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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by gardenergirl on October 23, 2010, at 21:01:10
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled » gardenergirl, posted by europerep on October 23, 2010, at 16:16:16
> I am sorry to say that, but for me, this is a so typically American statement, that touts certain values and conceptions, but where I just do not see any link to a concrete situation and how to deal with it.
I'm not sure I see exactly what's so "typically American" about my post, nor why that matters, but no worries. I chose not to identify specifically posts that led me to say what I did, because I did not want to accuse anyone of bullying or being unkind or otherwise uncivil by the site's standards. But to be as concrete as I can without doing so, when I put myself in Lou's shoes and read recent posts about him, I felt sad and appalled. If I were Lou, I'd certainly feel put down when reading some of these posts.
I struggle with chronic depression, social anxiety, and ADHD. There are many times when my behavior has been labelled by others as "lazy", "flaky", "self-centered", "moody", and so on. While I can certainly understand how my behaviors might appear this way to others, what bothers me is that there seems to be an assumption that I am *willfully* behaving that way, when in reality, I'm struggling just to function at all. Or it's assumed that I can simply choose to act another, more acceptable way upon command. While I do not claim that I am a slave to my disorders' effects, I also do not *willfully* suffer from them.
My point is this: without being inside Lou or anyone else's head, we can't know why they do the things they do, think the things they think, feel the things they feel. And since this is a mental health site, it's not at all a stretch to infer that folks posting here are more likely to be facing some sort of mental disorder than the general population.
> but I have the impression that it's preferred to not openly, and perhaps emotionally, discuss a certain subject, but rather try to be all friends in this "haven".
That not at all the prevailing wisdom. We all are welcome to disagree and to express disagreement as long as we do so without making statements that could lead others to feel accused or put down. The world may not "work that way", but Dr. Bob states that he expects this site to work that way. We are given the choice to abide or not, and we are made aware of the potential consequences of our choices.
May I suggest that one way to express your disagreement and to perhaps counter any potential "damage: you perceive may arise from other posts, you simply post your own perspective, knowledge, or experience about whatever the topic is. If someone posts that they believe a certain medication is dangerous, and your experience is different, say so. It's up to each of us to weigh all the information we are given and to decide for ourselves what we believe.
Here's an example. I see on the current boards and recall from past experience here that there have been numerous threads where Lou has posted in his usual way, and the discussion seems to go on "around him." The thread does not come to a screeching halt. Some folks acknowledge his post or respond in some way. Some folks don't. See, I'm posting an alternative experience. Your experience is valid for you. Mine is for me. Others may agree with me or with you, with both of us, or have a different experience altogether.
I think that's what makes these forums so valuable--the diversity of experiences, personalities, issues, etc. Take what works for you that you need and leave the rest.gg
Posted by maxime on October 23, 2010, at 22:36:10
In reply to Re: To Lou, posted by violette on October 23, 2010, at 20:01:48
> ...in reading your past threads, you just sound like a completely different person now than you were a few years ago...is there something you want to talk about??
Good approach. I tried it already and I received no response. :(
Posted by violette on October 23, 2010, at 23:27:27
In reply to Re: To Lou » violette, posted by maxime on October 23, 2010, at 22:36:10
I didn't realize you were so concerned as it seems parasuicidal behavior might be viewed as much more acceptable, justified, validated, and worthy of sympathy than others' behavior here...
Glad to know I'm not alone in reaching out to others. :)
Posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 7:02:37
In reply to Lou's additional response-khemimbhall, posted by Lou Pilder on October 23, 2010, at 8:13:52
Lou, what's up man? This is like Ground Hog Day bro. I really wish you would just speak to us. I want to give you a chance but your making things pretty difficult.
Posted by johnj1 on October 24, 2010, at 13:32:58
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled » gardenergirl, posted by europerep on October 23, 2010, at 16:16:16
Thanks for the nice slight "Typcial American Post". You have some far fetched idea that this is a democracy here, it is not. You can generally agree and be support but if you disagree you will be labeled uncivil. I personally think the gloves should be off and we should be allowed to say what we feel but that is not reality here. That is why many good posters left. I believe you can say what you feel and I disagree with Lou on most points but the posting of the harm drugs can/do cause is not one of them.
Cheers
johnj
Posted by johnj1 on October 24, 2010, at 13:34:25
In reply to Re: Lou's additional response-wharekriminulz, posted by maxime on October 23, 2010, at 19:22:35
It seems like you answered your own question, the posts are always the same so now you don't have to open them just like a certain poster whom I ignore.
