![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ryan_s on July 5, 2000, at 16:11:55
hello to all of you courageous souls,
first of all i would like to tell all of the babblers out there what i heard the other night on tv. there was a special on depression. one quote from a doctor who specializes in depression stuck to my ribs. he said, "some people look at a depressed patient as being mentally weak. the truth is that depressants are some of the strongest minded people in the world, because they deal with the pain of a uncontrollable disease every single day of their lives."
wow.
it is nice to start a discussion with some optimism.
my name is ryan. i have been a babbler for one year. i suffer from some form of depression. that is my problem i do not know what exactly is wrong with me. one thing i do know. i am not happy.
through two years of therapy i have been put on prozac, paxil, celexa, buspar, neurontin, remeron, wellbutrin, zyprexa, seroquel, and adderall. the ssris only made my depression worse. serotinin syndrome (the loss of feelings or blunting of emotions) made me feel like a was going crazy. the neurontin made me feel like i was drunk and did nothing for my self esteem, which is my biggest problem. remeron made sleep for hours on end and gave me a sense that i was detached from the world. seroquel and zyprexa did help with my anxiety, but did nothing for my general sense of well being. all of the meds that i have mentioned i tried for at least one month. that brings me to the present. adderall. when i first took adderall it made me feel normal. i no longer needed to fidget and act on my impulsive nature. however, once again the adderall is not doing much for my self esteem.
if someone can relate to me i am going to try to tell you what it feels like to be me. i get up in the morning and have thoughts that come from the depression. "why, ryan, can do you not want to hang out with people; why are you so unsure of yourself; my friends probably are scared of me and do not want to talk to me because they think that i am weird; why are you not proud of yourself; why are you not excited to be alive; ext. ext. to keep a long story short these negative thoughts flow through my head every single day.
the one positve that i have through my ordeal with depresion is that something has to be out there that will help me and others in my situation. the main thing that i am looking for is a medication that like adderall does not give me horrible side effects, but that helps me love myself. the ssris are out of the question. i refuse to try another. the maois are probably out of the question also, because they are known for there side effects, and they act on serotonin. from all of the research that i have done on medications there doesnt seem to be much more left in the cabinet that will help my situation. if anyone has any ideas please reply. i would greatly appreciate anything.
thank you so much,
ryan
Posted by CarolAnn on July 5, 2000, at 17:51:43
In reply to the river is running dry, posted by ryan_s on July 5, 2000, at 16:11:55
ryan,
I can definitly relate to you and I want you to know that you are not alone. You say that along with the medications, you have been in therapy for two yrs. I just have to wonder whether you might benefit from a new therapist. I have always had self-esteem issues with my depression and sometimes the negative self-talk comes back. But a really good therapist should help you learn coping mechanisms for this type of thing. Even though I still suffer depression and occasional low-self esteem, my two yrs of therapy taught me so much about myself and where the negative words come from and how to deal with them, that I no longer suffer "chronic" low-self esteem (which you seem to suffer). The thing is(and I had to learn this too), there probably isn't a 'magic' pill that will cure low self-esteem. It really is a habit of mind that needs to be broken and you need help breaking it. Medication will help with mood, but it cannot cure feelings that may be rooted in the past, and the past is where your negative self talk comes from. Well, I hope you don't mind the analyses, but it's all stuff that I spent two years learning for myself and I hate to see someone suffering, when I can pass on experience of mine that could help.
I feel like I'm holding you prisoner with words, this is so long, so I will stop for now. But, I am here almost every day(except this Thurs. Fri. & Sat. out of town), so if you aren't too offended by all this, I really do care. Meanwhile, some of the other babblers have found a very helpful visualization that I wrote to a girl named Rach. It's not too far back in the threads, not more then month or so, it's in a thread that Rach started with a post about her "heavy heart". I hope you can find my post and imagine that I wrote it for you, because it's for everyone who feels the way you do. love to you, CarolAnn
Posted by JaneS on July 5, 2000, at 18:36:55
In reply to the river is running dry, posted by ryan_s on July 5, 2000, at 16:11:55
> hello to all of you courageous souls,
>
> first of all i would like to tell all of the babblers out there what i heard the other night on tv. there was a special on depression. one quote from a doctor who specializes in depression stuck to my ribs. he said, "some people look at a depressed patient as being mentally weak. the truth is that depressants are some of the strongest minded people in the world, because they deal with the pain of a uncontrollable disease every single day of their lives."
