don't try to manipulate them to give them the answers you feel they want to keep them happy. Rather take advantage of the treatment options and use/work with them honestly which will then give you the ultimate outcome of having as close to 100% control over your life. In turn your grow 10 fold in confidence and achive things beyond your wildest dreams.
A suggestion, instead of focusing on death as I feel at your age which is the same as mine if your 23, you have a whole life ahead of you with so much to offer and focusing on death, spiritually must be bad for the soul. Instead of fousing on death, use your intelligence, insight and knowledge to read up as much as possible about how to effectively treat yourself to live in comfort rather than pain.
Your current doctor (the man) uses medications, I think he's doing the right thing, the medications will dramically help you to stop having these thoughts which in turn could lead to actions. Your old doctor worked more with talking. You feel your missing out on something there. The answer is a combination. If you have a psychiatirst which has many years prescibing drugs which will dramatically help you, think this will be to your advantage in your overall outcome. Read up on the various medications being used, check out the side effects, how effective they are, what willl they help you with eg, avoidance, anxiety depression, borderline issues, mood stability, possible psychotic thoughts. Antidepressants, mood stabilisers, antiepileptics, antipsychotics, benzodiaepines. Suggest them to your doctor, work with him.
Take advantage of Dialectical Behavior Therapy and CBT.
With all that energy spent in your spare time eliminating your pain, your find there will be no time left in the day for it to breed.
I hope this makes sense.
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 12:46:59
In reply to uncivil..uncivil... » Deneb, posted by justyourlaugh on October 14, 2005, at 1:07:32
> lable(bpb)......is not death(doom).
> deneb has shown ..ununderstanding..
> several times i have expresed my hurt in her group "labeling"..polically incorrect..many times over...
>I'm sorry jyl. I didn't mean that all people with BPD are doomed. I only meant that *I* am doomed...not everyone.
Also, I do understand cutting, I did it myself.
Deneb
Posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 12:55:59
In reply to Re: You DON'T Need to understand triggers » Deneb, posted by AuntieMel on October 14, 2005, at 9:11:56
> Is it really important to understand *why* people are triggered?
I just thought that maybe if I understood *why* that I would be better able to predict which posts need a trigger warning. Sometimes it is a surprise to me which posts trigger people and I don't understand why.
I need some concrete rules about triggers then...
Tell me which subjects need a trigger warning. It just confuses me. In a thread above a poster writes about suicide and yet that didn't need a trigger. Why are so many of my posts a trigger to people?>I need to respect that.
I do respect the need for triggers, but I would like to be better able to predict which topics need trigger warnings. Sometimes it feels like it is random you know...I'm confused about why some topics mention certain things and are not triggering and yet other topics are triggering.
Deneb
Posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 13:03:10
In reply to suicide is something most of us fight off**TRIGGER, posted by holymama on October 14, 2005, at 9:59:56
> Suicidal feelings are something I BATTLE, not embrace.
I battle them too. :-(
I often write that I don't want to kill myself, but sometimes I change my mind. I don't understand why people think I'm making light of suicide. I really suffer. I suffer so much at times that I do think suicide is the way out. Maybe I just don't know how to express my suffering.Deneb
Posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 13:23:32
In reply to Re: suicide is something most of us fight off**TRIGGER » holymama, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 13:03:10
Hi people
I think I lost it a little last night. I just want to say that I'm sorry. I don't want to hurt people here, but I always seem to anyway. I'm sorry for the, "Kill me" bit. I was feeling pretty bad and I just wanted to be dead.
Tell me what I can do to make this better. I'm sorry if I'm draining to the community.
Deneb
Posted by Tamar on October 14, 2005, at 13:42:30
In reply to Re: suicide is something most of us fight off**TRIGGER » holymama, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 13:03:10
Hi Deneb,
I can see why you want to understand what might be triggering. And that sometimes it’s hard to know how people might respond to what you say.
Here’s what I think: I’ve read a lot of posts here in which people have said they feel suicidal. And in most cases people post (a) the reasons they feel suicidal and (b) that they don’t want to feel suicidal.
You said:
"Maybe I just don't know how to express my suffering."
It does seem to me that you don’t often say *why* you are thinking about death. And you also don’t often say that you don’t want to feel suicidal. So I think it could be hard for people to understand the depths of your suffering. Without additional information (like what has prompted your suicidal feelings) perhaps people could interpret your posts as taking suicide lightly.Maybe some people could think you don’t take suicide seriously. If they thought you were being serious they could perhaps feel compassion for you despite the personal pain the subject triggers for them. But maybe it’s harder for people for feel compassion if they don’t understand your suicidal feelings.
