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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by johnnyj on July 6, 2006, at 14:48:57
In reply to Re: Hey Jules , johnny, cashy, jenico..., posted by musky on July 5, 2006, at 23:42:16
Hey Musky:
I know exactly what you mean about finding the opposite sex too attractive. I am relieved to hear someone else has had those feelings as I was wondering if something was wrong with me. At other times I don't find anyone attractive so that is strange too. I guess it is just the ups and downs.
Last night I had the best sleep since going off. I don't know why but I slept about 8 hours and only woke up once. When I had to get up I just wanted to sleep more and hadn't felt that is such a long time. I even didn't take advil last night. I didn't really feel too down today either and I wasn't flying off the handle. Again, I expect ups and downs so I am just taking one day at a time.
I really feel my body will require a lot of time to adjust. Cheers.
johnnyj
Posted by johnnyj on July 6, 2006, at 14:54:09
In reply to Re: Hey Jules , johnny, cashy, jenico..., posted by jules354 on July 6, 2006, at 12:57:45
Hello Jules:
Thank you for the very kind sleep information. I will check a few of those out. The Chamomille was definately not for me. I contiue to have ups and downs but I am hoping for more ups. Last night was good so I am hoping I can have more of that tonight.
I walked at noon today and get really tired quick. That is why I think my body just needs a lot of time to heal. I so want to exercise hard but I just can't handle it right now. Walking and light garden is about all I can do and that is ok.
I hope you are doing well. Balance is the key.
Cheers
johnnyj
Posted by musky on July 6, 2006, at 22:56:06
In reply to Re: Hey Jules , johnny, cashy, jenico..., posted by jules354 on July 6, 2006, at 12:57:45
>
Hi jules
yes its been tough.. and I think it takes time and we just have to be patient... its hard sometimes when you are feeling crappy. but at least I have some times where its not too bad.
Funny you should mention the valerian being popular with cats! When I tried it quite some time ago before any of my experience with meds I found that my bottle above my bed was always knocked over.. i couldnt figure out why,, then I realized later it was one of my cats always sooo attracted to this stuff!!)(lol)
Well im still going for my acupuncture for the anxiety part.. mood still not normalized and thought processes all mixed up... sleep is getting there but I still have early wakings..
musky
hi johnnyj and musky,
>
> i'm so sorry to hear things are still really tough. i'm still doing pretty well although once in a while my sleep is crappy and i still feel like i'm "normalizing." the possibility of permanent damage is really scary - i wish more research were being done!
>
> johnnyj, i think it's normal that you might not react to herbs differently than others. they're like any medicine that way; often have to use trial and error. there's a really great book called The New Holistic Herbal by David Hoffman. I've used it a lot over the years and it's helpful bcs he offers lots of different options bcs different herbs work for different people.
>
> I looked up insomnia and Hoffman recommends the following herbs; they can often be found in health teas or you can buy them bulk at a health food store:
>
> California Poppy
> Hops
> Jamaican Dogwood
> Passion Flower
> Valerian (quite powerful in my experience and for some reason popular with cats!)
> Jamaican Dogwood
> Lime Blossom
> Red Clover
>
> HOpe this helps.
>
> take care,
> jules
Posted by musky on July 6, 2006, at 23:02:18
In reply to Re: Hey Jules , johnny, cashy, jenico..., posted by johnnyj on July 6, 2006, at 14:48:57
>Hey johnnyj:
so glad to hear that you FINALLY slept .. good for you!!! I knew that in time this would start to improve.. its the body you know... so that you tell you that yes it will balance again.. maybe not all at once but slowly...
I sleep about 6hrs , wish it was at least 8hrs . thats when i feel the best.. but at least im not having such vivid dreams anymore ...or very little times now... got sudden jerking the other nite while falling alsleep but otherwise havent had this problem lately since being off.
Im still anxious .. but today wasnt as cloudy brain... so this is up and down... im still restless alot... but exercise is helping at least curb that for a bit...
I just want my emotions back and not be stuck in this strange state forever (in fear of there really was brain damage!)must not think this way or i will get more anxious.
good to hear that your depressed mood is better today tooHang in there
MuskyHey Musky:
>
> I know exactly what you mean about finding the opposite sex too attractive. I am relieved to hear someone else has had those feelings as I was wondering if something was wrong with me. At other times I don't find anyone attractive so that is strange too. I guess it is just the ups and downs.
