![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 41. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Shelley in Seattle on January 18, 1999, at 16:00:26
Well, I have been on Celexa for 3 weeks now. I am taking 60 mg/ day (the max is 80mg).
I don't have very many side effects -- just dry mouth and (very) delayed orgasm. But the bigger problem is that I feel I am experiencing severe mood swings. Even more than before I started Celexa. One day, I am nearly suicidal and the next I am totally laid back. This was not due to any hormonal goings-on, and my TSH was normal. And, I can't stop fidgeting.
Anyone else have the increased mood swings w/ Celexa? I know that a fair trial can take as long as 6 weeks, but with it seeming to exacerbate my mood swings, it's hard to wait.My doc has given me an Rx for BuSpar (to maybe help the fidgeting), which I won't get filled until I max out on Celexa so I know which side effects come from which drug!
Posted by David K. on January 18, 1999, at 17:30:20
In reply to Celexa and increased mood swings, posted by Shelley in Seattle on January 18, 1999, at 16:00:26
I've been wondering if I've been having mood swings, too ... Let me rephrase that: I know I'm having mood swings, I just don't know if it's Celexa induced or not. But I'll feel AWFUL and then suddenly everything will lift and I'll feel like everything's FINE, then I'll feel AWFUL again. Last week I had a morning where I kept swinging back and forth. But it's gotten so that I don't even know if I was like this before the Celexa (it's only been a few weeks) or how I was on the string of stuff that came before it (over the past year and a half/two years.)
I CERTAINLY fidget, from the Celexa, though, along with having insomnia. I'll find myself lying in bed drumming my fingers on my chest and wiggling my feet. (It also makes me really chatty, and the hypochondriac in me thought it might be making me hypomanic [even though I'm not BP!]) But supposedly hypomania feels REALLY GOOD, so it CAN'T BE!)
I got some sleeping pills, though, to help with the insomnia (of course... duh.) So I'm looking forward to some Zzzzzzzzzzzs tonight.
Posted by Shelley in Seattle on January 18, 1999, at 18:04:58
In reply to Re: Celexa and increased mood swings, posted by David K. on January 18, 1999, at 17:30:20
Well, of the relatively few times in my life that I have been hypomanic, not each time felt good. Sometimes it just feels like my whole body is itching to be released from my skin -- like a big ball of energy with no place to go. Granted, sometimes I can harness it & clean my entire apartment or paint & draw all night, but that happens far less.
I too have insomnia, but I have been a life-long insomniac and I don't think it's the Celexa. I take it in the morning, though -- just in case. I can't tolerate sleeping pills (though I wish I could), but I have been trying Valerian. I don't think it works and it has a very strong, unpleasant odor! :-( I have even tried Trazodone at night, but it gives me a 'fuzzy head' that I just can't deal with.I hope YOU catch a good night's sleep tonight! :-)
Posted by David K. on January 18, 1999, at 18:31:49
In reply to Reply to David K: Celexa, mood swings & hypomania, posted by Shelley in Seattle on January 18, 1999, at 18:04:58
The sleeping pills I've got are called Ambien, and supposedly I'll wake up "clear as a bell." (Ding!) So I'll let you know. I asked about Trazadone (I saw it mentioned here, maybe by you) but my Dr. said that the hangover is pretty common. She mentioned something else that knocks you on your butt for the first two days, then is oaky, but I don't want to have to take it all the time.
I've had periods of insomnia before, and it drives me nuts ... (more nuts.) At first I liked the Celexa-induced insomnia, since all the other stuff I've been on has made me so SLEEEEEEPY, but now I'm just WORN OUT. And it looks like I have coffee stains under my eyes. Yuk.
Well, I hope YOU get some sleep tonight, too...
Posted by Shirley Near Seattle on January 18, 1999, at 22:53:29
In reply to Re: Celexa and increased mood swings, posted by David K. on January 18, 1999, at 17:30:20
> I've been wondering if I've been having mood swings, too ... Let me rephrase that: I know I'm having mood swings, I just don't know if it's Celexa induced or not. But I'll feel AWFUL and then suddenly everything will lift and I'll feel like everything's FINE, then I'll feel AWFUL again.