Posted by maxime on October 24, 2010, at 14:00:35
In reply to Re: To Lou » maxime, posted by violette on October 23, 2010, at 23:27:27
> I didn't realize you were so concerned as it seems parasuicidal behavior might be viewed as much more acceptable, justified, validated, and worthy of sympathy than others' behavior here...
>
> Glad to know I'm not alone in reaching out to others. :)I don't know what your first paragraph means. Do you mean I only post to get sympathy on this board? Because I assure you that I don't. I can carry on a discussion about something else. I just happen to go through periods when I am very suicidal and I am not doing it to get attention.
Posted by europerep on October 24, 2010, at 15:15:35
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled » europerep, posted by gardenergirl on October 23, 2010, at 21:01:10
> I'm not sure I see exactly what's so "typically American" about my post, nor why that matters, but no worries. I chose not to identify specifically posts that led me to say what I did, because I did not want to accuse anyone of bullying or being unkind or otherwise uncivil by the site's standards. But to be as concrete as I can without doing so, when I put myself in Lou's shoes and read recent posts about him, I felt sad and appalled. If I were Lou, I'd certainly feel put down when reading some of these posts.
>don't worry, I get that you were talking to me ;).. what I meant was that, what you wrote, sounded good and all, and it could have been part of a speech pronounced by someone on MLK remembrance day or something - but it didn't do anything to further the debate, unless furthering the debate would be ending the debate.
> I struggle with chronic depression, social anxiety, and ADHD. There are many times when my behavior has been labelled by others as "lazy", "flaky", "self-centered", "moody", and so on. While I can certainly understand how my behaviors might appear this way to others, what bothers me is that there seems to be an assumption that I am *willfully* behaving that way, when in reality, I'm struggling just to function at all. Or it's assumed that I can simply choose to act another, more acceptable way upon command. While I do not claim that I am a slave to my disorders' effects, I also do not *willfully* suffer from them.
>And this is maybe where I see a difference. Every participation on these boards here is voluntary, and noone would call anyone lazy for not posting during some time, etc. Many times I have been on this board, and I disagreed with a post made by someone, but I felt so bad that I just wasn't able to write a constructive post - and so I didn't post. I think we are all adults here, and we can expect each other to have a least amount of self-awareness as for how we come across.
> My point is this: without being inside Lou or anyone else's head, we can't know why they do the things they do, think the things they think, feel the things they feel. And since this is a mental health site, it's not at all a stretch to infer that folks posting here are more likely to be facing some sort of mental disorder than the general population.
>But that is not the point. Recently I have several times disagreed with bleauberry, and sometimes it even frustrated me a little that he is so convinced that as soon as regular ADs don't work, it's lyme/fungi/etc.. Does that mean that I have a problem with him? of course not. I appreciate his posts, and when there is his name behind a post, I can be quite sure to have an interesting post with interesting arguments behind it, that I care to read even if I disagree. The question is the way it is presented. I imagine the board kind of like a room where people are in, sitting on chairs, and talking about all kinds of things. Regularly people leave for a moment, while others come in sharing their point of view. Lou comes in, issues a "request" for anyone "considering being a participant" in the discussion, then leaves. Then he comes in again, either doesn't even listen to what others have said, or replies to that by issuing the next request, and the next and the next and the next.. That kind of behavior, for me, ruins the whole atmosphere of this room, and if it is an accepted behavior in this room, then I am more or less likely to permanently leave, or drop by only rarely. I do not *want* to have to ignore certain people in a discussion round because their arrogant and condescending behavior just totally goes on my nerves. His contributions are not a proper way of discussing, and *any* other forum on this internet would agree with that.
> That not at all the prevailing wisdom. We all are welcome to disagree and to express disagreement as long as we do so without making statements that could lead others to feel accused or put down. The world may not "work that way", but Dr. Bob states that he expects this site to work that way. We are given the choice to abide or not, and we are made aware of the potential consequences of our choices.
>Yes, it's just that I find it sad that the site works that way, because, even if I have not been here for long, to me, it appears to be disintegrating.
> I think that's what makes these forums so valuable--the diversity of experiences, personalities, issues, etc. Take what works for you that you need and leave the rest.
>Yes, that would probably be an effective strategy, but when I registered for this forum, I thought there would maybe be some sort of community feeling possible, the way I experience it on other forums, but this seems very difficult to me here. I think that there are minimal standards for human conversation, and if Lou doesn't even consider it necessary to indicate a reason for why he ignores *everything* that others ask of him, such as explaining why he posts in his particular way, then I find that disrespectful, and I have not come here to be treated in this fashion.
Posted by europerep on October 24, 2010, at 15:16:16
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled » europerep, posted by maxime on October 23, 2010, at 19:25:36
> I agree with you on this one.