>
> wow.
>
> it is nice to start a discussion with some optimism.
>
> my name is ryan. i have been a babbler for one year. i suffer from some form of depression. that is my problem i do not know what exactly is wrong with me. one thing i do know. i am not happy.
>
> through two years of therapy i have been put on prozac, paxil, celexa, buspar, neurontin, remeron, wellbutrin, zyprexa, seroquel, and adderall. the ssris only made my depression worse. serotinin syndrome (the loss of feelings or blunting of emotions) made me feel like a was going crazy. the neurontin made me feel like i was drunk and did nothing for my self esteem, which is my biggest problem. remeron made sleep for hours on end and gave me a sense that i was detached from the world. seroquel and zyprexa did help with my anxiety, but did nothing for my general sense of well being. all of the meds that i have mentioned i tried for at least one month. that brings me to the present. adderall. when i first took adderall it made me feel normal. i no longer needed to fidget and act on my impulsive nature. however, once again the adderall is not doing much for my self esteem.
>
> if someone can relate to me i am going to try to tell you what it feels like to be me. i get up in the morning and have thoughts that come from the depression. "why, ryan, can do you not want to hang out with people; why are you so unsure of yourself; my friends probably are scared of me and do not want to talk to me because they think that i am weird; why are you not proud of yourself; why are you not excited to be alive; ext. ext. to keep a long story short these negative thoughts flow through my head every single day.
>
> the one positve that i have through my ordeal with depresion is that something has to be out there that will help me and others in my situation. the main thing that i am looking for is a medication that like adderall does not give me horrible side effects, but that helps me love myself. the ssris are out of the question. i refuse to try another. the maois are probably out of the question also, because they are known for there side effects, and they act on serotonin. from all of the research that i have done on medications there doesnt seem to be much more left in the cabinet that will help my situation. if anyone has any ideas please reply. i would greatly appreciate anything.
>
> thank you so much,
> ryan
Ryan:Thanks for sharing about the tv thing. I think all too often we depressives get the bad rap of laziness/could do better/etc. Also I know how you are feeling for I, too, have been on the trial and error rollercoaster for almost two years now myself.
There are many others here that will be better able to suggest to you avenues to try next. I'm not that up on which AD acts on seratonin, etc., as are they, BUT that will not stop me now....
Ages ago and prior to the onslaught of SSRI's, tricyclics worked well for me. After a break, I was also successful on Nardil and remained on that for 5 years...it finally pooped out...That's the last time I can say I felt like myself. NOW comes the past two years...I have never responded to any SSRI and I have tried them all. Like you, each one didn't work and seemed to spiral me into that black pit.
Effexor and Serzone are two I did not see mentioned by you but they did not work well for me. Now I'm on Remeron and probably needing a slight adjustment and/or augmentation at this time...but I'm close.
Through this site and links combined with the incredible compassion and knowledge all of these other wonderful people bring, I feel sure that success, meaning the perfect potion for me, is just around the corner...and I know it is there for you too...so hang in there...we're here for you.
Stay in touch so we know how you're doing. And in the meantime, know I'm with you and sending good thoughts.
Jane
Posted by noa on July 5, 2000, at 18:46:03
In reply to Re: the river is running dry, posted by JaneS on July 5, 2000, at 18:36:55
You mentioned adderall. have you tried other psychostimulants?
Posted by KarenB on July 5, 2000, at 19:21:46
In reply to the river is running dry, posted by ryan_s on July 5, 2000, at 16:11:55
Ryan,Glad to see you back - haven't seen you post in a while. Or it could just be my ADD, that I simply haven't seen
your name, which has been there all along... Anyway...I wouldn't recommend the route of self medicating to just anyone but it is clear by now that your doc is not
getting anywhere with your depression symptoms. A certain level of desperation may be required to take your
health into your own hands and perhaps that is where you are. My opinion is that if you go about it intelligently
and informed, it is no less "dangerous" than subjecting your mind to the guinea pig type experimentation of the
masses of pdocs out there, who are not at all concerned with the insanity that is ours, trapped in our own minds
on a daily basis. Am I angry? Yes, I am. Maybe just angry enough to get well.Try Adrafinil. If you do a search, it is easy to find info. on this med.
