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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by whiterabbit on May 18, 2003, at 16:56:04
In reply to Re: intuition is telling me to quit meds » bookgurl99, posted by WorryGirl on May 17, 2003, at 19:40:01
I've been considering whether to open my mouth about this and obviously, I've decided to butt in.
I think it's a mistake for you, WorryGirl, to have the impression that all medication is bad and no medication is good. I don't think you should be so determined to "somehow make it without meds." If you're really miserable and have been for quite awhile, try to keep an open mind about medication instead of saying, "No thanks, I don't want a life-jacket, if I can't make it to shore on my own I'd rather just drown."
What's the point of that?I have a friend who's mother is obviously bipolar.
I recognize many of the symptoms from my own illness, the signs are pronounced and classic. Sometimes she's too depressed and hung over to get out of bed for days. Other times, even though she's in serious financial trouble, she'll go on wild spending sprees, maxing out credit card after credit card. While she's fairly stable most of the time, she can get totally out of control, and often her family has to pick up the pieces.Still, this woman doesn't want to rely on daily medication. She proclaims that she's managing to live without it, which is true, but she's paying a very high price for her stubborness. Her kids have forgiven her a thousand times for calling at 2:00 am in a manic rage, but they truly resent her for making them so miserable. She can't keep a job and the bank is about to take her house.
Her life is a terrible mess but at least she's not relying on medication, by God, she's getting by without it.I know this is a dramatic example and may not apply to you in any way. Like Greg, I realize that I need psychiatric medication because the unmedicated Gracie is one sick pup. Your circumstances might be different, and you are following a traditional practice in medicine by first applying a "conservative" approach - psychotherapy. But if psychotherapy doesn't help enough, do consider medication - don't rule it out completely.
-Gracie
Posted by leeran on May 18, 2003, at 18:01:03
In reply to Re: intuition is telling me to quit meds » WorryGirl, posted by whiterabbit on May 18, 2003, at 16:56:04
"I realize that I need psychiatric medication because the unmedicated Gracie is one sick pup."
I realized that Lee is one sick pup without - just within the last two months. And I'm still paying the price (meaning, trying to get myself back out of the abyss).
Although I was one of the first ones to post a response on this thread, I want to make sure that I make it clear that, although going "med-less" is my "fantasy," it's simply not a possibility as I've gotten older (i.e. over forty). I do understand the attraction and it continually haunts me, but it isn't something I would try again. i.e. I like peanuts in the shell, but inevitably, they make me ill a few days later. Of course, the longer I go without eating them the memory of feeling lousy fades away - but the result is ALWAYS the same upon giving in to temptation. As my husband is wont to tell me (when I lament the "on meds/off drugs" dilemma): "Why did the man finally stop beating his head against the wall? Because it felt so much better to finally stop for good."
I definitely don't advise dropping any medication cold turkey (unless it's one that stays in your system for 24 hours or less). I took a nosedive when I went off of Wellbutrin SR (due to a misunderstanding) in late March.
I just wanted to make sure that my original post wasn't implying that you should consider a route that could be detrimental to your health. I did go without Prozac for several months while doing yoga - however, we had a family crisis of sorts, and no amount of yoga could have gotten me through that time (and it didn't - it's when I stopped going and eventually had to go back on medications).
Whatever you decide to do - best wishes.
Posted by WorryGirl on May 18, 2003, at 19:26:05
In reply to Re: intuition is telling me to quit meds » WorryGirl, posted by whiterabbit on May 18, 2003, at 16:56:04
> I've been considering whether to open my mouth about this and obviously, I've decided to butt in.
> I think it's a mistake for you, WorryGirl, to have the impression that all medication is bad and no medication is good. I don't think you should be so determined to "somehow make it without meds." If you're really miserable and have been for quite awhile, try to keep an open mind about medication instead of saying, "No thanks, I don't want a life-jacket, if I can't make it to shore on my own I'd rather just drown."
> What's the point of that?
>
> I have a friend who's mother is obviously bipolar.
> I recognize many of the symptoms from my own illness, the signs are pronounced and classic. Sometimes she's too depressed and hung over to get out of bed for days. Other times, even though she's in serious financial trouble, she'll go on wild spending sprees, maxing out credit card after credit card. While she's fairly stable most of the time, she can get totally out of control, and often her family has to pick up the pieces.
