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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Brainbeard on October 6, 2009, at 15:48:58
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard., posted by metafunj on October 5, 2009, at 16:52:16
> You don't think it would start doing a lot of SRI at that dosage?
No bro. In my experience, any SRI was barely noticeable at that dose. 5HT2C-antagonism won't go through the roof either, but a little bit can make a big difference, unlike with SRI. THat's what I gather from this in-depth research article: http://www.pnas.org/content/94/5/2036.full.pdf
Posted by metafunj on October 6, 2009, at 21:07:04
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard., posted by Brainbeard on October 6, 2009, at 15:48:58
So what I'm taking from what your saying is that you noticed an increase in energy, motivation, concentration, mood, and perhaps libido while on 5mg/day prozac but didn't notice much of the relaxing, spacy, numbing effects from SRI?
Thanks for posting that study by the way. Very informative, although I wish I understood those charts better.
What dose Buspar did you notice was activating?
Posted by Brainbeard on October 7, 2009, at 14:03:54
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard. » Brainbeard, posted by metafunj on October 6, 2009, at 21:07:04
> So what I'm taking from what your saying is that you noticed an increase in energy, motivation, concentration, mood, and perhaps libido while on 5mg/day prozac but didn't notice much of the relaxing, spacy, numbing effects from SRI?
Energy - yeah. Motivation - uhuh. Concentration - perhaps. Mood - certainly. Libido - I guess so.
If any SRI was going on, it was a top secret operation.
>
> Thanks for posting that study by the way. Very informative, although I wish I understood those charts better.Yeah, I wish I understood a little more than just that 1%.
>
> What dose Buspar did you notice was activating?I think 3 x 10mg did the trick. You could also try higher doses.
Cheers,
BB
Posted by metafunj on October 7, 2009, at 18:24:08
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard., posted by Brainbeard on October 7, 2009, at 14:03:54
Sounds good man. I've been taking 5 every other day for about a week and a half but I don't feel anything other than occasional sharp pains in my head like I got when starting lexapro.
5mgs of Lexapro had noticable SRI effects after the first pill.
Posted by Brainbeard on October 8, 2009, at 6:45:56
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard. » Brainbeard, posted by metafunj on October 7, 2009, at 18:24:08
> Sounds good man. I've been taking 5 every other day for about a week and a half but I don't feel anything other than occasional sharp pains in my head like I got when starting lexapro.
>
> 5mgs of Lexapro had noticable SRI effects after the first pill.
Yeah well, you can't compare Lexapro to Prozac. Lexapro is ultrapotent, Prozac is weak as p i s s . Plus, Prozac 's SRI takes a lot longer to kick in. The reason why it kicks in fast for some people is its 5HT2C-antagonism.
Posted by metafunj on October 11, 2009, at 12:22:48
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard., posted by Brainbeard on October 8, 2009, at 6:45:56
So far I don't notice anything at 5 Mgs a day except for feeling slightly drowsy in the morning and headaches. Also I tend to be eating less not more.
Posted by Brainbeard on October 11, 2009, at 14:22:56
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard., posted by metafunj on October 11, 2009, at 12:22:48
> So far I don't notice anything at 5 Mgs a day except for feeling slightly drowsy in the morning and headaches. Also I tend to be eating less not more.
You should take Buspar with it. Buspar boosts the dopamine up further when combined with Prozac.
Thing is, the effect of low dose Prozac is pretty.. subtle. So if you're expecting anything spectacular, you're bound to be disappointed. For me, the moodlifting effect was quite noticeable, but I also had moments of intense despair while on this combination. One token of 5HT2C-antagonism in my case was that I unexpectedly but rapidly gained weight while on low dose Prozac - and it took pretty long to lose it after I quit.
Right now, I'm taking amitriptyline for 5HT2C-antagonism. Well, amitriptyline actually is a 5HT2C inverse agonist, according to some sources, but who cares, since the effect seems to be the same. Amitriptyline is also a 5HT2A-antagonist. I had outruled it as an option for 5HT2A/C-antagonism because it's such a strong antihistaminergic. But I've discovered that I become tolerant to its sedation rather quickly. I reached 50mg recently and the benefits of 5HT2A/C-antagonism are there for sure. Lifted mood, renewed energy and motivation, and beyond doubt, restored sex drive and sexual function. Not bad for such a golden oldie. Only trouble is the anticholinergic side-effect of brain fog.
