![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 62 to 86 of 91. Go back in thread:
Posted by LegWarmers on April 5, 2006, at 22:32:31
In reply to Hugs, posted by verne on April 5, 2006, at 22:24:35
> When I don't feel like hugging anybody I wear something uninviting, maybe spiky.Thats great!
>
> Another sure fire way to stop hugs before they can happen is to attach a hoola hoop around your midsection. This gives people the dual message: "I'm Fun" but "Keep Your Distance".My fav!!!
I love your posts, you always make me laugh
Posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 22:38:21
In reply to Re: careful deneb... » special_k, posted by Deneb on April 5, 2006, at 20:32:59
> > if you poke hard enough
> > you might see him shake
> > and then what?
> > you will feel hurt, disappointed, let down, and full of rage.> You mean I could make Bob angry? I think I would be upset if Bob got angry at me.
That wasn't quite what I meant. Lets take a time when you get blocked. In your better moments you understand why you were blocked. But when you are blocked (and hurting about that) sometimes you send lots of emails about how much it hurts to be blocked and begging to be unblocked. And so you think you want to be unblocked (and yeah, you probably do). But then if you were unblocked for having sent those emails then you would probably (in the long term) not have so much respect / love for him. Because it is hard to respect someone who is swayed too much from that kind of pressure. (Not ruling out that maybe Bob goes to the other extreme sometimes). Not sure how much sense I'm making.
My thought was more that if you see him as a rock and poke and realise that he isn't the rock you thought he was then you will feel really let down and hurt and it is you who will likely feel angry.
Some people talk about it as how the trouble with idealisation is that it can too easily swing to disillusionment and devaluation if you perceive that the idealised object (bob) hasn't lived up to your expectations... Not sure how helpful that is...
> I know, but I'm not sure that I really *know* it, if you know what I mean.sure i know what you mean. i think i have trouble too sometimes.
> I don't think it's disrespectful to *ask* to hug. I would think it disrespectful to not ask.i agree with you. i don't think it is disrespectful to ask for a hug.
but i do think that you know the answer is going to be 'no'.
and if you saw him going around hugging babblers all the time you would probably lose some respect for him...
(i know you aren't thinking he should go around hugging babblers all the time... but consistency etc)
> > but you will have noticed it is a triggering subject for some...
> Yeah, I don't really understand it.i think it can go back to abuse stuff for a lot of people. people who have had their boundaries violated in the past can find the idea of pushing boundaries to be triggering for them...
> > and i guess it is about how when you got hammie you said you used to poke at him and try and make him do things...
> Wow, I can't believe you actually remembered that.:-)
sure i do.
> > then you got attached to him and didn't do that to him anymore 'cause you didn't want to hurt him.
> I learned I shouldn't and can't force him to do things.yeah. and maybe you figured that it wasn't so nice to poke at him either?
> > and sometimes i wonder if you try and poke at bob and make him do things...
> I can try, but I'm not sure I can make him do things.yeah. he does seem to have fairly firm boundaries...
> I guess what you're saying is that if I really do love Dr. Bob, I would respect that he doesn't want a gift or maybe a hug.yeah. i'm saying that if you really do love or care about someone (hammie, or dr bob, or me, or racer, or anyone really)...
then try not to poke em cause it can hurt.but yeah... i've been known to poke.
i agree there is no harm in asking...
but i guess i'd wonder why you would ask when (i think you understand?) why the answer is probably going to be 'no'.
and i guess i think that if you understood why the answer would probably be 'no' then you wouldn't ask.
but really... that's probably my sh*t...
yeah no harm in asking...
though you might find IRL that you don't want to ask after all (online disinhibition effect and all);-)
Posted by Racer on April 6, 2006, at 0:09:07
In reply to Re: Boundaries -- both personal and professional, posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 2:40:15
>
> i used to have a friend who used to tickle me suddenly.
>
> it hurt kinda and i didn't like it too much but i guess 'cause i was laughing...
>
> but i was always alert around her and never could relax...
>
> never could let my guard down.