>
> Last night I had the best sleep since going off. I don't know why but I slept about 8 hours and only woke up once. When I had to get up I just wanted to sleep more and hadn't felt that is such a long time. I even didn't take advil last night. I didn't really feel too down today either and I wasn't flying off the handle. Again, I expect ups and downs so I am just taking one day at a time.
>
> I really feel my body will require a lot of time to adjust. Cheers.
>
> johnnyj
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 7, 2006, at 3:03:54
In reply to Re: Hey Jules , johnny, cashy, jenico..., posted by jules354 on July 6, 2006, at 12:57:45
> there's a really great book called The New Holistic Herbal by David Hoffman. I've used it a lot over the years and it's helpful bcs he offers lots of different options bcs different herbs work for different people.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book, movie, or music without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by jeninco on July 8, 2006, at 20:56:23
In reply to Re: Hey Jules , johnny, cashy, jenico..., posted by musky on July 6, 2006, at 23:02:18
I'm down to 1/8 of a 15 mg pill every two days. And feeling completely crappy as a result-why? Lack of sleep. This is the reason I was on the medication to begin with, so probably no surprise that the problems are back. Dramamine is no longer making me drowsy. I took ambien two days in a row and felt soooo crappy, that I stayed up most of last night and finally crashed around 6, and slept off and on until 10:30. Great! Fractured sleep, and sleeping in late. :( The nauseation is up too, that, and I keep getting waves of a hot flash-like feeling (and I'm only 33). I'll still take this over what I felt when I stopped cold turkey but the sucking is beginning. Also, I felt anxious and shakey today but hard to tell if it's lack of sleep or what.
Posted by cashy72 on July 10, 2006, at 8:32:59
In reply to Re: Hey Jules , johnny, cashy, jenico..., posted by jeninco on July 8, 2006, at 20:56:23
Hey there guys, been away on holiday in the sunshine for a while,no work, and it's been great, back at work now unfortunately!:(
How's it going for you all? I've been off the remeron now for 8 or 9 weeks, and it's getting easier... Still light sleep, and morning anxiety, but i'm sure with every week that passes, i'm getting back on track.. fingers crossed.
Hope your all ok..
Hang in there.
CASHY72
Posted by johnnyj on July 10, 2006, at 19:48:26
In reply to Re: Hey Jules , johnny, cashy, jenico..., posted by jeninco on July 8, 2006, at 20:56:23
Jenico,
I am sorry you are having a difficult time. I don't know about the every other day method. I think weaning down to a dose every day and then stopping seems to be a better strategy but I am not sure.
For me, week 4 and 5 were the worst. I had some very rough nights. Personally, nausea is to be expected as that was/is one of my worst symptoms. I used dramamine for that and it helped. I think some of the shakiness and anxiety is from not sleeping and the rest from the withdrawal. Trying to let the anxiety slide through you and not dwelling on it helps. I will say a prayer for you tonight. take care.
johnnyj
Posted by johnnyj on July 10, 2006, at 19:59:03
In reply to Re: Hey Jules , johnny, cashy, jenico..., posted by cashy72 on July 10, 2006, at 8:32:59
Hey Cashy,
I hope you had a nice vacation, but that is obvious! They are always nice.
Last Thursday, 6 weeks and one day after my last dose I felt better. Sleep seemed a little deeper. It is strange because the start of the week was harsh. I slept decent Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, and ok on Sunday. My mood was much better also.
Today was kind of hard and I had lots of anxiety after eating tonight. I am cautious because too many times I thought I turned a corner only to get knocked back. Last night I had some trouble getting to sleep and then only got up once and the alarm actually woke me up at 6 am. That hasen't happened for 6 weeks! I seem prone to ups and downs so I am just a little optimistic right now. And also prone to sleep getting better only to fall back again. I like getting woken up by the alarm but I do feel different after getting up in the sense I used to be able to crash right back to sleep and now I am wide awake.
