![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 32 to 56 of 62. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on February 26, 2011, at 19:34:13
In reply to Re: Ferber » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on February 26, 2011, at 19:21:50
But I do apologize if I got a bit heated.
I know no one intended offense, and I hope everyone realizes that I didn't either.
I do think it's important to do studies on what *actions* are good or bad for babies, long term. And on the interpersonal dynamics between parent and child. Otherwise we'd still be thinking we need to liberally apply the rod. The best advice for parenting changes over time. It's best that that change have good science behind them.
My husband used to laugh that he could see me mentally flipping through the parenting books when I was confronted with a challenge. That was likely true. I wish I could have been a perfect parent for my son. I ended up being not very spontaneous. :)
So carry on. I'm bowing out. I'm advocating acceptance of what is in a not very accepting way. I'm aware of the irony.
No offense at all intended, Morgan Miller.
Posted by Phillipa on February 26, 2011, at 20:13:57
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by Dinah on February 26, 2011, at 19:34:13
Dinah correct third was in and out of hospital cried 24 hours a day despite being held whole time. And in the pediatrician's one time I think the doc didn't believe she cried and cried as he said put her on the table let her cry. Did and she popped a hernia at two months and had to undergo surgery. Sent to Yale New Haven peds ICU for two weeks and their diagnosis hyperkinetic. Legs never stopped moving, had to be changed second she urinated, isolette had to be covered to sensitive to light. Was told not one person could care for her and the nurses failed to put any weight on her. I got her home and managed to get three lbs on her in a month a miracle in itself. My other two were not born with this disposition or whatever. Roughest time of my life. Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on February 26, 2011, at 20:26:39
In reply to Re: Ferber » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on February 26, 2011, at 20:13:57
I imagine it was. Getting enough sleep is tough enough with an average baby. You and your family must have been sleep deprived *and* on sensory overload.
But those times pass, and the better parts of parenthood can take over. :)
Posted by Phillipa on February 26, 2011, at 21:22:38
In reply to Re: Ferber » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on February 26, 2011, at 20:26:39
Yes each time she entered the hospital home to sleep. The worst was when we went up later to visit she was sleeping peacefully. They never told us they were drugging her to sleep. So went through such guilt feeling I was a horrible Mother. l8 months it was all over and life back to normal. Phillipa
Posted by morgan miller on February 27, 2011, at 0:40:05
In reply to Re: Ferber » morgan miller, posted by Dinah on February 26, 2011, at 8:07:21
Dinah, just because a mother is depressed or has some other mental illness, does this negate the fact that not giving a child what they need is neglect?
In psychology, from my experience, neglect, just like criticism, is applied to a spectrum of things. Neglect is simply not giving children the love, attention and nurture they need for proper development. It is that simple.
And if your parents have let you down, on a consistent basis that negatively impacts your development, it is neglect.
Posted by morgan miller on February 27, 2011, at 0:43:02
In reply to Re: Ferber » morgan miller, posted by floatingbridge on February 26, 2011, at 14:19:47
>So I offer that the importance of maternal bond may not be hard-wired,
as long as a child's needs are met by (emphasis here) consistent caregivers so that reliable bonds form.I don't think the maternal bond has to be the strongest for a child to be healthy. But, there is so much research and evidence out there saying that the maternal bond is the one that has the greatest impact on development, for both girls and boys.
Posted by Dinah on February 27, 2011, at 1:02:14
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by morgan miller on February 27, 2011, at 0:40:05
I don't believe I used a mother's depression as an excuse for neglect. That would be quite unlike me.
I think I said that the sort of thing you were describing could happen whether or not a mother is depressed, and is not actually all that uncommon. I don't see any particular reason to single out depressed mothers. Yes, it is a spectrum. I suppose we disagree on where on the spectrum it belongs, and possibly also on what constitutes what is necessary for proper development in general as opposed to what an individual might consider to have been necessary for their proper development.
Obviously this idea is very important to you. Is it part of your therapy? My therapist isn't an attachment therapist. I really can't even comprehend it in the same terms you do. Therefore I'm letting this conversation go.
I hope you are able to find what your mother was unable to provide for you.
Posted by morgan miller on February 27, 2011, at 1:09:07
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by Dinah on February 26, 2011, at 19:06:23
>But I'm not sure I am in favor of holding well intentioned parents doing the best they can do to blame for things like not giving eye contact or not having joy or even for leaving them crying when they needed comfort because their doctor advised that that was what good parents do. What is the point?
