![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 31. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tabitha on March 23, 2011, at 1:54:40
This may be a strange question and a strange place to ask it, but I've looked and looked for some kind of discussion of losing faith in therapy. Something akin to forums for people who have left their church. There are many of these dedicated to various mainstream religions and more cultish ones.
I also know about 12-step backlash. There's quite a bit of literature and discussion on that.
Yet I've never found a book or blog or article or anything on people who just come to the conclusion that they spent a heap of cash and a load of time and attention on therapy, then just lost faith that it had been valuable. And started to suspect it may have been harmful.
The closest thing is recovered memory backlash, but that doesn't really fit what I'm experiencing. (Then of course there's the anti-psychiatry movement of Scientology, but I'm not looking to replace one set of beliefs with an even weirder set.)
I just kinda can't believe it's something so little experienced or discussed. It seems like such a big occurrence to me and I feel alone with it. I don't want to blather on here since this board (I think) is supposed to be for supporting people who still believe in it. Despite all the many threads about people with painful transference and struggles, I don't see folks talking about just losing faith in the whole enterprise, and I don't want to poison the well.
Any ideas?
Posted by Dinah on March 23, 2011, at 6:55:39
In reply to People who've lost faith in therapy, posted by Tabitha on March 23, 2011, at 1:54:40
I don't think this board is meant to be pro-therapy exclusively. I don't see any reason why discussion of a loss of faith in therapy would of necessity be disrespectful to those who still "believe". Especially if you speak of your own experience and your own feelings.
I'm interested in knowing what's going on with you, and would welcome it if you feel able to share. I know you've been in therapy for a long time, as I have. I'm sorry to hear that it isn't going well for you. Are you still seeing her?
Posted by obsidian on March 23, 2011, at 8:27:50
In reply to People who've lost faith in therapy, posted by Tabitha on March 23, 2011, at 1:54:40
I'd be interested in what you have to say too. You don't have to think it was all good to talk about it here.
Take care,
Sid
Posted by pegasus on March 23, 2011, at 12:49:13
In reply to People who've lost faith in therapy, posted by Tabitha on March 23, 2011, at 1:54:40
I agree that it might be interesting and appropriate to discuss this here.
I wouldn't say that I've lost faith in therapy, but I've certainly lost faith in some parts of it. Which is terrifying when I'm actually in therapy. Maybe, for me anyway, it's about having more realistic (?) expectations? I like my old expectations better, though.
- P
Posted by toetapper on March 23, 2011, at 12:53:04
In reply to People who've lost faith in therapy, posted by Tabitha on March 23, 2011, at 1:54:40
Ill take a stab at it.
I started therapy 22 years ago at age 32. For 17 years I went in and out of therapy and on and off meds in half a dozen cities with a dozen different Ts, at a total cost north of $100k. Ive tried every single form, system and med there is because, to paraphrase Sig, [we] would gladly do anything to alleviate the suffering.
Along the way I had Ts who were habitually late, ate full meals during session, answered phone calls AND knocks at the door, videotaped me without my knowledge or consent, routinely fell asleep, retroactively billed an entire year at a new rate, required a $2500 retainer to book an appt (which had to be replenished at the $500 mark), divulged confidential information to a mutual friend at a cocktail party (trust me, they gossip about us!), physically restrained me in an attempt to kiss me, and one actually did totally and completely drop off the face of the earth, taking my medical records with her, so I couldnt even transition to another T in their practice.
I also achieved some genuine milestones over the years.
But after a catastrophic termination in 2005 I said enough, and have come to several conclusions since then:
1) I am capable of observing my own discomfort, and in many cases identifying its roots. Im pretty good at recognizing (and accepting responsibility for) what Im bringing to the table, though at times what to do with it once I get there is a different matter entirely...
2) Every single relationship in my life is driven by transference, there is absolutely nothing magical about the T relationship in that regard. In fact, in my opinion, our willingness to ascribe magical qualities to our Ts often ends up sharpening the sword on which we inevitably fall.
3) Every single T is flawed; it stuns me sometimes how absolutely determined clients/patients/cases are to not allow their Ts to be flawed human beings.
4) I acknowledged, then accepted, that I will never be a happy, carefree, normal person, and thats okay. I dont say that with resignation, quite the opposite actually.
If the idea is to employ a T to assist one in learning how to regulate emotions, respond to criticism/rejection/disappointment, move beyond a trauma, or heal an abuse, Im not sure who is served by wanting the T relationship to be an absolutely-perfect and/or never-ending parental, personal or intimate relationship. Its simply not possible, even if youre willing to open your wallet wider still.