I happen to believe that you do take suicide seriously. And I suspect that you don’t always know why you feel suicidal. I suspect that sometimes you just feel you want to die without having any particular reason. Of course, I could be wrong… I don’t want to jump to conclusions or tell you how you feel or anything like that. Please feel free to correct me if I’ve misunderstood you.
I think it’s important for you to be able to talk about your suicidal feelings here. There are people here who seem to understand and who want to help as much as they can. There might always be some people (here and in real life) who don’t understand, perhaps because their own pain gets in the way of the possibility of feeling compassion for you. If there are any people in that situation I guess the best thing we can do is to feel compassion for them...
But I think the way you’re talking about it now is different from when you first came to Babble and I think you’ve shown that you do care how other people feel about your posts. That’s surely a good thing.
Tamar
Posted by holymama on October 14, 2005, at 14:11:45
In reply to Re: suicide is something most of us fight off**TRIGGER » holymama, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 13:03:10
> Suicidal feelings are something I BATTLE, not embrace.
I battle them too. :-(
I often write that I don't want to kill myself, but sometimes I change my mind. I don't understand why people think I'm making light of suicide. I really suffer. I suffer so much at times that I do think suicide is the way out. Maybe I just don't know how to express my suffering.
Deneb, I know you battle those feelings. That's why you write so much about it. I think you are in a constant battle between liking the idea and wanting to be saved from it. I think you have a lot of confusion about it.I guess the reason why I said you were taking suicide lightly is because you seem to be asking what the big deal is about it. You often ask why it bothers people, and when you ask that question, it makes me think that you don't understand the depth of emotion if brings up in people.
By the way, I don't think you are too draining on this community. I think you are one of the most interesting people here. I feel like you post your real feelings here and I think that's a great asset that you have. If you bottled things up, you might not feel like 'such a drain', but you wouldn't get any help from people either.
Sometimes I think you take peoples' comments too harshly. By the end of your posts you are often apologizing to people. I think that when people write to you, whether they are gentle or harsh, they are trying in their different ways to help you. Some might try by calming you down and making you feel good, others might try the tough love approach to get through to you. I think everyone here is really trying to reach you one way or another. Sometimes things we don't want to hear are what we need to hear in order to heal.
~Autumn~
Posted by AuntieMel on October 14, 2005, at 14:42:11
In reply to Apology to everyone, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 13:23:32
Note: I'm only speaking for myself here.
Think for a minute. Have you ever had someone you care about hurt you? And then had that person apologize for hurting you?
You accept the apology and things return to normal, but then in a couple of days that person repeats the hurtful behavior, following it with an apology after finding out you are hurt (again.)
This goes on several more times. Each time the apology sounds less sincere to you, doesn't it? And each time you are warier that the behavior will repeat, aren't you?
That is how I feel when I keep reading these posts.
You say you want to make it up to people? There is one way to do it: Get The Help You Need!!!!!
Work on getting better. There are ways. Nikki has offered several times to help you find the way, and she has loads of experience with BPD. Use these resources and build yourself a life to be proud of!
That more than anything will make things better.
Posted by JenStar on October 14, 2005, at 16:02:40
In reply to Re: You DON'T Need to understand triggers » AuntieMel, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 12:55:59
Deneb,
I'm glad you noticed that some people's threads, while they contain difficult content and worries about suicide or grave illnesses, don't trigger, anger or irritate others. Instead, those posts mostly garner loving support and kind words for the person who wrote it.Something about your posts must be different, insofar as your posts often seem to elicit different responses --- right?
The posters who receive the kind, loving and caring responses -- not angry ones -- are trusted here. Something about the way they write their own posts and responses to others' posts makes them trusted and valued members here.
If you want the truth, I personally feel that your posts often sound manipulative and deliberate in your use of triggering words and phrases. Sometimes it SEEMS to me that a post written in the style you write MIGHT have been written to "test" or "push buttons."
Now I know that might be greatly offensive to you...but you did ask. And honestly, that's what I think many times when I read your posts. (And part of me thinks you already know it, too, and consequently the fact that you're asking once again makes me think you're TRYING to trigger people here!)
Deneb, you've asked so many times why suicide is triggering. If you don't get it, just accept it. If you continue to post things that people have told you hurts/frustrates/saddens them, don't be surprised when you get angry responses, or if people just sort of drift away from you and stop responding to your posts at all. (Is this an experiment for you...to see how everyone reacts?)
