![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 8 to 32 of 76. Go back in thread:
Posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 21:40:05
In reply to But Mom, he's SO cute...... » DaisyM, posted by Karen_kay on December 30, 2003, at 18:55:00
I'm sure you are a great client even now...all you have to be is yourself.
I'm glad he has some experience -- and it seems you have a good perspective on why he does what he does.
Just don't hold back because it is time limited...and don't push too hard either. You will make progress if you keep at it, slow and steady.
And, it is nice that he is cute! :)
Posted by Medusa on December 31, 2003, at 4:31:52
In reply to Can we try this again, posted by Karen_kay on December 30, 2003, at 14:41:28
Karen_Kay, what about instating a 5-minute break in your sessions? So you can re-group and see whether you're saying what you really want to do?
I have these in my current therapy structure, and so far I haven't really used the breaks actively, I've just gone out on the balcony and looked out over the city and shivered and waited for the therapist to come back from her discussion with the observation team. But I think I'm going to start using the breaks to do my own assessment.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 31, 2003, at 7:53:30
In reply to random idea, posted by Medusa on December 31, 2003, at 4:31:52
The only problem is that I already waste so much time the way it is. I mean during the last session I sat there for 15 minutes in silence, and this happens quite often. I do it so I can get myself under control, and he thinks I do it to "show I'm boss", so to speak. I know that I don't need to regain my composure, that I shouldn't anyway. I just hate feeling like I don't have control of my emotions. And my mind goes blank. And I just want to suck my thumb :( I feel like a little kid and he already treats me like one. I'm almost over this therapy crap... (I always think this, I'll be there next week...)
Posted by Dinah on December 31, 2003, at 8:34:25
In reply to Re: random idea » Medusa, posted by Karen_kay on December 31, 2003, at 7:53:30
Hmmm....
It doesn't really sound like your therapist has a good idea of what's going on with you. You call him because the difficult work is stirring up too much between sessions, and he thinks you're laughing in the telephone message? (Did I get that right?). You're silent in sessions and he thinks it's for control reasons? I think all of us have sometimes or even frequently been so overwhelmed that our minds blank out during sessions. My therapist seems to have some system to decide whether or not to "call" me back out of the fog. And he's being "direct".
Can you print out a few of your posts on this thread where you discuss what's really going on in and between sessions and what you think he's thinking is going on?
Or you can cobble those ideas together in a letter to him. I often had trouble saying those things directly to my therapist, but it was a lot easier in a letter. Don't let the time constraints keep you from getting the most benefit from your sessions. A year an a half is a fairly long time, and you can always go to therapy in your new home.
Please take care.
Dinah
Posted by Karen_kay on December 31, 2003, at 12:46:50
In reply to Re: random idea » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on December 31, 2003, at 8:34:25
I agree that he has no idea of what is going on with me. I'm not even sure I know what's going on with me. But, I don't tell him what's going on either. I am very good at denying that anything is wrong. I haven't told him that I am starting to feel depressed again or that I'm feeling very anxious again either. For some reason I just don't feel it's his business to know (how silly is that??). Or maybe I think that if I deny that I feel that way, then maybe I can just make it go away. So, in all fairness, how can he really know what's going on if I don't tell him. But I feel he's to blame for starting all of this and not helping me the way he should. It's all his fault I'm feeling this way and he's not doing anything to help me feel better. It just feels like everytime I leave his office, I feel worse than before. This really isn't helping me get better. And if I just quit therapy, I'm afraid I'll just feel like this the rest of my life and I can't imagine feeling this way for the rest of my life. I just need to get out of this mess and soon.
Posted by pegasus on December 31, 2003, at 14:16:23
In reply to Can we try this again, posted by Karen_kay on December 30, 2003, at 14:41:28
Karen, I know it's tricky to say anything negative about someone else's therapist, because we all have our reasons for staying with them. And yet, I have to say that I agree with some of the other posters here that it doesn't seem that you are connecting so well with your therapist. I mean, he didn't call you back because he thought you were laughing? And when you go blank he just lets you sit there and thinks you're trying to control the situation? And I guess he sees that as a problem? It doesn't really make sense to me. Also, some of your later posts in this thread are sounding pretty sad. There is a lot of important stuff that you are not telling him. And it sounds like you're not feeling very helped. It makes me concerned for you.
Are there real pros that keep you with him, aside from general therapist dependency and the fact that he's so cute? I want there to be for your sake, but I'm not seeing them lately in your posts.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 31, 2003, at 16:51:12
In reply to Re: Can we try this again, posted by pegasus on December 31, 2003, at 14:16:23
Well.... Ok. I'm not going to try to defend him. First of all, I'm angry at him. I'm always angry at him. I think it's healthy. I mean I can't be angry at my dad because I feel like it's my fault he's dead, so I'll just be angry at the next best thing.
