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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Pippa on February 5, 2007, at 4:39:00
In reply to For Pippa, posted by Dis Traught on February 5, 2007, at 4:33:47
Penny
Not a problem - thanks for your concern.
Piers and I have talked this through in detail - I am going to see another therapist.
My problem now is do I tell the new therapist about Piers?
Life is never simple ... any ideas?
Pippa
Posted by caraher on February 5, 2007, at 5:52:19
In reply to Re: For Pippa, posted by Pippa on February 5, 2007, at 4:39:00
Did Piers express any worries about a new therapist "reporting" him to a licensing agency?
Posted by Pippa on February 5, 2007, at 6:01:11
In reply to Re: For Pippa, posted by caraher on February 5, 2007, at 5:52:19
No - he has not expressed any worries. He believes that we should do whatever is best for me.
I imagine that "client" confidentiality means that my new therapist ... Who is incidently a woman!!! - would not be allowed to report him without my permission?
Piers and my new therapist have worked together for over 8 years. I will ask her what her professional opinion is.
Pippa
Posted by lcat10 on February 5, 2007, at 23:17:12
In reply to Re: For Pippa, posted by Pippa on February 5, 2007, at 6:01:11
> No - he has not expressed any worries. He believes that we should do whatever is best for me.
>
> I imagine that "client" confidentiality means that my new therapist ... Who is incidently a woman!!! - would not be allowed to report him without my permission?
>
> Piers and my new therapist have worked together for over 8 years. I will ask her what her professional opinion is.
>
> PippaI find this very disturbiing. A therapist has a power differential over a patient. This is such a big no-no, and you may not recognize the problems from this now, but down the line you will. Believe me.
Posted by Daisym on February 6, 2007, at 0:03:43
In reply to Re: For Pippa, posted by Pippa on February 5, 2007, at 6:01:11
In the US (at least in CA) patient confidentiality does not extend to ongoing (current) abuse situations - elder abuse, child abuse, abuse of any with special needs OR abuse of a patient, medically or mental health wise -- even if the patient doesn't believe they are being abused.
However, I think each individual therapist would have to look at their own ethically obligation to doing what is best for you, which may come in conflict with reporting the abusing therapist. So it is a slippery slope. It could put the new therapist in a bad spot, couldn't it? Especially since she works with your current therapist.
Posted by Pippa on February 6, 2007, at 3:00:17
In reply to Re: For Pippa, posted by lcat10 on February 5, 2007, at 23:17:12
Hello
I am sorry that you find this all very disturbing.
Can I go back to the point that I made a few posts ago? Piers (my now ex-therapist) is my lover, my soul-mate and the best friend I have in the world.
We started this relationship because we both wanted to. At no time has he coerced me, seduced me or forced me to do anything that i did not want to. We went into this with our eyes open and fully aware that there were huge personal and professional implications for us both.
I love him and he loves me.
I wish that I had not entered into this debate, but I have and I feel that I should continue to have my say.
What are the problems that I may not recognise from this now?
You ask me to believe you but what should I be recognising? That we may split up? That he might never leave his wife? That I may end up in a worse state that when I started my therapy? I happily and gladly started this relationship in the full knowledge that nothing is permanent unless it is based on love trust and an equal sharing of views. It will take work and love. We have both accepted that we need to make an equal contribution.
I am the happiest I have ever been in my life. There are challenges that I still have to address but dont we all have those?
You talk about a power differential. In our relationship there is no use of power. I needed help. I paid for that help. Piers gave his help and time and in a natural and perfect way we became lovers. This was not a smutty series of f*cks in the back of a car or stolen time on the therapist's couch. It was and is a beautiful, warm, sexy sharing of minds, bodies and love that I believe everyone in the world deserves and needs
I have gone from a bad place to what I believe is as good a place as there could ever be.
For the first time in 14 years I am confident in my sexuality. I am not ashamed about what happened to me in the past and can give my body lovingly to a man I love respect and trust.
I genuinely believe I have been "unraped" ...
Pippa
Posted by Honore on February 6, 2007, at 10:26:45
In reply to Re: For Pippa » Pippa, posted by Daisym on February 6, 2007, at 0:03:43
It could be said that Pippa's new therapist is being put into an untenable position, or at least one of a conflict of interest, which is inappropriate.
If she works with Pippa's lover and ex-therapist, she will have conflicting allegiances, to her co-worker, and to Pippa. She may well also have a strong interest in not rocking the boat at her job, with supervisors and other colleagues.