>
Alas, I am apparently more of a space cadet than you are, because I couldn't manage to keep my guard UP...I was scribing at a dressage show, (which means writing down all the judges comments as someone rode a test) for a judge I really liked, but I'd be watching each horse on the way into the arena, just off in "what a cutie" land, and so when she'd blow her whistle to signal it was OK to start the test, I'd be startled. Now, I have a BIG startle reflex, as you might guess, so I'd jump a bit every time. And then relax -- just in time for her to poke me in the ribs... After a couple of rides, I could tell she was waiting for me to get distracted by the horse before blowing the whistle, too.
Fortunately, though, I really liked her. Just adored her, in fact -- my absolute favorite of all the judges I ever scribed for...
Ah, mem'ries...
Posted by Dinah on April 6, 2006, at 7:49:50
In reply to careful deneb..., posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 19:33:20
> so IMO appreciate what he has done
> and show the appreciation by being respectful
> respect.It's a hot button issue for me, not because of abuse but because of systematic ignoring of the boundaries growing up. To the point where I never felt cared about as a person, but as an extension of the person who claimed to love me. I always say that any rebellion on my part was like a rebellion of a right elbow. One's right elbow isn't supposed to have needs or wants or boundaries of their own.
It's not that I think there's anything wrong in asking for a hug with someone who appears open to the idea. But when someone, overtly or in subtle graciousness, has indicated a reluctance, then IMHO sensitivity to another's feelings should guide. Not that I have always been sensitive in the stress of real life situations. But it's my goal.
I can't describe it but maybe it's like subject and object vs. I and thou.
I wish growing up that I had felt more like a thou.
Posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 10:44:40
In reply to Thank you » special_k, posted by Dinah on April 6, 2006, at 7:49:50
yeah. it is a hard one.
i don't think my mother ever appreciated me as a seperate entity. but then i don't know that she is capable of that. i don't know that she understands. imo it has brought her much pain in life.as an example...
i borrowed a fair bit (imo) of money off her to relocate. and i was grateful for that yes. especially since i know that my mother saved money when she was on welfare (so yeah auntiemel i guess that is why i get so funny about saving and how everyone can save to be a millionare because i guess that is what my mother was trying to do but we were on welfare and if you are managing to save money on welfare then imo basic needs are comprimised....)
but then... depends what you mean by basic.
i remember being dragged around town in order to get a 50c saving on an item of clothing. my mother would make a big (and very loud deal) of that 50c saving. it was a source of embarrasment and shame to me she would say in a loud voice 'that is 50c cheaper at this shop' when 'this shop' was 40 minutes walk away all the way across town. and i would have to walk it. and listen to her say such things in a loud voice (she seemed to think she was doing other shoppers a favour) to inform the shop assistant. do you think they gave a f*ck? they just wondered what the f*ck her problem was - as did i. but when i was 5, when i was 7, when i was 13 it was just a source of shame.
and especially when it was clear that quality (or some thing like a hideous pattern on the side was comprimised for that 50c saving)
any wonder i don't give a sh*t and i just buy what i like (even though you can get the same thing for $50 cheaper if you are prepared to cross the road just abouts now????)
and so i have swung to the other extreme. which is just as bad in its own way.... but isn't it understandable given that history?
any way...
that is my shame my pain my problem...
back to my mother...
i borrowed money off her to relocate, and i knew how she (we) sacrificed in order to come by that money. in fact... that makes it worse in a way. the knowledge that i got the f*ck away from that crazyness and yet it has continued for her. she is oh so proud of getting this or that for 50c whereas for me it would be a source of shame that it is so very important to her... that a 50c or 20c saving is so very important to her... and you know what she said to me as she wrote me out travellers cheques??? 'i saved when you were a kid so i would be able to give you money for something like this'. and she did give me money to relocate. and it was actually very reasonable (nicer than as a matter of fact, i didn't have to worry and that is absolutely f*cking amazing when you consider that she manages to eat for probably around 10 or 15 dollars a week).
and it broke my heart (just abouts). it really did. because 50c when i was a kid... would have meant so much to me at times... and she honestly can't comprehend that. she can't comprehend...
anyway... i was amazed at her doing that... giving me money so i didn't have to worry about relocating. and when i arrived... i sent her friend an email. why? because she doesn't have email (part of saving clearly). but her friend does, and so i promised to keep in touch via her friends email. and so as soon as i arrived i sent her an email. quite a long detailed one that i thought she would really appreciate. to show my appreciation. because i was feeling a bit bad... she doesn't do anything nice for herself.
anyway...
she takes sleeping tablets now (valium i think). and her friend phoned her and read her the email. and she listened... and promptly forgot.
she rang my father and harrased him and complained at him (according to him) about how i never emailed / contacted her.
so he pressured me to get in touch with her.
i emailed her agian and said i had emailed but hadn't heard back. she checked with her friend. she was aware i emailed her and she forgot...