Thanks, I didn't expect that one, but I do appreciate it. :)
Posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 16:04:22
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled » europerep, posted by johnj1 on October 24, 2010, at 13:32:58
> Thanks for the nice slight "Typcial American Post". You have some far fetched idea that this is a democracy here, it is not. You can generally agree and be support but if you disagree you will be labeled uncivil. I personally think the gloves should be off and we should be allowed to say what we feel but that is not reality here. That is why many good posters left. I believe you can say what you feel and I disagree with Lou on most points but the posting of the harm drugs can/do cause is not one of them.
>
> Cheers
>
> johnjI totally agree with the first part of this post. The last part, not so much. When all someone does is come on here and post anti-medication videos without really ever connecting to the people here, they are doing something that is counterproductive to what this board is here for. He is not just warning people that medications have the possibility of doing damage, he is saying without a doubt that all medications are bad and they ALL do more harm than good, that Is his message. He is not here saying "Hey guys just want to share my experience and knowledge of how medications can do harm. I know medications have saved lives and I know they often can do more good than bad." I have no reason to believe anything other than Lou's message being that All medications do more harm than good and the only way to heal and save ourselves is through embracing Jesus as our savior. Johnj1, do you agree here, that Lou is not just saying that medication can and do cause harm, and that his message is, "Do not take any medication they always do more harm than good"?
Posted by maxime on October 24, 2010, at 19:46:55
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled, posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 16:04:22
I agree with what you wrote in the above post.
Posted by johnj1 on October 24, 2010, at 19:52:46
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled, posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 16:04:22
Thank you for your constructive post. I guess I should say the gloves shouldn't be "totally off" as I wouldn't want someone to be cursed at and called horrible names but to tell someone they are a pain wouldn't bother me. I can't say what I really want to because I would be banned again because of the only post "happy stuff" policy by bob.
Cheers
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 20:19:05
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled, posted by johnj1 on October 24, 2010, at 19:52:46
> I guess I should say the gloves shouldn't be "totally off" as I wouldn't want someone to be cursed at and called horrible names but to tell someone they are a pain wouldn't bother me.
It wouldn't bother me overmuch either to tell someone they're a pain. After all, I'd be perfectly justified right? Just telling the truth?
People generally don't enjoy the experience of being called a pain nearly as much. And have a different view of whether it's justified.
In my opinion, it's not difficult to disagree on Babble and stay civil. It doesn't take a huge vocabulary or a facility with words. My son's preschool class was pretty good with it.
It just takes a decision that no matter how others behave, you will choose to respond civilly. It doesn't mean not disagreeing. It doesn't mean being kissyface nice. It just means that you make a choice.
You don't have to make that choice. There are other choices that can be made. But (at least when Dr. Bob is around) those choices have a cost.
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 20:23:05
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled » gardenergirl, posted by europerep on October 23, 2010, at 16:16:16
> but for me, this is a so typically American statement, that touts certain values and conceptions,
Why thank you. GG's statement is one that I am proud to hear considered typically American.
Posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 20:24:41
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled, posted by johnj1 on October 24, 2010, at 19:52:46
> Thank you for your constructive post. I guess I should say the gloves shouldn't be "totally off" as I wouldn't want someone to be cursed at and called horrible names but to tell someone they are a pain wouldn't bother me. I can't say what I really want to because I would be banned again because of the only post "happy stuff" policy by bob.
>
> CheersHa ha, yeah I know what you mean. I do understand it though as people here are usually in a much more vulnerable state than people on other forums. There should be a culture of politeness and compassion, just not a culture of not being able to constructively and "politely" express frustration or criticism.
Cheers brotha,
Morgan
Posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 20:28:23
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled, posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 20:19:05
> > I guess I should say the gloves shouldn't be "totally off" as I wouldn't want someone to be cursed at and called horrible names but to tell someone they are a pain wouldn't bother me.
>
> It wouldn't bother me overmuch either to tell someone they're a pain. After all, I'd be perfectly justified right? Just telling the truth?
>
> People generally don't enjoy the experience of being called a pain nearly as much. And have a different view of whether it's justified.
>
> In my opinion, it's not difficult to disagree on Babble and stay civil. It doesn't take a huge vocabulary or a facility with words. My son's preschool class was pretty good with it.
>
> It just takes a decision that no matter how others behave, you will choose to respond civilly. It doesn't mean not disagreeing. It doesn't mean being kissyface nice. It just means that you make a choice.
