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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by m3 on February 21, 2002, at 7:57:00
In reply to Re: Distressing therapy appt today » Dinah, posted by sid on February 20, 2002, at 19:44:41
:( :( I'm sorry, Dinah. I wish I could help; I do know how it feels.
Here's a small shrink anecdote, in case it makes you feel better: the first guy I went to was (originally) a classic Freudian psychoanalyst, though he had taken up doing the once-a-week kind of therapy, presumably to stay in business.
Anyway, I don't think I ever discussed anything meaningful with him in the five months or so I saw him. One time we spent the whole session talking about his opinions of the insurance industry. It didn't bother me at the time (guess I wasn't interested in challenges yet), but in retrospect it seems, um, less than therapeutic.
I hope you're feeling better today. Here's a hug: ((((Dinah))))
m3
Posted by mair on February 21, 2002, at 8:19:20
In reply to Distressing therapy appt today, posted by Dinah on February 20, 2002, at 18:47:58
Dinah
Sorry to hear about your distress. I have no funny therapist stories although I've certainly been furious with a few. My best recommendation would be to rent the movie "What About Bob." It's just very funny, does a number on pompous therapists, and can be watched multiple times, IMO
Hope things look better today.
Mair
Posted by m3 on February 21, 2002, at 10:04:20
In reply to Re: Distressing therapy appt today » sid, posted by m3 on February 21, 2002, at 7:57:00
Posted by Fi on February 21, 2002, at 16:54:38
In reply to Distressing therapy appt today, posted by Dinah on February 20, 2002, at 18:47:58
OK, how about this one.
My last therapist never, ever admitted that anything he did was less than perfect.
The worst thing was when the 50 minutes ended just as his front door bell rang (I saw him at his home). Instead of any sort of brief delay, he still ushered me out of the room and down to the front door.
So I opened the door to their visitor (come to see his wife), and we were both faced by a total stranger!When I mentioned this being an avoidable awkwardness, he seemed to have no idea what the problem was!
He was also the one who told me that he didnt think I was likely to progress in therapy- just before a 3 week break for his holidays.
And who didnt have an answering machine, but would leave the session to go and answer the phone if his wife was out...He *was* skilled in many ways, but would have been so much easier to work with if he was able to admit when things he did were disruptive!
Then there was the one who got increasingly distracted during a session, and eventually admitted he kept thinking his shoe was on fire as the orange light of the heater was reflecting on it.
I wouldnt have thought there were any therapists out there reading this Board, tho if there are they should come clean and admit it! Then they would have to work out who we are- I would say that the vast majority of what we describe could apply to thousands (millions?) of the people around the world with an internet connection..
So, if possible, dont let that idea of yours put you off saying exactly what you like here!Fi
Posted by Krazy Kat on February 21, 2002, at 19:00:53
In reply to Distressing therapy appt today, posted by Dinah on February 20, 2002, at 18:47:58
Dear Dinah:
"rocking at the bottom of the closet" - this was the first thing that endeared me to you. I mentioned something of the kind and you, very seriously, said that you do that, too. It made me feel so much less alone.
I don't have a therapist so I'm not much help, I'm afraid. Movies - that's a good question. I haven't read the other posts, perhaps someone mentioned this, but there was a supposedly funny one with Billy Crystal and DeNiro. I never saw it though.
Do go hide in the closet or under a big blanket for awhile. It always makes me feel better. :)
- KK
Posted by Zo on February 22, 2002, at 1:43:45
In reply to Re: Distressing therapy appt today » Dinah, posted by Krazy Kat on February 21, 2002, at 19:00:53
Oh, Dinah, sweetie, no therapist is worth that. There's too many to choose from. When kindness has been in short supply, when one is the sort of person who needs breaks on the closet floor. . .Can I tell you? One of the most therapeutic things I ever did for myself was to finally say the hell with it and find myself a *really* kind therapist.
Some of us (who, me?) tend to think it (love, therapy, everything) only works if it hurts. Ain't true.
Zo
Posted by Anna Laura on February 22, 2002, at 2:04:15
In reply to Re: Distressing therapy appt today, posted by Zo on February 22, 2002, at 1:43:45
>
> Some of us (who, me?) tend to think it (love, therapy, everything) only works if it hurts. Ain't true.
>
> ZoI totally agree. I( can say that by experience).
Posted by Dinah on February 22, 2002, at 8:09:50
In reply to Distressing therapy appt today, posted by Dinah on February 20, 2002, at 18:47:58
I wanted to thank you yesterday, but I just wasn't up to posting. I did spend most of the day hiding under my blanket, although no closet rocking since Wednesday night. (It does help, doesn't it KK, so reminiscent of childhood.)