AND SHE WAS STILL GOING OFF AT ME ABOUT HOW MUCH IT HURT FOR ME TO HAVE NOT CONTACTED HER. she knew that i had BUT SHE FELT THAT I HAD NOT CONTACTED HER and she was unable to reconcile those two things...
and that is my mother.
she can't do any better.
please god don't let me be like that
:-(
:-(
:-(
Posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 10:50:20
In reply to Thank you » special_k, posted by Dinah on April 6, 2006, at 7:49:50
sorry. i just wanted to say... that my needs were disregarded.
and for what?
she saved and saved and saved.
for us to squander now because we have gone to the other extreme... because she was at such an extreme... and just in case you think it is about pressure now (my stepmother 'jokes' about how they are investing in their retirement - like i am going to support them when my father stopped supporting me when i was 7 and then gave me a bit of money - most of it reimbursed to relocate) my mother... went without in order to save... and she gives me money to what? to squander (according to her views of spending / saving) and yeah thats what i do, have done...
and i feel ill.
and i feel like i have let her down.
how many years in my room... how many years being hauled across town... was it worth it?
she sends me a card
'just do your best'
your best is ok.
wtf.
she is sick.
how can i hate her?
goddamn it hurts so much.
Posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 10:59:17
In reply to Re: Thank you, posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 10:50:20
and thats got nothing to do with anything...
but i am drunk and raving...
and at this point it is probably a good thing. because you get drunk and people talk... and people help you feel accepted at times... and apparantly there is this grad school phenomenon and i can't remember what it is called but it basically captures the 'i'm so stupid and i got in 'cause of luck and soon enough peoples are going to realise how stupid i am and regret me' phenomenon that i am going through... and apparantly everybody goes through this... and i had a frank talk with this guy about how it can help when people coax you through it and maybe how you get less coaxing as a girl (oh my god am i becomming / convering people to be raving feminists)... but how everybody feels that way and it is okay. it is okay. and i am okay. and i need to try more 'cause i'm doing okay.
raving raving...
boundaries (for those still with us...)
yeah.
hard as a little kid 'cause you need your boundaries respected. but then... as a little kid it is supposed to be ok to ask for hugs. to need hugs. to need people to just unconditionally love you etc.
then when you grow up / as you grow up... all of a sudden it isn't okay anymore :-(
i reminded of this movie... life of marylin munroe... apparantly... her therapist used to hold her. just hold her. while she went off to sleep. nothing sexual. just holding her... i have sympathy... trouble is with adults physiological responses come into play and things can get confusing (especially in light of abuse)... but it is so damned hard.
when what we want is just to be held...
and i have sympathy.
and it hurts so much to think it can never happen 'cause i'm an adult now. i'm not im not. but the body is :-( the body is :-( and that is an end to it.
and i don't know...
but life sucks sometimes. it does.
Posted by cricket on April 6, 2006, at 12:24:38
In reply to Re: Thank you, posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 10:44:40
Oh yes.
Mother boundary issues - big one for me.
Perhaps I should start a post in relationships.
Come on over if you feel like ranting some more.
Posted by Deneb on April 6, 2006, at 15:30:26
In reply to Re: careful deneb... » Deneb, posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 22:38:21
Whatever happens, I think we'll all have a fun time. I'm sure I won't get angry or upset if Dr. Bob would rather not hug. I think I have to ask or else I might regret not asking for the rest of my life. I just have to try. :-)
(Dr. Bob, please don't tell me here whether you will accept my hug or not, I would rather you tell me in person. :-) )
I can't wait to ask Dr. Bob if I can hug him! Hehehe. It will be so fun! I'm so happy!