The emotions you express to your child have great impact on the way they feel about themselves. A child learns to love themselves through the ability of a parent to express their love for a child. I remember my therapist(phd in clinical psychology) saying that a parent is supposed to be happy and excited to see their child after being separated for a period of time. This helps create a stronger bond and tells the child how much you care about them and their presence, which then creates an environment in which they can learn that they really truly matter. Also, parent's emotional reactions also help children develop the same emotions. There's a reason why there is such intensive therapy applied to autistic children that involves animated emotions of joy, happiness, celebration, etc.
Why is it important to make a big deal out of things like this? One reason is to help more people realize that often times we are not simply born certain ways. Sure there is a genetic predispostion, but environmment is just as much a factor or more in a child being able to develop the healthiest way possible giving what they are born with. As parents we can and do make a huge difference. The more we keep saying, "Oh I was just born this way", or, "My child was just born this way", the better and better the chances that we do not make progress and continue to think that there is/was no way to prevent or influence, and medication is the only answer. Additionally, raised awareness over the impact parents have on their children would hopefully translate to more people deciding to make sure they have done what they can to be as psychologically sound as possible before having children in the first place.
Please don't take this as a criticism or like I'm being harsh. I'm not someone that plays the blame game. I love my parents to death and totally forgive them for all their mistakes and shortcomings. But, I will never say, "it's o.k. that my parents fell far short of giving me what I needed because they were well intentioned and didn't know any better". Do things like this make it easier to forgive them, yes. Does the fact that I know they really do and did love me make it easier to forgive them, yes. Still, they were responsible. My parents didn't realize it while they were doing it, but they f*ck*d up big time. That's usually the case when we are f*ck*ng up, we have no clue how much we are doing so while we are doing it.
Morgan
Posted by morgan miller on February 27, 2011, at 1:21:07
In reply to Re: Ferber » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on February 26, 2011, at 19:21:50
>I suspect that human infants were designed to be resilient.
Dinah, I'm really sorry, but I find this kind of statement made my people that are parents to be a way of shedding responsibility and staying in denial so as to protect our own feelings of guilt.
This belief is also very counterproductive to making progressing beyond what has been the prevailing conditions for a long time, and getting back to how things were and were meant to be. I'm talking about before we starting making things complicating and began the cycle of hurt. It is a cycle by the way. Hurt does not just go away and children are not so resilient as to be able to recover from hurt on their own. If you want to refer to resilience as denial, or behavior deviations, or relationship troubles, or artistic expression, etc., then I guess children going through development to adulthood are very very resilient.Scott said this same thing. I believe he said it as a way to minimize the impact that his early years may have had on the development of his mental illness.
Again, Sorry Dinah. I'm sure you are a very good mother. My previous post was not meant to insinuate that you were not a good parent. I was simply arguing why it matters that we break things down, analyze them as much as possible, and begin to place more responsibily on parents, both mother and father.
Morgan
Posted by sigismund on February 27, 2011, at 1:38:34
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by morgan miller on February 27, 2011, at 1:21:07
Some kids are easy and others not. Given enough kids there might always be enough to overtax any parent's abilities.
And this is the real world, unamenable sometimes/mostly to remedy from existing therapies.My experience has been that it is less important to satisfy a kid's needs than it is to avoid making a bad situation worse, and to refrain from impingement.
Other than that, I agree with DH Lawrence's 'Leave them alone, leave them alone, leave them alone', which meant, given C19 child rearing practices, refrain from impingement.
But give interest, attention, clear boundaries and what love you can, and forget your own needs as far as possible.
Posted by morgan miller on February 27, 2011, at 1:41:26
In reply to Re: Ferber » morgan miller, posted by Dinah on February 27, 2011, at 1:02:14
>I think I said that the sort of thing you were describing could happen whether or not a mother is depressed, and is not actually all that uncommon. I don't see any particular reason to single out depressed mothers.
Any mother or father that neglects or is unable to love their child they way they need love, has some kind of issue going on, whether is is depression or not. So yes, depression is one issue that can contribute to a parent's inability to express and offer the totality of the love they have inside to their child. Actually, one could argue that any parent with any kind of emotional issue has some kind of depression lingering inside.
>Obviously this idea is very important to you. Is it part of your therapy? My therapist isn't an attachment therapist. I really can't even comprehend it in the same terms you do. Therefore I'm letting this conversation go.