Yesterday night, I decided to do a little experiment (n=1) and take 100mg of Zoloft (sertraline) with 50mg of amitriptyline. Theoretically, amitriptyline, by its 5HT2A-antagonism, should counter Zolofts tendency to disrupt sound sleep. I've tried 100mg of Zoloft before and slept very bad on it. This time, with the 50mg of amitriptyline added, I slept like a log. I didn't get the chance to test my sexual functioning on this combination today. Theoretically, the right amount of amitriptyline should also counter SSRI-induced sexual dysfunction.
Posted by metafunj on October 11, 2009, at 14:44:53
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard., posted by Brainbeard on October 11, 2009, at 14:22:56
Thats funny cuz i was just reading about amitriptyline, but I think its SRI effect is too strong. I honestly don't think I need any of that.
Maybe remeron would be good it has similar activity but no anticholinergic effects. My concentration and short term memory are pretty bad since coming off prozac.
Maybe a stimulant would be ok. I've never tried one before.
Posted by Brainbeard on October 11, 2009, at 15:10:24
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard., posted by metafunj on October 11, 2009, at 14:44:53
Amitriptyline's SRI is not very strong, but admittedly it is there. The SRI to 5HT2A-antagonism ratio of amitriptyline might be similar to that of Prozac (slightly stronger SRI), but again, I think only a little 5HT2A/C-antagonism can do the trick, while a little SRI is probably hardly noticeable.
Mirtazapine (Remeron) is actually such a strong 5HT2C-blocker that the side-effects of 5HT2C-antagonism - constant food craving, massive weight gain - may outweigh the benefits. It's also a stronger antihistaminergic than amitriptyline - probably it's the strongest antihistaminergic on the planet.
I myself am living proof that you can become tolerant to H1-antagonism, but there could be a limit to such tolerance. Remeron seems to reduce many people's ambitions to sleeping, eating and having sex.
Still, I would like to try it sometime. With amitriptyline, the potential cardiac risk bothers me (I'm a hypochondriac, so there I go).
Posted by metafunj on October 11, 2009, at 17:41:49
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard., posted by Brainbeard on October 11, 2009, at 15:10:24
What exactly is your DX if you don't mind me asking? Why would you want to try remeron if what you are taking is working?
Also I don't think Prozac antagonizes the 5 HT2A receptor, but maybe down regulates it eventually.
I'll be seeing my doctor soon and hopefully get a script for buspar. If these serotonin blocking/reducing drugs don't work I may have to go with something that directly release dopamine.
Posted by Brainbeard on October 12, 2009, at 15:39:11
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard., posted by metafunj on October 11, 2009, at 17:41:49
> What exactly is your DX if you don't mind me asking?
Don't mind. OCD, depression, schizo-affective disorder, hypochondria. Wife thinks I have Non-Verbal Learning Disorder.
>Why would you want to try remeron if what you are taking is working?
Well, as I said, because amitriptyline is a bit hard on the heart, and knowing this causes me hypochondric chest pains. Well, at least, I hope they're hypochondric.
> Also I don't think Prozac antagonizes the 5 HT2A receptor, but maybe down regulates it eventually.Yeah, I didn't say it was a 5HT2A-antagonist, or did I? If I did it was a slip of the keyboard. Claude Rifat (God have his soul) even thought that Prozac was a 5HT2A-*AGONIST* - because it causes, according to his experience (he belonged to the lost generation of heroic psychiatrists and pharmacochemists who tested meds on themselves), what he called 'subhallucinations'.
> I'll be seeing my doctor soon and hopefully get a script for buspar.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9048781
>If these serotonin blocking/reducing drugs don't work I may have to go with something that directly release dopamine.
I wish we had Adderall here (Holland), or Dexedrine. The best you can get here is Ritalin. Of course, you can always clamp a junkie and buy some old school meth - but that stuff likes to play bowling with your teeth, not to mention its promotion of pre-mortem brain decomposition.
Posted by g_g_g_unit on October 12, 2009, at 22:31:00
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard., posted by Brainbeard on October 12, 2009, at 15:39:11
> > What exactly is your DX if you don't mind me asking?