And I don't become offended or insulted if someone says something bad about him, I'll be the first to jump in and join!
I agree about the phone call situation. He did apologize and I could tell that he felt bad. It wasn't an emergency, I just needed some advice. I think more importantly I needed to hear his voice before he left town for two weeks.
And during the silence, he tried to get me to talk but I just couldn't. He finally gave up. Afterwards he asked what I was thinking and I was being honest and said "Nothing." I wasn't thinking anything. I was FEELING a lot. I felt like I was losing control. But he explained that I was assuming control of the situation by not talking, the fondation of therapy. I finally explained to him that I was on the verge of crying and that even though I knew I would get brownie pointw with him by crying I couldn't/wouldn't cry in front of him. I can't allow myself to lose control and I had to sit there until I was able to tune everything out and regain control of my emotions. So, I think that maybe he understands me a little better. Maybe he sees that I'm not as heartless as I let on.
The thing is, I always feel like this after a therapy session. I can tend to "forget" things until Tuesday when I see him. He just constantly reminds me of things that I try so hard to forget. And it isn't that he isn't helpful. It's just that I'm less than honest with him. I can go in and sit down with him and talk about things from my past and he'll ask, "So, how are you doing?" and I'll say, "Oh, I'm great." I'll flat out lie to him. When I'm falling apart I just sit there and smile and laugh and tell him that I'm doing great. So, how can he really know that I'm falling apart? I guess I expect him to be able to know that I'm not OK. I mean other people in my situation wouldn't be ok, so why would I be fine? I'm just waiting for him to ask the right questions.
I'm not staying with him because he's cute. He's done a great job this far. I'm just convinced it's me. I think by now he should know the way I operate. I've been seeing him for almost a year. So, he should know that I deny when I'm feeling depressed or anxious or nervous. And he's the one who helped me figure a lot of things out. Maybe he's not always completely helpful or supportive, but we can work on that. It's tough, but I think we'll be fine. I just wish it wasn't so hard.
Posted by DaisyM on January 1, 2004, at 14:07:41
In reply to Re: Can we try this again » pegasus, posted by Karen_kay on December 31, 2003, at 16:51:12
<<<When I'm falling apart I just sit there and smile and laugh and tell him that I'm doing great. So, how can he really know that I'm falling apart? I guess I expect him to be able to know that I'm not OK. I mean other people in my situation wouldn't be ok, so why would I be fine? I'm just waiting for him to ask the right questions.
>>>Karen,
I've done a lot of reading about working with trauma victims,looking for that right question or technique that would allow me to unlock the feelings/memories and "get it over with" and move on. In fact a few months ago I intended to intentionally "flood" (emotionally) so I could be done with all of this. This really alarmed my Therapist when I told him because it can cause a pretty big crash. He *told* me to put that idea right out of my head! Then he explained why we circle around and around, let it go for awhile and then come back to it. As I've said, my present issues are no less complicated than the past so there is always plenty to talk about. There are no short cuts with this stuff. It is an unfolding process that takes time, and trust.
Therapists are not suppose to ask "leading" questions, that is how the false memory crap got started. There are still so many people who believe that recovered memories are all made up or implanted somehow by Therapists. So now Therapists wait for you to present material and they ask questions about that material to see where it leads.
And, there is a certain wisdom in not stirring up past events that are not currently bothering you -- they might never! (unlikely, but still) Some people have compensated very well and are able to keep the past buried -- I did it for almost 30 years. It wasn't that I didn't remember, I just *didn't* let it enter into my present consciousness. Triggers are complicated so there is no predicting what will set you off and when, if ever.
It helped me when my Therapist starting referring to "your therapy"...it made me realize that he intended to individualize treatment and that I should too. Which means I lead, or I tell him I can't about a certain subject and he will. But when I just tell him "I'm OK" he usually raises his eyebrows and waits -LOL. In the beginning he missed lots of hints and clues -- or maybe he didn't and he needed me to say what I was thinking.
I know he isn't a mind-reader (though sometimes I wonder) and I remind myself that if I was OK I would't still be seeing him.
So after all of this: Are you really mad at him, or at yourself? Anger is usually a mask for fear and what you are dealing with is hugely scary! Maybe you could think of talking about it in small increments. If you get 10-15 minutes of serious discussion going, or give a monolog of 10 minutes, be happy with that. Starting small will allow you to work up. When I first starting talking about the past I could only do it for a few minutes at a time. I would quickly get overwhelmed with the fear of telling and there were times when my Therapist actually stopped us...moving away from it so that I had time to calm down before ending.