>
> Still, this woman doesn't want to rely on daily medication. She proclaims that she's managing to live without it, which is true, but she's paying a very high price for her stubborness. Her kids have forgiven her a thousand times for calling at 2:00 am in a manic rage, but they truly resent her for making them so miserable. She can't keep a job and the bank is about to take her house.
> Her life is a terrible mess but at least she's not relying on medication, by God, she's getting by without it.
>
> I know this is a dramatic example and may not apply to you in any way. Like Greg, I realize that I need psychiatric medication because the unmedicated Gracie is one sick pup. Your circumstances might be different, and you are following a traditional practice in medicine by first applying a "conservative" approach - psychotherapy. But if psychotherapy doesn't help enough, do consider medication - don't rule it out completely.
> -Gracie
Thanks, Gracie. I would never consider you to be butting in.I have had a fear of meds (mostly a fear of dependency on the meds more than the meds themselves).
I am starting to believe that I am going to need them, though, and it will be something I bring up to the p-therapist. One thing she said that made me feel better already about calling her was that if she felt I needed something more or that someone else might be able to help me more, she would refer me to them.
I didn't bring up manic-depression on the phone, just my social anxieties, bulimia and GAD, but I'm going to have to bring it up. I've been blaming these mood swings on PMDD, too, but the reality is, my swings are getting continually more damaging and worse. I had something traumatic happen to me 3 weeks ago (unrelated to my moods) that I won't go into here, but since that time I've swung into one of my worst depressions. And my husband is barely speaking to me this past week (because of my dire mood). There has been too much going on at home, I haven't had enough support and I'm falling to pieces. Socially, I feel emptier and lonelier than ever. My husband used to try to be sympathetic but he's lost all tolerance for my tearful longings now.
I've put on another 5 lb. and when I mentioned doing some heavy-duty dieting for a week, he actually said, without realizing what he said, "I'd rather have you fat then dieting". Then he caught himself and said, "Of course, I think you look great and don't need to diet". Just one more douse of gasoline and I'll be calling 911 (just kidding - I shouldn't joke about it but that's sort of how I feel).
I am nervous, but kind of looking forward to my therapy session. It's in the pretty part of town, too!
Yes, I've been miserable, but there is hopefully some hope. Have meds made a big difference for you? How do they affect your manic rages?
I hope you don't mind me asking, but when people meet you for the first time do you seem pretty normal (this ? probably sounds strange)? Does it take long for people to know you have a mood disorder? Or is it something that really only those close to you notice and feel?
I ask this because I wonder if, socially, being medicated might help me.
Posted by bookgurl99 on May 18, 2003, at 20:43:57
In reply to Re: what 'supplements' i'm looking into » bookgurl99, posted by katia on May 18, 2003, at 15:32:25
> Hi Books.
> you know if you feel you need to try this, then go for it (under the guidance and support of your therapist). I feel the meds may not be working IN PART because of your resistance to them.Hmm, you just gave me an idea about what my therapist and psychiatrist may think when I make this announcement.
I'm not resistant to meds; I've been on them for 3 years running. If I didn't have life-impairing side effects, I'd still do it.
Being off meds is becoming hard, btw. I'm having flashes of anger and feeling really emotional, in conjunction with dizziness. I hope it balances out real soon.
books
Posted by bookgurl99 on May 18, 2003, at 20:55:32
In reply to intuition is telling me to quit meds, posted by bookgurl99 on May 16, 2003, at 1:25:19
I am just starting to have moments of normal brain feeling.
On the plus side, my positive feelings are more intense. I've having more 'fun,' talking more, am caring more than I did on meds.
On the down side, I'm having bouts of dizziness, more migraines (daily), and bouts of intense anger. I'm also somewhat surprised to feel the intensity of panic when I'm faced with an uncomfortable situation. (I have a few anxiety triggers.)
I had a _major_ fight with my partner today. On one level, it's an important discussion, but on another I behaved irrationally (threw something), which I have _never_ done before, and I'm sure she's fearful of having another 'productive discussion.' I don't think this would have happened on meds. I'm hoping it's a passing thing. On the other hand, on Zoloft, the discussion would not have been brought up at all because I would have been so easily pacified.