I understand there is a vast continuum between psychology and physiology in treating depression, and a broad spectrum of circumstances that lead people to gladly do anything to alleviate the suffering -- everyones problem AND solution is different.
For me, that meant recognizing the best way to learn how to move in this world I find so damned uncomfortable and unwelcoming was to learn how to deal with the people and circumstances actually in my life, not from the relative isolation of 45 min in an office, where T issues sometimes choked off MY issues. Do I still hurt? Yeah, I do. Some days a LOT. And some days I wish I had someone I could run to. But the rest of the time Im glad to be free of it.
Posted by 10derheart on March 23, 2011, at 15:31:43
In reply to People who've lost faith in therapy, posted by Tabitha on March 23, 2011, at 1:54:40
Tabitha, please do write about it. I relate most closely to what Peg wrote at this point. I'll try to contribute something to this thread, but I am cautious because I am right in the middle of what I see as a worst possible outcome to what I thought was one of the best, healthiest relationships of my life and now it is awful beyond words.....so I *know* I may be biased...
{sigh} It's so hard and confusing. One day I wish I'd never heard of psychodynamic psychotherapy and especially never met particular therapists, and the next day I do see the potential value in it, maybe down the road with **lots** of distance and time...?
{shrug} Mostly I'm lost about what to think of the whole topic.
Posted by toetapper on March 23, 2011, at 22:44:34
In reply to Re: People who've lost faith in therapy » Tabitha, posted by toetapper on March 23, 2011, at 12:53:04
Ive gotten several emails that indicate to me my post has totally bombed, so I officially withdraw it. I only meant to say I think we vest too much in the T relationship, and sometimes lose sight of the purpose of the relationship. And, also, there are a lot of practitioners out there who really should not be practicing.
Several other people have said the same thing so I know Im not crazy -- I believe you have to keep asking yourself what am I doing here? What am I trying to accomplish?
I was trying to accomplish a happy, carefree, normal persona. I thought the right T could help me. When I realized I was wrong I moved on.
I do think the T relationship mirrors other significant relationships in our lives, and I think thats really important. We choose our Ts for both conscious and subconscious reasons, just as we choose spouses, friends, neighbors, and, in some cases, jobs. We go where we feel safe/comfortable. And we choose to stay, or go, based on the same. For me, understanding that has completely changed the way I interact with every single person in my life, from the postman to my children. We want the T relationship to be the one that heals us, and sometimes it does, very effectively, and Im glad for that.
But sometimes the healing comes from understanding ourselves from within.
Ive learned more about myself from babble than any source. Ive lurked for years, allowing myself to watch what triggers me, and questioning why. I cant recall the last time I posted here, yet something in this thread triggered me enough to post. I think its because Ive watched this site circle the drain for two years now, and it makes me sad, this is the place where I learned the most about myself.
Im sorry I offended you all, that was the exact opposite of my intention.
Posted by sigismund on March 23, 2011, at 23:57:53
In reply to I withdraw my previous post » toetapper, posted by toetapper on March 23, 2011, at 22:44:34
> We go where we feel safe/comfortable
This is not quite right. There is more we want than just safety and comfort. We might want things that involve, or seem to involve, neither.
We might, for example, want to be known.
Posted by sigismund on March 24, 2011, at 0:06:13
In reply to I withdraw my previous post » toetapper, posted by toetapper on March 23, 2011, at 22:44:34
>my post has totally bombed
Not with me it didn't.
As you get older you think less in terms of systems and big ideas. I did 15 years of 5 hours a week psychodynamic. That was when I was more kind of hopeful. Now I am better but have less hope and am less sociable and am more comfortable about it. And I know myself better. I feel really quite OK with myself, even if I don't feel that good at all. Back then....well, when you are young.....maybe therapy is for young people with hope? Systems theory, hydraulics, Marx, Freud, Klein. Really!
Posted by Tabitha on March 24, 2011, at 1:29:31
In reply to Re: I withdraw my previous post, posted by sigismund on March 24, 2011, at 0:06:13
Toetapper, I appreciated your post and I'm sorry it created discord & regret on your part.