You won't feel like this the rest of your life. You are dealing with it now, early on, and you will find the other side.
2004 will be your year! Have hope.
-D
Posted by Karen_kay on January 3, 2004, at 22:42:45
In reply to (Long) He's not suppose to ask leading questions » Karen_kay, posted by DaisyM on January 1, 2004, at 14:07:41
I wish I knew how to flood my memories, or lack of. I've tried looking at photos, but I only end up feeling anxious. And when I think about things, not even consciously, I only feel anxious. Nothing else. Not anger, not saddness, NOTHING!! Just anxious! I just want that to go away, I'd be fine if it were replace with some sort of emotion. I'd feel human. Then sometimes I do feel angry, but towards my therapist, not him. That bothers me. Maybe because my therapist is the one who brought all of this up (not to say that he brought it up, but he brought it out).
But, the thing is that he doesn't let it go. In the last session he was being "direct" and I was sitting there taking it and he said "But you control the session and you can tell me to stop if you want to and that's how this relationship is different than the one you had with him. You can speak up and say no and I'll stop if you want me to." And I did want him to but I just don't think he realizes how very similar I see him to a father and I just couldn't tell him to shut up. I just wanted him to stop. I wanted to disappear. It jsut felt like the exact same thing all over again. The same thing I go through with my boyfriend when he wants to have sex and I just can't say no, even though I want to say no. I just can't speak. My voice just won't let me. And the experience is so horrible. It isn't that I'm not assertive.
Posted by fallsfall on January 4, 2004, at 9:42:38
In reply to Re: (Long) He's not suppose to ask leading questions » DaisyM, posted by Karen_kay on January 3, 2004, at 22:42:45
Karen,
You need to tell your therapist to stop when you want him to. That is how you will break this pattern. It is SAFE to tell him NO. Trust that. When he pushes and you want him to stop, say NO.
It will make a world of difference to you.
I wish you strength.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 4, 2004, at 20:26:16
In reply to Re: (Long) He's not suppose to ask leading questions » Karen_kay, posted by fallsfall on January 4, 2004, at 9:42:38
But he KNOWS I want him to stop. And in my mind I'm screaming "STOP IT" but the words just don't make their way to my mouth. I can't say it. I can't speak up. I'm just a little girl and he's the adult, all over again. And he can feed me the bs about how I have the power, or whatever, but I know it isn't true. I just feel like I'm in the same situation again.
I mean he must be saying it for a reason. Maybe I need to hear it over and over again, though I really can't understand why. I know what happened and I really don't need him to keep telling me again and again. What could he hope to gain? Does anyone know? Maybe the fact that one day I might look at him and finally say, "Oh thank you! You've finally fixed everything! Thank you! By telling me again and again, week after week, things that I already know somehow I suddenly feel better! The anxiety is now gone. I'm no longer frightened or scared. Thank you so much. You'll no longer be taking my money."
I mean it's the fact that he just repeats the stories and accounts that I've told him. That's what bothers me. As if I don't think of them enough. I'd like to move on and try to find a way to "fix" it. Not just relive it. And it's not like he says "And how did it make you feel" because I HONESTLY don't remember. He just keeps repeating the stories. I'm tires fo hearing them. It's like he just wants me to keep having nightmares. I certainly don't want that.... Well, I liked him at the beginning of the week! Guess when I see him on Tuesday it might not be so much fun, huh? Come to think of it, it never really is much fun anymore....
Posted by DaisyM on January 5, 2004, at 0:54:29
In reply to Re: (Long) He's not suppose to ask leading questions » fallsfall, posted by Karen_kay on January 4, 2004, at 20:26:16
Karen,
I can "hear" your pain and frustration! Maybe you can tell him that you can't "say" stop but you could raise your finger, or something.
I don't know why he is repeating your stories back to you -- mine doesn't do that. He will ask (very carefully) if it was hard to see such and such or if this or that triggered something...or if I'm talking about an issue, he might say I think you probably reacted to that because of this...
Ultimately, you must believe that you ARE in charge and begin to take control. Ask questions: where are we going with this? How might I move on? Could we work on positive future goals for awhile? The past will wait until you are ready to deal with it.
You DO have feelings, I can hear them in your posts. You are not heartless or less anything. What you are dealing with is really, really, painful which is why your subconscience is protecting you from it. Don't beat yourself up for "giving in" to your boyfriend or anyone else. Sometimes there just isn't the energy. But realize that your choice (you are making one)is not saying no (verses saying yes). YOU still have power. It will grow. It just takes time.
