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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 63. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Rigby on August 20, 2004, at 13:25:06
Hi All,
I was wondering. Last week in therapy I mentioned the first name of my partner's new therapist to my therapist. My therapist asked the last name of this other therapist. I told her and she seemed excited because she knew this therapist and really liked her. I didn't think much of it at the time but I think it sort of triggered a lot of boundary violation stuff she did with me in the beginning.
Question: would you consider this a boundary violation--her asking my partner's therapist's name? It seemed "off" to me.
Also, and this is just a "vibe" thing but I get that a therapist should be involved in your case but man, sometimes I just feel that she's *really* involved. She's said before to me that she was overly involved with me. More recently we talked about "rules" and her bending them. I asked how she bent the rules for me. She thought for a while and her response was: I spend an awful lot of time thinking about you (or something like that.) I just let that one go.
Another example: there's this guy I've been attracted to. Last week he told me he'd fallen in love with me. When I told my therapist this she said, "That's what you wanted, right?" And I said, "Did I say that?" And she responded YES so instantly and emphatically that it seemed WEIRD. Ack. Weird. I mean I actually had to laugh and I made a joke it was so emphatic.
Lately, especially, my life has gotten **really** complicated. I fear that it's triggering her stuff and it concerns me. She has said she and I are very much alike in someways and some stuff happening to me now, I know, parallels some stuff in her life.
Now more than ever I need to really know she's got my best interests in mind and I'm fairly concerned.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Posted by lucy stone on August 20, 2004, at 13:59:39
In reply to Boundary Stuff, posted by Rigby on August 20, 2004, at 13:25:06
> Hi All,
>
> I was wondering. Last week in therapy I mentioned the first name of my partner's new therapist to my therapist. My therapist asked the last name of this other therapist. I told her and she seemed excited because she knew this therapist and really liked her. I didn't think much of it at the time but I think it sort of triggered a lot of boundary violation stuff she did with me in the beginning.
>
> Question: would you consider this a boundary violation--her asking my partner's therapist's name? It seemed "off" to me.
>
It doesn't really seem like a boundary violation to me. Some Ts are better than others and that is probably known around the T community. She may have been trying to make sure that your partner was seeing a good T as an extention of her caring about you. However, if it made you uncomfortable then it was a boundary violation. Boundaries are set by both patient and T, not just by the T. You would have had every right to tell her that you did not feel comfortable sharing that information. You could still tell her that it made you uncomfortable.
> Also, and this is just a "vibe" thing but I get that a therapist should be involved in your case but man, sometimes I just feel that she's *really* involved. She's said before to me that she was overly involved with me. More recently we talked about "rules" and her bending them. I asked how she bent the rules for me. She thought for a while and her response was: I spend an awful lot of time thinking about you (or something like that.) I just let that one go.
>This does seem like a boudary violation to me. If boundaries are set for a good reason the T as a professional should not bend them without a very good reason. If a T does bend them in a way that is not obvious the T should correct the situation. What good did sharing this information do you? If it didn't help you she shouldn't share, after all she is there only to help you. If she has her own issues she needs to take care of those on her own, perhaps with the help of supervision or consultation.
> Another example: there's this guy I've been attracted to. Last week he told me he'd fallen in love with me. When I told my therapist this she said, "That's what you wanted, right?" And I said, "Did I say that?" And she responded YES so instantly and emphatically that it seemed WEIRD. Ack. Weird. I mean I actually had to laugh and I made a joke it was so emphatic.
>
You "ack" made me think that you were made uncomforatble by her empathy. Is this because this degree of empathy is unusual for you? Maybe it's a good thing and you will come to see it to be of value to you. If you didn't like because it seems like it goes beyond a therapy empathy it could be a problem. Can you discuss this with her?> Lately, especially, my life has gotten **really** complicated. I fear that it's triggering her stuff and it concerns me. She has said she and I are very much alike in someways and some stuff happening to me now, I know, parallels some stuff in her life.
>
Do you like hearing this and does it help you? If not, you might need to tell her that it doesn't help you to hear this.> Now more than ever I need to really know she's got my best interests in mind and I'm fairly concerned.