Your therapist may believe it is counterproductive to focus on the impact parents have on their children's development. They may feel that many people have a very difficult time confronting these truths so a different approach may yield results without the painful proces. I'd be curious to see what your therapist's beliefs are on parent's impact on a child's development.
My therapist believes it is necessary to realize how my parents impacted me and how what they did or did not do is still impacting me. The idea is that if you never face these realities, you can never begin to work through the anger, and other left over emotional injury, in a proper way that will allow you to free yourself of the destructive influence of these elements of your psyche. Most of us, have inner anger. If we don't find a way to get to the bottom of it and deal with it, it will almost certainly be turned against ourselves at some point or another. Or, we will continue to find ways to channel it that are ultimately counterproductive. This is just one reason why my therapist believes in getting me to realize the truth about my past and focus on it, in a productive way of course. If we realize what happened to us, we can then start to let ourselves off the hook and have more empathy and compassion for ourselves. Through this, we can begin the healing process. He definitely does not have a one sides style or philosophy, and it's not just about attachment. He just wants to help you create an environment within yourself in which you can begin to nurture yourself so as to be able to love and respect yourself more like you would have had your parents been able to do for you. The parents primary responsibility is proper love and nurture, we should all be able to agree on that.
Morgan
Posted by Dinah on February 27, 2011, at 3:02:43
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by morgan miller on February 27, 2011, at 1:41:26
> So yes, depression is one issue that can contribute to a parent's inability to express and offer the totality of the love they have inside to their child. Actually, one could argue that any parent with any kind of emotional issue has some kind of depression lingering inside.
I don't concede that depressed parents have an inability to express or offer the totality of the love they have for their child. And certainly you could argue that any parent who is less than perfect has an emotional issue that is depression. They may not do it in the way your therapist considers ideal. I can't offhand recall any parent of my acquaintance who might live up to such high standards.
And certainly you could argue that any parent who doesn't meet your standards has an emotional issue that is depression. That doesn't really fit in with my understanding of the term "depression". But depression can be conceived in different ways, and if it fits with your understanding, then you can certainly argue it.
> Your therapist may believe it is counterproductive to focus on the impact parents have on their children's development. They may feel that many people have a very difficult time confronting these truths so a different approach may yield results without the painful proces. I'd be curious to see what your therapist's beliefs are on parent's impact on a child's development.Well actually I mentioned your posts to my therapist on Friday. Believe me, he isn't soft pedaling his beliefs so as to not make me feel bad. I won't share his reaction to the issues involved, because he of course wasn't expressing them with civility guidelines in mind. But suffice it to say he isn't inclined to censure parents who do the right thing while depressed.
> Dinah, I'm really sorry, but I find this kind of statement made my people that are parents to be a way of shedding responsibility and staying in denial so as to protect our own feelings of guilt.
Morgan, I'm trying to respect your stance. I'm trying to respect your beliefs. I'm trying to understand that it is important to your healing to hold these beliefs. I ask you to try to understand that I just don't believe what you believe. Not because I want to shed responsibility or stay in denial. But because I don't believe what you believe. Please don't assume other motivations.
It's not all that important to me to believe I didn't cause harm. Or that my mother didn't cause me harm. I feel responsible for those parenting errors I have made. I hold my mother responsible for her parenting errors too. I feel guilty for any emotional hurt I've caused my son. And I know I have caused him pain, no matter how hard I try not to - just as my mother caused me pain even though she didn't wish to. I hope I'm more self aware and thus cause less pain than my mother did. But I feel no guilt for postpartum depression. *Not* *one* *iota*.
Again, I hope you find what you're looking for in therapy. And, for myself, I hope you can meet those standards you set for yourself, and that you aren't consumed with guilt should you happen to fall short.
Posted by morgan miller on February 27, 2011, at 15:40:02
In reply to Re: Ferber » morgan miller, posted by Dinah on February 27, 2011, at 3:02:43
>It's not all that important to me to believe I didn't cause harm. Or that my mother didn't cause me harm. I feel responsible for those parenting errors I have made. I hold my mother responsible for her parenting errors too. I feel guilty for any emotional hurt I've caused my son. And I know I have caused him pain, no matter how hard I try not to - just as my mother caused me pain even though she didn't wish to. I hope I'm more self aware and thus cause less pain than my mother did. But I feel no guilt for postpartum depression. *Not* *one* *iota*.
I don't think you should feel guilty. You had no control over what happened. I should not have said what I said about guilt. I do think we are all influenced to see things a certain way sometimes, and this may leave us less open minded to seeing what may be closer to reality. I'm not saying this is you, I'm just saying. I still am influenced by biases or other emotional factors. When I realize this I try to check myself and take a good look at all evidence, theories, beliefs, etc.