The morning anxiety you describe is so accurate and I think Musky has the same. It is always worse upon waking up. Strange for sure. Week 4 and 5 were terrible for me. I would wake up and after hitting a certain waking state the anxiety would hit, not a panic attack, just nagging. Those few weeks nothing helped me. Not, reading, meditation, music, etc., I just was sick of it all and just wanted to rest but even that was hard.
Cashy, I hope you, and all of us, find the peace we need and deserve.
Cheers
johnnyj
Posted by johnnyj on July 10, 2006, at 20:02:39
In reply to Re: Hey Jules , johnny, cashy, jenico..., posted by musky on July 6, 2006, at 23:02:18
Musky bud,
How is it going? From my post above you can see things have improved a bit for me. Still a long, long ways to go but I think I can see some light. How is the sleep progressing?
johnnyj
Posted by musky on July 13, 2006, at 0:58:01
In reply to Re: Hey Jules , johnny, cashy, jenico... » cashy72, posted by johnnyj on July 10, 2006, at 19:59:03
Hi all
Well its 7 weeks off Remeron and like johnny up and down.. but sleep is more solid these days.. waking up at 6am instead of 4am but still, like johnny , cant go back to sleep like I use to.. I am assuming this too will even out. so at least the quality of sleep is better these days.. the only thing is that sometimes I get a strong jerk somewhere beforefalling asleep.. strange as I havent had the jerking since i was on the higher doses of remeron... Again I think its just the nervous system adjusting...
anxiety a litle better.. still going to acupuncture and this is helping.. he is doing a differnt pattern again for this.. he is awsome acupuncturist..
LIke johnny anxiety is worse in the morning.. its like i first wake up in bed , then after about 5minutes I feel this overwhelming feeling of hoplessness, helpless, orcould just cry,... its soo wierd.. then the mood is up and down but more even the last couple days now..
Still getting the disconnected feeling but that comes and goes too..
I am just staying positive as much as i can.
I am on some of my holidays this week, just enjoying the weather and sun.. then in 2weeks i go for my "real vacation" to the beach and mts! so I am just trying to stay focused.
nausea is gone... and itchyness as well much better. After my summer vacation I am planning to do a detox .. end of August or so...
sometimes I get the real depressed feeling and just want to quit and give up, but then I shake this bad feeling and then im ok... its soo wierd this mood stuff.
last night I was listening to this live band (latin type music ) and it was sooo moving i just cried for the first time since being on Remeron. it felt so healing... my emotions have been numbed for so long on that stuff.well take care everyone.. good luck jenico keep weaning no matter what.. I think in time it does get better..
Musky
Hey Cashy,
>
> I hope you had a nice vacation, but that is obvious! They are always nice.
>
> Last Thursday, 6 weeks and one day after my last dose I felt better. Sleep seemed a little deeper. It is strange because the start of the week was harsh. I slept decent Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, and ok on Sunday. My mood was much better also.
>
> Today was kind of hard and I had lots of anxiety after eating tonight. I am cautious because too many times I thought I turned a corner only to get knocked back. Last night I had some trouble getting to sleep and then only got up once and the alarm actually woke me up at 6 am. That hasen't happened for 6 weeks! I seem prone to ups and downs so I am just a little optimistic right now. And also prone to sleep getting better only to fall back again. I like getting woken up by the alarm but I do feel different after getting up in the sense I used to be able to crash right back to sleep and now I am wide awake.
>
> The morning anxiety you describe is so accurate and I think Musky has the same. It is always worse upon waking up. Strange for sure. Week 4 and 5 were terrible for me. I would wake up and after hitting a certain waking state the anxiety would hit, not a panic attack, just nagging. Those few weeks nothing helped me. Not, reading, meditation, music, etc., I just was sick of it all and just wanted to rest but even that was hard.
>
> Cashy, I hope you, and all of us, find the peace we need and deserve.
>
> Cheers
>
> johnnyj
Posted by musky on July 13, 2006, at 1:01:03
In reply to Re: Hey Jules , johnny, cashy, jenico... » musky, posted by johnnyj on July 10, 2006, at 20:02:39
> Hey johnnyj
Things are better today for me... had acupuncture and feel more calm... good to see that you are doign better.. you were sounding real rough before..again i think that maybe this will pass for us.. hard to stay in this mindset sometimes when you are feeling anxious or depressed or dissconnected. but then when you do feel not too bad thats when you get the hopes up..
hang in there.Musky
Musky bud,
>
> How is it going? From my post above you can see things have improved a bit for me. Still a long, long ways to go but I think I can see some light. How is the sleep progressing?