>I don't know for sure, but from what you have posted it does seem that she has your best interets in mind. She may be using a way of expressing this that is not helpful to you. It seems clear to me that she does care about you and wants to help you. Could you find a way to suggest that she might be sharing a bit too much of her own issues with you? I am hopeful that she would be open to changing her approach a bit.
> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
Posted by tabitha on August 20, 2004, at 14:29:29
In reply to Boundary Stuff, posted by Rigby on August 20, 2004, at 13:25:06
I would be bothered by her wanting to know the full name of the therapist and commenting on it. I talk about a therapist friend sometime and I'm careful to never mention his full name. The sessions are supposed to be about me-- it seems like telling real names of other therapists would turn it into gossip somehow. People have different ideas about boundaries. Maybe it would be useful to tell her how you felt about this.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 20, 2004, at 17:31:52
In reply to Boundary Stuff, posted by Rigby on August 20, 2004, at 13:25:06
The comment about how she thinks a lot about you seems worrisome to me. While it may feel good to hear her say that, it is not professional. I also don't think she should be talking about rule bending.
Before my current T, I saw a LCSW for a while and she treated me more like a girlfriend than a client. I really disliked that. I knew I needed strict boundaries and a relationship which was very professional. Others appreciate less strict boundaries and it works for them. So this is just my opinion.
To me, when boundaries are crossed and rules are "bent", the therapy is no longer all about you.
I have also learned that if you have to question something about boundaries, that usually means they have been crossed and the therapeutic frame has been compromised.
Posted by shrinking violet on August 20, 2004, at 18:57:20
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 20, 2004, at 17:31:52
I think a lot of this is subjective. Once my sister told me that her T asked the name of my T, and my sister told her, and her T commented that she had heard that my T was good. Neither one of us thought much about it.
>> The comment about how she thinks a lot about you seems worrisome to me. While it may feel good to hear her say that, it is not professional.
Hm, again I think maybe this is subjective. My T often tells me that she cares about me, and that she thinks of me, and sometimes (usually if I'm particularly upset or if she's leaving for a vacation) she'll tell me that she will hold me in her thoughts. After a recent vacation she told me some of what she did, and then said I was on her mind through much of it. I think it helps me feel that I'm keeping my connection to her, and vice-versa, although I agree that sometimes comments like that can cause us to question the boundaries and wonder *how* exactly they think of us, or care for us (within the therapy or outside of it?).
>
> Before my current T, I saw a LCSW for a while and she treated me more like a girlfriend than a client. I really disliked that.Hm, my T is a LICSW at my University where I'm a graduate student. While she is a good T in many respects, I often wonder whether I'm too much of a case for her. Mostly, she deals with undergrads who have fairly superficial issues, and someone like me with multiple, complex, and deeply ingrained issues, who would need longer term work than I would be allowed to see her as a T, I think sometimes I'm beyond her realm of experience. But then again, every T has his or her own style, so perhaps that's what it is also. My T is an open, friendly person by nature (although she can be very private also), but I do think she treats me somewhat differently than her other clients, and I think she shares more with me (although that's mostly speculation).
>> I have also learned that if you have to question something about boundaries, that usually means they have been crossed and the therapeutic frame has been compromised.
This statement is making me think, since I have often questioned my T and wondered whether she has pretty much eradicated boundaries with me. It feels that way, but then again, I'm not inside her head so perhaps she has reasons for the things she does/says, and/or lets me get away with. I often wonder if I'll need therapy after her just to get over having had therapy with her.
In general, though, if *you* feel uncomfortable with anything your T does or says, then you should bring it up with her. Perhaps she is letting boundaries slip but isn't aware of it, or perhaps she feels she has concrete reasons for doing or saying what she has. Talk to her, see what she says, and let her know how you feel and what conduct you would prefer she use with you.
Posted by Susan47 on August 20, 2004, at 20:28:17
In reply to Boundary Stuff, posted by Rigby on August 20, 2004, at 13:25:06
Rigby,
Sounds like she's got something for you. Sounds like my type of behaviour. Oh dear.
Posted by Susan47 on August 20, 2004, at 20:29:44
In reply to Boundary Stuff, posted by Rigby on August 20, 2004, at 13:25:06
Pssst, by the way I think it's wonderful that someone is in love with you. Is it wonderful? Hope so, for you.