Deneb*
Posted by Poet on April 6, 2006, at 15:35:58
In reply to We'll have a fun time whatever happens, posted by Deneb on April 6, 2006, at 15:30:26
Hi Deneb,
I think you are absolutely right- it will be fun whatever happens.
It's okay to ask Dr. Bob for a hug, but please don't leap into his arms if he says yes. ;-)
Poet
p.s. the only hugs I allow are safe cyber ones. You can always hug Dr. Bob through cyberspace if he says no.
Posted by Deneb on April 6, 2006, at 15:43:11
In reply to Re: We'll have a fun time whatever happens » Deneb, posted by Poet on April 6, 2006, at 15:35:58
> Hi Deneb,
>
> I think you are absolutely right- it will be fun whatever happens.
>
> It's okay to ask Dr. Bob for a hug, but please don't leap into his arms if he says yes. ;-)LOL, I won't do that, promise. :-)
>
> Poet
>
> p.s. the only hugs I allow are safe cyber ones. You can always hug Dr. Bob through cyberspace if he says no.Thanks for letting me know Poet. :-) I'm still unsure of whether or not I want hugs from Babblers. I think I'll know better when we meet. It will be okay because I'm sure we will ask each other before doing any hugging.
Deneb*, who sees no problem in declining hugs. :-)
Posted by Alex Elliott on April 6, 2006, at 22:21:29
In reply to Re: I wonder why Dr. Bob won't accept my scarf, posted by zazenduck on April 4, 2006, at 18:33:33
Hi zazenduck,
I'm not a regular poster, but I read here almost everyday. I just wanted to say: Good Point! It very much seems to me that Dr. Bob continues to engage about this (the scarf). Have you read any Eric Berne? "Games People Play" ? I often think of his ideas, in regard to this website. But perhaps I'm just being paranoid. Still, when I read this post by you, I was surprised and pleased. I think you may be on to something.
Sincerely,
AE> It almost seems like he wants to continue to engage with you about this. Wouldn't it have been simpler to take the gift say thank you and not make an issue about it? (Oh and don't forget to send a thank you note)
>
> Dr Bob doesn't always see social norms the way others do....it's just part of being Dr Bob.
>
> Refusing to accept it just makes it into a bigger deal and continues the dialogue with all this wondering why! I can see a therapist reacting in this way but a forum owner??
>
> Of course Mrs Bob may have a strict no gifts from girls under 25 policy for Bob and she may have laid down the law!! But geez it was a scarf not a set of underwear!
>
> I like you Deneb. I admire your spirit. PLEASE don't let this upset you and get yourself blocked or ruin your trip to Toronto,ok?> It almost seems like he wants to continue to engage with you about this. Wouldn't it have been simpler to take the gift say thank you and not make an issue about it? (Oh and don't forget to send a thank you note)
>
> Dr Bob doesn't always see social norms the way others do....it's just part of being Dr Bob.
>
> Refusing to accept it just makes it into a bigger deal and continues the dialogue with all this wondering why! I can see a therapist reacting in this way but a forum owner??
>
> Of course Mrs Bob may have a strict no gifts from girls under 25 policy for Bob and she may have laid down the law!! But geez it was a scarf not a set of underwear!
>
> I like you Deneb. I admire your spirit. PLEASE don't let this upset you and get yourself blocked or ruin your trip to Toronto,ok?
Posted by Phillipa on April 6, 2006, at 23:01:50
In reply to Re: I wonder why Dr. Bob won't accept my scarf, posted by Alex Elliott on April 6, 2006, at 22:21:29
Interesting and true about the change of topic. Love Phillipa
Posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 23:36:11
In reply to Re: I wonder why Dr. Bob won't accept my scarf, posted by Alex Elliott on April 6, 2006, at 22:21:29
> It very much seems to me that Dr. Bob continues to engage about this (the scarf).