Everyone else, thanks for giving me encouragement to write about it here. I'll fill in a bit of what I'm going through. It's hard to write it down as it seems to become a long rant every time I talk about it. For basic stats I've done 17 years and $200-300k with current T, who I thought was "a good one" most of this time. Prior there were some mediocre and one who really hurt me, but fortunately those were briefer. It's not really particular flaws of particular therapists that's the issue for me. It's just that I realized it wasn't working the way I'd once expected it to, and it wasn't working the way it once had, and when I started looking at the assumptions that I saw built into the whole undertaking, I realized I couldn't even believe them any more. It really feels like I had a belief system I didn't much question supporting it, and it all collapsed. Or it collapsed slowly over time, and I just hadn't wanted to see it.
This is going to seem impersonal and perhaps a bit boring, but it's overwhelming to try and sum up the history of it, and the events, and describe what we've done. These are beliefs that no longer seem true to me
1) That it's possible for me to determine a cause and effect for my feelings or moods or personality characteristics by thinking about it and talking about it. This assumption is so ingrained into what we do, and it's just seeming absurd to me. I can spin up stories and 'insights' all day long about why I might feel the way I feel or do the things I do. They're never really true or false. How could such stories ever be true or false? They're not verifiable. This is one where I told her many many years ago it just seems like I'm speculating and making up theories. I don't know how to decide if they're true or not. She told me that the ones that 'resonate' are true. Well none of them really resonate. Sometimes one will resonate, then it doesn't seem true or valuable at all later. I assumed I was lacking some kind of ability to do this and I'd gain it over time. I never did! I just got more and more impatient with trying to do something that I can't do, and doesn't even seem logically possible to do.
2) Corollary to the above: that it's possible for me to tell what's true by whether it resonates (meaning feels more intense internally). There's a huge contradiction here! On the one hand, I've been educated about transference, and how the most compelling true-feeling belief can be false. Yet when applied to cause-and-effect theories about myself, I'm supposed to ignore this and look for the resonance. It's ridiculous.
3) that looking inward and exploring inward is a good response to emotional distress. That there's some valuable truth or experience in there I need to dig for. If I can't find a cause, I can find some important process working itself out, some meaning, right? Just never worked. I kept looking. I've found the opposite is more true for me. Looking inward is a bad response to emotional distress. It makes it more intense and keeps me stuck longer. I'm too inward-looking to begin with! There's a theory that depression is actually caused by rumination (thinking too much about problems) and I can believe it. When I actually try to limit the exploring inward, I move through emotional distress more quickly.
4) that 'insight' leads to changed patterns of feelings and behavior. I'm not even sure therapists believe this one anymore. It feels like my thinking changes as a result of new behaviors and experiences, not the inverse. The sort of forced insights I dredge up in therapy really don't seem to lead to change for me. I have thousands of pages of journals of my insights and looking back, I either had the same one over and over and over with no change, or they just don't even seem true any more.
5) that I have an inner child and I need to talk to her and form a relationship with her, and not doing so is tantamount to child abuse. We tried to use this one for my procrastination of chores. Supposedly my inner child was blocking me and I was supposed to bargain with her and pay attention to her. I think I got 15 minutes of progress once with this approach. The exact opposite works better for me. I need to put my feelings of distress aside entirely and do what needs to be done. I need to plow through my own resistance. Then I actually do feel better, after accomplishing something.
6) that talking about problems and pain is going to relieve it. Sometimes it seemed like it did, but even then, it also seemed to distract me from taking action. It felt like I'd had some important progress in therapy that was more important than anything I might need to do in life. It felt like I'd done my work for the day (or the week) and needed a break. More often, all the talking and venting just seems to intensify it. I come out feeling worse than when I went in. Things I didn't even notice bothered me, blossomed into huge problems in the therapy session. I know the argument-- this is important stuff we brought up. Well maybe so, but isn't it equally possible it's just manufactured distress?
7) that the process of therapy has the power to change me. We were supposed to be working out relationship issues, or working out old trauma, or something. I was supposed to change as a result. Sure, I changed over the 17 years I was doing it. It just didn't feel like the changes were related to therapy. At one point I truly believed that people who weren't in therapy weren't going to grow or change. Over time I see people who aren't in therapy experiencing plenty of growth and change. This really shocked me! I thought their growth must not be real or something, just a facade. Where did I even get this idea?
8) fix your internal world, and the external world will fall into place. Why did I ever buy this?