>
> johnnyj
Posted by jules354 on July 13, 2006, at 11:09:36
In reply to Re: Hey Jules , johnny, cashy, jenico..., posted by musky on July 13, 2006, at 0:58:01
I'm glad your sleeping is getting a little better.
I know what you mean about crying more easily...all my emotions are flowing much more easily these days, which makes it so much easier to process through them! I find it much easier to express anger and sadness but not get stuck there, to move through them...
hang in there everyone.
jules
Posted by jules354 on July 13, 2006, at 12:57:45
In reply to Re: double double quotes » jules354, posted by Dr. Bob on July 7, 2006, at 3:03:54
Posted by johnnyj on July 18, 2006, at 8:03:39
In reply to Re: Hey Jules , johnny, cashy, jenico..., posted by musky on July 13, 2006, at 0:58:01
I had some great days and then things have gotten worse. Maybe 2 to 3 hours of sleep the last two nights. Lots of sweating and then cold at night. Nagging anxiety/depression that keeps me from deep sleep. I think it is anxiety just don't know really. Dizzy, some nausea but this could be from lack of sleep. I don't know what is going on with my body. I just want to sleep but it eludes me. That is all I want right now. My sex drive is gone, motivation gone, hell I barely can walk and I feel shakey. This is different than anything I have ever felt. God help me.
Posted by jules354 on July 18, 2006, at 10:02:52
In reply to Not good., posted by johnnyj on July 18, 2006, at 8:03:39
I'm so sorry, johnnyj. What does your dr. say? is she/he helpful at all?
take care,
jules
Posted by cashy72 on July 18, 2006, at 10:35:53
In reply to Not good., posted by johnnyj on July 18, 2006, at 8:03:39
Hey Johhny, So sorry too hear your having a tough time... Man, you've gotta push through this period your going thro'...hang in there, things will turn round for you mate.. are you taking any a/d's right now? Drink loads of water, exercise earlier in the day if possible, and then slowly unwind in the evening, long hot bath, with some lavender oil, nice cup of herbal tea, maybe peppermint...then when you actually get into bed, try and read for a while, or listen too some soft radio, and just try too chill. If you awake after a couple of hours, you need too actually get up, have a little walk around the house, do something for 10 - 20mins, then return too bed... just some things i hope will help you.
keep going mate. take it easy. CASHY72.
Posted by johnnyj on July 18, 2006, at 10:45:26
In reply to Re: Not good. » johnnyj, posted by jules354 on July 18, 2006, at 10:02:52
I saw her last monday and that was the 5th day of feeling good. I thought I had turned a corner because it was the best, and longest period since quitting. Then I had a bad night followed by two pretty good nights, another bad, then two good. The last two were horrible though. I am so fatigued it hurts to move. Stomach tension is bad and appetite is off. I am hungry but eating is hard. I have no idea what is going on. It doesn't feel like what I have experienced before so I am so confused. I don't see how I can be so up and down.
I sometimes feel very bad after eating. Just get really down and then I start to feel better some later. Sweating at night is bad. I feel cold so pull up the sheet only to start to sweat 5 minutes later. I just toss and turn with this frustration I can't control. I just don't understand what is going on?? Is this WD? or just plain old anixety. The funny thing is I don't feel panicky. The lack of sleep is hurting my mood big time. I guess I will be a slave to meds for the rest of my life. It is so sad because I don't like myself on meds. I am nicer to everyone off of them. I guess I just can't handle reality or something. I just want to sleep well and be a good husband to my wife. I do feel bad she has to deal with this and I wouldn't blame her if she left. It is hard not to think that I am headed rock bottom from here. My doc gave me rozerem but I have not taken any. If I can't fall asleep tonight I HAVE to try something. Sweet sleep where have you gone? I am so pissed off with this feeling of frustration I can't control.
Posted by johnnyj on July 18, 2006, at 10:56:04
In reply to Re: Not good., posted by cashy72 on July 18, 2006, at 10:35:53
Thanks everyone.