>
> You don't have to make that choice. There are other choices that can be made. But (at least when Dr. Bob is around) those choices have a cost.I don't know Dinah, I've seen a few circumstances where it appeared the person was being civil, but because that criticized or expressed frustration, they were warned or blocked. A while back this happened to Bleauberry a while back and me and others were a bit stumped as to why he was blocked.
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 20:48:28
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled, posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 20:28:23
It could be that Dr. Bob doesn't consider it civil to criticize others. Expressing frustration should be fine. In fact, Dr. Bob asks that people express themselves in terms of their own feelings, without negatively characterizing (or criticizing) the other person.
There are some things that can't be said here. If you want to say something unpleasant *about* another poster, that probably can't be done in the civility guidelines. But I suppose I don't see why conversation is brought to a stop if one can't say something unpleasant about another person. Can't the discussion remain on the topic without getting into personalities?
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 20:52:56
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled, posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 20:28:23
However, I will admit that I am on occasion perplexed by civility rulings. Dr. Bob on occasion "reads" things differently than I do, and in a way I find surprising. I suppose that's only natural.
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 21:15:19
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled, posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 20:28:23
An awful lot of energy is being poured into these situations, and in my experience, that isn't overly helpful.
Wouldn't it be more conducive to overall board discussions to just be polite?
For example, if someone asks that discussants in your thread read or view something, you can simply request that such suggestions not be made on your thread because it isn't in keeping with your wishes that everyone feel free to respond whether or not they have read anything. Dr. Bob has honored those types of requests in the past. Generalizations can be reported. Things can be handled in such a way that the energy associated with them diminishes rather than increases.
Then the discussion can get immediately back on target without lengthy diversions.
(Perhaps you can tell I've been watching a lot of dog training videos lately? But I think the same concepts apply to human interactions.)
Posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 21:46:30
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled » morgan miller, posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 20:52:56
I understand. I have been guilty of letting anger and frustration get the best of me and not censoring myself when I made a few personality judgments. Oddly enough, some of those times no one said anything about what I posted.
I do think we should try to avoid anything that could be construed as a personal attack. It's hard being we are only human, and suffering humans at that.
Morgan
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 22:02:01
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled » Dinah, posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 21:46:30
I agree. Very few people always live up to their best intentions. I know I surely don't.
I prefer to think of it, instead of being only human, as being *human*. We may sometimes, or even frequently, miss the mark. But since we're human we don't have to resign ourselves to acting purely on instinct.
Posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 22:03:59
In reply to On a more practical note..., posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 21:15:19
>Wouldn't it be more conducive to overall board discussions to just be polite?
Absolutely. I think it's possible to say just about anything in a polite manner. If we were to all do this, there would still be things that Dr. Bob would have a problem with. I think this is why some people have left this board out of frustration over not being able to full express themselves, whether it was done politely or not.
Posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 22:11:10
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled » morgan miller, posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 22:02:01
> I agree. Very few people always live up to their best intentions. I know I surely don't.
>
> I prefer to think of it, instead of being only human, as being *human*. We may sometimes, or even frequently, miss the mark. But since we're human we don't have to resign ourselves to acting purely on instinct.So what do you think about someone telling another that they have made them angry and explaining why in a polite manner?
Anyway, I know I can do better and I'm sure others here know they could as well. In this forum and in other situations/relationships, better communication is always going to improve the quality and outcome of the situation.
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 22:15:26
In reply to Re: On a more practical note..., posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 22:03:59
> If we were to all do this, there would still be things that Dr. Bob would have a problem with. I think this is why some people have left this board out of frustration over not being able to full express themselves, whether it was done politely or not.
Again, I would think it would depend on what you wish to express fully. If one feels compelled to express oneself fully on the topic of the shortcomings of others, then yes, I suppose it may be impossible to do. But I would also say it may be impossible to say some things politely.
No matter how cordially and evenly you say "You are an *ss" or "Nobody can stand you", I don't think it could be considered polite.
And while it may not be "polite" to say "I am so angry at reading that" (in an angry tone) it would be perfectly civil. On the other hand, it wouldn't be all that useful in draining energy from a situation...
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 22:24:04
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled, posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 22:11:10
> So what do you think about someone telling another that they have made them angry and explaining why in a polite manner?
Great minds think alike. :)
I pointed out in a previous post that it is perfectly civil under Dr. Bob's guidelines to say that you are very angry. I've done it myself on many occasions. I try to own the anger as mine, because really no one else can *make* me angry. I think the problem comes in the explaining why. It's possible to do that without being uncivil. It helps to step back and look at exactly what you're explaining, because sometimes incivility can seem, in our own minds, to be nothing but a simple recitation of the facts and nothing anyone should take offense over. While in the mind of the other, it might be more judgment than fact.
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