I still can't figure out how to make myself change. It does seem like I achieve some things I set out the achieve. But the timing doesn't seem under my control at all. I struggle and struggle and struggle for years with no progress. Then sometimes areas that were impossible get easier. When I look for "why did that improve" the only things I can find are actual real changes in circumstance. I don't find internal change causing it at all! Quite the opposite.9) that therapy is mental health care. I'm embarrassed to have charged so much to insurance and taken advantage of insurance parity legislation in my state. It isn't health care. For a while after I realized it didn't feel like health care, I thought Ok, well it's more like education. It's necessary education I didn't get growing up. I can't see it as education anymore, since I've lost faith in the tenets of it. It really seems like a form of entertainment, in the sense that interests and hobbies are entertainment. If you enjoy mucking around in your head and inventing stories about yourself, Ok then. Nothing wrong with that. But viewed that way, it should feel good, or feel like mastering challenges, like other hobbies. It doesn't. It feels bad most of the time. It feels bad like some unpleasant thing you have to do to get better. But if I no longer believe it's going to 'get me better', and it doesn't feel good, then what is it? It's a habit and a dependency
I'm actually still going. I've cut back from 3 hours a week to 1.5 hours every other week. I was afraid stopping suddenly would create some kind of emotional backlash and I'd end up getting sucked back in entirely. So far I'm functioning better without it.
Posted by Dinah on March 24, 2011, at 7:58:01
In reply to Re: I withdraw my previous post, posted by Tabitha on March 24, 2011, at 1:29:31
I have two immediate impressions.
The first is that you might be in a similar state of therapy to where I am, where what's been helpful in the past might be ceasing to be helpful because that work is done and incorporated. To some extent, you seem to be saying that growth comes from just doing life rather than thinking about it. But I think the ability to just do life isn't there for all people at all times of their lives. When it isn't possible to put feelings of distress aside and do what needs to be done. Yes, certainly that is ideal. But in general people seek out therapy because their life isn't working when it comes to doing what needs to be done.
The second is that a lot of what you wrote describes your therapist's method of doing therapy, and her thoughts on therapy. Which is perfectly reasonable given your long therapeutic relationship. But a lot of what you describe as no longer believing are things my therapist probably never believed and never said to me. You are thinking that your therapist's approach to therapy is "the" approach to therapy, when really there are a good number of therapists who would say to you just what you are saying.
So maybe you are right about therapy, but not completely and all-encompassingly right (if I remember my logic correctly). That what you are saying is true, but it doesn't encompass the entire truth about all therapy. It's true for you right now, and it may have been true for you for some time. What you say may be true for many people much of the time.
Maybe therapy doesn't need to be a creed, so much as a tool. Or a group of tools since there is so much variation within therapy. At any time, you might not be needing a tool at all, and using that tool might slow you down and make you awkward. (I've used a lot of tools like that - ones I've tossed away in disgust and just dug my bare hands in and did the darn work.) And at any time a particular tool might not be right for the job, even if it's been the right tool in the past. And even though you're used to that tool, and it fits so easily in your hand, it really might make the work much faster to try another one, if you also find that tossing the tool aside and just digging in with your hands doesn't accomplish the job. I was that way with Lotus 1-2-3. I clung to it long after it quit production, and long after it ceased to be cutting edge, because I was used to the look and the feel of the program. I didn't want to move on to nasty old shiny Excel. But once I got used to it, I can do so much more so much more quickly with what was, at that point, the most effective tool for the job. Even though at one time the most effective tool for the job *was* Lotus, and I was perfectly right in loving it. Maybe just not loving it as long as I did.
Good grief. I seem to be admitting the fact that it *is* possible to stay too long at the party. Though I'll never concede that a therapist has the right to point say that even when it is true, and certainly not when it isn't true.
Of course this may reflect one of my therapist's pet therapeutic points. He's not as big on feelings as your therapist seems to be. But he is big on balance and avoiding extremes. So that he'd probably point out that therapy is neither good nor bad entirely. Therapy is sometimes good and sometimes bad, and sometimes neither.
It's funny. Over time I find myself thinking of things the way my therapist would have approached them with me over the years. No wonder he often thinks I'm right about things these days. And I find those helpful ways to view the world, and helpful ways to function. Ways I probably wouldn't have found myself, because it wasn't the way I thought until he molded me to think that way. Like a good parent should.
It's even more funny that he often doesn't think the same way about his own life. Just mine. He's as silly as anyone about his own life. Strange that. The pupil learned to apply the lessons better than the teacher. It was like that with my mother. What she taught me growing up became part of who I am. Yet over and over again she does things and thinks things that she taught me better than to do or say.
Did your therapist do any of that sort of molding with you?
So maybe instead of thinking that you wasted $200-300k with your therapist, you could think that you wasted $100k or $50k or $150k.
Or as the comedian teams say "My marriage has been the best five years of my life." "But we've been married fifteen years."