It is not just depressed mothers or mothers suffering from mental illness that is my primary focus. It is all parents that carry things with them that get in the way of them being able to properly love themselves and in turn properly love their children, family, friends, and life time partner.
What is it exactly that you don't believe that I believe? That our childhood does not influence later development of mental illness? There are studies that show women who were more prone to depression were more likely to fall ill to postpartum depression. And, as you know, whether there is a genetic predisposition or not, I believe, and pretty much all in the field of psychology believe, environment and nurture during development does contribute to mental health issues, in childhood and adulthood. There's simply too much history and repeated patterns and research to back this up.
So, because parenting likely plays such a large large role in our development emotionally and possibly even chemically(there is research to back this up too), it would make sense that as a society it would be in our best interest to do whatever we can to improve upon our mental health as much as possible before we take on the responsibility of parenting. Now, if we were one of the lucky few that had a very sound upbringing, we would still have to try to do some growing and preparation, but it would not be a process which involves intensive therapy, individual and group.
I would be curious to know what your therapist believes about exactly what children need to develop into sound minded individuals that feel a good healthy amount of self worth and self love.
>I don't concede that depressed parents have an inability to express or offer the totality of the love they have for their child. And certainly you could argue that any parent who is less than perfect has an emotional issue that is depression. They may not do it in the way your therapist considers ideal. I can't offhand recall any parent of my acquaintance who might live up to such high standards.
Dinah, I don't think any situation, any person, any parent, any relationship with being totally perfect or ideal. I do think that we should be always strive for at least near ideality and near perfection. We strive for eating a near perfect diet for great health so we can live as full a life as possible. We stive for ideals in government so we can live as full a life as possible. We strive for the best way to workout in order to be as healthy and as strong as possible. Why would striving for ideals and near perfecting in parenting be any different. If anything, it is parenting that is at the very top of the priority pyramid. This is why I put so much emphasis on and am so passionate about these types of issues. This is the reason for me posting studies like the one in this thread. I believe that we can prevent so much suffering from developing into what it does through enhancing societies awareness of the impact of parents on their children. Too often we take the easy way out, as children, as parents, and as a society, by just saying, "It's a matter of genetics, this is how I, he/she, they were born". Yes, it is a matter of genetics in many cases, but those genetics are influenced heavily by environment. The same goes for many illnesses that develop earlier or later in life. A genetic predisposition is just that. I'm beginning to ramble, sorry.
>Again, I hope you find what you're looking for in therapy. And, for myself, I hope you can meet those standards you set for yourself, and that you aren't consumed with guilt should you happen to fall short.Thank you, sorry for bringing up a sensitive subject. I will find what I'm looking for in therapy because I want to and will do and have done a ton of hard work and put in a ton of time to get there. I won't ever be consumed by guilt, I don't operate that way. What I will do is be passionate enough and aware enough to feel the sense of urgency to provide myself and others around me with what is necessary. And if I make a few mistakes here and there, I will make sure I don't continue them and will move forward and try to grow. I will feel bad, but I will not dwell. Afterall, we are only human.
Morgan
Posted by Phillipa on February 27, 2011, at 19:57:59
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by morgan miller on February 27, 2011, at 15:40:02
My own Mother had addison's disease and psorisis covered whole body. Given cortisone when new. Didn't know what they were doing. She had temper tantums then said I'd killed her and an example was she said she had to carry me up two flights of stairs when a baby. My Bingo moment came when carrying my Daughter up flights of stairs I said to myself carrying a child does not make a person sick or kill them. I instantly realized the profound effects those meds had on her and realized it was not her but the meds. And I kind of laughed to self and said. Not her fault. Never let it influence me again. She died when I was 17 should I blame her for dying. I carried on married had three kids and was fine. Only at age 24 had panic which I now know what it's from not upbringing an action I did to an adult not a child. So resiliance of a child me was very strong. Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on February 27, 2011, at 21:21:05
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by morgan miller on February 27, 2011, at 15:40:02
I suppose my main concern was the focus on depression in mothers as opposed to mothers, or parents, in general. But that point seems to be not in disagreement after your latest post and I am glad to see that.
I of course agree, as does my therapist, that parenting experiences play a role in our development. I don't think we ever disagreed about that, though, as I said, I think we disagree on the arrangement of the spectrum of neglect and the degree of impact on the average baby.