*sigh*
books
Posted by Dinah on May 18, 2003, at 21:53:19
In reply to how it's going -- 2 days off, posted by bookgurl99 on May 18, 2003, at 20:55:32
The first little while is the worst. It settles down after about a month or so. The question is if it settles down enough to be bearable. Only time will tell. Make sure you keep a mood log to bring to therapist.
Posted by whiterabbit on May 18, 2003, at 22:05:56
In reply to Re: intuition is telling me to quit meds » whiterabbit, posted by WorryGirl on May 18, 2003, at 19:26:05
Medication has made all the difference for me. Although my therapist has been a big help - she's given me the courage to deal with my dissolving marriage, and it feels so good to have this wonderful person in MY corner, on MY side - no amount of therapy or analysis would have been able to completely overcome the chemical imbalance in my brain. Although I was able to "get by" for many years without medication, I was growing increasingly unstable without treatment. About 3 years ago, a traumatic incident pushed me right over the edge, and I began to deteriorate fast. Although I worked as long as I could, it became obvious to everyone that there was something very wrong with me, and I finally quit my job before I was fired. My behavior was erratic, bizarre and sometimes dangerous. I was hospitalized three times, and went right back to the business of trying to drink and drug myself to death each time I was released. Nobody thought I was going to make it, including me. I didn't even want to "make it", I just wanted it to end. I was very sick.
But...ta-dah! Here I am today, thanks to the miracle of modern medical science. Medication dragged me, kicking and screaming, right from the edge of the abyss. Today, the only way you can tell that I'm "medicated" is because of the dramatic improvement in my personality. Fifty years ago, I would have ended up lost and forgotten in some filthy asylum. Now, I function like a "normal" person much of the time, thanks to medication. Although I don't always use my powers for good instead of evil - and who does? -
I have a much better grip on reality, MUCH more control over my emotions, and I'm not so dark and dreary all the time. Not hopeless.Discuss your fears with the therapist
so that if you do want to try medication, it won't be so scary for you. You could start with a small dose of an anti-depressant, which you won't be able to "feel" - SSRIs are generally not mood-altering or tranquilizing. In fact, their effects are so subtle and so (unfortunately) slow, you may become discouraged. You do have to be patient.Good luck to you dear, you've taken the first BIG step of asking for help. It takes awhile to make your way out of the woods, but you're on the right path now.
God bless-
Gracie
Posted by bookgurl99 on May 19, 2003, at 23:57:47
In reply to Re: intuition is telling me to quit meds » bookgurl99, posted by leeran on May 16, 2003, at 10:41:35
Hey,
I did an 1-1/2 long yoga class today. I thought it would be very 'relaxing,' but it was quite difficult! The instructor was a sweet, older German lady who is Kripalu certified and has 25 years of experience.
The session was intense! Sweat poured down my body as I tried to hold the positions. Every one else in the class looked like professionals from the cover of Yoga Journal; I was the stumbling klutz who needed extra help.
But I really liked it. I felt 'blissed out,' afterwords, better than any drug. The intensity of the session, with many balance poses requiring strength and deep breathing, helped me feel that yoga is a genuinely spiritual practice, if done the right way.
I'm going to try to practice at home, as I cannot afford to pay $9 every day, but this is great.
Posted by leeran on May 20, 2003, at 9:24:53
In reply to yoga class! » leeran, posted by bookgurl99 on May 19, 2003, at 23:57:47
Hi!
That sounds great! I'm thinking of testing my hip and going back . . . I really miss yoga (your post has inspired me).
Is there a Bally's Fitness near you? We're members there (after a couple of years the monthly fee drops to $14 a month and yoga classes are $2.00 each - used to be free, darn it!).
The instructor at Bally's was (IMO) excellent. Very focused on form. Had been to India several times.
Keep us posted! After awhile, you'll probably find that your favorite position is "corpse" pose (it's intriguing to discover how deeply you can go into a meditative zone in a room full of people in a busy gym).