I feel the same way, only on Effexor. Rarely do I have a day that is consistently good (or bad). I am sometimes depressed on my way to work in the am, then as I become more alert, feel better. Come home, kids, husband, phone, and don't just feel down, but wishing (would pray except that I don't want anything to with any God who allows this sh*t to be happening)I would die. Often times I think I'd skip home in joy if I found out I had 3 mos to live! I'm "dead" serious about that, too, sorry.
A young woman several days ago was asking about what "normal" meant as far as one's response to the world. Certainly everyone has ups and downs--but I've been told it is definately NOT normal to wish I was no longer here (it feels perfectly natural to me). You'd never know it by looking at me, though. I don't wig out in public. I have a job that I actually enjoy, doing something I believe in, and am considering a new position with more responsibility. I've not been hospitalized for mental illness. I have few explanations for the rapid mood swings, though. I don't have highs, so this isn't some kind of bi- polar thing. Sometimes I think there's really nothing wrong, that I'm just being selfish, or weak. My therapist must have thought I was healthy, since she told me I could just come back on an "as needed" basis. Mostly I'm thoroughly confused about what to do. About anything and everything (I find it very difficult to make decisions)
> I CERTAINLY fidget, from the Celexa, though, along with having insomnia. I'll find myself lying in bed drumming my fingers on my chest and wiggling my feet.
I experienced this on Zoloft, but I think it dissipated after several weeks. I'd be driving down the street, clutching the edge of the seat with all of my strenth. I was aware I was doing it, I just couldn't stop. It's a lot like an engine with a revved-up idle. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets better for you though, given more time (5 to 6 weeks?)
Now I DO like Trazodone (I'm a believer in that, at least!). I've decided a couple of times that I should stop taking it because I've been sleeping well for several months, but I always feel horrible the next day. I have no source of professional advice these days ("well I don't know.....I'm not a psychiatrist.....here's a prescription, come back in six weeks...") So, I guess I'll just keep on taking it. As far as feeling foggy the next morning, well, I always feel foggy in the am. OTC sleeping pills are worse--I don't feel right with those until about 15 hours later. I wish I'd stay on topic...
Shirley
Posted by David K. on January 19, 1999, at 5:10:50
In reply to Re: Celexa and increased mood swings, posted by Shirley Near Seattle on January 18, 1999, at 22:53:29
Good morning!
Well, I think I slept through the night (I don't remember waking up, especially not the 37 times I usually do.) I took the Ambien at, oh, 8:30 maybe (I couldn't wait) and woke up on cue at 5:25a,, five minutes before the alarm went off. So at least I got some sleep & I don't feel as ornery as I have over the past few days (although I'm sure the Plant Manager at work will change that. He's a bad, bad man. And no help to ANYONE'S mental health.)
I often wonder about that "What is normal?" thing ... I don't want to get into it right now, but sometimes it seems that wanting to die SHOULD be acceptable. (Of course, that would only count for when I want to die, not anyone else! Then I'd try to talk them out of it!)
I see my Dr. every week, and it helps even when I'm not feeling so bad. I'm a good faker, and most people don't suspect that I've got any problems and even DON'T BELIEVE ME when I try to tell them. (One guy thought it was just my wacky sense of humor when I told him I was seeing a pschiatrist. I figured that if it was soooooo unbelieveable to him, I'd let him think I was kidding. But he told me, "Depression? You're not depressed.") And when I'm on the phone at work people say, "Oh, you're always so chipper!" I tell 'em it's a big lie, and they laugh and laugh... "Oh, Dave, you're so funny!"
Hmm. At least I'm amusing. Now dance, Monkey Boy!
(Oh yeah ... I often wish I'd find out I had '3 months' (that's too long!) to live. I think I like that idea because it's a lot less work than having to do something about it myself. Maybe I can hire a contract killer to rub me out?)
Posted by Shirley on January 19, 1999, at 9:54:05
In reply to Re: Celexa and increased mood swings, posted by David K. on January 19, 1999, at 5:10:50
Good to hear that you finally got some sleep! Hopefully the ambien will allow you to sleep well every night? I don't know anything about it, as I am, like I said before, a true believer in Trazodone. But AMBIEN--it has such a melodious (sp?) ring to it.
Contract killing? I never even thought of that! My husband gets pretty angry with me when I discuss this particular characteristic of my chronically bad mood. Last night he asked me how I felt on a scale of 1 to 10, and I told him "3", with "1" being dead. He pointed out that "0" is dead.