Also, you may want to order some amisulpride.
Try both together. 300mg-600mg per day is the dosage with Adrafinil and you can start
with 50mg amisulpride. Once tolerance is established, work up to 50mg, 3x a day. Max dose for our symptoms
would be 300mg a day but you may only need to stay around 150mg, which is where I was with the Sulpiride.
The amisulpride, if it is like Sulpiride (and reportedly, it is almost identical), may help with your self esteem/social
anxiety. It certainly did with mine.Funny thing, those self esteem issues can be psychological in nature and respond well to therapy but not
necessarily. When I had been on the right meds (Sulpiride being one of those), my mind did not even go to those
places. When I am not, I tear myself apart on the inside. I could go into detail about that but by what you have
already written, you surely know what I mean.A PhD Psychologist wrote once about how his mother began to suffer depression and low self esteem. Once she
was placed on estrogen therapy, no more self esteem issues - she became herself again. So, yes, I do believe
that these things can be caused by any number of mental OR PHYSICAL problems. If you have any unresolved
issues, then by all means, deal with them. But, after having dealt with issues from childhood, I know my
depression can still come on like a thief in the night, regardless of my present circumstances, when I am not
under any stress and not trying to stuff, avoid or deny. It is just there.Re-learning IS important, as Carol Ann stated. My coping mechanisms, after years of being untreated, are not
the best. However, there are places I am now committed not to allow my mind to go, even at the point of
greatest weakness. Like suicide. No matter how much my mind would like to go there, I decided not long ago
that I would never do it, no matter the cost, because my children would carry the pain of it for the rest of their
lives. So, you'd have to kill me first, before I would step off that cliff (metaphorically speaking, of course. A cliff
would not be my first choice).Your history sounds like mine, only shorter. That's why I'm here.
Best to you, Ryan!
Karen
Posted by Kath on July 5, 2000, at 20:24:11
In reply to the river is running dry, posted by ryan_s on July 5, 2000, at 16:11:55
Hi Ryan - My daughter is on Mannerix (maoi). Apparently it doesn't work for alot of people, but she is one of those who it works for amazingly. She has hardly any side effects from it. A little trouble sleeping if she takes one of her 2 doses too late in the day and a bit of ecxema on her hands. I think that's about it. I don't know what her depression felt like, but she said to me, "Mom, when I'm on Mannerix I think 'If this is what normal people feel like, then I can understand how they can finish school; get jobs; feel comfortable with friends; feel good about themselves'". You might want to ask people at this site about their experiences with Mannerix?
Good luck & keep us posted as to how you're doing. Sounds like you've been through so much. I'll be thinking about you.
Kath
> hello to all of you courageous souls,
>
> first of all i would like to tell all of the babblers out there what i heard the other night on tv. there was a special on depression. one quote from a doctor who specializes in depression stuck to my ribs. he said, "some people look at a depressed patient as being mentally weak. the truth is that depressants are some of the strongest minded people in the world, because they deal with the pain of a uncontrollable disease every single day of their lives."
>
> wow.
>
> it is nice to start a discussion with some optimism.
>
> my name is ryan. i have been a babbler for one year. i suffer from some form of depression. that is my problem i do not know what exactly is wrong with me. one thing i do know. i am not happy.
>
> through two years of therapy i have been put on prozac, paxil, celexa, buspar, neurontin, remeron, wellbutrin, zyprexa, seroquel, and adderall. the ssris only made my depression worse. serotinin syndrome (the loss of feelings or blunting of emotions) made me feel like a was going crazy. the neurontin made me feel like i was drunk and did nothing for my self esteem, which is my biggest problem. remeron made sleep for hours on end and gave me a sense that i was detached from the world. seroquel and zyprexa did help with my anxiety, but did nothing for my general sense of well being. all of the meds that i have mentioned i tried for at least one month. that brings me to the present. adderall. when i first took adderall it made me feel normal. i no longer needed to fidget and act on my impulsive nature. however, once again the adderall is not doing much for my self esteem.