>
> Don't mind. OCD, depression, schizo-affective disorder, hypochondria. Wife thinks I have Non-Verbal Learning Disorder.
>are you taking anything aside from the amitriptyline at the moment? i have OCD, hyponchondria and, like you (from what i can gather?), an interest in preserving, or at least minimizing disruptions to, cognitive functioning on meds.
my doc is pushing for me to try anafranil at the moment (he begrudgingly has me trialling parnate), but i'm scared off by the s/e's. did you ever try it for OCD? sounds promising, but sadly anything that numbs me/dumbs me down too much also saps my social/professional confidence etc.
Posted by metafunj on October 12, 2009, at 23:01:13
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard., posted by Brainbeard on October 12, 2009, at 15:39:11
My main dx is depression but the only part of depression i experience is anhedonia along with cognitive problems, which were in the ADHD range when given a preliminary test. This leads me to think my problem is dopaminergic.
I'm never suicidal, sad, or cry very often.
Hopefully I'll get some buspar next week and get a DA boost. I've read its important not to take too much Buspar as one of its metabolites 1-PP has negative side effects.
Posted by Brainbeard on October 13, 2009, at 11:36:17
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard., posted by g_g_g_unit on October 12, 2009, at 22:31:00
> are you taking anything aside from the amitriptyline at the moment? i have OCD, hyponchondria and, like you (from what i can gather?), an interest in preserving, or at least minimizing disruptions to, cognitive functioning on meds.
Yes, I'm taking 25mg of sertraline (Zoloft) and 900mg of gabapentin (Neurontin) at the moment, while I've also been using 12.5-25mg of imipramine and might restart that if necessary. I'm trying to find out wether the gabapentin is doing something for my chronic jaw pain, that's why I removed the imipramine (and should remove the amitriptyline, but that's not very easy).
I take benzo's PRN. I got lorazepam on prescription, though I have found out that I like diazepam (Valium) better.Right now, preserving sound cognitive functioning is not top priority for me, since I don't have a job (I'm in daytime treatment). I'm still able to read and understand Calvin's Institution.. (In a Dutch translation, I admit it.)
>>my doc is pushing for me to try anafranil at the moment (he begrudgingly has me trialling parnate), but i'm scared off by the s/e's. did you ever try it for OCD? sounds promising, but sadly anything that numbs me/dumbs me down too much also saps my social/professional confidence >>etc.
It's a good suggestion by your doc. Clomipramine (Anafranil) is probably the best med around for OCD. The side-effects can admittedly be rather incovenient.
I did indeed try it for OCD and depression, and especially as an antidepressant, it was quite promising. I didn't reach a higher dose than 100mg. I was thrown off at last by one of the side-effects it caused me: severe and even painful sensitivity of my eyes to sunlight, which made me too anxious to continue using the drug. (Although perhaps I should have endured it long enough to overcome my anxiety).
Further, it made me constipated, but this could be solved by a simple and relatively harmless laxative (lactulose syrop). It also gave me a very dry mouth - at the higher dose, I was walking around with a bottle of water all day at work. Also, clomipramine was the heaviest SRI suppressor of sound sexual functioning I have ever taken. It seriously made me wonder while having sex what the hell I was doing - now that's a very unnatural thought for me.
The anticholinergic brain fog was indeed quite noticeable, but it came along with elevated mood and more, rather than less, self-confidence in social situations. As for the brain fog, one time I found myself in the shopping mall, and couldn't figure out why I was there...
Posted by Brainbeard on October 13, 2009, at 11:57:14
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard. » Brainbeard, posted by metafunj on October 12, 2009, at 23:01:13
> My main dx is depression but the only part of depression i experience is anhedonia along with cognitive problems, which were in the ADHD range when given a preliminary test. This leads me to think my problem is dopaminergic.
Yeah, well, no problem is probably simply 'dopaminergic' or 'serotonergic' in nature - as for one thing, these neurotransmitter systems are very closely intertwined, but I see what you mean of course. You could try imipramine, which has been used for ADD (and ADHD?), or its metabolite desipramine, if you wanna avoid SRI.
> I'm never suicidal, sad, or cry very often.Never sad? Wanna swap brains?