I have gotten the understanding that you feel you didn't receive what you needed from your mother, and that she was a depressed mother? Was she a good and nurturing mother as you got older?
Heaven knows I have plenty of experience of a mother with mental health issues. I suppose I wish I could have to go back to my infancy to find issues that result from my parents' behavior. I can't imagine how much better my life would have been if my mother had been in therapy and had more self awareness. Which may be why I place far more importance on character, intent, and self awareness than I do on the fact that a mother has depression.
You've been very gracious. I thank you for that.
Posted by Dinah on February 27, 2011, at 21:31:21
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by Phillipa on February 27, 2011, at 19:57:59
Phillipa, it isn't acceptable for a mother to say that sort of thing on a continual basis. A one time outburst should maybe be forgotten, but a pattern of behavior just isn't ok for a child. I can see not blaming her if she was unable to control herself. I suppose blame isn't the healthiest response anyway. But I wish you hadn't had that burden at such a young age.
Posted by Phillipa on February 27, 2011, at 21:45:09
In reply to Re: Ferber » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on February 27, 2011, at 21:31:21
Dinah I know but nothing can do about it as it was what it was. So when I had my own I made a vow and kept it to only praise the positives and kind of ignore negatives. Also taught them at a early age to be self-sufficient as when I married didn't know how to cook make a bed a thing. So I had my kids making their own beds, did their own laundry not all the time at an early age about 6. As didn't want them to feel so stupid which is how I felt. Today they are all successful and too self sufficient as I really don't see other than youngest who lives near here. So there is a happy medium. Phillipa
Posted by morgan miller on February 28, 2011, at 20:05:34
In reply to Re: Ferber » morgan miller, posted by Dinah on February 27, 2011, at 21:21:05
>I suppose my main concern was the focus on depression in mothers as opposed to mothers, or parents, in general. But that point seems to be not in disagreement after your latest post and I am glad to see that.
Yeah sorry if I didn't make that clear from the beginning. It is all parents, both mothers and fathers with all kinds of "issues" that was/is my focus and concern. While I am not yet a parent and may never will be, I am very passionate about parenting, as well as psychology. Before my major breakdown 3 years ago, that I am still trying to recover from, I was getting ready to apply to grad school so I could get my master's in social work. I probably mentioned this at one point, it partially explains my passion and interest.
>I have gotten the understanding that you feel you didn't receive what you needed from your mother, and that she was a depressed mother? Was she a good and nurturing mother as you got older?
She had some real problems, including an inability to consistently connect in a healthy way. Her issues were very complicated. She only just experienced major depression for the first time a few years ago. This is because, as many of us do, she was suppressing the sadness and it was manifesting in other ways. My parents never got along great and they divorced when I was eleven. At this time, I became the little adult in the family and was like my mother's little therapist. She depended on me way too much. Throughout adolescence our relationship was rocky as she was not stable and her and my father had failed to give me, my older sister(who rebelled so I was the one who took on the oldest sibling role) and my bother the right balance of love and structure. So no, she never really grew in the way she needed so that she could try to make up for what was missing in the early years, I'm sure if she could have it would have helped. That's why I think it's great that you and FB and other mother's have the courage, strength and desire to face your demons and better yourselves for both yourselves and for the people you love.
I am really sorry if I said anything inflammatory that hit a wrong chord or two. I express my beliefs in a bit of a passionate way that may partially arise out of a bit of mania.
I don't know if I've been gracious. I kind of feel like I've been selfish throughout this conversation, pressing my beliefs on you and others. Thank you, you have been the gracious one here.
Morgan
Posted by sigismund on February 28, 2011, at 21:29:38
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by morgan miller on February 28, 2011, at 20:05:34
Morgan, forgive me in advance.
> She only just experienced major depression for the first time a few years ago. This is because, as many of us do, she was suppressing the sadness and it was manifesting in other ways.This feels to me like a fixed position. Do you know this? How do you know this?
>That's why I think it's great that you and FB and other mother's have the courage, strength and desire to face your demons and better yourselves for both yourselves and for the people you love.
Oh Morgan, I don't know. This just seems like (forgive me) the contemporary western obsession. It feels like the movies.
Having 2 kids gave me a respect I had not previously had for the fact that every child is born different. This is the common parental experience. I was a child of the 70's and had been a complete blank slate man.
Posted by morgan miller on February 28, 2011, at 22:09:41
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by sigismund on February 28, 2011, at 21:29:38
>Oh Morgan, I don't know. This just seems like (forgive me) the contemporary western obsession. It feels like the movies.