My problem is I cannot work out, have sex, hot bath, or stimulate my body without affecting my sleep. I am not on any AD right now but am thinking I MAY need something. Maybe sleep meds first? Don't now right now. Whatever regulates my body's temp is off kilter right now in the worst way.
After a bout of pneumonia a few years back I have not been able to excerise. Doc's can't figure it out and it was always the thing that helped me the most. Man, I have a lot of weird chest stuff going on. I have had back tension also that I never had before. Kind of shakey at times too. I am confused to say the least. All I want to do is sleep and that is what I cannot do.
Posted by jules354 on July 18, 2006, at 12:13:22
In reply to Re: Not good. » cashy72, posted by johnnyj on July 18, 2006, at 10:56:04
it totally makes sense to me that lack of sleep would make everything worse...i know when i haven't gotten enough sleep even in a minor way my temperature gets all wonky. i wonder if massage would help...i'll keep you in my thoughts, i hope you feel better very very soon! i'm sorry you're feeling so bad.
take care,
jules
Posted by johnnyj on July 18, 2006, at 16:49:35
In reply to Re: Not good., posted by jules354 on July 18, 2006, at 12:13:22
Thank you Jules, that is so nice of you. How are you doing?
I went to my family doctor today and he gave me lunesta. My pdoc thought lunesta was a type of benzo which it is not. He had some good ideas and said before we go the AD route let's try something, not everyday at first, to see if we can find a base for you. He wants me to get some ground beneath me so we can go from there. I will try to sleep on my own but if I wallow for an hour I will take lunesta.
One thing he did say is that he thought my W/D would be over after almost 8 weeks. He did admit that clinical/real cases tell the real picture. I told him that I feel like I have missed so much the last 5 years that I am still trying to make sense of things by feeling again. I told him the sleep stuff was taking it's toll. He does want to run some tests and I agree(cortisol and tetosterone). I asked him why the over sex drive one day and then almost adverse to it the next? That is why the tests. I am not manic so what is the deal? At least never been diagnosed bipolar. Because the lack of sleep doesn't make me get anything done that is for sure.
One day ready to just live and the next ready to run away and hide. Ups and downs are the pits.
take care
johnny
Posted by musky on July 18, 2006, at 22:40:49
In reply to Re: Not good. » jules354, posted by johnnyj on July 18, 2006, at 16:49:35
>Hey Johnny:
so sorry man you are doin rough again.. you were doing so well and I really thought that you were turning a corner.. Please try NOT to take any more meds!!! then you are stepping backwards.. go ahead and get the tests done for testosterone, etc. but if you take sleep meds, they screw up the alpha waves in the brain.. sure maybe you will get your sleep but it isnt YOU sleeping its the MEDSSSSS!!! and i thought you didnt like the side effects of them.. Sorry I dont mean to be so adimant about this.. and the doc saying that w/d should be over is full of it... sorry I know better. you have to remember how long were you on the remeron... and the downstream effects of remeron on the rest of the bodys functions.. remember it knocks out the adrenals for awhile too. one of the functions of the adrenal glands is body temp... that could explain the sweating,etc...
I just suffered through the not sleeping.. yesI too am like you and definitlely need a good sleep, but I just keep fighiting..
did you try acupuncture?? cause this has helped with my insomnia.. Yes I still get some ups and downs but not NEARLY as bad as before..
My moods have been up and down and mostlty the anxiety panic overwhelming crap, but it passes and then i am full of hope again.. I just keep going... I have made up my mind I will not go back on remeron..it made me worse and that is not the problemmm . I know I just have to keep working on my mind set and I know that it takes a VERY LONG TIME for the body to readjust after meds... I know too many people that have come off meds and they took MONTHS even up to 2yrs to feel Right in the head... I am prepared for this.. give yourself a chance yet johnny... its only been 2months for us... I too am doubting sometimes but you have to be STRONG and STUBBORN..
like today for examole i was totally out of it in my mind I really thought i was losing it and was sooo disconnected.. finally , finally it passed and I am better tonight.. I just KEPT going and changing my mind, deep breathing, etc.... self care, big time..
dont worry about sex drive up and down.. again its the w/d and body adjusting.. watch out for the pdocs they just know how to RX ,, thats alll /.uyou think they really care.??? if they did they would get at the whole person and not just push another pill to numb uou out..