> > It almost seems like he wants to continue to engage with you about this. Wouldn't it have been simpler to take the gift say thank you and not make an issue about it? (Oh and don't forget to send a thank you note)
it might be simpler in the short term...
but it might be a lot more complicated in the long term (if he accepts a gift from one...re: engaging with the topic...
it is a tricky one.
something i really benefit from here... is being able to talk about what is on my mind honestly. shame is a big thing for me. shame around my thoughts, feelings, and behaviours. if i talk about what is on my mind and find that people don't judge me (and find that people jump in and say 'i've been thinking / feeling / doing similarly myself) then it normalises my experience and i feel a lot more normal and acceptable and understandable and a whole heap happier in myself.
people seem to benefit to being able to talk about transference issues / boundary issues etc over on the psychology board.
re: him... that is a hard one... doesn't quite belong over on psychology but imo similar issues... i commend him for trying to get people to engage with deneb about this (at least that is the way i take it). it isn't so much that he is trying to encourage it or anything, but imo it is nice that he isnt' trying to sweep it under the carpet / ignore it.
if he did that...
then deneb (and others who think / feel / behave similarly) might have a lot more shame etc going on...
i think it is useful.
just my 2c...
Posted by gabbi~1 on April 6, 2006, at 23:53:53
In reply to Re: just my opinion (fwiw)..., posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 23:36:11
I really liked those posts Special K
Good insight!
Thank you
Posted by special_k on April 7, 2006, at 0:17:09
In reply to Re: just my opinion (fwiw)... » special_k, posted by gabbi~1 on April 6, 2006, at 23:53:53
> I really liked those posts Special K
> Good insight!
> Thank youwelcome. in fact... thank you. hard for me to know sometimes. sometimes i am not sure whether i am harming or helping. i guess... deneb reminds me of me when i was her age... so much at times... and so it is hard because i try and convey to her what i wish someone could have conveyed to me (though i get in moods sometimes and don't do so well) but sometimes i'm not sure whether i'm harming or helping 'cause i'm not sure if i'm projecting my old stuff on deneb or if she really is so very uncannily similar to me at her age...
hard to know...
but talking through this kind of stuff really helps me.
'cause i have sympathy for the questions...
and i understand why you need to know this stuff...
and i also understand just how jolly hard it can be to come up with a reasonable answer / understanding of this stuff...
and so her questions get me thinking through stuff...
which is actually really helpful to me...and i'm pleased that other people get something from my ravings sometimes...
'cause i do poke (over on politics especially) :-(
and...
sometimes i do feel like i just go around harming :-(so thank you so much
((((((((((((gabbi)))))))))))
Posted by gabbi~1 on April 7, 2006, at 1:19:23
In reply to Re: just my opinion (fwiw)... » gabbi~1, posted by special_k on April 7, 2006, at 0:17:09
Naww
thank you ((((Special K))))
I also liked what you said About Wittgenstein and if you're vague enough, you'll generations of different interpretations.
That's so true, of everything
The Bible (though I guess that's more language)
Nostradamus
The whole world is just a big rorschac test : )
Posted by special_k on April 7, 2006, at 1:30:39
In reply to Re: just my opinion (fwiw)... » special_k, posted by gabbi~1 on April 7, 2006, at 1:19:23
:-)
> I also liked what you said About Wittgenstein and if you're vague enough, you'll generations of different interpretations.
yep. you don't even have to try and create confusion for confusion to be created...
> The whole world is just a big rorschac test : )
yes indeedie
Posted by zazenduck on April 7, 2006, at 11:26:11
In reply to Re: just my opinion (fwiw)... » gabbi~1, posted by special_k on April 7, 2006, at 1:30:39
http://www.qwantz.com/index.pl?comic=190
> :-)
>
> > I also liked what you said About Wittgenstein and if you're vague enough, you'll generations of different interpretations.
>
> yep. you don't even have to try and create confusion for confusion to be created...
>
> > The whole world is just a big rorschac test : )
>
> yes indeedie
>
>
Posted by zazenduck on April 7, 2006, at 11:32:01
In reply to Re: I wonder why Dr. Bob won't accept my scarf, posted by Alex Elliott on April 6, 2006, at 22:21:29
Posted by NikkiT2 on April 7, 2006, at 11:34:07
In reply to Re: just my opinion (fwiw)... » special_k, posted by zazenduck on April 7, 2006, at 11:26:11
Posted by verne on April 7, 2006, at 14:39:51
In reply to Re: just my opinion (fwiw)... » special_k, posted by zazenduck on April 7, 2006, at 11:26:11
Thanks for the cartoon link. I really like the logical fallacy series - finally a way to learn logic through comics. I bookmarked the page and plan to study further.
verne
Posted by 10derHeart on April 7, 2006, at 21:39:08
In reply to We'll have a fun time whatever happens, posted by Deneb on April 6, 2006, at 15:30:26
I agree, we will :-)
And you know, there are altenatives to hugs.
