![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 20 to 44 of 115. Go back in thread:
Posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 23:07:29
In reply to Re: Need to understand ** Trigger warning, posted by Nickengland on October 13, 2005, at 22:53:50
...are you saying I should be in jail?
I didn't do anything illegal.
Deneb
Posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 23:13:22
In reply to Re: Nickengland..., posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 23:07:29
I have some insight I think. My p-doc said so. She said I have a mild borderline personality.
I scored low for anti-social personality in this quiz I took, so I'm not sure why you think I will go to jail.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20051007/msgs/564659.html
Deneb
Posted by crazy teresa on October 13, 2005, at 23:37:58
In reply to Re: Nickengland..., posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 23:13:22
The article said some people don't get the help they need until they go to jail. The courts are forcing them to get treatment.
As opposed to going and getting the NEEDED help on your own, before things get way out of control and the police are forced to intervene.
Posted by justyourlaugh on October 13, 2005, at 23:47:07
In reply to Re: Nickengland..., posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 23:13:22
good golly ..
being brief..
repeat explainations...
honest..
caring..
love..
tell us where to go from here...
Posted by gardenergirl on October 13, 2005, at 23:47:17
In reply to Re: Nickengland..., posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 23:13:22
Deneb,
Nothing in Nick's post says anthing about you going to jail. His post was not about you, it was about treatment and patterns of behavior and events often seen in people with personality disorders.I'm worried about you.
Are you still taking your medication as prescribed? Are you getting regular sleep and nutrition? Are you doing at least one thing you enjoy everyday? Do you do at least one thing you are capable of doing (even if it's tying your shoes) every day?
These are things than can help people cope with mood disruptions, or affective dysregulation as Linehan refers to it in her work on Dialectical Behavior Therapy. You mightalso find some interesting exercises in learning to cope with and manage distress at www.dbtselfhelp.com Perhaps this approach could help you discover choices in ways to cope while you wait for you pdoc to return from her leave.
And the issue about talking about suicide and how it affects others is an issue of courtesy. We have rules here at Babble to help us extend courtesy to one another. When there isn't a rule, we try to be sensitive to others' feelings, even if they do not match ours. Sometimes that means we can't talk about certain subjects in the manner we would like to here.
I like to talk about my political beliefs, and I often make jokes about the other political party and some of its leaders. It's a habit I have that might hurt others who's views are different from my own. It's both a rule here and a courtesy I extend (at least I try to be consistent with it) to my fellow Babblers to refrain from discussing politics in that manner. That's something I have to live with in order to participate here.
Please stop to consider others' feelings before you post about something triggering. I appreciate that you are putting a trigger warning in your subject lines.
gg
Posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 0:11:38
In reply to Take a deep breath and read Nick's post again,plz » Deneb, posted by gardenergirl on October 13, 2005, at 23:47:17
> Deneb,
> Nothing in Nick's post says anthing about you going to jail.I'm sorry Nickengland, I read the post and I thought you were talking about how I should be in jail. Also, I have insight, I really do. I suspected I had a borderline personality even before my p-doc mentioned it.
> Are you still taking your medication as prescribed?
I kinda experimented with taking 0.25mg Risperdal yesterday(?) instead of 0.5mg. I think it helps me be more hesitant to act on my thoughts.
>Are you getting regular sleep and nutrition?
I think so. My sleep is never truly regular so it is normal for me.
>Are you doing at least one thing you enjoy everyday?
I may as well. I just realized my life is over.
> Do you do at least one thing you are capable of doing (even if it's tying your shoes) every day?
I went to class instead of buying a you-know-what. I like to sleep a lot. I sleep til 3pm.
>You mightalso find some interesting exercises in learning to cope with and manage distress at www.dbtselfhelp.comThanks for the website GG
> Please stop to consider others' feelings before you post about something triggering.
I will try very hard to remember GG. I'm going to take Rainbowbrite's word that triggers hurt people and make them feel like when I'm feeling really horrible.
Deneb
Posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 0:40:40
In reply to Re: Thanks GG *trigger?* » gardenergirl, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 0:11:38
Here's some good info on borderline personality disorder
=================================================
http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic270.htm"BPD is considered to have a condition on the border between psychosis and neurosis."
"The disorder is characterized by marked instability in functioning; affect; mood; interpersonal relationships; and, at times, reality testing."
"Patients with BPD might manifest overwhelming anger when in a state of crisis."
"Psychotic symptoms, when present, are short lived, circumscribed, or accompanied by good reality testing."
"The person with a personality disorder is frequently dissatisfied with his or her marked and sustained impairment in social, occupational, or academic functioning."