You mentioned that you see your Dr. once a week, which sounds like it helps. Does that person ask you regularly about the suicide ideation? Mine never did, so I figured they didn't find me compelling enough to keep around as clients. I do think that most people, even psych specialists, just can't believe that anyone would entertain these ideas. Especially for those of us who are good "fakers", as you described it. If a person isn't being histrionic, crying, and being dramatic, then they must be OK?? Sometimes you need to know the right questions to ask, instead of focusing on the possible solutions. Or lunch, or the family vacation to the Bahamas.....
This line of thinking is pretty morbid, and I hope that there aren't a lot of teens lurking around here. "Don't try this at home, folks"....Take care,
Shirley
Posted by LT on January 19, 1999, at 12:29:02
In reply to Re: Celexa and increased mood swings, posted by David K. on January 19, 1999, at 5:10:50
> Good morning!
> Well, I think I slept through the night (I don't remember waking up, especially not the 37 times I usually do.) I took the Ambien at, oh, 8:30 maybe (I couldn't wait) and woke up on cue at 5:25a,, five minutes before the alarm went off. So at least I got some sleep & I don't feel as ornery as I have over the past few days (although I'm sure the Plant Manager at work will change that. He's a bad, bad man. And no help to ANYONE'S mental health.)
> I often wonder about that "What is normal?" thing ... I don't want to get into it right now, but sometimes it seems that wanting to die SHOULD be acceptable. (Of course, that would only count for when I want to die, not anyone else! Then I'd try to talk them out of it!)
> I see my Dr. every week, and it helps even when I'm not feeling so bad. I'm a good faker, and most people don't suspect that I've got any problems and even DON'T BELIEVE ME when I try to tell them. (One guy thought it was just my wacky sense of humor when I told him I was seeing a pschiatrist. I figured that if it was soooooo unbelieveable to him, I'd let him think I was kidding. But he told me, "Depression? You're not depressed.") And when I'm on the phone at work people say, "Oh, you're always so chipper!" I tell 'em it's a big lie, and they laugh and laugh... "Oh, Dave, you're so funny!"
> Hmm. At least I'm amusing. Now dance, Monkey Boy!
> (Oh yeah ... I often wish I'd find out I had '3 months' (that's too long!) to live. I think I like that idea because it's a lot less work than having to do something about it myself. Maybe I can hire a contract killer to rub me out?)
Hi David, I thought I was president of the faker's club! My phychiatrist even commented that I didn't look depressed. I go to work every day, (almost) do my job, which is counseling enemployed people, and be thinking at the same time about the possibility of not feeling like this anylonger, whether it be a hit man or whatever! Celexa isn't working along with every other damn drug imaginable. Glad to know someone else goes through life like this. Going to shrink to day to discuss ECT, or hit man. (feeble attempt at humor!)
Posted by Shelley in Seattle on January 19, 1999, at 12:33:39
In reply to Re: Increased mood swings, posted by Shirley on January 19, 1999, at 9:54:05
Oh, how I know what you two mean! I am a great faker at work; so many people think that I am always 'so nice' .... when in reality, some days I wish I had it in me to stand on my desk & scream!
Sigh ... I have never been hospitalized & I don't 'lose it' in public, either. But you're right -- peopel seem to think if you aren't hysterical or in a melancholic coma that everything is okay, and nothing is further from the truth. I have often asked my therapist why I DON'T crack. Instead, I am doomed to be fully cognizant on the days when it is a living hell.
I too have thought of suicide and even tried in my youthful days (I'm 32), but I more often WISH I were dead just to get some peace -- I don't think I would really do it at this point in my life. But, contract killing -- now, that is something I will put in my dayplanner 'just in case'! :-)
I don't think it's morbid to joke about that stuff -- how else can we get through it? I think my warped sense of humor has literally saved my life a few times now.Anyway, back to the main topic (though I am the queen of tangents!), I think I may be starting to get a response to Celexa, finally. My mood is not so dour, and my frustration tolerance seems to have risen a bit. I guess it's a trade-off of sorts. I'll ask the Doc I work for about Ambien, after I look it up in the PDR! :-)
Have a good day, all!