Posted by Susan47 on August 20, 2004, at 20:33:11
In reply to Boundary Stuff, posted by Rigby on August 20, 2004, at 13:25:06
Sorry for posting yet again lovey (Rigby) but it doesn't sound like she's done anything against your interests... that's only a dumb opinion though and means nada. I'll read what everyone else said, now.
Posted by Susan47 on August 20, 2004, at 20:42:19
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by shrinking violet on August 20, 2004, at 18:57:20
You said this, "I often wonder if I'll need therapy after her just to get over having had therapy with her."
Change it to "him" and I have the same wonder. Thanks for voicing this.
Posted by Susan47 on August 20, 2004, at 21:19:40
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 20, 2004, at 17:31:52
Miss Honey, you said, "I have also learned that if you have to question something about boundaries, that usually means they have been crossed and the therapeutic frame has been compromised."
Ouch, it made me wonder how clients have to pay therapists who cross boundaries. That just makes me really upset. And the fact that the T is learning about himself all the time and adjusting his methods to suit. Yuck.
Posted by gardenergirl on August 20, 2004, at 22:46:55
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Miss Honeychurch, posted by Susan47 on August 20, 2004, at 21:19:40
Rigby,
My thoughts are mixed on this. I think asking the last name might be going a little too far. It seems like it made you uncomfortable, and that, like others said, is a sign to pay attention to. I suppose there are times, though that I have been curious, and perhaps it just got the best of her?Regarding her saying she thinks about you outside of therapy...I don't know if I would tell a client that. But, I do think of clients outside of therapy. It's hard not to, when you love what you do and are stimulated by it. Also if you are still learning, which I think a good T is always doing. That said, I don't think I would frame it like she did. If I had a specific thought I wanted to share with the client, I might say something like "I got to thinking about you and ....". To keep it more focused and specific.
Now, I just have to share an experience I had with my advisor at school that your post reminded me of and perhaps speaks to the dangers of sharing outside life with clients. My advisor told me once when we were having some boundary issues ourselves that he does a lot of his best thinking while in the shower. He then proceeded to tell me an insight he had about our working relationship and recent problems. OMG! He was thinking of me while he was in the shower! was all I could think. Ewwww, the visual image!
Take care,
gg
Posted by Dinah on August 20, 2004, at 22:50:57
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by gardenergirl on August 20, 2004, at 22:46:55
Posted by Susan47 on August 20, 2004, at 22:56:03
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by gardenergirl on August 20, 2004, at 22:46:55
The thought of my ex-T in the shower just sends me. I'm sick and he's gorgeous. Life.
Posted by steelmagnolia25 on August 21, 2004, at 20:49:47
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by gardenergirl on August 20, 2004, at 22:46:55
> My advisor told me once when we were having some boundary issues ourselves that he does a lot of his best thinking while in the shower. He then proceeded to tell me an insight he had about our working relationship and recent problems. OMG! He was thinking of me while he was in the shower! was all I could think. Ewwww, the visual image!
>
>I echo OMG! I had a somewhat related conversation with my ex-T. He told me once that he "takes me home with him" when we were discussing his feelings for me. A few sessions later I told him that I would prefer that he only use direct statements with minimal ambiguity because I hate guessing what he means. He asked for an example, so I said, "When you said you take me home with you, does that mean you think about me during off-hours with a normal therapist's concern, or are you thinking of me while you're in the shower?" Well, to be honest it might have been a bit more bawdy than that, but fortunately, we both got a good laugh out of it, and he clarified that he wasn't referring to his shower!
Posted by Rigby on August 22, 2004, at 12:11:46
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by lucy stone on August 20, 2004, at 13:59:39
Hi Lucy,
Thanks for your response. Yeah, I think that asking the therapist's name wasnt' a huge, huge deal but I think it just triggered her boundary stuff from way back more than anything. And she immediately brought it up this past week so I didn't even need to so that was a good catch on her end.
But yeah, I do think the, "I think about you alot" as an example of her admitting that she bends rules was and is a bit odd. I guess it's okay--as long as her extreme interest helps me I'm okay with it. She has told me that she has a therapist and somewhere along the line I think she said something about her discussing this with this person so she does get some level of supervision or advise from someone else (a good thing.)