Now that the Holidays are over hopefully things will settle down for you.
I'm thinking about you.
-D
Posted by fallsfall on January 5, 2004, at 14:54:49
In reply to Re: (Long) He's not suppose to ask leading questions » fallsfall, posted by Karen_kay on January 4, 2004, at 20:26:16
"But you control the session and you can tell me to stop if you want to and that's how this relationship is different than the one you had with him. You can speak up and say no and I'll stop if you want me to."
Karen,
I know this is so hard for you. He makes you feel like the little kid, with him the nasty adult. You shouldn't have to feel like the little, abused kid any more (you shouldn't have been abused at all...). The only way that you will get out of that role, though, is to fight your way out. You ARE a fighter. You have lots of guts. You need to use those talents now to tell the abusive adult that you won't let him do that to you any more.
Karen, this IS transference. You see him as controlling and cruel. But in reality he isn't. In reality he wants to help you. But because you learned so well when you were little that you would be controlled, you have put him into that role. You are playing the role you learned so well, and have put him in the role that you are so used to seeing.It's almost like we can't see other people any other way. This is the way we have learned to see life - for you being little and controlled, for me always being wrong no matter how hard I try. Your transference with your therapist is different than my transference with my therapist because we had different experiences when we were little. I was never good enough, so now, even as an adult, I keep trying and trying but I'm still never good enough. That is how I learned to live my life - never good enough. But in order for me to be "never good enough", I need someone who will be critical - who will want more than I can do. So I put my therapist in that role. I search his face for signs of disappointment, I listen to his tone of voice for frustration or exasperation - and I find those things, even if they aren't really there. When he winces, maybe it isn't that he is disappointed in me, maybe he has an ingrown toe nail. When he sounds frustrated, maybe it isn't that I'm not doing the right thing, maybe his daughter wouldn't listen when he gave some good advice that morning. Maybe I'm seeing things that either aren't there, or certainly aren't as bad as I make them. But *I* am so used to being "not good enough" that it actually makes me comfortable to see these things - because it leaves me in a world that I understand.
For me, the solution is to hear him tell me that he's not disappointed, that I'm not failing - and to find a way to believe him. I guess I started to wonder why would he lie to me (and tell me that he wasn't disappointed in me)? What did he have to gain from that? I couldn't think of a reason, but if I was able to trust that he was a good person and a good therapist, then maybe I could believe that he was telling me the truth. And maybe I'm NOT disappointing him. Maybe I'm not intrisically "bad". Maybe I'm really OK, and either some people in my past have not recognized that truth, or maybe I misread their signals, too. When I could believe that he wasn't disappointed - that it was possible for me to NOT disappoint him - then I could see that I had been looking through my own filters instead of being able to see what was really true. But the first time I believed that he wasn't disappointed wasn't enough, nor the second, I think we've done it three times now, and I know we'll do it again and again. But now when I start to think he must be disappointed in me I stop and try to look beyond my filters to see what is really true - and at this point, I still have to ask him "You aren't disappointed in me, are you?". Then he looks at me like I have 3 heads and says "Why in the world would I be disappointed in you?". Some day I won't have to ask anymore.
So, what does this have to do with you? You have filters, too. Your filters are different from mine. Your filters say that the other person will continue to make you unhappy, even though they know that you want them to stop. You are so convinced that they will continue making you unhappy that you think that it is completely futile to ask (or tell) them to stop what they are doing. But, Karen, not everyone is like the people in your past who wouldn't stop making you unhappy. Your therapist has told you that he will stop *if you ask him to*. All you have to do is ask. And he will stop. You need to know that *your* requests matter and that people will listen. So tell him to stop. And he will prove to you that your requests matter. Let him prove that to you. Let him prove to you that when you ask him to stop that the world gets better instead of worse. Take a chance with him, and see if it works. I bet it will.
And, if you are at all like me, the high you will feel when your "Stop" makes a difference will blow your socks off.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 5, 2004, at 16:11:47
In reply to Maybe you need a signal » Karen_kay, posted by DaisyM on January 5, 2004, at 0:54:29
I can think of a finger I'd like to raise when he gets like that :) But, I can't move. I can't speak. In my mind I'm screaming "STOP IT!" but the words don't make it to my lips. And I feel like if I say something I'm avoiding the issue or I'm not being strong enough. I was the one who told him he had to push me. I mean, he's the therapist. He's the one who knows what he's doing. I sure don't. He should be able to tell from my reaction that it is too much for me to take.
Maybe I could start out the session on Tuesday with this. That would make it easier. But it always starts the same way. Typical beginning:
Him: "How was your week?"