Thanks for your warm wishes and funny stories and movie suggestions. When I dragged myself out of bed, I checked the board and they made me smile. I'll keep the funny therapist stories and a list of movies on hand for the next time I need them. And thanks for the cyberhugs m3.
I didn't mention and should have, that we have a long term (7 year) relationship that is basically a good one. After only 5 years I learned to trust him and it wasn't until then that I gave him the ability to hurt me. He says I've hurt him at times too, although I hadn't realized I had that power. I always think the ability to hurt is a power that is given to someone along with trust and caring, but perhaps that isn't true of everyone. And he is a good honest therapist, albeit one who gets defensive a bit too much and can be a bit insensitive. But we all have our faults.
Everything is OK now, but I'll put that in another post so that this one isn't too long.
Thanks again everyone,
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on February 22, 2002, at 8:32:50
In reply to Distressing therapy appt today, posted by Dinah on February 20, 2002, at 18:47:58
Yesterday when my therapist heard how genuinely hurt and upset I remained after Wednesday's appt, he offered to see me that evening. I reluctantly said yes, since often his attempts at correcting things end up with him being defensive and me being more upset. But this time we hashed out a lot of things that had been hanging in the air for a while.
Almost the first thing he had said in session had hurt me and it turns out that he didn't realize he had said it aloud. He understood why it had upset me said alone and without the accompanying thought processes. He had been having trouble understanding why I was upset with his final answer, which wasn't really a bad answer. He hadn't addressed the initial answer because he hadn't realized he had said it aloud.
We discussed how our respective "issues" sometimes clash and get in the way of therapy (thanks mouse and jane). But given the years of work together and the inevitability of that sort of thing happening in any long term relationship, he thought and I agreed that it was best to work on the problems rather than simply switch therapists. We talked about the areas where that might be true and agreed to try to recognize them when they came up.
We talked about his sometimes rigid way of reacting to things. We talked about my extremely good perception of WHAT was happening but my poor ability to figure out WHY coupled with my reluctance to ask for fear of hearing the answer. For example, when I get upset, he grows more distant and rational, which makes me more upset, which makes him more distant and rational, etc. I assume he is backing off because he is uncomfortable or disgusted with my emotion and I don't ask. He said last night that my perceptions are accurate, he is backing up and getting rational, but the reason he is doing it is different than I think. He is backing up because he realizes he has blundered and doesn't want to step on any more landmines. And he is getting more rational to try to figure out what went wrong. He promised to try to stay still when that happens and ask me what is going on. I promised to mention what I think is happening and my perception of it.
I know that there will be many instances when neither of us keep our promises, since it's only human to fall into familiar patterns. But I feel so much better about our ability to work through those things without my having to "stuff" feelings of hurt.
I know this is a really long post but I just think it is such a happy event. You know, when two people in any sort of relationship stop sticking to their own views of reality and pause to consider the other's person view. I'm going to have to try to apply this lesson to my husband, although I'm not sure it will work in a one-sided way.
Thanks for reading all this if you made it to my salutation.
Cheers,
Dinah
Posted by sid on February 22, 2002, at 9:50:37
In reply to Re: Distressing therapy appt today, posted by Zo on February 22, 2002, at 1:43:45
> Some of us (who, me?) tend to think it (love, therapy, everything) only works if it hurts. Ain't true.
>
> ZoI agree! Dinah, you (everybody!) need to be your best friend in life. Situations that hurt you need to be fought through so that things may change or they need to be walked away from.
- sid
Posted by judy1 on February 22, 2002, at 20:06:41
In reply to Healing therapy appt last night (long but happy), posted by Dinah on February 22, 2002, at 8:32:50
I am so happy for you that everything worked out. When I read your post I thought we were going to the same psychiatrist! He started his session with me this week by saying he was afraid of saying the wrong thing (sounds like land mines to me). I think you and I may be more sensitive then what they're used to, but in the land of therapy they have to take responsibility for that. I worked out my frustrations too, so cheers to both of us- judy
Posted by LiLi80 on February 22, 2002, at 20:43:39
In reply to Distressing therapy appt today, posted by Dinah on February 20, 2002, at 18:47:58
My psychiatrist was telling me that although seeing him for meds and therapist, Dr. G, for talking was good, he felt that was minimal care. He felt that I would benefit from going to behavioral therapy. I started to complain, "I dont have a job I cant keep throwing $30 -$50 a week on this stuff (scripts & appts.) And I dont want to go to another appointment. If I go to this new thing, either you or Dr. G has got to go." And he said, "And you like Dr. G." And I replied, "Yup."
Posted by Dinah on February 22, 2002, at 20:52:19
In reply to Re: Healing therapy appt last night (long but happy) » Dinah, posted by judy1 on February 22, 2002, at 20:06:41
I'm glad everything went well for you Judy. I know you were worried about the appointment.