>
> Hopefully I'll get some buspar next week and get a DA boost. I've read its important not to take too much Buspar as one of its metabolites 1-PP has negative side effects.
>Yeah, well, I wouldn't think too much of the 1-PP metabolite.. There are indeed several studies that seem to indicate that low dose Buspar might be more effective than high dose. But still, some people get rave results with higher doses. I recommend this study for an original look at low- and high dose buspirone: http://www.pni.org/neuropsychiatry/aggression/buspirone/
The author suggests that 'Low doses may correspond with a presynaptic agonism with a feedback loop producing overall postsynaptic antagonism at all serotonin receptors. This would imply a short delay, such as days, which is what one finds. Conversely, high dosage, postsynaptic agonism in the irritable hyperactive agitated kind of patient would imply a secondary regulation of the serotonin 2A receptor, with consequent serotonin 2 antagonism: this may characterize an intimate, inverse feedback relationship with serotonin 2 mechanisms.' This also reminds me of Stephen Stahl who has argued that 5HT1A-agonists work synergistically with 5HT2A-antagonists.
While buspirone in lower doses decreases serotonine levels, I have seen a research abstract that showed that a single dose of 20mg (already considered a high dose) 'significantly increased levels of noradrenaline, dopamine, and free serotonin' (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9826102).Still, higher dose buspirone will cause higher prolactin levels, and buspirone is also a partial D2-antagonist. So the story is inevitably complicated.
A 30mg dose of Buspar gives me sort of a dizzy, buzzy boost that is actually enjoyable. I've been taking 30mg both after breakfast and after dinner for a while. In the afternoon, it gave me a rapid heartbeat and made me stressy. Eventually, I have decided to cut back to 10mg thrice a day, since I didn't find the higher doses worthwhile enough.
Only a little experimentation will show what works best for you.
Posted by g_g_g_unit on October 13, 2009, at 22:13:45
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard., posted by Brainbeard on October 13, 2009, at 11:36:17
> Right now, preserving sound cognitive functioning is not top priority for me, since I don't have a job (I'm in daytime treatment). I'm still able to read and understand Calvin's Institution.. (In a Dutch translation, I admit it.)
>
> >>my doc is pushing for me to try anafranil at the moment (he begrudgingly has me trialling parnate), but i'm scared off by the s/e's. did you ever try it for OCD? sounds promising, but sadly anything that numbs me/dumbs me down too much also saps my social/professional confidence >>etc.
>
> It's a good suggestion by your doc. Clomipramine (Anafranil) is probably the best med around for OCD. The side-effects can admittedly be rather incovenient.
>
> I did indeed try it for OCD and depression, and especially as an antidepressant, it was quite promising. I didn't reach a higher dose than 100mg. I was thrown off at last by one of the side-effects it caused me: severe and even painful sensitivity of my eyes to sunlight, which made me too anxious to continue using the drug. (Although perhaps I should have endured it long enough to overcome my anxiety).
>
> Further, it made me constipated, but this could be solved by a simple and relatively harmless laxative (lactulose syrop). It also gave me a very dry mouth - at the higher dose, I was walking around with a bottle of water all day at work. Also, clomipramine was the heaviest SRI suppressor of sound sexual functioning I have ever taken. It seriously made me wonder while having sex what the hell I was doing - now that's a very unnatural thought for me.
>
> The anticholinergic brain fog was indeed quite noticeable, but it came along with elevated mood and more, rather than less, self-confidence in social situations. As for the brain fog, one time I found myself in the shopping mall, and couldn't figure out why I was there...
>
>hmm, thanks for your thoughts. pity about the brain fog. part of my self-confidence in social situations comes with verbal fluency, emotional expressiveness, etc. so SSRI's are just totally deleterious in that respect. they turn me into a glorified plank of wood. was Clomipramine at least less emotionally numbing?
man it's tough making med decisions because part of my 'recovery' would mean going back to grad school, meeting people etc. (not to mention a lil sexual functioning). when depressed, my OCD symptoms are actually near-dormant because i feel so foggy and anhedonic. i'm trying to find a balance between more executive functioning without turning up the anxiety-dial. i was considering the really low SRI prozac dose discussed here (5mg) if Parnate doesn't work, since higher gave me insomnia. could i expect very little anxiety relief at that dose?