Or not. Just my thoughts.
Posted by Dinah on March 24, 2011, at 8:10:25
In reply to I withdraw my previous post » toetapper, posted by toetapper on March 23, 2011, at 22:44:34
It may *feel* as if you offended all. But you didn't. Clearly you offended some. But that happens in life sometimes. It doesn't mean you shouldn't share your thoughts. Unless I read too quickly, I didn't see you as being disrespectful of those who thought differently.
I suppose there are times, particularly between people who have a long relationship, to have private conversations in a public discourse, to try to ease misunderstandings. But it's my general rule not to say something negative in email that couldn't be said in public, particularly if I don't have an off board relationship with someone. I know it's done frequently elsewhere, so it might just be a way of thinking that I haven't been exposed to.
But the problem with taking private communications as the entire truth is that it can't be the *entire* truth because it isn't open to public comment, and therefore there is no ability for the world at large to refute or confirm.
So please don't withdraw your comments. It might be gracious to say you're sorry if you offended anyone. Or that you recognize that these are your thoughts and are your truth, but that others may have their own truths. But please don't withdraw your comments entirely.
Posted by lola2 on March 24, 2011, at 17:36:28
In reply to I withdraw my previous post » toetapper, posted by toetapper on March 23, 2011, at 22:44:34
Didnt bomb at all, and I dont think you should take back. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Mine wasn't far off from yours not too long ago.
Posted by obsidian on March 24, 2011, at 22:04:48
In reply to I withdraw my previous post » toetapper, posted by toetapper on March 23, 2011, at 22:44:34
I was not offended, and appreciate what you've shared.
Thanks,
Sid
Posted by Tabitha on March 24, 2011, at 23:54:39
In reply to Re: I withdraw my previous post » Tabitha, posted by Dinah on March 24, 2011, at 7:58:01
Hi Dinah, I hope this doesn't seem argumentative, but I'm going to reply in more details...
> I have two immediate impressions.
>
> The first is that you might be in a similar state of therapy to where I am, where what's been helpful in the past might be ceasing to be helpful because that work is done and incorporated.I'd like to be able to think that, but I can't really identify any work that was done and incorporated. I can't even speak the language any more. What 'work' was done?
> To some extent, you seem to be saying that growth comes from just doing life rather than thinking about it. But I think the ability to just do life isn't there for all people at all times of their lives. When it isn't possible to put feelings of distress aside and do what needs to be done. Yes, certainly that is ideal. But in general people seek out therapy because their life isn't working when it comes to doing what needs to be done.
Oh for sure, that's exactly why I sought therapy. I believed it had the power to change me. But believing didn't make it so.
>
> The second is that a lot of what you wrote describes your therapist's method of doing therapy, and her thoughts on therapy. Which is perfectly reasonable given your long therapeutic relationship. But a lot of what you describe as no longer believing are things my therapist probably never believed and never said to me. You are thinking that your therapist's approach to therapy is "the" approach to therapy, when really there are a good number of therapists who would say to you just what you are saying.No doubt I'm focused on my particular experience, but I don't think she was such a maverick that she was making her own individual brand up. I've known many people in therapy and recovery movement, known several therapists personally, and I got a similar gist. Look inward, probe around, come up with stories to explain yourself. Figure yourself out. Ugh!
> I was that way with Lotus 1-2-3. I clung to it long after it quit production, and long after it ceased to be cutting edge, because I was used to the look and the feel of the program.I can't look back and identify many useful tools. There were some, but mostly she was trying to teach me to use techniques that never fit me. I kept trying and trying, and thinking they'd start to fit. They didn't.
>
> Of course this may reflect one of my therapist's pet therapeutic points. He's not as big on feelings as your therapist seems to be. But he is big on balance and avoiding extremes. So that he'd probably point out that therapy is neither good nor bad entirely. Therapy is sometimes good and sometimes bad, and sometimes neither.I'm not really saying it's bad. I'm saying it's just evaporated for me. It was a system of belief that created hope for the future, like religion. Hope that it was leading to some big reward. No doubt it filled a void. No doubt it boosted my ego to think I was doing something so brave and important. But it kinda went 'poof' when I tried to really look at it logically and evalute how it was going.
>
> So maybe instead of thinking that you wasted $200-300k with your therapist, you could think that you wasted $100k or $50k or $150k.That one cheers me up!
Posted by Daisym on March 25, 2011, at 0:23:57
In reply to People who've lost faith in therapy, posted by Tabitha on March 23, 2011, at 1:54:40
I think this is an interesting and really important discussion.
