Posted by alexandra_k on October 14, 2005, at 19:12:59
In reply to Need to understand triggers and suicide, posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 20:42:10
> What I don't understand it why you insist on threatening suicide every other week.
> …This is something a young child would say because she didn't get her way. I don't think you want to die, you're throwing a temper tantraum!
I can see that people are finding this frustrating but I have to say that ‘threatening suicide’ and ‘throwing a temper tantraum’ probably aren’t terribly helpful ways of looking at it…
(How would you feel if you expressed suicidal ideation and was told you were ‘threatening suicide’ or ‘throwing a temper tantraum’? Would that help you or hurt you? If you come to see your own behaviour in that way… Would you feel able to live with yourself?
> Im sorry if I sound insensitive but I feel like you have had so many explanations given to you. I give up, Im tired and I feel I already gave you an explanation as well.
(((Rainbow))) I’m sorry, I know this is a hard issue for you. It might help to think that sometimes when one is in a really bad space certain information can get forgotten. As a different example… Imagine that you are worried that someone doesn’t like you. They tell you (a couple times) that they do. But then you get depressed… And so… What they said before… Well… It kind of needs to be said again because it has been forgotten. I know that for me, my memory of events / things people have said / alternative ways of looking at the situation is very mood dependent. When my emotions get very intense… I can forget all kinds of stuff.> It was just a favor, just a friendly request for a trigger without making a big deal of it.
I know this is hard for you… Maybe you had best avoid posts from Deneb that have a trigger warning on them and / or mention suicide in the subject header?
> I recall one post where you thought it was funny listening to the way some people tried to kill themselves. thats all.
Yeah. And joking about death isn’t allowed here. Deneb was warned for that – and she hasn’t done it again. I think… Maybe when she mentiones the topic now people tend to think of that other thread? And it calls some of those issues back for people.> This behaviour will usually be the result of a deeply held belief - often to do with the way that they view the world. Their belief in this world view is so strong that any evidence to the contrary is discounted’ (quote)
Yuk yuk yuk… I don’t think it is a matter of logic. More a matter of having the ablility to retain ones faith… That one is okay, that other people do care, that one does have a future etc. It seems to me that it is when those things (which just are a matter of faith and are inferences beyond all available evidence) which constitute something of a world view. And it is that… That can radically alter when one feels under extreme emotional stress. Things start seeming black… Very black indeed.
> And the issue about talking about suicide and how it affects others is an issue of courtesy. We have rules here at Babble to help us extend courtesy to one another. When there isn't a rule, we try to be sensitive to others' feelings, even if they do not match ours. Sometimes that means we can't talk about certain subjects in the manner we would like to here.
???
Do you really think this is so? I don’t hold back… And I have had some people express that they have problems with some of my posts. They don’t like some of them. They set off certain feelings in some other posters etc. And the situation seems to me… To be a little like Lou. Posters want a certain poster to refrain from making certain kinds of posts. They start out expressing their feelings on the issue… And then (it seems to me) they don’t really hold back with respect to whatever it takes to get that poster to fall into line. But that certain poster whose posts are being called into question… Well… So long as their posts are in line with the civility guidelines then I guess they have themselves something of a dilemma… How much to shut up because that is what other people need from you? How much to continue writing because that is what you need for you? Decisions… And yes, there are consequences… And posters here can be quite harsh with their consequences… Mostly (it seems to me because they don’t understand why it is that the person needs to vent / express themselves). I continued doing what I needed to do… So did Lou… I wonder what Deneb would do. What would you do if you were Deneb?
>Is it really important to understand *why* people are triggered? Or is it only important to know that they are? There are many, many things in life that upset others. From small to large. Chewing and talking at the same time. Cursing. and so on. I don't need to understand *why* they upset people, only that they do. And I need to respect that.