Posted by Brainbeard on October 14, 2009, at 12:54:07
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard. » Brainbeard, posted by g_g_g_unit on October 13, 2009, at 22:13:45
> was Clomipramine at least less emotionally numbing?It sure was (less emotionally numbing). Another thing I didn't mention though, was that the noradrenergic effect made me edgy sometimes. I have that with all NRI's, I think.
>
> i'm trying to find a balance between more executive functioning without turning up the anxiety-dial.Yeah, I recognize it. We're really stuck between a rock and a hard place, since stimulation usually comes with extra anxiety, while anxiety relief often comes with apathy or flatness.
>i was considering the really low SRI prozac dose discussed here (5mg) if Parnate doesn't work, since higher gave me insomnia. could i expect very little anxiety relief at that dose?
Well, 5HT2C-antagonism is supposed to bring some anxiety relief.
Posted by metafunj on October 15, 2009, at 19:50:28
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard., posted by Brainbeard on October 14, 2009, at 12:54:07
For some reason I feel worse since I started taking prozac even at 5mgs. At first I was even skipping dinner. I feel less interested in things than I was.
I wonder if low dose prozac is similar to a low dose AP. When one takes a low dose AP DA transmittion is increased. Maybe low dose 5HT2C inhibition without accompanying 5HT1A increases serotonergic transmittion to the other receptors that aren't blocked? God I don't know.
Posted by Brainbeard on October 16, 2009, at 3:15:41
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard., posted by metafunj on October 15, 2009, at 19:50:28
> For some reason I feel worse since I started taking prozac even at 5mgs. At first I was even skipping dinner. I feel less interested in things than I was.
>
> I wonder if low dose prozac is similar to a low dose AP. When one takes a low dose AP DA transmittion is increased. Maybe low dose 5HT2C inhibition without accompanying 5HT1A increases serotonergic transmittion to the other receptors that aren't blocked? God I don't know.You've said it.. It WOULD be interesting to see if you'd do better when you add buspirone.
I have to admit that while on low dose Prozac, I had these moments that would normally be 'a little low', but now felt completely desperate and hopeless. It seemed to be related to the Prozac and buspirone combo. These moments were all short, but not pleasant.
In fact, while I was on this combo, I also took some amineptine every now and then, the unique French dopaminergic antidepressant. I had obtained it from someone who has it manufactured as a research substance by a laboratory - it was ridiculously expensive. It did give a pleasant dopaminergic boost, but also increased my anxiety one out of two times.
Posted by metafunj on October 20, 2009, at 14:30:23
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard., posted by Brainbeard on October 16, 2009, at 3:15:41
Good and bad news. I got the Buspar, for some reason I was only given 5mgs. I guess I'll see how the different doses feel. I didn't feel anything after my initial doses.
The bad news is I've been taking prozac for a couple weeks and my blood pressure has gone from about 135/85 to 160/100. I also have a ringing in my ears which I believe is caused by the increase in blood pressure and maybe Prozac. I don't know how prozac does this. I read that it can irritate the blood vessels. I'm surprised because neither wellbutrin nor lexapro caused this reaction.
Also I feel kinda spacey and having on prozac which I thought was from the SRI, because it feels similar to how I felt on lexapro, but now I think it might be because of the increase in blood pressure.
Posted by Brainbeard on October 21, 2009, at 13:01:03
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard. » Brainbeard, posted by metafunj on October 20, 2009, at 14:30:23
High BP could be a noradrenergic side-effect. Same goes for the ringing in the ears, although that's more something you would expect with Wellbutrin.
Hm, high BP is not something to play around with.. You could consider adding pindolol, which has been documented to have a rave interaction with buspirone. \As a beta blocvker, it lowers BP, but it's also a 5HT1A-antagonist. Dunno about metabolic interactions though.
Posted by metafunj on October 22, 2009, at 21:32:14
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard., posted by Brainbeard on October 21, 2009, at 13:01:03
Well I think the HBP may have been a result of too much coffee that day. I didn't caffeine could have such an effect. I'm back to pre-hypertensive levels now since avoiding coffee, although I've been doing prozac every other day since then. Still I think the problem is the caffeine.
I can't explain the ear ringing. I did have ear ringing which was worse with wellbutrin, because there was a lower and a higher pitch ringing at the same time.