"Premature death among patients with BPD may be due to the increased risk of suicide in this population. Approximately 70-75% of patients with BPD have a history of at least one deliberate act of self-harm. According to Linehan et al, the **mean estimated rate of completed suicides 9%.**"
=================================================
I'm doomed. :-(
Posted by justyourlaugh on October 14, 2005, at 0:52:08
In reply to Need to understand triggers and suicide, posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 20:42:10
I understand about using descriptions of cutting as triggering. They "trigger" people into cutting etc. I don't get it for suicide though. Talking about suicide doesn't trigger me into suicide. Does it trigger you into thinking about committing suicide?
please reread your post....
how can i be civil....???
never post about how you understand the "cutter"..we are not yours to understand..
please continue to only speak of yourself...
never post about how "borderlines" feeel ..we are not yours to understand..speak for yourself.
if i may...
"the circle is broken"..
Posted by justyourlaugh on October 14, 2005, at 1:07:32
In reply to Re: Borderline personality *trigger*, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 0:40:40
lable(bpb)......is not death(doom).
deneb has shown ..ununderstanding..
several times i have expresed my hurt in her group "labeling"..polically incorrect..many times over...
Posted by Nickengland on October 14, 2005, at 8:36:21
In reply to Good link, (nm) » Nickengland, posted by crazy teresa on October 13, 2005, at 23:04:29
Posted by AuntieMel on October 14, 2005, at 9:11:56
In reply to Need to understand triggers and suicide, posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 20:42:10
Is it really important to understand *why* people are triggered?
Or is it only important to know that they are?
There are many, many things in life that upset others. From small to large.
Chewing and talking at the same time. Cursing. and so on. I don't need to understand *why* they upset people, only that they do. And I need to respect that.
Posted by ClearSkies on October 14, 2005, at 9:22:25
In reply to Re: You DON'T Need to understand triggers » Deneb, posted by AuntieMel on October 14, 2005, at 9:11:56
Thank you, AuntieMel. I couldn't figure out a civil way to word it!
Posted by holymama on October 14, 2005, at 9:59:56
In reply to Re: You DON'T Need to understand triggers » AuntieMel, posted by ClearSkies on October 14, 2005, at 9:22:25
Deneb,
I have three little kids -- 4,5 and 7. I love them with every bone of my body and want to watch them grow up and I want to be a healthy role model for them so that they can have an easier time through their lives.
I do NOT want them to find my dead body and mourn the loss of not having a mother for the rest of their lives and use my example as their own when they run into trouble -- "well, mom did it when times were hard, so it's always an option for me..."
Suicidal feelings are something I BATTLE, not embrace. I feel them intensely when I am really depressed but when I come out of a depression I feel as though I have won the battle by not killing myself.
I think that most people here feel the same way about suicide, so for someone to speak lightly about it is painful and scary for most of us. We want to get away from it, even though our illnesses force us close.
I understand Deneb that you are only trying to understand, not being uncivil. Can you understand that it would be really painful for me to see jokes about suicide here on this site when I (and a lot of others here) am fighting with all of my strength to fight that 'monster' and stay with my babies?
You should see my babies, Deneb. They are too beautiful for words. If you saw them, I think you would understand.
~Autumn~
Posted by Nickengland on October 14, 2005, at 10:21:38
In reply to Re: Thanks GG *trigger?* » gardenergirl, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 0:11:38
Hello Deneb,
Hope you're feeling better today :-)
>I'm sorry Nickengland, I read the post and I thought you were talking about how I should be in jail.
No worries...The way I posted the link and my intention was to copy and paste the professional help available. Basically I copied and pasted the body of the section of that part of the site which happened to include the information about police and courts as it was on the tail end...No way intended to suggest you should go to jail for what you post on an internet forum!
Also, I was having some trouble sleeping last night, I think its because of the darker days coming are affecting my body clock (i'm looking to buy a light box for this) but anyway I was pretty drowsy when I posted the messages I did, so I apologise if they appeared to be slightly unclear..
I thought it might be worth mentioning to you, I know of someone (a man) he's a distant relative who was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder afew years ago. Which is strange in a way because from what I understand, most people with borderline personality disorder, or a high percentage are young women, 75% or something like that but i guess he falls into the 25% of the 10-14% of the popluation it effects (in rough figures)
With regards to coming in contact with the police, he did. But not like how you would expect one to become in contact with the police for commiting a crime and being arrested and possily going to jail etc. What happened was he was constantly making suicide threats, or to the effect of that eg phoning people and going into detail of how he's basically had enough of life, he'd done all he wanted to do and now it was time to end it. He would go into detail about how he wanted to end it. This came to a head one night in London where he was found on Tower Bridge, kind of prepared to jump into the river Thames. The police were called because of the nature of his behaviour surrounding his actions of what he was claiming he was going to do, or what it looked like he was going to attempt.