The issue for the new therapist is that often those who report the malfeasance of colleagues become seen as trouble makers, not good samaritans. Beyond that, they have to go through a lot of uncomfortable situations, and trouble that is made much more painful by being in prior relationships of (presumably) mutual respect with people who must, inevitably question her judgment and her report.
So it may be that Pippa has gone from one inappropriate situation to another.
Honore
Posted by widget on February 7, 2007, at 21:11:57
In reply to Re: For Pippa, posted by Pippa on February 5, 2007, at 6:01:11
Hi, Pippa, Are you ok? Your story about why you sought therapy is very sad and you have share so much with all of us. How are you? Good thoughts for you; hope you are well.
Posted by Pippa on February 8, 2007, at 2:07:32
In reply to Re: For Pippa, posted by widget on February 7, 2007, at 21:11:57
Hi Widget - I have had a bad few days ... lots of self doubt and disgust with myself. Thats the way it is with me ... Piers is helping ...
Pippa
Posted by widget on February 8, 2007, at 7:35:59
In reply to Re: For Pippa, posted by Pippa on February 8, 2007, at 2:07:32
It's good to hear from you. Sorry about the bad days. I'm glad you have some support. Be gentle with yourself. I know I've had those days, too. It may be trite but you can only do the best you can do.
Posted by widget on February 17, 2007, at 23:39:05
In reply to Re: For Pippa, posted by Pippa on February 8, 2007, at 2:07:32
Hi, Pippa, haven't heard from you for awhile. Are you ok? Just wondering, I feel much empathy for you. Take care, Widget
Posted by jenlynnsock on March 12, 2008, at 19:46:32
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by bird in the sky on November 26, 2006, at 19:53:50
> > i can't go back. its too hard and too confusing. i don't think i could even sit in the same room with him right now.
>
> (((J))),
> I wish someone beside me could tell you how normal and common this is - to fall in love w/ your therapist.
> Now since you are fighting it, it seems like it may grow and be more painful. To me, facing it and having the chance to talk about it, *helps*. It sure did me.
> I don't know if my case is different, and of course yours is a lot more delicate, since you recently lost your husband. In my case, it is kind of a recurring thing. I have always fallen in love with men in authority. Like maybe every few years.
> This is so neat to be able to be with him (my therapist) and talk to him without the risk of being unfaithful to my husband. It's like a real relationship, cause we are talking and sharing so much and i can absolutely trust him.
> It helps me if i masturbate before i go to see him though, so i'm not all nervous and horny. That way i can concentrate more and i don't act funny.
> I understand that it helps therapy for the patient to fall in love with the T, and i believe it. I have to think about why and write that later...
> Are you seeing someone else?
> birdBird, whazzup???I havent't thought about this for a while. So, how goes everything with you? Still at the therapist u had before, just curious. Take care of yourself. Jennifer S
Posted by sassyfrancesca on March 13, 2008, at 9:51:10
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by jenlynnsock on March 12, 2008, at 19:46:32
Hi, Jennlynn: It is VERY common to have feelings for your therapist...they are SO there for you.
I fell in love with my t five years ago; it is excruciating, but I told him that I would rather be in love WITH him that without him; we have had many deep, serious conversations about my (and his) feelings........his latest: "If I were not married, I would probably go for it."
I could write a book about all that he has said to me, indicating fighting his feelings for me.
Hugs, Sassy
Posted by jenlynnsock on March 13, 2008, at 18:18:52
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by sassyfrancesca on March 13, 2008, at 9:51:10
> Hi, Jennlynn: It is VERY common to have feelings for your therapist...they are SO there for you.
>
> I fell in love with my t five years ago; it is excruciating, but I told him that I would rather be in love WITH him that without him; we have had many deep, serious conversations about my (and his) feelings........his latest: "If I were not married, I would probably go for it."
>
> I could write a book about all that he has said to me, indicating fighting his feelings for me.
>
> Hugs, Sassy
Thanks Sassy,
I appreciate your feelings on this situation.
Well, I guess I pretty much told him and decided that it would be best not to talk or see him in any regard.
For me, and this is only me, my private opinion of my personal situation. I felt that it was a kinda wrong thing for me to do in that I did know that it put me in a vulnerable situation.
For whatever reason, which I truly do not know 'till this day, I do love the man, but had to let it go at that and do my best to handle it.
I can say that, like you, I also did see things in his behavior, body language, touch, words, etc., that made to believe what I still do.
However, I also have to look at the conditions I went in for, and well, it's kinda hard when your brother, husband and father die within 18 months.
So......I also had to rationally consider that it is very possible that I was not seeing things correctly.