I certainly have my moments with him. I'm always extremely sensitive to changes in the atmosphere, but they only bother me at times. It's that whole bipolar mood swing thing. He never knows who will be sitting in the session with him and when he has to be careful.
I suppose we should feel some compassion for the poor dears, even though you're right. It does come with the territory.
Posted by Jonathan on February 23, 2002, at 15:09:53
In reply to Re: Distressing therapy appt today, posted by LiLi80 on February 22, 2002, at 20:43:39
The `friends' who deserted you have lost more than you have.
> My psychiatrist was telling me that although seeing him for meds and therapist, Dr. G, for talking was good, he felt that was minimal care. He felt that I would benefit from going to behavioral therapy. I started to complain, "I dont have a job I cant keep throwing $30 -$50 a week on this stuff (scripts & appts.) And I dont want to go to another appointment. If I go to this new thing, either you or Dr. G has got to go." And he said, "And you like Dr. G." And I replied, "Yup."
Posted by Mair on February 23, 2002, at 16:57:48
In reply to Re: Healing therapy appt last night (long but happy) » judy1, posted by Dinah on February 22, 2002, at 20:52:19
Dinah
I'm glad you're feeling better about things. It's interesting what you said about your therapist's tendency to back off when you'
re most upset. I've noticed with my therapist that when I am in the worst shape, she seems the most matter-of-fact. She then feels distant to me and not emotionally supportive. I can be an emotional wreck (internally, rarely externally) and she's asking me these very directed questions which of course in my emotional state seem irrelevant. We've never talked about this but my take on it is that she's trying to be the one person in the room who isn't losing her head. It's probably better that she not allow me to get swept up by whatever I'm thinking and feeling and that she move things to a more rational discourse. It's still disconcerting to me though.Mair
Posted by Dinah on February 23, 2002, at 19:31:44
In reply to Re: Distressing therapy appt today, posted by LiLi80 on February 22, 2002, at 20:43:39
Posted by Dinah on February 23, 2002, at 19:51:19
In reply to Re: Healing therapy appt last night (long but happy) » Dinah, posted by Mair on February 23, 2002, at 16:57:48
Yes Mair, I found it interesting too. And it explains a lot. And it even makes sense in it's own way. The problem is that it never fails to increase my distress, and in fact makes me absolutely frantic, as it somehow brings up very primal fears.
When he explained, I asked "So what can we each do differently because this really isn't working. There just has to be a better alternative." And he remembered a Native American story about remaining where you are when you are lost because the birds and trees aren't lost or something like that. I guess the important thing is that we're each more aware of what's happening and, in theory at least, we should be able to do things better next time. I mean, I certainly am glad that he's keeping his wits about him, but it would help if he didn't do it in a way that habitually causes me to lose mine. :)
And I'm trying to see how the same thing happens on my side in my own relationships, and evaluate whether there are more effective ways I can do things. Because I have a sneaking suspicion that I back away and become exceedingly rational in emotional situations too.
Posted by trouble on February 24, 2002, at 9:09:15
In reply to Re: Distressing therapy appt today, posted by Zo on February 22, 2002, at 1:43:45
> Oh, Dinah, sweetie, no therapist is worth that. There's too many to choose from. When kindness has been in short supply, when one is the sort of person who needs breaks on the closet floor. . .Can I tell you? One of the most therapeutic things I ever did for myself was to finally say the hell with it and find myself a *really* kind therapist.
>
> Some of us (who, me?) tend to think it (love, therapy, everything) only works if it hurts. Ain't true.
>
> ZoAre you saying you'd abandon an intimate relationship that didn't seem to be working?
I hope you don't have any kids.trouble
Posted by noa on February 24, 2002, at 18:05:08
In reply to Re: Distressing therapy appt today, posted by trouble on February 24, 2002, at 9:09:15
Catchy title, eh?
What I mean is that many of us, either innately or from our painful past experiences, or, most likely, the combination of both, have brains senstitized to react strongly using our emotional-survival instinct parts of our brain (like the amygdala)where these reactive parts of the brain go into overdrive and the chemical cascade that happens then overwhelms our thinking brains so our hurt is so overwhelming and our brains are now drowning in panic chemicals and absolute beliefs of our own badness, etc. etc.that our analytical abilities in considering the possibilities of what the stimulus really means (eg, what are all the possibilities of what that look on his face could have meant?)can't possibly keep up.....