Posted by bookgurl99 on May 29, 2003, at 12:30:41
In reply to Re: what 'supplements' i'm looking into » bookgurl99, posted by Dinah on May 17, 2003, at 12:39:45
i'm taking sjw, because i noticed some anxious symptoms creeping in. i'm working on 'relabeling' and changing the ocd-type symptoms, but want some help.
after taking sjw for a week, i feel totally wonderful! i thought this was supposed to take longer to kick in. i _am_ having one typical ssri side effect of lots and lots of dreaming. but other than that, i'm nice, happy, and in a really good mood. i hope it lasts.
books
Posted by ST on May 30, 2003, at 3:14:51
In reply to taking saint john's wort, posted by bookgurl99 on May 29, 2003, at 12:30:41
I'm glad you're doing yoga-it helps so much with almost everything! About Saint John's. I did some informal research when I was considering that and SAM-e. I found that most people feel no different from taking SJW, but that SAM-e has helped people tremendously. I've been on SAM-e for about 8 monnths and it's made a big difference!
Good luck,
Sarah> i'm taking sjw, because i noticed some anxious symptoms creeping in. i'm working on 'relabeling' and changing the ocd-type symptoms, but want some help.
>
> after taking sjw for a week, i feel totally wonderful! i thought this was supposed to take longer to kick in. i _am_ having one typical ssri side effect of lots and lots of dreaming. but other than that, i'm nice, happy, and in a really good mood. i hope it lasts.
>
> books
Posted by bookgurl99 on May 30, 2003, at 9:09:07
In reply to Re: taking saint john's wort, posted by ST on May 30, 2003, at 3:14:51
Hey, I'm curious about SAM-E. How much does it cost for an effective month's supply?
And, am I being a fool for spending money on supplements when with insurance I can get a pharmaceutical solution for $15 a month?
Posted by bookgurl99 on June 1, 2003, at 23:29:38
In reply to intuition is telling me to quit meds, posted by bookgurl99 on May 16, 2003, at 1:25:19
So, I'm about 2 weeks off meds.
What I've noticed:
+not much withdrawal effects from zoloft after the first week.
+i'm more scared of ghosts at night. this really surprised me. i had always thought of that as a childhood fear that i had outgrown(i came from a superstitious, religious family). but the fear creeps into my mind at night as i head for the bathroom. whether this is from social training or psych. problems i'm not sure, probably a combo of both.
+i'm feeling much less motivated.
i'm spending a lot of time playing on the computer, doing not much. i really dislike this side of myself, having never seen it before.+a realization: i have an aunt who had a very high iq who, due to the loss of a loved one, developed severe depression and became somewhat agoraphobic in her early 20's. she has spent a lot of time since then (the next 25 years) staying at home, not working, and eating very sugary junk foods -- despite eventually developing diabetes.
i am really scared that i'm becoming increasingly like that aunt; with so much potential, yet not realizing it. thinking about the whole thing makes me wonder about the whole dopamine link in my family; how my grandfather drank a lot and how she and i both eat this junk food to feel better. i'm starting to wonder if i _would_ get further along on a dopaminergic med, or if i can energize my brain with natural solutions. i just want to make sure that i consider all solutions, and choose the best. (yes, i'm a perfectionist!)
any comments, suggestions, y'all? thanks so much for being a sounding board; it's hard to run these issues by my family or friends, as they're so invested in _me_ that it's hard for them to accept my taking meds.
Posted by ST on June 2, 2003, at 6:04:38
In reply to Re: SAM-E » ST, posted by bookgurl99 on May 30, 2003, at 9:09:07
No I don't think you're unwise to seek help through supplements, but I DO feel that pharmaceutical help is needed for most people. I've seen friends spend so much time hoping herbs will help and only getting minimal help. For me, I'm on Depakote, Wellbutrin, Serzone, SAM-e and I try to eat a lot of fish for the Omega fatty acids. And things seem to be at a good level and have been for about 5 years. So I think it's a combination of things. No one thing is the answer. But the ADs have really helped me.
SAM-e can be expensive. Especially the better brands that seal the SAM-e tablets in foil. The tablets lose their strength when exposed to air and the oil on our skin, supposedly, so it's important to buy a brand that foil packs their SAM-e. NatureMade has a good rep and is about $20.00 for 20 250 mg tablets. I'm on 600 mg a day, but I hear some people go to about 1200 mg.
Good luck!! I think you're smart to explore all options.