Me: Complaints, ect. "And yours?"
Him: Complaints, ect. "Have you thought about your father?"From there it begins... No buffer really, nothing. It just starts. If I try to deny that I haven't thought about it then he begins talking about the things I have told him or talking about dreams I have told him. And he goes into vivid details. I basically just sit there in a daze most of the session anyway. Hmmm, and I wonder why my anxiety is going through the roof? Well, I did just call my Pdoc to get some anxiety meds. I haven't taken them in well over 3 months but I need something to help unclench my jaw :( It's progress! At least I'm admitting there's a problem....
Posted by Karen_kay on January 5, 2004, at 16:34:00
In reply to Re: (Long) He's not suppose to ask leading questions » Karen_kay, posted by fallsfall on January 5, 2004, at 14:54:49
But he IS a bad guy! He HAS to be. I can't be wrong about this one, just can't be :( I know and completely understand that this is transference (at its worst!!) But why do I have to fight? Is that the only possible solution? If so, that's just horrible! I feel set up! It just seems impossible at the time. I CAN'T speak. I mean, I don't even know how I manage to breathe. And I usually am not at a loss for words, so this situation is new for me. But it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to speak. And even as we sit there in silence for what seems like an eternity I still am unable to talk. Usually it lasts for aobut 15 minutes. And the jerk thinks that I'm trying to "contol the situation" by purposely being silent. He's a dreadful shrink. (I don't really mean that, he's just confused :) He obviously doesn't understand the impact of these sessions. I suppose I *could* tell him. But, I don't want to appear weak. Or look like I have feelings. Or that I'm scared. UGH!!!
I hope that one day soon you don't feel as if you aren't good enough. Your posts are always insightful. I'm glad that you had the courage to ask if he was disappointed in you. And I hope that one day you'll have the insight to know that he's not, so you won't have to ask anymore. I also hope your therapist gets his toe nail looked at and that his daughter starts taking his advice. Maybe then your sessions will begin moving a bit smoother as well. :)
Thanks for your post. I appreciate it
Karen
Posted by fallsfall on January 5, 2004, at 22:23:16
In reply to Re: (Long) He's not suppose to ask leading questions » fallsfall, posted by Karen_kay on January 5, 2004, at 16:34:00
Well, I think you do have to fight. Just my uneducated opinion, you understand.
After I read your post, all I could think of was you sitting with a large card upside down on your lap (a la Newlywed Game). At the appropriate time you hold up your card. It says "STOP".
Maybe, though, you can do this in stages. Talking about how it affects you and how you think he should stop because he knows that you want him to might be a first step. Or starting out a session saying that you don't want to talk about you father, you want to talk about [insert some other reasonably significant topic here]. Maybe the first step would be *preventing* the situation. That would require you to take control and direct what is happening, but maybe you wouldn't be so tied up that you couldn't speak. [I do understand not being able to speak - I used to sit there opening and closing my mouth trying to make the words come out. I knew exactly what words I needed to say, but I couldn't make my mouth form those words. It is an awful feeling.]
"But, I don't want to appear weak. Or look like I have feelings. Or that I'm scared. UGH!!!"
Geeze, Karen, your therapist's office is where you NEED to do these things. I wish I had your strength - I walk in his office with "weak and dependent" written all over me. Wanna trade a bit? I'll give you some weak and dependent and you can give me some strength?
I do see you making significant progress over time. You are working on incredibly hard stuff. Sometimes it is a major accomplishment just to walk through the door into a session, because you know how hard that session will be.
I asked my therapist today if I call him on the phone too much. He looked shocked and said "The short answer is NO". We talked about it a little, and he asked if I thought that he was annoyed by my calls. I said that I didn't really think that, but I just had to check. He thought that was OK. It really is getting easier. But fighting through the transference was probably the hardest work I have done in therapy.
Go, Karen! Go, Karen! Go, Karen, Go!
[That's me, cheering you on]
Posted by Karen_kay on January 5, 2004, at 23:46:59
In reply to Re: (Long) He's not suppose to ask leading questions » Karen_kay, posted by fallsfall on January 5, 2004, at 22:23:16
Well, I think you do have to fight. Just my uneducated opinion, you understand.
*I understand :) But, I'm afraid if I do actually say no, it's going to be BAD! And I mean B-A-D, bad! Like, me stomping my feet, and screaming so loud that everyone in the building can hear it, and ripping off my clothes hmmm >) well, you get the idea... I mean this has been building for quite a while, you know. And I don't think that it will just come out with me whimpering a simple "Please sir, kindly stop what you're doing." Oh no! I could be wrong, and I hope I am. Maybe I'm just being overly dramatic, but I really hate not being in control. And I fear losing control even more. And in that situation I feel like I have absolutely NO control. And if I have the power to take it back, I will. But, I just can't....