He did not go to jail and was not arrested. The police involved however refered him to a London hospital for 28 days where he was assessed by a team of mental health specialists and was diagnosed as having borderline personality disorder. You see, I don't think at all that what you say on here, or more to the point if I was to suggest you should go to jail for posting something on here, then I would back it up with evidence etc and believe me you would know that I was suggesting I was saying you should go to jail! The traits that I see when you speak about suicide are identical to that of the man I knew (distant relative) who was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder.
I understand you must be under alot of stress when you write what you do, at the end of one of the messages you wrote above, you said "Kill me people, kill me!"
Killing or killing oneself can be viewed as murder. Murdering oneself or murdering someone else. I'm not saying you're a murderer! But you understand the nature of suicide is killing and killing can be viewed as murder, murder is illegal for obvious reasons and carries punishments of manslaughter, life in prisionment and in certain areas of the world the death sentance. Then theres insanity at the time of the murder.
What I'm getting at is, when you're thinking about suicide, you're not well. So suffering the effects of an illness which brings out thoughts and feelings that you want to end your life. The answer to this, is not to end your life. Its simply to treat the illness so that you do not feel this way and so the illness and pain is relieved, you are then in effect made well. Back to the man I knew, who took things to the edge and also before had an incident on a bridge above some train tracks. When he was finally diagnosed and correctly treated, his symptoms, including that of the thoughts which led him to such extreams have not happened since...
>Also, I have insight, I really do. I suspected I had a borderline personality even before my p-doc mentioned it.
I believe you're a very intelligent young lady. You knew you had borderline personality disorder even before the experts did which they later confirmed! :-) Don't look at this negatively. Look at this positively. You was able to find the problem yourself with your insight and knowledge which then leads to the solution which is knowing that the problem can be effectively treated. Think of it like this, when you stand to cross the road and a car rushes past you, your immidate instinct is to avoid the car ~ to protect yourself and avoid death. Think of this in the aspect of your thinking, deep down you know that you want to avoid death at all costs as its built into us that this is what we do. Be honest with the doctors, don't try to manipulate them to give them the answers you feel they want to keep them happy. Rather take advantage of the treatment options and use/work with them honestly which will then give you the ultimate outcome of having as close to 100% control over your life. In turn your grow 10 fold in confidence and achive things beyond your wildest dreams.
A suggestion, instead of focusing on death as I feel at your age which is the same as mine if your 23, you have a whole life ahead of you with so much to offer and focusing on death, spiritually must be bad for the soul. Instead of fousing on death, use your intelligence, insight and knowledge to read up as much as possible about how to effectively treat yourself to live in comfort rather than pain.
Your current doctor (the man) uses medications, I think he's doing the right thing, the medications will dramically help you to stop having these thoughts which in turn could lead to actions. Your old doctor worked more with talking. You feel your missing out on something there. The answer is a combination. If you have a psychiatirst which has many years prescibing drugs which will dramatically help you, think this will be to your advantage in your overall outcome. Read up on the various medications being used, check out the side effects, how effective they are, what willl they help you with eg, avoidance, anxiety depression, borderline issues, mood stability, possible psychotic thoughts. Antidepressants, mood stabilisers, antiepileptics, antipsychotics, benzodiaepines. Suggest them to your doctor, work with him.
Take advantage of Dialectical Behavior Therapy and CBT.
With all that energy spent in your spare time eliminating your pain, your find there will be no time left in the day for it to breed.
I hope this makes sense.
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 12:46:59
In reply to uncivil..uncivil... » Deneb, posted by justyourlaugh on October 14, 2005, at 1:07:32
> lable(bpb)......is not death(doom).
> deneb has shown ..ununderstanding..
> several times i have expresed my hurt in her group "labeling"..polically incorrect..many times over...
>I'm sorry jyl. I didn't mean that all people with BPD are doomed. I only meant that *I* am doomed...not everyone.
Also, I do understand cutting, I did it myself.
Deneb
Posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 12:55:59
In reply to Re: You DON'T Need to understand triggers » Deneb, posted by AuntieMel on October 14, 2005, at 9:11:56
> Is it really important to understand *why* people are triggered?
I just thought that maybe if I understood *why* that I would be better able to predict which posts need a trigger warning. Sometimes it is a surprise to me which posts trigger people and I don't understand why.
I need some concrete rules about triggers then...