If you're really struggling with this, I really suggest staying with you p-doc. He may not be perfect, but he's s start, and hopefully he can help you with techniques to become more socially adept, studious and able to handle stress management.
good luck. take care.
JenStarIf
Posted by crazy teresa on October 14, 2005, at 16:26:00
In reply to Re: You DON'T Need to understand triggers » Deneb, posted by JenStar on October 14, 2005, at 16:02:40
Posted by Nickengland on October 14, 2005, at 16:30:20
In reply to Re: You DON'T Need to understand triggers » AuntieMel, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 12:55:59
Hello Deneb
>I just thought that maybe if I understood *why* that I would be better able to predict which posts need a trigger warning. Sometimes it is a surprise to me which posts trigger people and I don't understand why.
>I need some concrete rules about triggers then...
>Tell me which subjects need a trigger warning. It just confuses me. In a thread above a poster writes about suicide and yet that didn't need a trigger. Why are so many of my posts a trigger to people?Perhaps one step at a time will help ease the confusion, as in at this stage perhaps it is not important as to why others are triggered by your posts. (You could always ask the specific poster who you feel you have triggered to find out why)
Maybe, the triggering, in this case begins with your *triggers* What is triggering you to write the things you do which then goes on to trigger others?
I think that perhaps you are the one who is triggered, you have the issue of a trigger which is causing you to write the things you do.
The way to resolve this will be to look at your triggers and the reasoning behind why you are triggered in the first place.
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 16:48:42
In reply to Re: You DON'T Need to understand triggers » Deneb, posted by JenStar on October 14, 2005, at 16:02:40
JenStar, I just know that sometimes I get extremely upset. I think you may be right, I think I may be manipulative. But I also think that my manipulation is not only dangerous to others, but it is dangerous to me. I'm afraid I'm going to die and people will cease to hear my calls for help. I hate feeling the way I do. I really am depressed right now if that means anything to you.
What will it take for you to believe me? If I were really going to be manipulative I would say that I was going to down a giant bottle of ____ right now and hope that Dr. Bob calls the police before I die. I would be manipulative yes, but there is also a real chance of my dying.
And after I die, people will ask themselves why they didn't believe me when I asked for help.
Yes, there may be an element of manipulation (but I never want to harm others), but there is also the chance of real death. Soon I know that my cries for wolf will go unnoticed and I really will die.
"Premature death among patients with BPD may be due to the increased risk of suicide in this population. Approximately 70-75% of patients with BPD have a history of at least one deliberate act of self-harm. According to Linehan et al, the **mean estimated rate of completed suicides 9%.**"
Posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 17:01:00
In reply to Re: You DON'T Need to understand triggers » JenStar, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 16:48:42
I missed another midterm today and I slept all day instead.
People seem angry at me. I feel really bad right now. No one believes my suffering. I don't see a future anymore and people don't believe me.
I want support to live. I don't want to die.
Deneb
Posted by gardenergirl on October 14, 2005, at 17:07:09
In reply to I'm really struggling here, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 17:01:00
It sounds like it's pretty bad. I don't know that an internet support group is the best resource for someone who is in imminent danger. Help from someone in person is much more likely to be effective.
Please call your pdoc and/or go to the hospital. Clearly your depression and thoughts are interfering with your ability to function in daily life if you are skipping important school obligations. That must be an awful feeling.
Please take care of yourself.
gg
Posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 18:45:17
In reply to I'm really struggling here, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 17:01:00
I'm trying to ask for help in the right way.
I can't see a future for myself. Please help me. If I don't feel better I'm going to kill myself.
I'm a real person. I'm in real life. When I get upset here, I get upset in real life. When bad things happen here, I feel bad and sometimes I want to kill myself. If I disappear, that means I probably dead.
Deneb
Posted by holymama on October 14, 2005, at 19:07:59
In reply to Please help me see a future, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 18:45:17
Sweetie,
Go to a hospital. You need to get some help and get back on your feet.
I'll tell you something. You remind me of myself early in my twenties. This is when I didn't understand myself yet and my incomprehensible tortured mind. As I've gotten older I have come to understand myself better and get control of my mind -- WITH the help of medication and therapy. Lots of both. But it took me a few years to figure this stuff out.You are just at the beginning of this journey. There is a risk of suicide with your disorder and you need to get help SO THAT YOU CAN SURVIVE LONG ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO HELP YOURSELF.