Ha ha, yeah I forgive you. I hear what your saying do. I can't help it!!! : )
Posted by floatingbridge on March 1, 2011, at 4:29:19
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by morgan miller on February 28, 2011, at 20:05:34
Morgan, you know, unacknowledged MI or personality issues or just plain unacknowledged issues are difficult to work on, with, or identify....
I was an oldest, too. Though I imagined any birth order s*cked in it's own special way in our clan....
I am sorry about this. The phrase quiet desperation comes to mind.
>
> She had some real problems, including an inability to consistently connect in a healthy way. Her issues were very complicated. She only just experienced major depression for the first time a few years ago. This is because, as many of us do, she was suppressing the sadness and it was manifesting in other ways. My parents never got along great and they divorced when I was eleven. At this time, I became the little adult in the family and was like my mother's little therapist. She depended on me way too much. Throughout adolescence our relationship was rocky as she was not stable and her and my father had failed to give me, my older sister(who rebelled so I was the one who took on the oldest sibling role) and my bother the right balance of love and structure.
>We all hit wrong chords. IMO real, that is, voluntary, civility was maintained during this discussion. I gained by reading this thread. And I credit both you and Dinah for really pushing the discussion deeper through stating differing views.
My hat is off to both of you for caring enough dialogue. Others here too. I hope you feel this was a fruitful
discussion.You rock.
> I am really sorry if I said anything inflammatory that hit a wrong chord or
two. I express my beliefs in a bit of a passionate way that may partially arise
out of a bit of mania.Mania, right now?
>
> I don't know if I've been gracious. I kind of feel like I've been selfish throughout this conversation, pressing
my beliefs on you and others. Thank you, you have been the gracious one here.
>I feel this was something you needed to talk about, and apparently, a
few others needed to as well. PB had a purpose once again, despite persistent rumors of it's demise.fb
> Morgan
Posted by morgan miller on March 1, 2011, at 11:14:45
In reply to Re: Ferber » morgan miller, posted by floatingbridge on March 1, 2011, at 4:29:19
>Mania, right now?
Mini mania : ) Not even close to a destructive one. I'm aware of when I get a little on the manic side nowadays. In the past I thought is was just me being me. Zoloft certainly hyped me up at times enough to push manic behavior. I have a few friends that are not bipolar that say Zoloft definitely makes them a little TOO happy at times in a manic way. It's the nature of the drug I think.
Actually, what I think sometimes drives me to have discussions like this and express my beliefs in this way, is my anger. I think anger can manifest in anxiety, mania, and depression. That's another conversation though.
Thanks for the kind words FB. I actually think Dinah was a bit more successful at being careful not to say anything hurtful : )
Morgan
Posted by sigismund on March 5, 2011, at 21:55:57
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by morgan miller on February 28, 2011, at 22:09:41
>Ha ha, yeah I forgive you.
Well, that is very kind of you, Morgan.
I was sure you wouldn't.
It has taken me this long to get up the courage to read your reply.
With such low expectations you might say (I wouldn't though) that life would be full of pleasant surprises.
Posted by morgan miller on March 5, 2011, at 23:00:19
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by sigismund on March 5, 2011, at 21:55:57
> >Ha ha, yeah I forgive you.
>
> Well, that is very kind of you, Morgan.
>
> I was sure you wouldn't.
>
> It has taken me this long to get up the courage to read your reply.
>
> With such low expectations you might say (I wouldn't though) that life would be full of pleasant surprises.Often times text is such a difficult way to effectively communicate. I'm not sure if I can tell if you are being completely serious here. Please don't take offense to this. Were you hesitant to read my message? I'm also surprised you thought I was going to take what you said personally in a way that had to be forgiven in the first place. To make it clear, I do not feel this way because I have no care or respect for what you say, but merely because there are some things I just don't take personally. I also understood your perspective.
Posted by morgan miller on March 5, 2011, at 23:06:44
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by sigismund on March 5, 2011, at 21:55:57
Thank you for saying it was kind of me to forgive you. I should have said I didn't forgive you because I didn't have anything to forgive you for. No thanks necessary, it just is what it is. No worries mate. Now that's an american trying to be more like an aussie. I remember when I lived in Vail Co. 14 years ago everyone out there was saying "no worries". I realized it was the influence from the high population of aussies. Eventually of course it caught on and in the last 5 years it seems like everyone in america says "no worries". "No worries" does come from Australia does it not?
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