I don't really feel I was, but I guess I accept that reason as good as any I have developed.
Oh well, f*ck it, my situation I refer to. I imagine it's all a learning experience and I have too many men beating my door down to let this thing hold me back no matter how hard it is to forget.
I feel for you baby, it's a hard road and many people don't get that. But I do, I really do.
You are stronger than I, in that I could have never stuck around like you have> To be around him I mean.
Hit back up when you get time,
Later, Jen
Posted by bird in the sky on March 14, 2008, at 1:28:45
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by jenlynnsock on March 12, 2008, at 19:46:32
Dear Jennifer, Wow, I can't believe it's been so long since we had this 'conversation'. I hope you are doing well since the tragic loss of these dear men in your life.
Yes, I am still seeing the same therapist. It has changed a bit, though. My feelings are not so intense and sexual, and my love for him has settled in to being a deep love. Not one i pine for near as much, but a real love. It's so neat to have been able to experience this, with one i trust so much and one who has never let me down one iota. I know some of you may think, one may be able to get this from friends, etc, not from a paid professional. (Well, thatz what i thought anyway) But I am so grateful to experience it, it doesn't matter, because i know it's real. I have never given up on the idea that someday i may be able to hug him, but he just doesn't think it would be good for me, so i trust his judgement. It was hard at first, but so rewarding, tho bittersweet now. I am so glad i gave in to love and accepted his. His 'love' being: his devotion to me getting better, listening to me intently, watching my body language to understand what i was not saying, never letting me know he loved me any different than other clients, fully deserving my trust, sharing with me of himself to help me realize I am trustworthy and deserving. I could go on... I have decreased the frequency of sessions and it's ok now. It used to be so hard to wait until the next session. I feel like i could stop seeing him and he would still be with me, but i just can't bring myself to do that yet...
Thanks for asking, i really appreciate it. bird
Posted by sassyfrancesca on March 14, 2008, at 8:38:00
In reply to Re: Love with therapist » sassyfrancesca, posted by jenlynnsock on March 13, 2008, at 18:18:52
Hi, sweetie: I am so sorry about all of the deaths (I didn't know)....Please accept my condolences and love.
As for my t, if I chose to leave, I would be without any man in my life.....well, even tho i am 61, I look in my early 40's, and make sure I let my t read all of the blurbs from the dating website I am on, LOl, LOL.....I do it just to aggravate him!
On one hand he wants me to be happy; find another man, etc,etc.....i have no desire to do that; I have found the man I want and need; unfortunately he is married (hard to tell sometimes)...
We are going to be at the same (psychology) convention in Hawaii; oh the sneaky fantasies I have, LOl, LOL
We are like a married couple, in that I am sarcastic and tell him just what I think (sometimes), and tease and flirt with him outrageously.....he is also a tease and flirt, and we are alike in over 30 different ways; even have the same (rare) eye disease...oh, how romantic!
I went to him because of what my church of 31 years was d oing to me (long story)......and he being a pastor---my girlfriend told me about him; as I needed a therapist (and how often would you find exactly what you needed) who was an expert in spiritual abuse....and when the church debacle was over (he journeyed with me for the 18 months in which I fought the system); first man to ever stand up for me in my whole life (powerful bond), and then I simply stayed with him......
After my divorce (I was sitting on the floor); he wordlessly got up from his chair, and sat next to me without saying a word.
So sensitive, empathic and powerful; I told him all I wanted to do was to scoot over and have him hold me (my restraint is unbelievable); wonder how much longer I can do "this."
Hugs, Sassy
Posted by sassyfrancesca on March 14, 2008, at 9:00:43
In reply to Re: For Pippa » Pippa, posted by Daisym on February 6, 2007, at 0:03:43
Hi, Pippa: Been in love with my t for five years (could write a book on all he has said and done to indicate he is in love with me).
It is excruciating to live without him; we have had many deep conversations about our feelings. he says "As long as we talk about it, it isn't dangerous"
Oh, yes it is!
Thank you for being so open, honest and brave in talking about what is happening between you and your to. What I have read is that (some rules); a t is supposed to wait 2 years before having a personal relationship with a former client; some states say....never....once a client, always a client.
I read: Sex in the Forbidden Zone by Peter Rutter....fascinating; ever read it?
Love and hugs, Sassy
My t said: "We are both very restrained people" .....sure would like to be spontaneous, but I am such a careful person.
However, we are both attending a convention (psych.) in Hawaii in one week........his wife will be there, but flying over later on in the week; jeepers,,,,,the fantasies.