>
> if someone can relate to me i am going to try to tell you what it feels like to be me. i get up in the morning and have thoughts that come from the depression. "why, ryan, can do you not want to hang out with people; why are you so unsure of yourself; my friends probably are scared of me and do not want to talk to me because they think that i am weird; why are you not proud of yourself; why are you not excited to be alive; ext. ext. to keep a long story short these negative thoughts flow through my head every single day.
>
> the one positve that i have through my ordeal with depresion is that something has to be out there that will help me and others in my situation. the main thing that i am looking for is a medication that like adderall does not give me horrible side effects, but that helps me love myself. the ssris are out of the question. i refuse to try another. the maois are probably out of the question also, because they are known for there side effects, and they act on serotonin. from all of the research that i have done on medications there doesnt seem to be much more left in the cabinet that will help my situation. if anyone has any ideas please reply. i would greatly appreciate anything.
>
> thank you so much,
> ryan
Posted by Kath on July 5, 2000, at 20:27:22
In reply to Re: don't drown in all these words... » ryan_s, posted by CarolAnn on July 5, 2000, at 17:51:43
Ryan - CarolAnn's visualization is posted June 18th. I think it's beautiful. Hope it helps you.
Kath
> ryan,
> I can definitly relate to you and I want you to know that you are not alone. You say that along with the medications, you have been in therapy for two yrs. I just have to wonder whether you might benefit from a new therapist. I have always had self-esteem issues with my depression and sometimes the negative self-talk comes back. But a really good therapist should help you learn coping mechanisms for this type of thing. Even though I still suffer depression and occasional low-self esteem, my two yrs of therapy taught me so much about myself and where the negative words come from and how to deal with them, that I no longer suffer "chronic" low-self esteem (which you seem to suffer). The thing is(and I had to learn this too), there probably isn't a 'magic' pill that will cure low self-esteem. It really is a habit of mind that needs to be broken and you need help breaking it. Medication will help with mood, but it cannot cure feelings that may be rooted in the past, and the past is where your negative self talk comes from. Well, I hope you don't mind the analyses, but it's all stuff that I spent two years learning for myself and I hate to see someone suffering, when I can pass on experience of mine that could help.
> I feel like I'm holding you prisoner with words, this is so long, so I will stop for now. But, I am here almost every day(except this Thurs. Fri. & Sat. out of town), so if you aren't too offended by all this, I really do care. Meanwhile, some of the other babblers have found a very helpful visualization that I wrote to a girl named Rach. It's not too far back in the threads, not more then month or so, it's in a thread that Rach started with a post about her "heavy heart". I hope you can find my post and imagine that I wrote it for you, because it's for everyone who feels the way you do. love to you, CarolAnn
Posted by Cindy W on July 6, 2000, at 0:20:11
In reply to the river is running dry, posted by ryan_s on July 5, 2000, at 16:11:55
> hello to all of you courageous souls,
>
> first of all i would like to tell all of the babblers out there what i heard the other night on tv. there was a special on depression. one quote from a doctor who specializes in depression stuck to my ribs. he said, "some people look at a depressed patient as being mentally weak. the truth is that depressants are some of the strongest minded people in the world, because they deal with the pain of a uncontrollable disease every single day of their lives."
>
> wow.
>
> it is nice to start a discussion with some optimism.
>
> my name is ryan. i have been a babbler for one year. i suffer from some form of depression. that is my problem i do not know what exactly is wrong with me. one thing i do know. i am not happy.
>
> through two years of therapy i have been put on prozac, paxil, celexa, buspar, neurontin, remeron, wellbutrin, zyprexa, seroquel, and adderall. the ssris only made my depression worse. serotinin syndrome (the loss of feelings or blunting of emotions) made me feel like a was going crazy. the neurontin made me feel like i was drunk and did nothing for my self esteem, which is my biggest problem. remeron made sleep for hours on end and gave me a sense that i was detached from the world. seroquel and zyprexa did help with my anxiety, but did nothing for my general sense of well being. all of the meds that i have mentioned i tried for at least one month. that brings me to the present. adderall. when i first took adderall it made me feel normal. i no longer needed to fidget and act on my impulsive nature. however, once again the adderall is not doing much for my self esteem.