First - to answer one question asked, there are books that talk about this exact thing. William Glasser (sp?) I think wrote a book about how psychotherapy can be hazardous to your health. The CBT movement would agree with most of what you wrote.
And for sure, one size does not fit all.
From my perspective, both as a client and in my work with kids, I think the relationship that develops in long-term therapy can be healing and can provide the courage and capacity to move through your life, and accept who you are. I believe therapy might change some things about a person, but never really changes who we are in our core. I tend to think of it was helping me "grow up" differently than I did the first time.
I find myself wondering if the internet had been around when you started therapy if you would have had different expectations or if you would have had more support to not keep trying to use tools that weren't working for you. It is only fairly recently that psychotherapy has become more of a shared process with places for clients to talk about what was happening for them. Prior to online discussions, most people kept sessions very private and knew very little about what was "supposed to" happen or not.
And I guess I believe firmly that we look for what we need to deal with the stress of living and do the best we can with what we find. Every choice we make leaves other paths unexplored. Whose to say that your life wouldn't have been a whole lot worse, even as it isn't a whole lot better?
Posted by tetrix on March 25, 2011, at 14:55:39
In reply to I withdraw my previous post » toetapper, posted by toetapper on March 23, 2011, at 22:44:34
Your post was one of the best posts I have read on this board
Posted by Dinah on March 25, 2011, at 18:25:08
In reply to Re: I withdraw my previous post » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on March 24, 2011, at 23:54:39
It could be that you're entirely right.
I was just pointing out that if you were overinvested in therapy before (something all too easy to do I think), could it be that this is the flip side of the same tendency? My therapist isn't psychoanalytic in training of course, but it seemed that therapy with him was a lot about balance.
Not to say I always manage it. I have a tendency to devalue things as a way to detach from them. And since it's so much easier to detach that way, I'm not altogether certain I want to change.
Posted by Tabitha on March 26, 2011, at 1:47:11
In reply to Re: People who've lost faith in therapy, posted by Daisym on March 25, 2011, at 0:23:57
Thanks for adding your thoughts, Daisy.
Regarding CBT, I think I got quite a dose of that. I found the parts about learning to recognize the typical thought distortions useful. But after a point, it felt like just another variant of the rest. Instead of hunting for hidden mood triggers and childhood influences, I had to hunt for hidden distorted beliefs. I can't count the times I heard "what's the belief behind the feeling?". If no explanatory beliefs came to mind immediately, then her questioning encouraged me to speculate. So again I felt like I was spinning stories about myself that seemed plausible but never really felt entirely true. And no matter how many beliefs we identified and challenged, it didn't seem to reduce the amount of emotional distress I was living with.
On whether I would have been better able to identify the mismatch had I had more information from the internet, I kind of doubt it. That's the thing-- I didn't realize at the time the tools weren't working. I thought my therapist was better able to judge the results than I was. I'd regularly complain it wasn't working and I should terminate. She could convince me there really was progress, and put all kinds of meaning on it that sounded good that I wouldn't have been able to come up with myself. I wanted that version to be true. Alternately she'd divert it into a discussion of what might be going on in our relationship to make me want to terminate. She'd no doubt find something that bothered me and talking about it would be a relief, so I'd conclude that my doubts were really some reflection of some emotional drama or some relating defect in myself. At some point I decided to try even harder to go along, to put my faith in her (and the process) and conclude she knew better. After all, her story of me making progress was a lot more appealing than my story of it just not working, when I didn't have an alternate plan.
And of course, I understand there's no way to know if I would have been better or worse without it and in the big picture, everything I did led me to where I am today, so in that big, big picture there's no harm done. But having to view it in that way is part of my frustration. Seems like after so much invested, I should be convinced it really helped significantly. It's just nuts that I went for so long, and can't even say conclusively whether it helped or hurt.
Posted by Tabitha on March 26, 2011, at 2:10:02
In reply to Re: I withdraw my previous post, posted by Dinah on March 25, 2011, at 18:25:08
> I was just pointing out that if you were overinvested in therapy before (something all too easy to do I think), could it be that this is the flip side of the same tendency?Hmm, I can see how it does sound like I was overinvested. So are you talking about that borderline thing where you flip from overvaluing to devaluing? From what I recall I'm generally incredibly slow to change my valuation of people. I've hung onto admiration for years, even after rupture of the relationship. I don't seem to get done over-valuing someone until what I value in life changes so must that the person I remember no longer possesses qualities I admire (even though they've no doubt grown also into someone new). So this sort of sudden rupture feels strange to me.