C'mon back......I don't understand where this "prostitution" thing comes in; makes no sense to me.
Posted by Attachment Girl on March 14, 2008, at 12:12:17
In reply to Re: Love with therapist » jenlynnsock, posted by bird in the sky on March 14, 2008, at 1:28:45
> Dear Jennifer, Wow, I can't believe it's been so long since we had this 'conversation'. I hope you are doing well since the tragic loss of these dear men in your life.
> Yes, I am still seeing the same therapist. It has changed a bit, though. My feelings are not so intense and sexual, and my love for him has settled in to being a deep love. Not one i pine for near as much, but a real love. It's so neat to have been able to experience this, with one i trust so much and one who has never let me down one iota. I know some of you may think, one may be able to get this from friends, etc, not from a paid professional. (Well, thatz what i thought anyway) But I am so grateful to experience it, it doesn't matter, because i know it's real. I have never given up on the idea that someday i may be able to hug him, but he just doesn't think it would be good for me, so i trust his judgement. It was hard at first, but so rewarding, tho bittersweet now. I am so glad i gave in to love and accepted his. His 'love' being: his devotion to me getting better, listening to me intently, watching my body language to understand what i was not saying, never letting me know he loved me any different than other clients, fully deserving my trust, sharing with me of himself to help me realize I am trustworthy and deserving. I could go on... I have decreased the frequency of sessions and it's ok now. It used to be so hard to wait until the next session. I feel like i could stop seeing him and he would still be with me, but i just can't bring myself to do that yet...
> Thanks for asking, i really appreciate it. birdBird,
I'm a newbie on the site, but I've been following this discussion with a lot of interest. I just wanted to say thank you so much for the above post. I'm right in the middle of going through this with my Therapist and its incredibly difficult right now, but what you said gives me hope that there's another side of this. I had seen a female T for many years who retired and ended up going to a male T who my husband and I were seeing for marriage counseling. When I realized that I was feeling attracted to him, I went and told him and then therapy really took off. We're doing really significant work on my being able to form a secure attachment. I've gone to a level of trust, and for that matter, love, that I don't think I've ever gone to before with a man. But its been really difficult to settle for just the theraputic relationship (although I'm acutely aware that anything else would be really damaging.) He's an amazing therapist (sounds alot like yours)who has been incredibly compassionate and patient and has created a really safe place for me. Which sometimes makes things tougher. : ) I just lost a very beloved mother-in-law who has lived with us for the last five years and I'm mourning both the loss of her and of the wanted-but-can't-have relationship with my T. You have no idea how comforting it was to read your post. Its really nice to know I'm not the only one who's felt this way. Thank you so much for talking about it.
Attachment Girl
Posted by sassyfrancesca on March 14, 2008, at 13:17:53
In reply to Re: Love with therapist » bird in the sky, posted by Attachment Girl on March 14, 2008, at 12:12:17
My t and I have been having a personal relationship...(not sex).He said: "My colleagues would tell me to run fast and far but I will never abandon you."
Guess one would call it an emotional affair, which of course I wish could go to the physical.....
The reason I went to see him is long over ( a spiritual abuse situation with my church).
He said something so deep. personal and sensitive about himself last week that I was shocked; I simply told him that I loved his soul.