Sarah
Posted by bookgurl99 on June 10, 2003, at 18:44:42
In reply to intuition is telling me to quit meds, posted by bookgurl99 on May 16, 2003, at 1:25:19
So I've been completely 'med free' for 3 weeks. I'm glad about this. It's been some adjustments.
I visited with my pdoc today. He's supporting me on not taking meds. We had thought I could be having ADD, but my ADD symptoms were due more to meds than to the real me.
I'm experiencing full-force anxiety. We talked about my supplements and made some changes.
First, the 'energizing' vitamins/supplements I was taking have proven to be unecessary. The L-Tyrosine I have tried for a little over a week (500-1000 mg 1 or 2x/daily) has become a little _too_ engergizing, so that I'm up all night ruminating. He suggested I stop taking that unless depression returns, and taking 5-HTP to help me fall asleep.
I am still taking B Complex, antioxidants, and a cal-mag combo. I believe those are essential to good help.
Meanwhile, I'm noticing that I really need exercise to remain stable. I'm also trying to do some yoga/meditation daily but have not developed the habit yet. I may end up making myself a motivational list with gold stars!
books
Posted by bookgurl99 on June 10, 2003, at 18:50:13
In reply to great visit with pdoc/no meds update » bookgurl99, posted by bookgurl99 on June 10, 2003, at 18:44:42
when i asked my pdoc about the long-term safety of meds, he pointed out that we have to weigh the benefits of not living with severe anxiety/ocd, etc., with the apparently low risk of taking meds.
i asked about brain changes that can be permanent, and he said that as neurotransmitters, receptors, etc., are made from protein by our bodies every day, we do not need to fear 'losing' receptors. This was a fear of mine; that I would 'downregulate' and not be able to get those things back!
But he did say that a small group(1 or 2%) of people who use antidepressants are unable to get off of them for life. He said this small subgroup of people develop severe depression from getting off the meds. He said that it is not known whether those people have a separate illness than typical depression, or if they had permanent brain changes due to using meds.
I am not fearful of being in that small percent, but I was glad that he was honest with me about that.
I'm also glad that he supported me in my search for 'natural' methods.
books
Posted by Sabina on June 14, 2003, at 18:44:10
In reply to intuition is telling me to quit meds, posted by bookgurl99 on May 16, 2003, at 1:25:19
Acupuncture has worked wonders for me in the past and is great for anxiety, fatigue, and all the other fun stuff that can come from going off meds. Unfortunately, it can be pricey ($50-$80 per session) and my insurance doesn't yet recognize the benefits of a practice that was in use in China when my forebears were living in caves without enough sense to rub two sticks together to make fire. However, it does cover all manner of brain altering chemicals. That's how I got to Lexapro. I'd give it a try, along with the herbal supplements/tea (which should be offered at a nominal cost). I swear that I was inches from filing disability due to asthma when I first had acupuncture and four months later I was asthma free; this, after 30 years of traditional treatment.
Posted by bookgurl99 on June 14, 2003, at 23:06:00
In reply to Re: intuition is telling me to quit meds, posted by Sabina on June 14, 2003, at 18:44:10
sabina,
hmm, i had thought of going to an acupuncturist that i've seen in the past. it's the same old thing though; my partner is losing her job at soon, so the $50/session expense seems quite high.
i could try it if i got some overtime, though. :D
books
Posted by bookgurl99 on July 3, 2003, at 23:30:37
In reply to intuition is telling me to quit meds, posted by bookgurl99 on May 16, 2003, at 1:25:19
ok -- er, ah, i read the message that i posted earlier about not being on meds, and i see how together, driven, motivated, smart i sound.
i have been becoming increasingly more inert, less motivated, almost like i'm running out of gas. it takes a lot of energy to be vigilant with these issues.
but, i don't feel 'depressed,' or blue, i just feel largely unmotivated.
i'm starting to think i decided to quit meds when i still had some strattera powder gunking up my brain and making me feel all powerful.
i'm thinking i may have to try conventional meds again, and then make the hop to 'nothing' once i have that motivational kick in the brain.
the plan: next week i see the pdoc; i will ask to try strattera again -- this time a lower dose -- or if changing my antimigraine from verapamil to something else would be good. in two weeks i see the dr. to talk about getting tested for sleep apnea, which may be the cause of the other things. so i'm working to get to the bottom of it.
books
Posted by noa on July 4, 2003, at 9:51:39
In reply to no meds update -- it's been 6 weeks, i think!, posted by bookgurl99 on July 3, 2003, at 23:30:37
Bookgurl, you've also had some extra stress lately with transitions looming.