When she instantly responded that I wanted this guy to fall in love with me it just seemed so hair-trigger. I dunno. Maybe she is empathizing but it felt like her emotions--her own emotions--were involved. Just a vibe but it makes me think. She then said, "Now that you've landed your prey, what are you going to do with him?" and I thought that was pretty nasty--like I'm some sorta black widow spider (yuck!)
We've discussed some of the stuff already, like boundary violations. We've talked about her life in parallel with mine. Note: she doesn't self-disclose left and right but I was referred to her by a friend who was roommates with her so I know a few details--not a lot but some basics. And I found this website an ex-boyfriend put up about her so I've got that info too which has been very strange (be careful what you Google.)
I guess though, on the whole, she does have my best interests at heart. I do think she struggles though with making sure she keeps her boundaries clear with me and I don't know why (her stuff.)
Posted by Rigby on August 22, 2004, at 12:19:48
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Rigby, posted by tabitha on August 20, 2004, at 14:29:29
Hi Tabitha,
Thanks for writing.
She did apologize for this pretty quickly so that was cool. And it did feel a bit gossipy but not horrible or anything. To me the worst was that it triggered my feelings of how poorly therapy went for me in the beginning--and how my therapist messed up her boundaries before.
We did talk about how her remark triggered me to think back on my therapy. I guess what I didn't talk about was exactly what I'm saying to you about boundaries. She was inconsistent; she got overly involved and admitted this--that I'd drawn her in and she was in too deep. Then she pulled way back, was as cold as she was warm and I reeled from that for a while. I finally was able to actually make some great progress from her doing that but maybe that was more like making lemonade from lemons than great therapy. Hmmm...
> I would be bothered by her wanting to know the full name of the therapist and commenting on it. I talk about a therapist friend sometime and I'm careful to never mention his full name. The sessions are supposed to be about me-- it seems like telling real names of other therapists would turn it into gossip somehow. People have different ideas about boundaries. Maybe it would be useful to tell her how you felt about this.
Posted by Rigby on August 22, 2004, at 12:32:29
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 20, 2004, at 17:31:52
Hi Miss HC,
Yeah, I also thought it was a tad bit creepy. Especially in the context of finding an example for me of how she bends rules. To me it meant that she herself thinks it's unusual or something to be thinking about a particular client as much as she does.
My gut feel is, as you say, that I'm questioning her boundaries because there is reason to. I think she has to be effortful to do that with me for whatever reason. Part of me just really wants to ask her what the deal is. I wonder if she'd answer honestly.
> The comment about how she thinks a lot about you seems worrisome to me. While it may feel good to hear her say that, it is not professional. I also don't think she should be talking about rule bending.
>
> Before my current T, I saw a LCSW for a while and she treated me more like a girlfriend than a client. I really disliked that. I knew I needed strict boundaries and a relationship which was very professional. Others appreciate less strict boundaries and it works for them. So this is just my opinion.
>
> To me, when boundaries are crossed and rules are "bent", the therapy is no longer all about you.
>
> I have also learned that if you have to question something about boundaries, that usually means they have been crossed and the therapeutic frame has been compromised.
Posted by Rigby on August 22, 2004, at 12:36:03
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by shrinking violet on August 20, 2004, at 18:57:20
Hi SV,
I think if a therapist says that they think of you it's one thing. I think that because my therapist gave me this as an example of her rule-bending for me, well, that's another deal. Like I've said in the other posts though, I think generally she's pretty good but I'm gun-shy given what happened in the beginning with her.
Thanks for your response!
Posted by Rigby on August 22, 2004, at 12:40:56
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by Susan47 on August 20, 2004, at 20:33:11
Hi Susan,
I agree--I don't think she's trying to harm me or anything and I do think she has my best interests at heart so it's not a dumb opinion at all!!
Thanks for responding!
Posted by Rigby on August 22, 2004, at 12:49:02
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by gardenergirl on August 20, 2004, at 22:46:55
GG,
Sometimes I just wonder about her. Like I feel like she's following my story like you'd follow a soap opera (and god knows my life has been a pretty major soap opera lately) and it just seems like she says she has a problem sometimes remembering stuff but she knows every freaking detail and every name and everything I've said and every tiny incident I've mentioned. It's hard to describe but I sort of wonder if therapists get more interested in the "story" and get sidetracked there vs. helping the client?