At least this is my experience. And when I read the post about the painful therapy session, I can recall similar experiences in therapy. Recently, I went into flaming amygdala mode when triggered by a disappointing situation that I think pushed all of my "panic-about-not getting my life together-not being able to take care of myself-this means the hope I've been relying on that I can establish a livable life is a charade-here is proof of how much a failure I really am-here is proof of how worthless I truly am, etc. etc." buttons. Only all those discernable words I used to describe it just now were nowhere in the vicinity! Not a verbal experience at all. A totally overwhelming, flaming amygdala, preverbal, emotional, all-encompassing experience that cannot really be put into words.
It is the kind of thing that has flared up at times when I pick up on a nonverbal cue or when someone says something that is hurtful to me (at least per my perceptions) or when I say something that I feel I shouldn't have, etc. etc.
So, I am SO glad that your therapist reached out to you to process what happend between you. And that he respects your hightened attunement to nonverbal cues and validates your expereince of being hurt by acknowledging his part, conscious and unconscious, as one of two human beings in the therapy dyad. And glad, too, that you were up to the challenge of processing it, which can be hard work!
I have a therapist who is able to do this as well, and I am so grateful. I think this kind of crisis actually has taught me a lot about myself.
Posted by Zo on February 24, 2002, at 21:05:50
In reply to Re: Distressing therapy appt today, posted by trouble on February 24, 2002, at 9:09:15
Trouble,
I know you can make something besides, I've read it.
And when you do, I think you're very clever and I'd love to answer, but I won't be bullied. Speaking of verbal abuse.
Zo
Posted by Zo on February 24, 2002, at 21:10:54
In reply to Re: Healing therapy appt last night (long but happy) » Dinah, posted by Mair on February 23, 2002, at 16:57:48
Dinah,
I'm not sure how this is different from marriage and I think it's supposed to be, I think the therapist is supposed to be more of a holding container/the adult instead of bringing his issues to the table. I'm not saying this quite right, and I do mean to be supportive, I'm just concerned that what's being asked of you, and more importantly, what you're asking of yourself--is what has always been asked of women. A certain thinking of the other and having to identify, a certain constraint of the self---that the therapy hour ought to be free of! If we are to become whole. More than properly socialized women, Persons. With fully operating Selves at hand.
Zo
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2002, at 1:45:26
In reply to Re: Our Flaming Amygdalas, posted by noa on February 24, 2002, at 18:05:08
That is a wonderful description of what happens to me. It is such a primitive reaction. With me, it appears to be abandonment fears, although I have the same response to any suggestion that I might have done something "bad".
And yes, at the moment anyway I feel very lucky to have such a good therapist. When he returned my call, I was deep in one of my "involuntary naps" that I use to distance myself from unpleasant experiences, and in fact I admitted that I had trouble remembering what had happened already. It was really terrific of him to realize that we needed to discuss it before I had intellectualized it beyond recognition. And I feel that it was a very productive session.
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2002, at 1:54:25
In reply to Re: Healing therapy appt last night (long but happ, posted by Zo on February 24, 2002, at 21:10:54
Thank you Zo. I do hear the support for me in your post. My therapist isn't one of the blank slate type therapists and has always acknowledged that there are two real people in the room. And I am so glad he felt free to discuss the issue because it was there whether he acknowledged it or not. My perceptions were accurate and I think it was really professional of him to admit it. And if he had been another type of therapist, I would have missed out on what I consider to be a truly beautiful encounter. I know that sounds kind of silly, but it accurately describes my thoughts. I am trying out the concept of total vulnerability elsewhere, as you might recognize from my posts on this board, and as is also true in my real life. I'm not expecting all the encounters to end up as well as the one with my therapist though. :)
Posted by noa on February 25, 2002, at 7:27:45
In reply to Re: Healing therapy appt last night (long but happ » Zo, posted by Dinah on February 25, 2002, at 1:54:25
Yes, Dinah, it sounded to me like his disclosures were about acknowledging/owning up to the signals he had sent out that you, being so perceptive, picked up on. I think this kind of disclosure is good and necessary, especially with people who are so sensitive to the unspoken signals, because of our crazy-making childhoods with parents sending signals they refused to own up to and mixed signals and conflicts between the spoken and unspoken signals, etc., where we had to learn to be vigilant for these cues because they could signal danger one way or another.
I don't think of this kind of disclosure as burdening--it didn't sound to me like your therapist was telling you in order to get your comfort and sympathy. If he had, Zo is right--that would be inappropriate and burdensome. But from the way you described it, it sounds more like the disclosure was done in service of your treatment.
Posted by jane d on February 25, 2002, at 11:07:52
In reply to Re: Our Flaming Amygdalas, posted by noa on February 24, 2002, at 18:05:08
> "panic-about-not getting my life together-not being able to take care of myself-this means the hope I've been relying on that I can establish a livable life is a charade-here is proof of how much a failure I really am-here is proof of how worthless I truly am, etc. etc." buttons.
I have that same button.
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