But, if I go in and say I don't want to talk about my father then he'll accuse me of avoiding the issue. He's done it before. I said I didn't want to get too heavy into it before finals, for good reason as I had finals. He said that he could understand why but that I just keep trying to put it off. If not now, then when. It isn't that I keep avoiding it, it is just that it is ALL we talk about. It is ALL I think about. It consumes my life. He seems to think that I can resolve this issue before I leave this town (in 1.5 years). I disagree. I do need to get things figure out. I have a very bad memory, to the point that I have a hard time remembering my age, I can't remember names for anything, ect... I can't even remember the house I grew up in and we didn't move at all. So, it it obviously affecting me and I need to deal with it. I just don't think the way we are dealing with it is right. It is just causing me to retreat and to be anxious and to dislike my therapist. It's causing me to not want to deal with it even more. At first, I was determined to "figure it all out." No matter what, I didn't care. I figured not knowing was worse than knowing. Now, I just want to stop. The anxiety is too much. My jaw hurts! :( I just want to unclench it, and it has been clenched for almost a month. Can you make it stop???? (Please wave your magic wand here, please...)
I'd never ask my therapist if he was annoyed by my calls. I'd be too afraid of his answer. I actually had to call him this week to change my appointment (something I vowed to never do after he didn't return my last call!!!) and he was sweet as pie on the phone. I wasn't though! I won't call him in the event of an emergency. I have my Pdoc's number and I also have a crisis number for the place he works. I'd prefer Not to talk to him if I need someone to speak with. I think he's having some countertransference issues or something going on, seriously! But, he's always reassuring me that I don't call too much, which I know. I never even ask him, he just volunteers the info. I think I've called him maybe 5 times to "talk" and maybe 7 times to schedule or rschedule appointments. I just don't want to get too close to him. I don't want him to think that I "like" him in any way. I mean we've totally discussed transference issues candidly without a problem. But, I don't want to take a chance that I become dependent on therapy. I don't want to take a chance that he lets me down. I'm keeping him at arm's length. I hope he knows it too! Serves him right. If he didn't screw up all the time, maybe I'd be a better client. (I didn't mean all of that, it's just my way of justifying it!)
I wish I had your strength - I walk in his office with "weak and dependent" written all over me. Wanna trade a bit? I'll give you some weak and dependent and you can give me some strength?
*You can gladly have some of my so-called strength. But, I don't want to be weak and dependent. (no offense) We can just throw that away, ok?
Thanks fallsfall, thanks fallsfall, thanks fallsfall thanks! [That's me thanking you! I really appreciate it!]
I see him tomorrow! Wish me luck and hope he doesn't put me away :) (And he did do that once, stupid jerk!)
Posted by fallsfall on January 6, 2004, at 8:19:47
In reply to Re: (Long) He's not suppose to ask leading questions » fallsfall, posted by Karen_kay on January 5, 2004, at 23:46:59
OK. I understand the losing control and yelling and screaming. I would just collapse in a puddle, but I can see how you would yell and scream. And I can see how losing control like that would be scary.
Can you tell him that you want to tell him to stop when he's talking about your father, but that you're afraid of yelling and screaming. You can talk about losing control for a while and what that means (that will waste some time). So you want to tell him to stop BEFORE he starts talking about your father. That you are not trying to avoid talking about your father - that you are taking a conscious step to set a limit and tell him to stop. But that for today, you have to do that before he starts. Maybe on another day you can tell him after he starts talking about your dad. If you tell him WHY you don't want to talk about him - BECAUSE you are setting a limit and taking control, it might work.
Or when he says "Have you thought about your father?" you can say "STOP" then, before it gets any farther? Or maybe that is for a couple of weeks from now.
I understand the terror. Believe me. Facing the transference and breaking through it was SOOOOOOOO hard to do. It was incredibly painful and absolutely terrifying. But, you know what? I did it and I came out the other end. And I'm proud of myself. And it makes therapy easier because I'm not so terrified that he's mad at me all the time. And I can ask when I need reassurance - and he's so sweet about giving me reassurance.
It is SOOOOOOOO hard. But... isn't the way you are living SOOOOOOOO hard? It's like taking off a bandaid - you can do it S_L_O_W_L_Y or you can do it FAST, but you HAVE to do it. And you will be so relieved when it is done.
it is a little hard to type with my fingers crosses (and yes, they are crossed right now) - so go for it!!!!!!