I think it might be noradrenic too but I don't know.
I may consider going back on ginkgo biloba for my BP depending on what med combination I end up on. I felt slightly better while on it a few years ago. I think it has some prodopaminergic properties.
I saw a post where you asked if D2 antagonism would make you less religous. Ever since coming off prozac and then taking ginkgo and coming off of that I have gone from being christian/spiritual to agonstic. Mainly I feel a loss of connection with my spiritual side which has allowed my logical side to dominate.
Do you have any evidence that makes you draw a connection with dopamine and religiosity?
Trust me if you switched brains with me like you suggested before you wouldn't be reading Calvin. ;-)
Posted by Brainbeard on October 23, 2009, at 5:36:42
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard. » Brainbeard, posted by metafunj on October 22, 2009, at 21:32:14
> I can't explain the ear ringing. I did have ear ringing which was worse with wellbutrin, because there was a lower and a higher pitch ringing at the same time.
Sounds interesting. Perhaps with the right combination of meds you could get harmonic tinnitus. ;)
> Do you have any evidence that makes you draw a connection with dopamine and religiosity?There is evidence, yeah. I saw headlines in the paper some time ago suggesting that the biochemical explanation of religion had finally been found - and it was dopamine. That is a gross oversimplification of course. But that dopamine is involved is already certain. Just think of schizofrenia - schizofrenics have their dopaminergic circuits going frenzy, and so they ascribe meaning to the most trivial details of everyday life and think that the world around them is full of coded messages especially for them. This is not very far removed from the christian who lives in a world full of meaning because it is the world of his creator and saviour; the world of a god actively involved with his well-being and every now and them speaking to him through the seemingly trivial details of every day life.
One could argue though, that the one is pathological while the other can be mentally sound.> Trust me if you switched brains with me like you suggested before you wouldn't be reading Calvin. ;-)
That's funny. :) Never mind the brain swap then.
I read a story once of a woman who had her amalgam fillings removed and claimed that she had become much more spiritual afterwards.
Marihuana, which is also a dopamine booster of sorts, sometimes stimulated my feeling for religion enormously.
Posted by metafunj on October 23, 2009, at 10:04:50
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard., posted by Brainbeard on October 23, 2009, at 5:36:42
Hmm, when I was religious after coming off prozac i was going a bit overboard. I'm actually glad that I'm not feeling that way anymore. It was too much of a burden always seeing things with a religious context.
That's strange about the amalgam fillings. I didn't really think there was anything wrong with mercury fillings. Maybe it was psychosomatic?
You might be right about the noradrenic effect, but nortryptaline is supposed to be good for treating tinnitus and that increase NA.
It stinks that Prozac and Wellbutrin seem to increase NA before DA, since I don't think I need much NA and they seem to hit with side effects. I'd rather not have to take an addictive drug if I can avoid it.
Posted by Brainbeard on October 23, 2009, at 12:36:00
In reply to Re: question for brainbeard. » Brainbeard, posted by metafunj on October 23, 2009, at 10:04:50
> I didn't really think there was anything wrong with mercury fillings.Don't get me started about amalgam fillings. Suffice it to say that mercury is about the strongest neurotoxin (brain-cell destroyer) on the planet, and mercury release from amalgam fillings is the no. 1 source of mercury in our bodies, much more so than eating fish. Mercury vapours are being released when people with amalgam fillings chew, brush their teeth, drink hot liquors, etc. When an amalgam filling is being drilled in, massive amounts of mercury vapour are being released, inhaled by both patient and dentist. In Sweden, amalgam fillings have been prohibited by national law. It's only a matter of time to see what a big mistake amalgam fillings have been. You could compare it to asbestos. Like I said, don't get me started..
> You might be right about the noradrenic effect, but nortryptaline is supposed to be good for treating tinnitus and that increase NA.
Most meds that help with tinnitus also cause tinnitus, so their help is probably not so much physical as psychological - i.e., when depression and negative focus lift, tinnitus subjectively gets a lot better.
> It stinks that Prozac and Wellbutrin seem to increase NA before DA, since I don't think I need much NA and they seem to hit with side effects. I'd rather not have to take an addictive drug if I can avoid it.Yeah, most dopaminergic drugs around are crappy, and the street alternatives are only slightly better for your brain than mercury.
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