I think the testing for apnea is a good thing. It can cause the depression and the headaches.
Posted by Penny on July 4, 2003, at 10:09:10
In reply to no meds update -- it's been 6 weeks, i think!, posted by bookgurl99 on July 3, 2003, at 23:30:37
I, too, am heading to the sleep clinic this a week from today. Hoping (HOPING!!!) they can help with some of my problems - a sleep disorder certainly could explain a lot!
Good luck!
Posted by Dinah on July 4, 2003, at 10:13:26
In reply to Re: no meds update -- it's been 6 weeks, i think! » bookgurl99, posted by Penny on July 4, 2003, at 10:09:10
I've long been suspecting that my early morning wakenings are some sort of sleep disorder, but I haven't done much to figure it out.
As I understand it, if they discover you have sleep apnea they give you a machine to sleep with? Since I probably wouldn't use it, I haven't bothered with the whole thing.
Maybe if I lose some weight it'll help the sleep problems if they are physical. Of course, I think the reason I'm feeling better is because I'm not eating as I should for my diabetes, so my weight loss has pretty well stopped. :(
Posted by Penny on July 4, 2003, at 11:03:26
In reply to Re: Sleep testing, posted by Dinah on July 4, 2003, at 10:13:26
> I've long been suspecting that my early morning wakenings are some sort of sleep disorder, but I haven't done much to figure it out.
I think early morning wakenings can qualify as a form of insomnia. Have been through that myself, although (thankfully) it was fairly short-lived.
>
> As I understand it, if they discover you have sleep apnea they give you a machine to sleep with?That's the only treatment I know of for sure, though it seems that I have heard of some surgical treatment, I guess depending on the cause of the sleep apnea. My grandmother has sleep apnea and she does sleep with a C-PAP machine, which I would be extremely resistant to if diagnosed with that.
>
> Maybe if I lose some weight it'll help the sleep problems if they are physical. Of course, I think the reason I'm feeling better is because I'm not eating as I should for my diabetes, so my weight loss has pretty well stopped. :(I'm sure weight loss would significantly help me, just, I guess, in energy level. I had been doing so well until this recent slip - had lost 35 lbs. since January, but have gained about 5 lbs back over the last month or so. When I'm depressed, all I want to do is eat, and everything I want is sweet.
Posted by katia on July 4, 2003, at 13:00:40
In reply to Re: Sleep testing » Dinah, posted by Penny on July 4, 2003, at 11:03:26
This may be a stupid question, but can there be sleep disorders without depression? I can sense depression in my family; and I'm the only one and the first one to start talking about it which is hard in of itself. My dad does not sleep and I can sense his exhaustion during the day and I sense how painful it is for him to be with people for long. Since I've addressed my own depression finally, I've asked him if he thinks he suffers from it. He immediately rejected the notion, but he can't sleep and he's full of anxiety. He claims he JUST has a sleep disorder. And I can see that there is more to it. It's like waking from an unconscious and painful dark sleep from a family system and I'm the only one waking up from it. it's so hard. No wonder it took me so long to address it in myself, i've learned first hand how to hide, mask, and not mention what's really going on.
any input?
thanks.
katia
Posted by noa on July 4, 2003, at 17:38:18
In reply to Re: Sleep testing » Dinah, posted by Penny on July 4, 2003, at 11:03:26
I use a cpap. I hate it but it has saved my life, literally.
Depending on the severity of the apnea, and the contributing factors, some people are candidates for surgery to remove some of the soft palate tissue.
Weight loss can help for some, if that is a contributing factor.
Me? I've got the weight thing, plus a small mouth/airway.
Thing is, as yucky as it feels to think about using a cpap, unless you have the alternative, and until you lose enough weight--if that is what is causing it--you need to use the cpap if it is prescribed. Apnea is dangerous. It can cause all kinds of serious health problems, mood disorders, and can lead to falling asleep at the wheel.
If you are not getting proper sleep, that can throw your brain and body totally out of whack. Plus if you have oxygen deprivation, that adds a whole other problem.
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