Tell me which subjects need a trigger warning. It just confuses me. In a thread above a poster writes about suicide and yet that didn't need a trigger. Why are so many of my posts a trigger to people?>I need to respect that.
I do respect the need for triggers, but I would like to be better able to predict which topics need trigger warnings. Sometimes it feels like it is random you know...I'm confused about why some topics mention certain things and are not triggering and yet other topics are triggering.
Deneb
Posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 13:03:10
In reply to suicide is something most of us fight off**TRIGGER, posted by holymama on October 14, 2005, at 9:59:56
> Suicidal feelings are something I BATTLE, not embrace.
I battle them too. :-(
I often write that I don't want to kill myself, but sometimes I change my mind. I don't understand why people think I'm making light of suicide. I really suffer. I suffer so much at times that I do think suicide is the way out. Maybe I just don't know how to express my suffering.Deneb
Posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 13:23:32
In reply to Re: suicide is something most of us fight off**TRIGGER » holymama, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 13:03:10
Hi people
I think I lost it a little last night. I just want to say that I'm sorry. I don't want to hurt people here, but I always seem to anyway. I'm sorry for the, "Kill me" bit. I was feeling pretty bad and I just wanted to be dead.
Tell me what I can do to make this better. I'm sorry if I'm draining to the community.
Deneb
Posted by Tamar on October 14, 2005, at 13:42:30
In reply to Re: suicide is something most of us fight off**TRIGGER » holymama, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 13:03:10
Hi Deneb,
I can see why you want to understand what might be triggering. And that sometimes it’s hard to know how people might respond to what you say.
Here’s what I think: I’ve read a lot of posts here in which people have said they feel suicidal. And in most cases people post (a) the reasons they feel suicidal and (b) that they don’t want to feel suicidal.
You said:
"Maybe I just don't know how to express my suffering."
It does seem to me that you don’t often say *why* you are thinking about death. And you also don’t often say that you don’t want to feel suicidal. So I think it could be hard for people to understand the depths of your suffering. Without additional information (like what has prompted your suicidal feelings) perhaps people could interpret your posts as taking suicide lightly.Maybe some people could think you don’t take suicide seriously. If they thought you were being serious they could perhaps feel compassion for you despite the personal pain the subject triggers for them. But maybe it’s harder for people for feel compassion if they don’t understand your suicidal feelings.
I happen to believe that you do take suicide seriously. And I suspect that you don’t always know why you feel suicidal. I suspect that sometimes you just feel you want to die without having any particular reason. Of course, I could be wrong… I don’t want to jump to conclusions or tell you how you feel or anything like that. Please feel free to correct me if I’ve misunderstood you.
I think it’s important for you to be able to talk about your suicidal feelings here. There are people here who seem to understand and who want to help as much as they can. There might always be some people (here and in real life) who don’t understand, perhaps because their own pain gets in the way of the possibility of feeling compassion for you. If there are any people in that situation I guess the best thing we can do is to feel compassion for them...
But I think the way you’re talking about it now is different from when you first came to Babble and I think you’ve shown that you do care how other people feel about your posts. That’s surely a good thing.
Tamar
Posted by holymama on October 14, 2005, at 14:11:45
In reply to Re: suicide is something most of us fight off**TRIGGER » holymama, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 13:03:10
> Suicidal feelings are something I BATTLE, not embrace.
I battle them too. :-(
I often write that I don't want to kill myself, but sometimes I change my mind. I don't understand why people think I'm making light of suicide. I really suffer. I suffer so much at times that I do think suicide is the way out. Maybe I just don't know how to express my suffering.
Deneb, I know you battle those feelings. That's why you write so much about it. I think you are in a constant battle between liking the idea and wanting to be saved from it. I think you have a lot of confusion about it.I guess the reason why I said you were taking suicide lightly is because you seem to be asking what the big deal is about it. You often ask why it bothers people, and when you ask that question, it makes me think that you don't understand the depth of emotion if brings up in people.
By the way, I don't think you are too draining on this community. I think you are one of the most interesting people here. I feel like you post your real feelings here and I think that's a great asset that you have. If you bottled things up, you might not feel like 'such a drain', but you wouldn't get any help from people either.
Sometimes I think you take peoples' comments too harshly. By the end of your posts you are often apologizing to people. I think that when people write to you, whether they are gentle or harsh, they are trying in their different ways to help you. Some might try by calming you down and making you feel good, others might try the tough love approach to get through to you. I think everyone here is really trying to reach you one way or another. Sometimes things we don't want to hear are what we need to hear in order to heal.
~Autumn~
Posted by AuntieMel on October 14, 2005, at 14:42:11
In reply to Apology to everyone, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 13:23:32
Note: I'm only speaking for myself here.