Granted, I will come in there with a bunch of stuff that's happened and it *really* is like a drama unfolding. So maybe it's my fault or something. I'm not, however, trying to entertain her either. It's my life that's unfolding or unraveling or whatever.
Maybe I wonder if she's helping me that much lately gather insights. Maybe it's that answers are so hard to come by and I expect her to give me some or help me to guide me to some and lately I've not seen that.
Thanks for listening and for your response. And yeah, the visual of your therapist in the shower, assuming he's not exactly your type, is, well, a tad off-putting!!
> My thoughts are mixed on this. I think asking the last name might be going a little too far. It seems like it made you uncomfortable, and that, like others said, is a sign to pay attention to. I suppose there are times, though that I have been curious, and perhaps it just got the best of her?
>
> Regarding her saying she thinks about you outside of therapy...I don't know if I would tell a client that. But, I do think of clients outside of therapy. It's hard not to, when you love what you do and are stimulated by it. Also if you are still learning, which I think a good T is always doing. That said, I don't think I would frame it like she did. If I had a specific thought I wanted to share with the client, I might say something like "I got to thinking about you and ....". To keep it more focused and specific.
>
> Now, I just have to share an experience I had with my advisor at school that your post reminded me of and perhaps speaks to the dangers of sharing outside life with clients. My advisor told me once when we were having some boundary issues ourselves that he does a lot of his best thinking while in the shower. He then proceeded to tell me an insight he had about our working relationship and recent problems. OMG! He was thinking of me while he was in the shower! was all I could think. Ewwww, the visual image!
>
> Take care,
> gg
Posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 16:00:09
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » lucy stone, posted by Rigby on August 22, 2004, at 12:11:46
When you said this, She then said, "Now that you've landed your prey, what are you going to do with him?" I was shocked to think any therapist talks that way. I wonder what part of her *that* was from.
Posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 16:09:16
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » gardenergirl, posted by Rigby on August 22, 2004, at 12:49:02
Rigby it sounds like you don't trust your therapist.. it sounds like you're going through some of the stuff I did in therapy. What's the very first thing she ever did, do you remember, that made her seem compromised to you? 'Cause I can remember with mine.
Posted by gardenergirl on August 22, 2004, at 19:35:07
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » gardenergirl, posted by Rigby on August 22, 2004, at 12:49:02
You know, the way you describe your take on her reactions, it almosts sounds like maybe she is getting something out of your life vicariously? Her reaction to the new love is also a bit like that, or just projection on her part. I think your gut is telling you something, just not sure what.
Oh, and it was my advisor from school (boss, supervisor at one point, and now dissertation chair), not my therapist. Shoot, now I have an image of my T in the shower! Neither one is my type at all. ewwwww.
:)
Warmly,
gg
Posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 1:09:16
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Rigby, posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 16:09:16
I can't remember the first incident but there were plenty of them. The one I do remember though was when she said something like there being no way around how she felt about me--that I was special to her. She said she didn't have what she had with me with her other clients. When I asked what she meant she said she had more distance. She then pointed out some stuff I'd given her--a plant and a book. I said those were representative of my work in therapy. She said, "But you gave them to me!" (Bizarro.) After me being wigged out about it, finally, months later she apologized, saying she was on prednisone and it made her very wired and although she didn't take any of it back she did say she shouldn't have said it. She said that perhaps I didn't do well knowing how she really felt (I had wanted to know how she felt and when she finally told me it felt unsafe.) What did yours do?
> Rigby it sounds like you don't trust your therapist.. it sounds like you're going through some of the stuff I did in therapy. What's the very first thing she ever did, do you remember, that made her seem compromised to you? 'Cause I can remember with mine.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 10:23:10
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Susan47, posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 1:09:16
Stared at body parts he probably shouldn't have. I understand men looking at women. I looked at his beautiful ass too. But I did it when his back was turned. Hmhm. He made a display of himself looking at parts of me. I don't know, maybe it was just honesty? But I read facial expressions, it's what I do. And he was in fantasyland.
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