Sassy
Posted by widget on March 19, 2008, at 16:38:47
In reply to Re: Love with therapist » bird in the sky, posted by Attachment Girl on March 14, 2008, at 12:12:17
Dear Attachment Girl, I read your post with great interest as I am, as so many, in a similar situation. My question to you (or anyone who has an answer) is why a more intimate relationship with a therapist is so inherently damaging? I have heard that repeated many times but I have not heard the reason it is so unacceptable. Any ideas? Sincerely, Widget
Posted by Attachment Girl on March 19, 2008, at 17:20:09
In reply to Re: Love with therapist » Attachment Girl, posted by widget on March 19, 2008, at 16:38:47
> Dear Attachment Girl, I read your post with great interest as I am, as so many, in a similar situation. My question to you (or anyone who has an answer) is why a more intimate relationship with a therapist is so inherently damaging? I have heard that repeated many times but I have not heard the reason it is so unacceptable. Any ideas? Sincerely, Widget>
Hi Widget,
Great question! From my experience and the reading I've done, it mainly has to do with the power imbalance. We imbibe our therapists with a huge amount of respect, admiration and trust. In some ways our healing is advanced by the belief that our therapist CAN help us. But a romantic relationship or friendship is one of peers. So in some sense to enter into that type of relationship with a therapist will (almost) always leave you at a disadvantage. The other reason is that part of why therapy works is that we cannot know ourselves, especially our unconscious, except in relationship. Therapy focuses the relationship only on the patient and constructs a safe place for you to express everything, even the painful, shameful, or embarrassing stuff. Since the therapist conceals much of theirselves and expects nothing from the relationship, they are able to maintain a certain "distance" or detachment that allows them to see the patterns in what we do so that we can change them. And since they do not have much at stake its easier for them NOT to be threatened by our emotions the way a spouse or friend would be. Once a personal relationship begins, the therapy is over. In my case, my background involves long term sexual abuse by my father followed by complete abandonment, so you won't be surprised that I have trust and relationship issues with men. As a matter of fact, my therapist is probably the first man I've completely trusted, and that includes a really wonderful husband. So from a very young age, a relationship that should never have included sex, did, so it is important for me that my relationship with my therapist doesn't include sex so I can 1)learn that I can have a relationship with a man that doesn't include sex (NOT as obvious as it sounds for someone from my background 2)learn that a relationship with a man can be about meeting my needs instead of his at my expense. One of the reasons I feel so safe with my therapist is that despite my sharing sometimes quite painful feelings about desiring more from him and his completely accepting those feelings, he's also made it extremely clear that he will not allow anything to happen that shouldn't. Its not a real rational thing, both wanting and dreading the same thing. And add into that the fact that I have been married for 22 years and have two teen age daughters and my therapist is married, kinda puts a crimp in things right there. Oh yeah, and I don't think he has any of those types of feelings for me and you have a pretty unworkable situation. Funny how none of that stops the feelings though. : ) Sorry this was so long, I have a tendency to babble. Hope that helped! And thanks for asking, I'm having a really difficult day today coping with this issue and all the good stuff that has happened with him has felt really far away. Writing all this out brought it alot closer.
Posted by widget on March 19, 2008, at 18:10:24
In reply to Re: Love with therapist » becca, posted by Eggy on July 16, 2003, at 0:39:49
Hi, realize I am YEARS too late for your post but it touched me and made me wonder if you found you were able to give up your therapist finally and felt finished with it all. I struggle with termination and have told my psychiatrist that if it is up to me (as he says) then we will never finish therapy. I would really like to know if you have reached a point where that is possible. Seems so unlikely for me. Widget
Posted by jenlynnsock on March 19, 2008, at 18:21:35
In reply to Re: Love with therapist » jenlynnsock, posted by bird in the sky on March 14, 2008, at 1:28:45
Bird........whazup?? I was very glad to hear from you again and appreciate your concern. And yes...it's been along time since this all began.
I'm happy to hear that everything is settling in for you regarding these crazy *ss things that we have both felt, feel.
Never forget that you are worthy and deserving, you really are. Very kind also.
As the saying goes 'nothing but blue skies ahead' and I believe it...........So now girl it's time to break out the Dom and show that victory dance.
Posted by widget on March 19, 2008, at 18:31:41
In reply to Re: Love with therapist » widget, posted by Attachment Girl on March 19, 2008, at 17:20:09
To Attachment Girl, I just thought I posted a response but cannot find it. oh, well. I thought you sounded very mature and well-adjusted. You are able to accept the boundaries that are probably good for us as client. I find myself being really angry with my psychiatrist since he continues to refuse me what I really want from him. How can he not be at all interested in me? Oh, I am also happily married to a wonderful man but I love my therapist and trust him totally. I think I should tell him about my anger towards him as it is certainly in my mind now. Why does a phsycial relationship based upon respect and love diminish a therapeutic one? He has told me the same explanation as you provided but I seem to have this inner drive to pursue him. Not feeling too good about all this, Widget
Posted by Daisym on March 19, 2008, at 23:14:09
In reply to Re: Love with therapist » Attachment Girl, posted by widget on March 19, 2008, at 18:31:41
Widget,
Even if it wouldn't ruin the therapy, how can be it based on respect when you are both committed to other people right now? (sorry if I have this wrong.) Sometimes I think we have to try and remind ourselves that there are lots of layers in play here - are these men (or women) available to pursue as partners or do they already have partners? And aren't we asking them to risk all - their careers, licensure and families, to be with us? Would we do that if we really love them?
You are right - the feelings don't just go away because we "know" these other things. But I guess I reflect on them to help me lessen the feelings of rejection as a woman.
And truthfully, I don't want to give up my therapist or my therapy for anything. Nothing would be worth it, except forever love - which we know is impossible.
But it is painful, no doubt about it.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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