And was I really over-invested? Well I guess if I'm likening it to religion, I was over-invested. But isn't there plenty of encouragement to think therapy is going to improve your relationships and get you un-stuck and create growth?
Just thinking on what I recall of your therapy, I recall you didn't expect growth and change so much as just a good solid support. I think you used to refer to him as one of the legs of your support stool. And I remember you saying you believed your emotional reactions to be just a genetic oversensitivity to stimulus. I'll admit when I read that I thought something not too far from "oh poor Dinah, she just hasn't learned to find the causes for her feelings yet". (Sorry!) Now of course I'm much more in line with you in thinking my mood swings are impervious to psychological intervention. It seems more useful to think of them like the weather. They come and go of their own accord.
>
> Not to say I always manage it. I have a tendency to devalue things as a way to detach from them. And since it's so much easier to detach that way, I'm not altogether certain I want to change.Right. I like how you're actually looking at the cost and benefit of changing.
Posted by Dinah on March 26, 2011, at 8:26:05
In reply to Re: I withdraw my previous post » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on March 26, 2011, at 2:10:02
I wasn't really thinking of it that way so much as I was thinking about it as love. When you have strong negative feelings about the formerly beloved, the attachment is just as strong as it ever was. And perhaps the temptation to stoke negative feelings to break a long attachment. As well as black and white thinking. Which may be a borderline trait, but certainly not one where borderlines have a monopoly. :)
And I supposed my everpresent pull to the middle and avoidance of extremes. I have a feeling it makes me contrary, because if anyone were to talk about the unmitigated joys of therapy I'd have a similar kneejerk response to pull to the middle.
But...
I will say I'm suddenly pleased that my many years were with my therapist, fall asleep as he may have done. He may have rooted around in my past a bit, and challenged my distorted thinking a bit. But most of what he did was simply to help me modulate my emotions. Apart from his own life, he really is calm to the point of phlegmatic.
I'd bring all these emotional storms to him and they'd beat against his solidness. Then he'd reflect back to me, or discuss them with me, and they'd looked subtly changed. The events were the same. He might even agree with me that they were very bad. But they'd be presented back to me and incorporated in me in a slightly modified version. My therapist operates on the basis of eastern philosophy a lot, so he might have some wisdom story or parable. So I'd go in overwrought and come out less wrought.
Sometimes he wouldn't even have to be wise so much as just be his large solid self to absorb all that extra emotional energy and help me moderate it.
So it's true that I didn't learn to find causes for my feelings in the sense that those with more psychodynamically oriented therapists do. Sometimes I envied those brilliant interpretations other therapists seem to do. The discussion about dreams, etc. But neither do I really regard them as the weather. Or at least not the weather as it appears on the surface. Maybe the weather reported as fronts and atmospheric pressure and convection and currents. So that my therapist wouldn't be as likely to speak of my reaction in terms of it reminding me of something my mother used to do or some deep seated emotional conflict or of an areas where I need to change something inside. So much as of doing a study of prevailing climate conditions. For example: I didn't get enough sleep, there's been a constant pressure of stress lately, I tend to avoid when anxious, or I have a oversensitivity to rejection or criticism. Then we'd discuss how all those atmospheric variables are coming together to create the perfect storm. Or a minor turbulence, depending on the occasion. So that they might not be such a surprise to me, I might even be able to identify conditions beforehand that might lead to a problem, and (just) possibly take steps to avert the disaster.
(Chuckle) If my therapist had framed things in terms of areas where I needed to change, therapy would have been an epic fail with me. It's because he accepted my failings as facts as impersonal as convection and pressure, and strove to help me find ways to work around those givens, and possibly subtly pointed out the ways they were hurting me, that I was able to change at all.
And of course, my personality is such that he couldn't just give me homework assignments to learn these things. I did and do reject emotional lessons presented didactically. It was more of a molding as in river on rock. A constant wearing down of my own ways of viewing the world.
To my therapist's credit, he did learn these things about me and modify his approach to me. I think in general he does more of a hands on, homework assignment, egg of shame sort of therapy. In fact, I heard him giving one of his clients the egg of shame as he was walking them out in a different direction than usual. :)
Your therapist didn't serve these functions for you? I know they aren't things everyone would find helpful, but I suppose I regret if you didn't get these things from your therapist. Or if she constantly framed your distress in terms of opportunities for improvement in you.