Think for a minute. Have you ever had someone you care about hurt you? And then had that person apologize for hurting you?
You accept the apology and things return to normal, but then in a couple of days that person repeats the hurtful behavior, following it with an apology after finding out you are hurt (again.)
This goes on several more times. Each time the apology sounds less sincere to you, doesn't it? And each time you are warier that the behavior will repeat, aren't you?
That is how I feel when I keep reading these posts.
You say you want to make it up to people? There is one way to do it: Get The Help You Need!!!!!
Work on getting better. There are ways. Nikki has offered several times to help you find the way, and she has loads of experience with BPD. Use these resources and build yourself a life to be proud of!
That more than anything will make things better.
Posted by JenStar on October 14, 2005, at 16:02:40
In reply to Re: You DON'T Need to understand triggers » AuntieMel, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 12:55:59
Deneb,
I'm glad you noticed that some people's threads, while they contain difficult content and worries about suicide or grave illnesses, don't trigger, anger or irritate others. Instead, those posts mostly garner loving support and kind words for the person who wrote it.Something about your posts must be different, insofar as your posts often seem to elicit different responses --- right?
The posters who receive the kind, loving and caring responses -- not angry ones -- are trusted here. Something about the way they write their own posts and responses to others' posts makes them trusted and valued members here.
If you want the truth, I personally feel that your posts often sound manipulative and deliberate in your use of triggering words and phrases. Sometimes it SEEMS to me that a post written in the style you write MIGHT have been written to "test" or "push buttons."
Now I know that might be greatly offensive to you...but you did ask. And honestly, that's what I think many times when I read your posts. (And part of me thinks you already know it, too, and consequently the fact that you're asking once again makes me think you're TRYING to trigger people here!)
Deneb, you've asked so many times why suicide is triggering. If you don't get it, just accept it. If you continue to post things that people have told you hurts/frustrates/saddens them, don't be surprised when you get angry responses, or if people just sort of drift away from you and stop responding to your posts at all. (Is this an experiment for you...to see how everyone reacts?)
If you're really struggling with this, I really suggest staying with you p-doc. He may not be perfect, but he's s start, and hopefully he can help you with techniques to become more socially adept, studious and able to handle stress management.
good luck. take care.
JenStarIf
Posted by crazy teresa on October 14, 2005, at 16:26:00
In reply to Re: You DON'T Need to understand triggers » Deneb, posted by JenStar on October 14, 2005, at 16:02:40
Posted by Nickengland on October 14, 2005, at 16:30:20
In reply to Re: You DON'T Need to understand triggers » AuntieMel, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 12:55:59
Hello Deneb
>I just thought that maybe if I understood *why* that I would be better able to predict which posts need a trigger warning. Sometimes it is a surprise to me which posts trigger people and I don't understand why.
>I need some concrete rules about triggers then...
>Tell me which subjects need a trigger warning. It just confuses me. In a thread above a poster writes about suicide and yet that didn't need a trigger. Why are so many of my posts a trigger to people?Perhaps one step at a time will help ease the confusion, as in at this stage perhaps it is not important as to why others are triggered by your posts. (You could always ask the specific poster who you feel you have triggered to find out why)
Maybe, the triggering, in this case begins with your *triggers* What is triggering you to write the things you do which then goes on to trigger others?
I think that perhaps you are the one who is triggered, you have the issue of a trigger which is causing you to write the things you do.
The way to resolve this will be to look at your triggers and the reasoning behind why you are triggered in the first place.
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 16:48:42
In reply to Re: You DON'T Need to understand triggers » Deneb, posted by JenStar on October 14, 2005, at 16:02:40
JenStar, I just know that sometimes I get extremely upset. I think you may be right, I think I may be manipulative. But I also think that my manipulation is not only dangerous to others, but it is dangerous to me. I'm afraid I'm going to die and people will cease to hear my calls for help. I hate feeling the way I do. I really am depressed right now if that means anything to you.
What will it take for you to believe me? If I were really going to be manipulative I would say that I was going to down a giant bottle of ____ right now and hope that Dr. Bob calls the police before I die. I would be manipulative yes, but there is also a real chance of my dying.
And after I die, people will ask themselves why they didn't believe me when I asked for help.
Yes, there may be an element of manipulation (but I never want to harm others), but there is also the chance of real death. Soon I know that my cries for wolf will go unnoticed and I really will die.
"Premature death among patients with BPD may be due to the increased risk of suicide in this population. Approximately 70-75% of patients with BPD have a history of at least one deliberate act of self-harm. According to Linehan et al, the **mean estimated rate of completed suicides 9%.**"
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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