Handshakes can be nice. They are perhaps easier to "read" - if the other person feels like doing that or not, I mean - as you can just see if they extend their hand when you meet them. A little less intimate and awkward, not so up close and personal as a hug. Allowing more distance, yet still human contact that says, "I'm reaching out to you, " as the person is - literally. Of course, Dr. Bob may not be a hand shaker, anyway. But it's probably more likely than a hugger of Babblers, for the reasons special k has spelled out so well, and just being as it's such a social norm for most.
Even a nice smile in person, and a friendly, "Good to meet you, Deneb," (with or without a handshake) can be surprisingly satisfying. Smiles, as well as a warm tone of voice, can be quite comfy, and very nice to recall afterwards.
I'll admit I'm thinking a lot about past and present therapists when I write this. No, Dr. Bob is no Babbler's therapist (that we know of...;-)) yet as posts have discussed before, there are similarites in the ways some may think of him and how he is important in a way unique from others in posters' lives. So, if an opportunity comes for kind words, a smile or two, and maybe a handshake, those seemingly commonplace social gestures can turn out quite better than you'd expect.
For example, I can still remember my ex-T's smile and how his voice sounded speaking my name, just to call me from the waiting room or something, and I haven't seem him for nearly two years. With my T. now, as I'm leaving, he will shake my hand when I initiate that, and often pats me on the back or squeezes my shoulder, etc. (Hugging is not in the picture right now. It may or may not ever be for several reasons (none of them bad) but that topic is for the psych boards, so...)
I have a great dentist, who is very warm and friendly, yet appropriately reserved and professional at the same time. Contradiction? Not really. He's not my friend, he's not my therapist, yet we've know each other a while now, and well, dentistry is rather intimate, in it's own way. (Just like Babbling about the personal stuff as we do, is very intimate in its own way...) He just has a way of looking you in the eye, greeting you very politely and kindly, and giving a firm, warm handshake. Come to think of it, it's civility. It's this good balance of treating me as an individual with feelings, yet there's no uncomfortable over-familiarity and he knows just where to stop so we both feel good about the interaction.
My point is, hugging is not *the* only possible gesture that can happen when we meet each other and Dr. Bob in Toronto. Heck, certain looks and simple statements of respect and validation can be better than a (potentially) brief and uncertain hug, and the cool part is, they can turn into fond memories. Any time I choose, I can remember my T's reassuring voice and/or handshake. It's very helpful, and doesn't push against new boundary areas for him as it's all in my thoughts....
Stay open to the experience, Deneb. There are many possibilities to connect with the other Babblers and Dr. Bob. Which IMO, when you strip away everything else, is all you really want to do.
"For you, connection is *huge*" ....my T. likes to say.
Posted by Deneb on April 7, 2006, at 22:06:31
In reply to Alternatives to hugs (long) » Deneb, posted by 10derHeart on April 7, 2006, at 21:39:08
Your post made me smile. :-)
I think you're right about not needing a hug to feel a connection. I think I will be happy just to see Dr. Bob in person.
Seeing him and Babblers in real life is going to be very exciting! I can't wait! I can just imagine it.
Even shaking hands will be a big deal to me. I haven't had any human contact in over a year I think. I think the last time was when I was in the hospital and my Mom held my hand.
I can't wait to find out what happens! Will I ask Dr. Bob for a hug? Will he hug me or shake my hand? Will I bring the scarf to show him before I donate it to the less fortunate? Will I love Dr. Bob in real life?
Deneb*
Posted by special_k on April 8, 2006, at 7:09:02
In reply to Alternatives to hugs (long) » Deneb, posted by 10derHeart on April 7, 2006, at 21:39:08
hey 10
cool post :-)
got me thinkingfunnily enough i'm one of these people who find hugs less intimate than eye contact...
but then depends on the setting etc.
and there is some strangeness in that all by itself
sigh.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
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