If you are smart, you will start getting help when or before you need it. Only over time will you learn how to manage this yourself. You WILL learn, but now is the time to get help from others so they can teach you how to do it. THIS WILL GET EASIER. I PROMISE.
I think you've said you've been in a hospital before -- (or did I make that up???) From my experience, a 'private' hospital was a far better experience than a plain old ER public hospital. (I'm sure people have had different experiences). Can you call your insurance and find out what hospitals they will cover for inpatient psychiatric hospitalizations?
I hate the idea that I'm pushing a hospital stay on you, but I think you need more help than you are getting.
take care of your precious self.
~Autumn~
Posted by alexandra_k on October 14, 2005, at 19:12:59
In reply to Need to understand triggers and suicide, posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 20:42:10
> What I don't understand it why you insist on threatening suicide every other week.
> …This is something a young child would say because she didn't get her way. I don't think you want to die, you're throwing a temper tantraum!
I can see that people are finding this frustrating but I have to say that ‘threatening suicide’ and ‘throwing a temper tantraum’ probably aren’t terribly helpful ways of looking at it…
(How would you feel if you expressed suicidal ideation and was told you were ‘threatening suicide’ or ‘throwing a temper tantraum’? Would that help you or hurt you? If you come to see your own behaviour in that way… Would you feel able to live with yourself?
> Im sorry if I sound insensitive but I feel like you have had so many explanations given to you. I give up, Im tired and I feel I already gave you an explanation as well.
(((Rainbow))) I’m sorry, I know this is a hard issue for you. It might help to think that sometimes when one is in a really bad space certain information can get forgotten. As a different example… Imagine that you are worried that someone doesn’t like you. They tell you (a couple times) that they do. But then you get depressed… And so… What they said before… Well… It kind of needs to be said again because it has been forgotten. I know that for me, my memory of events / things people have said / alternative ways of looking at the situation is very mood dependent. When my emotions get very intense… I can forget all kinds of stuff.> It was just a favor, just a friendly request for a trigger without making a big deal of it.
I know this is hard for you… Maybe you had best avoid posts from Deneb that have a trigger warning on them and / or mention suicide in the subject header?
> I recall one post where you thought it was funny listening to the way some people tried to kill themselves. thats all.
Yeah. And joking about death isn’t allowed here. Deneb was warned for that – and she hasn’t done it again. I think… Maybe when she mentiones the topic now people tend to think of that other thread? And it calls some of those issues back for people.> This behaviour will usually be the result of a deeply held belief - often to do with the way that they view the world. Their belief in this world view is so strong that any evidence to the contrary is discounted’ (quote)
Yuk yuk yuk… I don’t think it is a matter of logic. More a matter of having the ablility to retain ones faith… That one is okay, that other people do care, that one does have a future etc. It seems to me that it is when those things (which just are a matter of faith and are inferences beyond all available evidence) which constitute something of a world view. And it is that… That can radically alter when one feels under extreme emotional stress. Things start seeming black… Very black indeed.
> And the issue about talking about suicide and how it affects others is an issue of courtesy. We have rules here at Babble to help us extend courtesy to one another. When there isn't a rule, we try to be sensitive to others' feelings, even if they do not match ours. Sometimes that means we can't talk about certain subjects in the manner we would like to here.
???
Do you really think this is so? I don’t hold back… And I have had some people express that they have problems with some of my posts. They don’t like some of them. They set off certain feelings in some other posters etc. And the situation seems to me… To be a little like Lou. Posters want a certain poster to refrain from making certain kinds of posts. They start out expressing their feelings on the issue… And then (it seems to me) they don’t really hold back with respect to whatever it takes to get that poster to fall into line. But that certain poster whose posts are being called into question… Well… So long as their posts are in line with the civility guidelines then I guess they have themselves something of a dilemma… How much to shut up because that is what other people need from you? How much to continue writing because that is what you need for you? Decisions… And yes, there are consequences… And posters here can be quite harsh with their consequences… Mostly (it seems to me because they don’t understand why it is that the person needs to vent / express themselves). I continued doing what I needed to do… So did Lou… I wonder what Deneb would do. What would you do if you were Deneb?
>Is it really important to understand *why* people are triggered? Or is it only important to know that they are? There are many, many things in life that upset others. From small to large. Chewing and talking at the same time. Cursing. and so on. I don't need to understand *why* they upset people, only that they do. And I need to respect that.