(I love cost/benefit analysis and sunk cost theory. My therapist had the good sense not to pursue the "and what benefits do you get out of feeling this way - what are the secondary gains" after my reaction the first time or two. But I suppose it's vaguely conceivable that those thoughts may have influenced him even if he bent over backwards never to speak the words.)
Posted by Tabitha on March 27, 2011, at 14:21:28
In reply to Re: I withdraw my previous post » Tabitha, posted by Dinah on March 26, 2011, at 8:26:05
That's a nice post summing up the value you got from your sessions. I think you're saying your sessions were themselves soothing, or that the example he set for you of reacting calmly to your emotions helped you learn to react calmly. If that was happening for me on a regular basis I might regret the high cost of it but I wouldn't be questioning the value.
I recall a few sessions or a period where I felt like the sessions were soothing. I could move from utter desperation to mere sadness and fear. But that was years ago and not even consistent then. Now I generally come out of the sessions more upset than when I went in. Having that space to ramble on, and being drawn out about it and asked to investigate it further seems to be intensifying my fear and anger and confusion, and even creating new fear and anger and confusion.
I can't really recall or see what was different when it did seem more soothing.
Posted by Dinah on March 27, 2011, at 15:08:39
In reply to Re: I withdraw my previous post » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on March 27, 2011, at 14:21:28
He can definitely be very soothing. I think that's likely the hook that kept me going back. But it was his help in teaching me how to regulate my own emotions, and even more than that, it's the way he very subtly changed my way of thinking about things that will prove helpful without him.
> Now I generally come out of the sessions more upset than when I went in. Having that space to ramble on, and being drawn out about it and asked to investigate it further seems to be intensifying my fear and anger and confusion, and even creating new fear and anger and confusion.
I *completely* understand that. Although perhaps I have a pretty good idea what is being done differently now. :) I mostly blame him for that, although I recognize that it's an endless cycle of my withdrawing and (ok I admit it) my being critical of him and him withdrawing and being detached, which leaves both of us thinking that there isn't much left. But if he hadn't helped me over the years, I'd have probably pathetically begged to stay on at any cost and on any terms. As I have in the past. I've changed. And that change will help me not accept less a less than acceptable experience.
It sounds as if you should also hold yourself more valuable than that. Never mind your money. *You* are worth more. If therapy upsets you more than it helps you, and not because you are exploring deeper levels or anything like that, maybe it's time to see if you are ready to demand more. Even if the "more" to your life is "less" of therapy.
Sunk cost theory says it doesn't matter if you spend $1 or $100,000 on therapy up to this point. That money is gone. Will your next session be worth the fee? Is the value you get greater than the emotional and financial cost? If not, then maybe it's time to think about whether your attachment to her is enough to keep you with her.
There's only an answer that's right for you.
What would you spend the saved income on? I've gotten a fancy new blood glucose monitor. Whoopeee!
Posted by Tabitha on March 30, 2011, at 1:41:23
In reply to When is the end » Tabitha, posted by Dinah on March 27, 2011, at 15:08:39
Just plain makes me sad to realize I wouldn't at all be eager to go to sessions and spend the money if it weren't for the shared history and the investment up to this point.
I did think of one thing that she provided over the years that I really valued. It just gave me a place to dump my craziness every week (and weekends with phone sessions) whereas without that, I'd have likely been spewing a lot of it to friends, partners, coworkers, family, strangers, which might have damaged those relationships and at the least caused me embarrassment. That function no longer feels so necessary to me, apart from my doubts about whether the spewing itself creates and feeds the desperation.
It seems like it comes down to not wanting to lose that shared history and that repository of life-witnessing she's become. It's like I'll lose track of part of myself by stopping and risking being forgotten.
Posted by Dinah on April 1, 2011, at 20:33:29
In reply to Re: When is the end, posted by Tabitha on March 30, 2011, at 1:41:23
Hmmm... I think you have a good point there. I know I wish my mother had had a therapist so that she could have been a better mother with me. Life can be so stressful sometimes, and having a neutral third party to talk to can be so helpful for that. Do you think that having your therapist to talk to might have helped you coped in some really crazy times at work, when otherwise you might not have coped so well?
I suppose it's a sign of health that you no longer feel you need this? Or a sign of better life circumstances?
I increasingly found I would have the conversations in my head before I even got to therapy leaving me nothing to do but recap what a wonderful job the imaginary him in my head did.
I think it can be really scary to think of terminating. That's why I'm not thinking of it that way at all. I just don't have any scheduled appointments.
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