>
> if someone can relate to me i am going to try to tell you what it feels like to be me. i get up in the morning and have thoughts that come from the depression. "why, ryan, can do you not want to hang out with people; why are you so unsure of yourself; my friends probably are scared of me and do not want to talk to me because they think that i am weird; why are you not proud of yourself; why are you not excited to be alive; ext. ext. to keep a long story short these negative thoughts flow through my head every single day.
>
> the one positve that i have through my ordeal with depresion is that something has to be out there that will help me and others in my situation. the main thing that i am looking for is a medication that like adderall does not give me horrible side effects, but that helps me love myself. the ssris are out of the question. i refuse to try another. the maois are probably out of the question also, because they are known for there side effects, and they act on serotonin. from all of the research that i have done on medications there doesnt seem to be much more left in the cabinet that will help my situation. if anyone has any ideas please reply. i would greatly appreciate anything.
>
> thank you so much,
> ryanRyan, i've been depressed and had ocd since childhood (48, nearly 49 years, i'd say). i've tried different therapies and meds (incl. imipramine, prozac, luvox, serzone, zoloft). Cognitive behavior therapy and supportive therapy with a really great pdoc, along with Effexor-XR and serzone (two meds you apparently haven't tried) have really been helping me. Hang in there! people here really care, and the help you need may be just around the corner.
Posted by CarolAnn on July 6, 2000, at 8:51:03
In reply to Re: River dry? Check for springs » ryan_s, posted by KarenB on July 5, 2000, at 19:21:46
You said what I meant to say, better then I could say it!!!
I do also believe that self-esteem can be helped with medication. I think I really meant to just have ryan consider whether his therapist has been addressing the problems of whether past "issues" might be causing some of the negativity.
I know that my "negative" voices come from my childhood perspective that I was unloved and unwanted. When I start to hear self-critical talk, it's always things that my mother use to say to me. After two years of therapy, and a lot of reading and thinking, I can perceive my mother's criticism differently. She really believes she is helping me. For example: in my early twenties(when my social life was non-existant), if I mentioned anything about wanting a family, she would say things like, "oh you don't want to be stuck home with kids, you never get to go anywhere, a family just takes away your freedom...ect". I always thought she was attacking me personally as her child, as if the things she was saying were actually her feelings about having me. What I realize now, is that she was trying to PROTECT me from disappointment, because from what she could see, it didn't seem possible that I would even meet a man, let alone marry and have a family.
Of course, it's one thing to know something 'rationally' and another to be stuck with feelings that are 'irrational'. I do still battle inner negativity and am not always successful at "reframing" my perceptions. So, you're right, this is where medication comes in. When it helps, it stops me from "going there" mentally. Medication also stops my mind from going in circles, like, "you're awful, no I'm not, yes you are...ect". Am I the only one whose mind does that? Is this post a good example of ADD at work or what? I'm so hyper-focused on the point I'm trying to make, but unable to focus on the best way to make my point! Yadda, yadda, yadda! Well, you're my friend, so I know you'll at least attempt to figure it all about! Oh geez, I just realized this thread is supposed to be in support of ryan...ryan, I'm sorry I just can't 'delete', it took me almost an hour to write this. with love, from CarolAnn
Posted by KarenB on July 6, 2000, at 11:47:47
In reply to Re: you did it again, Karen!, posted by CarolAnn on July 6, 2000, at 8:51:03
>> I do also believe that self-esteem can be helped with medication. I think I really meant to just have ryan consider whether his therapist has been addressing the problems of whether past "issues" might be causing some of the negativity.
That's always a good idea. I am so glad - FOR ME - that I didn't take the route of meds only, first. If I looked to someone like the doc I have now, to help me, I'd still be in deep kimchee. I tried cognitive therapy with a few different therapists and did work through some issues. I think it is particularly important if you had parents who were not behaving. My father was (died in '95) an alcoholic and from what I know now, was almost certainly suffering untreated ADD all his life. He was anti-doctor in the extreme, and as a result probably died before he needed to, of cancer.