Okay. But those examples… May be a little different to what is going on here. Most people don’t get so very attached to chewing and talking at the same time that they really feel they must continue despite how other people feel about it. But sometimes… Well… What if I needed to sing (because I got something from being able to express myself in that manner) but you guys all wanted me to stop singing because you thought I sounded terrible? Am I obliged to stop because of your needs? Isn’t it possible that I could understand what your needs are and see how important they are to you and yet still act on my needs? Don’t we all do this at times? Or perhaps we should live our lives trying to make other people happy by doing what they want and never doing anything that they may find offensive or distasteful or triggering or whatever. I don’t know that I could live my life like that even if I tried…
>Think for a minute. Have you ever had someone you care about hurt you? And then had that person apologize for hurting you?You accept the apology and things return to normal, but then in a couple of days that person repeats the hurtful behavior, following it with an apology after finding out you are hurt (again.) This goes on several more times. Each time the apology sounds less sincere to you, doesn't it? And each time you are warier that the behavior will repeat, aren't you? That is how I feel when I keep reading these posts.
I don’t see… That Deneb did anything wrong. The topic was indicated in the subject header. I would have thought that by now people would have learned whether or not to avoid her posts where she is going to be talking about suicide.
> If you want the truth, I personally feel that your posts often sound manipulative and deliberate in your use of triggering words and phrases. Sometimes it SEEMS to me that a post written in the style you write MIGHT have been written to "test" or "push buttons."
That might not be a very helpful way of looking at it… If you think of it as expressive then yes, the intention is to evoke an emotional response (but this isn’t considered manipulative in expressive writing – or if it is ‘manipulative’ loses its judgemental connotations and we understand why it is used). When people respond by saying you are ‘joking’ or aren’t serious because you ‘threaten every other week’ then one attempts to convey the feelings all the more strongly and an unhelpful (and possibly dangerous) cycle is starting…
> part of me thinks you already know it, too, and consequently the fact that you're asking once again makes me think you're TRYING to trigger people here!
Why would someone do this? Why would you do this? (I find it easier to think about things by imagining why I might be led to do similar things). Maybe… Deneb is looking for a little understanding and sympathy for being in such a horrible emotional state.
> Deneb, you've asked so many times why suicide is triggering. If you don't get it, just accept it. If you continue to post things that people have told you hurts/frustrates/saddens them, don't be surprised when you get angry responses, or if people just sort of drift away from you and stop responding to your posts at all.
Yes, some Babblers get ostracised… Lou… I wonder what is going to happen here… She posts helpful posts. She posts happy posts. Are we all going to forget about those when times get tough?
> I need some concrete rules about triggers then...
Tell me which subjects need a trigger warning. It just confuses me.
I’d suggest self injury, suicide, anyone else have any thoughts?
>In a thread above a poster writes about suicide and yet that didn't need a trigger. Why are so many of my posts a trigger to people?
I think… Because you talk about things that are socially taboo in an irreverant way. And that makes people feel nervous… You ask questions that aren’t supposed to be asked… They are just supposed to me magically understood (or I suppose the thought is that you are just supposed to shut up about them). But I used to ask… And I still do… And I’ve worked out some kinds of answers on some of that. So I like your questions. Also… Because you do write to express your emotion. And so the point of expressive writing like that is for other people to understand how you feel. And when other people read that what it does is evoke intense emotions in them. And so people read your posts and catch something of your feeling… Which, as you have noticed, isnt’ terribly pleasant. That’s why trigger warnings are important (or subject headers that indicate). Because I know that when I am in a good place I can feel some of that feeling – but not become lost in it myself. When I am in a bad place I need to leave your posts till I’m feeling a little better because otherwise I am in danger of being lost in the bad feelings myself.
And I think… That that is where the ‘manipulative’ thing comes in. People feel like you are manipulating their emotional responses. Like you are trying to make them feel bad. But its not about that people… Its about obtaining empathy and understanding. And when we are in a bad place… Isn’t that what all of us want???
> I often write that I don't want to kill myself, but sometimes I change my mind. I don't understand why people think I'm making light of suicide.
I think people are still a little hung up on the other post where you were warned about joking about death.
>I really suffer. I suffer so much at times that I do think suicide is the way out. Maybe I just don't know how to express my suffering.
Yeah. In combination with others not knowing how to take your writing about your suffering. Not knowing how to take the intention of your writing.It can lead to unhelpful cicles at times.
I’m sorry :-(
Posted by ClearSkies on October 14, 2005, at 19:19:30
In reply to I'm really struggling here, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 17:01:00
And get the help you need IRL, Deneb. An internet site can only be of limited help. You sound like you are in distress.
ClearSkies
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