Falls-on-your-side
Posted by DaisyM on January 6, 2004, at 15:21:06
In reply to Re: (Long) He's not suppose to ask leading questions » fallsfall, posted by Karen_kay on January 5, 2004, at 23:46:59
>>>Like, me stomping my feet, and screaming so loud that everyone in the building can hear it, and ripping off my clothes..
So what if you did? I mean, really. And it is pretty unlikely that you will COMPLETELY lose control -- I bet you at least leave you clothes on!
I understand your fear. For me, losing control, even if it is control of the time in the session, sends me over the edge. But, maybe you could ask him what he would do if you lost control? I told my Therapist that I was afraid to cry because there was so much to cry about I was afraid I'd never stop. He said "I know. But I'm afraid you'll never feel safe enough to start. And that is worse." I even had a dream that he asked me to leave because I started to cry. I told him about the dream and he said it meant that I still didn't feel safe, and that made him sad.
I agree with Falls...this is transference, BIG TIME. I like the idea of the card, make it and take it with you! Tell yourself that you are not a little kid anymore and YOU have control over this second. And then this minute. And then the next 5 minutes. Slowly you will build up to it.
Let me know how today went. I'm thinking about you.
-D
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2004, at 16:55:45
In reply to It is OK to lose control » Karen_kay, posted by DaisyM on January 6, 2004, at 15:21:06
Oh, that is so *nice*. I think I like your therapist. If I ever lose mine, and Pfinstegg's isn't available, can I share him?
Posted by Karen_kay on January 6, 2004, at 17:04:55
In reply to It is OK to lose control » Karen_kay, posted by DaisyM on January 6, 2004, at 15:21:06
We talked. And talked. And it lasted forever. I told him that I didn't like him and that I didn't trust him. He asked if that was really true. I said that I did like him but that sometimes I trusted him but sometimes I don't.
I told him how much it upset me that he thought I was playing some sort of joke on him and he didn't call me back. I told him that it actually made me cry, and it did. He said that in the past "girls" have called him with their friends laughing in the background and he thought it was the same situation. I told him that it hurt me that he thought I would want to waste his time like that. And it did HURT me. And I swear I thought he was going to cry! He aid he was sorry and I believe him. I guess we all make mistakes, I'll let it go but when he makes me mad in the future, I'll bring it up because I'm like that. I wish I wasn't but I am.
He also said that he puts me in the situation where I need to be more assertive and say that I don't want to discuss the matter and further. And I told him that hurts me to. That he's jsut reaffirming in my head that I can't trust men, that they just continue to "set me up" and put me in situations that I have no control.
He said that he cared about me...Ahhh!!! Isn't that sweet??? And that he isn't going to hurt me. That our relationship is different than others I've had in the past. But, I don't believe him. So, sat there for about 5 minutes and processed it. But, this time I told him what I was thinking afterwards (YAHOO!!!!! I did it!!!) I said.. Well, I know that he won't hurt me. And I know why I don't trust men. And I know that logically he can't hurt me, but he's caused me alot of pain. Before I came in, I adored my father. And I still do, honestly. I'm able to seperate things. But, I just can't trust him because I think and *feel* like he's going to hurt me. And I feel like his motivations behind everything he says are manipulative. And I told him I'm just projecting my feelings, I realize this, logically. But, I just feel this way. I an't help it. I want to change it, I really do... I just don't know how... I told him that it would be helpful if before he said something he would make a statement explaining the motivations behind it. He said that then he would be giving away the tricks of the trade....
He said that my anxiety is from the last dream I had. It makes sense. That is when it started. It was a powerful dream. And it coincides with a memory that was brought up to. He says that it is my defences trying to say, "It's too early for you to remember this, you aren't ready yet." That makes sense as well. I've been avoiding thinking about the dream.
He says that if I feel that he is pushing me too hard then he will back off. But, maybe he isn't really. Maybe it is just me trying to avoid everything, as I am apt to do.
He's a really good therapist. I think I'm going to write him a thank you card now :) It was a good session. I have to call to reschedule, as I didn't have my class schedule with me. He said, I promise I'll call you back. And I believe him. I want so much to trust him. It is just so very hard. And he wants me to cry. But like you said, if I cry about the things I should cry aobut, I'm afraid I'll never stop. If I *feel* like I should about hte things I should feel about, I'm afraid I'll go insane. It's so much easier not to feel anything about the things I should feel, you know? I mean, I don't even know how I should feel aobut what happened to me. I don't want to feel bad things about my father or my mother for what happened to me because I'm afraid I won't be able to seperate those feelings from the love I have for those people. And I DO love my father. I love him so very much. And I miss him and wish he was still alive. I'd live through all of that again, jsut to have more time with him.