The part I think is important is this: Conclusions I made as a child needed to be re-evaluated with my more mature, adult mind. Certain people in my family were very ill, mentally, and I took what they said about and to me as facts, when they were not the truth at all. I am sure I still don't see myself as I am and have been held back by that in many areas. For instance, I don't expect people to like me. I am surprised when they do and don't know quite how to act. That's a tough one because self loathing is so ingrained. So, I talk to myself, positively (but silently) a lot. Like, when part of me starts saying negative things about or to me, I tell that particular voice to shut up. I am a Christian, so I also rebuke the thought and ask God to take it from me. It's very hard because when I am on the downward spiral, the thoughts are like a broken record and often will not quit. BTW, my doc just started me on a very low dose of Zyprexa at night and I will be interested to see if it helps with the
ruminating thoughts. They are responsible for much of the self esteem issue. You can't say to yourself, over and over that you suck and not have some profoundly negative results in your mood. The good part is, there is a very big part of me now that knows what the truth really is and those thoughts are powerful weapons against the lies. Scripture reading also helps with that: More truth than lies being entertained and accepted in my conscious mind and I am a happier, healthier person.Regarding rambling:
>>Well, you're my friend, so I know you'll at least attempt to figure it all about!Yes, I am and yes, I did. Rambling doesn't bother me as long as it is coherant and of value, which I do consider yours to be. Grandiose diatribes by those wanting to argue about things they like to write and talk about but seldom DO anything about, bore me to distraction. It always reminds me of that scripture in Job, when God finally speaks. He says, "Who is this who gives counsel without knowledge?" Know what I mean? Answers and thoughts that are from the heart are never boring to me, regardless of length. Hey, I can hyperfocus.
BTW, I think your Mom was working a double shift and coming to my house! I think it's harder with parents because I know I EXPECT them somehow to understand certain things, like how to communicate and what things hurt me. Sometimes, though, they just DON'T. My Mom was raised by a very strict, rigid, New England family. Her mother didn't want her to become conceited, so made it a point never to compliment her. She passed that nonsense on to me. I would get dressed up to go out in my teens and early twenties and she would say I looked "fine." Nothing more. She had no idea how desperately I needed to hear some praise or admiration from SOMEONE! As a result, I am heavy on the praise with my children. I correct them when they are wrong but when they do something right, I am all over it. I also have a "game" I play with my sons - I say, "You know why I love you?" And they say, "Because I'm Stuart (or Jackson)." I want them to know that love is not dependant on performance or anything else, but just because they "are."
Sorry this is so long but I seldom get into the "past" issue on this board. We are friends here, though and this is who I am...
Karen
Posted by harry b. on July 6, 2000, at 11:57:36
In reply to the river is running dry, posted by ryan_s on July 5, 2000, at 16:11:55
Hi Ryan-
Interesting handle, ryan_s. Some meaning to it
or just whimsy?The doc quote is good, I'll save that one, thanks,
except most times we (I) am only capable of dealing
with it in negative, self-destructive ways.I and many others here are searching for the magic
med that will enable us to _live_ and be _happy_,
or just get us thru another day.I would gladly accept being content & comfortable
with myself, which is a self-esteem issue and believ
you me, you are not alone. I can relate to your
feelings. Therapy is claimed to be good for unearthing
or coming to terms with issues that are sources of
our self-esteem. But I don't think it's a stand-alone
cure. Personally, I know my 'issues' and I 'know'
how I should view them, deal with them, balance them.
But being a depressive, the leap from knowing to being able to do,
is pretty much an impossibility. Things are just too
cloudy up here.Med wise, if you don't want to go the MAOI route
(which I'm thinking of doing), then maybe the over
seas meds others have suggested might be your next
step.Take care
hb
Posted by Kath on July 7, 2000, at 11:00:41
In reply to the river is running dry, posted by ryan_s on July 5, 2000, at 16:11:55
Hi Ryan - I'm thinking about you I hope you're okay. There are lots of people here who care about you & would love to know how you are.
:-) Kath
This is the end of the thread.
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