Okay. But those examples… May be a little different to what is going on here. Most people don’t get so very attached to chewing and talking at the same time that they really feel they must continue despite how other people feel about it. But sometimes… Well… What if I needed to sing (because I got something from being able to express myself in that manner) but you guys all wanted me to stop singing because you thought I sounded terrible? Am I obliged to stop because of your needs? Isn’t it possible that I could understand what your needs are and see how important they are to you and yet still act on my needs? Don’t we all do this at times? Or perhaps we should live our lives trying to make other people happy by doing what they want and never doing anything that they may find offensive or distasteful or triggering or whatever. I don’t know that I could live my life like that even if I tried…
>Think for a minute. Have you ever had someone you care about hurt you? And then had that person apologize for hurting you?You accept the apology and things return to normal, but then in a couple of days that person repeats the hurtful behavior, following it with an apology after finding out you are hurt (again.) This goes on several more times. Each time the apology sounds less sincere to you, doesn't it? And each time you are warier that the behavior will repeat, aren't you? That is how I feel when I keep reading these posts.
I don’t see… That Deneb did anything wrong. The topic was indicated in the subject header. I would have thought that by now people would have learned whether or not to avoid her posts where she is going to be talking about suicide.
> If you want the truth, I personally feel that your posts often sound manipulative and deliberate in your use of triggering words and phrases. Sometimes it SEEMS to me that a post written in the style you write MIGHT have been written to "test" or "push buttons."
That might not be a very helpful way of looking at it… If you think of it as expressive then yes, the intention is to evoke an emotional response (but this isn’t considered manipulative in expressive writing – or if it is ‘manipulative’ loses its judgemental connotations and we understand why it is used). When people respond by saying you are ‘joking’ or aren’t serious because you ‘threaten every other week’ then one attempts to convey the feelings all the more strongly and an unhelpful (and possibly dangerous) cycle is starting…
> part of me thinks you already know it, too, and consequently the fact that you're asking once again makes me think you're TRYING to trigger people here!
Why would someone do this? Why would you do this? (I find it easier to think about things by imagining why I might be led to do similar things). Maybe… Deneb is looking for a little understanding and sympathy for being in such a horrible emotional state.
> Deneb, you've asked so many times why suicide is triggering. If you don't get it, just accept it. If you continue to post things that people have told you hurts/frustrates/saddens them, don't be surprised when you get angry responses, or if people just sort of drift away from you and stop responding to your posts at all.
Yes, some Babblers get ostracised… Lou… I wonder what is going to happen here… She posts helpful posts. She posts happy posts. Are we all going to forget about those when times get tough?
> I need some concrete rules about triggers then...
Tell me which subjects need a trigger warning. It just confuses me.
I’d suggest self injury, suicide, anyone else have any thoughts?
>In a thread above a poster writes about suicide and yet that didn't need a trigger. Why are so many of my posts a trigger to people?
I think… Because you talk about things that are socially taboo in an irreverant way. And that makes people feel nervous… You ask questions that aren’t supposed to be asked… They are just supposed to me magically understood (or I suppose the thought is that you are just supposed to shut up about them). But I used to ask… And I still do… And I’ve worked out some kinds of answers on some of that. So I like your questions. Also… Because you do write to express your emotion. And so the point of expressive writing like that is for other people to understand how you feel. And when other people read that what it does is evoke intense emotions in them. And so people read your posts and catch something of your feeling… Which, as you have noticed, isnt’ terribly pleasant. That’s why trigger warnings are important (or subject headers that indicate). Because I know that when I am in a good place I can feel some of that feeling – but not become lost in it myself. When I am in a bad place I need to leave your posts till I’m feeling a little better because otherwise I am in danger of being lost in the bad feelings myself.
And I think… That that is where the ‘manipulative’ thing comes in. People feel like you are manipulating their emotional responses. Like you are trying to make them feel bad. But its not about that people… Its about obtaining empathy and understanding. And when we are in a bad place… Isn’t that what all of us want???
> I often write that I don't want to kill myself, but sometimes I change my mind. I don't understand why people think I'm making light of suicide.
I think people are still a little hung up on the other post where you were warned about joking about death.
>I really suffer. I suffer so much at times that I do think suicide is the way out. Maybe I just don't know how to express my suffering.
Yeah. In combination with others not knowing how to take your writing about your suffering. Not knowing how to take the intention of your writing.It can lead to unhelpful cicles at times.
I’m sorry :-(
poster:alexandra_k
thread:566599
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20051007/msgs/566958.html