Please try NOT to stress about NOt sleeping... I fully understand, ive been there rememberr??? if stress about the sleep you will be worse... just let it come it will.. you had good days before, so there is your proof that you are healing right?dont go back ...yoiuve come this far being off remeron... keep going...
and if you cant sleep just lay there then.. I would suggest a relaxing tape or music.. I dont totally agree with getting up cause then thats sending your body signals to "wake up".. i would prefer to just lay there .. all night if need be and just chill... try to have a no care attitude you know,, read or whatever then sorta maybe doze. just close your eyes and rest , even if you dont fall sound asleep its ok... it will come... trust in this... take it easy,,, do the hot bath like cashy suggests and hot tea, (herbal ) or hot milk(thats a sedative)... try a bit longer before steeping back into meds...sorry to ramble.. Im kinda wierd myself but Im fighin this like hell... I am determined to stay OFF meds forever!!! especially a/d and anxiety meds... they really did a number on me... I want to be free to enjoy life and have my own mind and body back with no side effects hangin around..
take care
Musky
Thank you Jules, that is so nice of you. How are you doing?
>
> I went to my family doctor today and he gave me lunesta. My pdoc thought lunesta was a type of benzo which it is not. He had some good ideas and said before we go the AD route let's try something, not everyday at first, to see if we can find a base for you. He wants me to get some ground beneath me so we can go from there. I will try to sleep on my own but if I wallow for an hour I will take lunesta.
>
> One thing he did say is that he thought my W/D would be over after almost 8 weeks. He did admit that clinical/real cases tell the real picture. I told him that I feel like I have missed so much the last 5 years that I am still trying to make sense of things by feeling again. I told him the sleep stuff was taking it's toll. He does want to run some tests and I agree(cortisol and tetosterone). I asked him why the over sex drive one day and then almost adverse to it the next? That is why the tests. I am not manic so what is the deal? At least never been diagnosed bipolar. Because the lack of sleep doesn't make me get anything done that is for sure.
>
> One day ready to just live and the next ready to run away and hide. Ups and downs are the pits.
>
> take care
>
> johnny
Posted by musky on July 18, 2006, at 22:43:34
In reply to Re: Not good. » jules354, posted by johnnyj on July 18, 2006, at 16:49:35
johnny:
if u do get the tests done for cortisol. etc, dont be surprised if they are off.. and really challenge the doc by asking him/her if the REMERON caused this ... I believe that is what did it.. and now your body is trying to readjust.. see what kind of reaction you get from your doc(hmmm)..
Hang in there
Musky
Posted by johnnyj on July 19, 2006, at 16:06:33
In reply to Re: Not good., posted by musky on July 18, 2006, at 22:43:34
Well, no good news.
I took a small dose of lunesta last night and slept for maybe, 5 hours. I just cannot sleep. I am so tired and my thinking is being affected. I am at my wits end. I guess my body is telling me I need an AD or remeron.
I simply cannot be this useless and nonfunctional. All I want to do is rest and then I can't get refreshed trying that. I have no motivation, and moving takes colossal energy.
My stomcah is in knots and my appetite is terrible. I have shoulder and back tension that is very weird. The strange thing is I don't feel like I am panicky, just down from lack of sleep. I simply toss and turn and get frustrated all night. Don't they say we have a lot of receptors in our gut for seratonin, etc.? I guess my receptors are toast and are not functioning again after remeron. Maybe I just have to face the fact that my body must have something to function. I don't want to feel or think that but what do I do? Eating makes my mood dip which is strange.
I can't believe that 3.75 mg was doing anything for me? Is it possible that this is WD? or is my body refusing to repair itself? I wonder what would happen if I took a 3.75 dose? I won't yet but would all of these symptoms go away? Would that mean it is WD?
I am going to work through this until next Monday when I see my doc and if I can't get some relief by then measures have to be taken as I cannot live like this. I don't know what I did to deserve this but I guess I am a freak. I feel sorry for my wife as she doesn't deserve such a weak husband. Damn, this sucks.
Posted by johnnyj on July 19, 2006, at 16:07:41
In reply to Re: Not good., posted by musky on July 18, 2006, at 22:43:34
fare better than me. Good luck and I will pray for all of you tonight.
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