There, now I'm crying... Where's Mark when I need him?? :)
Posted by antigua on January 6, 2004, at 17:26:48
In reply to Neurontin, Take me away! » DaisyM, posted by Karen_kay on January 6, 2004, at 17:04:55
I haven't corresponded w/you before but I do want you to know how wonderful I think you are. You are very brave and you are taking the steps you need to--no matter how hard or impossible they may be.
I speak from experience. I haven't written this here before but maybe it's time. My father died 12 years ago. I was very close to him most of my life; he was my world when I was a little girl and I cared for him while he was dying. It wasn't until after he died that I started to realize/remember/acknowledge (whatever you want to call it) that he sexually abused me when I was a very young child. Everything was clouded by how much I loved him. My initial defense was that if I couldn't remember it, it didn't really happen, and it took my therapist many years to convince me to believe in myself and what I was remembering. There were just too many signs to ignore.
I now remember a lot more of what happened to me. I truly believe I could never have done this while he was still alive. While I have snapshots of memories the hardest part has been trying to get in touch w/my feelings about all this. I mean I loved my father more than anyone and how could someone who loved me have done these things to me?? I have been doing EMDR to reach the feelings and (un)fortunately it has really worked. I remember how badly I felt, how shamed and disgusted I felt--I never felt badly about him.
Today I had my EMDR session and it was very hard. My T was trying to get me to reach the anger, the anger that every single T, friend, counselor, etc. has said that I have but which I cannot acknowledge or let go of, or let out. I am too afraid to let the anger come out because I am afraid that I will lose control. We talked a lot about losing control. You know, the old "what's the worst that could happen" talk. I don't know what the worst is but I cannot face it, it is much too frightening. My T says that's the little girl talking and I am safe now, but it still feels exactly the same. It's as if I let the anger out then all the walls and defenses I have so carefully constructed will come tumbling down. And if the walls come down, what do I have left?
My regular therapist says that we will go as slow as I need to. But after 12 years, even I think it's about time I let it go. I still can't seem to do that, which leads me to believe that there is still so much I don't know and so much I still have to be afraid of.
As to my mother, I haven't told her about all this because I haven't wanted that relationship to change. I'm not strong enough for that either. Again, I love her very much.
In any case, you are not alone. My biggest obstacle has been reconciling my feelings of great love for my father with the beast that he would become when he came into my room at night.
I hope this isn't too much for you. I wish you well--you are doing a really good job.
antigua
Posted by DaisyM on January 6, 2004, at 17:28:34
In reply to Re: It is OK to lose control » DaisyM, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2004, at 16:55:45
Ok, but only if you agree to *not* be a more perfect client than me.
Perfection, BTW, was the topic of conversation today. He agree's I'm perfect. He just doesn't agree that this is a good thing! :)
Posted by DaisyM on January 6, 2004, at 17:40:55
In reply to Neurontin, Take me away! » DaisyM, posted by Karen_kay on January 6, 2004, at 17:04:55
Karen -- here is my shoulder and I'm wearing cashmere -- it is soft and cuddly and you can stay as long as you need/want...
It sounds like a really hard, really good session. I'm proud of what you did and did so well! Good for you! You made him think and that is huge.
Trust is an ambiguous creature. It can be fleeting and it has so many levels. You'll get there. Think of the trust it took to say the things you said today.
I know you miss your dad. This is really hard and so confusing. It is totally ok to love and miss HIM and hate the things that happened. My Therapist today told me healing takes a really, really long time. We (I love that he says we!) have to grieve it all first and then begin to move past it. And stay sane while we do this. So slow is the best course of action.
Figuring out the source of your anxiety is a good step towards resolving it. Tonight and tomorrow will probably be hard but keep posting and writing. We are here for you.
Warm thoughts.
-D
Posted by DaisyM on January 6, 2004, at 17:50:57
In reply to Re: Neurontin, Take me away! » Karen_kay, posted by antigua on January 6, 2004, at 17:26:48
antigua,
Your post was very brave. It sounds like you have had quite a struggle. I'm sorry for all that you have gone through.
I'm curious, have you thought about telling your mom? My Therapist asked me recently if I would ever tell mine. Emphatically, the answer is NO. I can't see what good it would do. I'm sure it would just cause more disruption.
Having a loving relationship with your father, aside from the abuse, really makes it more confusing, don't you think? My dad, BTW, is still living. He happens to live pretty far away from me though so I don't see him much. But in the past 20 years we have gotten so much closer. I feel like all that is threatened now that I'm trying to sort out how the past is affecting the present, especially my current ability to cope with life.
I wish you well on your journey.
Daisy
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