Posted by David K. on January 19, 1999, at 17:18:05
In reply to Re: Increased mood swings, posted by Shelley in Seattle on January 19, 1999, at 12:33:39
I think I've managed to craft a pretty good facade, though, especially at work ... I've cultivated the "wacky guy" kind of image. Someone will ask, "How're you doing?" and I'll say, "I don't know." They'll ask, "What do you mean you don't know?" and I'll say, "Well, I'm too busy longing for the cool caress of death's hand."
And they'll LAUGH, because, God, I just MUST be kidding, right? (I'll usually say it pretty cheerfully, too.) And everyone's just used to it, I guess. They just think I'm morbid. And I'm pretty nice otherwise, so they don't hate me for being so odd. (I don't think!) And it sort of helps me to "get it out," even if no one thinks I mean it.
My doctor usually asks about the "suicidal ideation" if I don't mention it first. I was seeing a therapist before her, though ... jeez! She WOULDN'T ask me questions. Everything was, "Mmm ... mmmhmmm... how did that make you FEEL? Mmmhmmm..." which I'm sure works for some people, but NOT FOR ME. I even ASKED her to ask me about things, because otherwise I just avoid the mre uncomfortable subjects and slip out at the end of the 45 minutes having wasted both our time and my money. Her response to my request for her to ask me more questions? "I've found that THIS is the best way to do therapy."
Zip. That was that.
That was the signal that THIS WASN'T THE THERAPIST FOR ME. I mean, I took her answer as a flat out, "No." Or, like someone I work with says, "a two word phrase, and it's not 'Happy Birthday.'"
But I LOVE the doctor I'm seeing now. (So much so that I was almost worried for a little while!) We have good, interesting conversations but she doesn't let me get too far off track. She also even tells me interesting litle things about herself or other patients, which is really cool. And she actually GETS my sense of humor, which is extremely rare! (And she can "give it back" to me, too. When I kept asking her for a prescription for Morphine, she finally just said, "How about a smack in the head?" Any other "professional" would have just went on and on and on about how that wasn't, realistically, a good idea. (My Dr. started with that: "Morphine would just put you in a stupor." "That's the point!")
But she got that I was really just kidding.
Come to think of it, I think I use my sense of humor as a test sometimes. Hmm. Because the first time she "answered me back" like that, I felt really thankful and warm inside.
That's something to think about, or to bring up this Saturday (my next appointment.)
Hmm.
Posted by Shelley in Seattle on January 19, 1999, at 18:22:23
In reply to Re: Increased mood swings, posted by David K. on January 19, 1999, at 17:18:05
It's kind of funny -- I have to put up a good facade for clients (I work in a clinic, but I'm also a sort of "Jane of all trades" around there. I am a computer geek-ess as well, and since we don't have a CIS person at my clinic, I am the person who does all their tech stuff, which I do enjoy but it's hard for me to concentrate with all the interruptions). Sorry! I guess I am chatty on Celexa too! :-)
Anyway, so I have people asking me stuff all day, and I am usually gracious about it -- I am trying to work on setting boundaries, but it's very difficult to do that where I work.
My co-workers and the FEW friends I haven't alienated (I have been clinically depressed for over 5 years -- to give you an idea of how I've been until very recently, my other email address is [email protected]. It's true!) know that I have this weird preoccupation with death. My favorite place to be is in a cemetery -- not the boring, nothing-but-rows-of-flat-stones-on-the-ground ones they have here in the northwest! I am talking of those grand places in New Orleans, or the rural cemteries back East that I walked around for hours in until just a few years ago... Also, death is a major theme that presents itself in my art.As for therapy -- I am at a weird place with my therapist right now. I have been going to her 3 times a week for about 5 months now (I saw someone else for a long time before her), and I thought I was making progress and then I realized I was indeed still stuck. Then one day she just totally changed her tone towards me -- this is after she would laugh at my David Sedaris-type family stories with me. She became very cold and withdrawn, and said she didn't want to laugh at my horrible childhood stories anymore. I told her that laughing at it (now, as an adult) is probably the only reason I am not dead today. We are working on it, and it's hard for me to switch therapists. That's why I saw the last one for so long, even though the 'fit' was gone for a long time. Even now, after going 3 times a week for 5 months, she just barely has the whole story. I hate to have to tell it over and over again, so I am hoping we can get over this spot and learn something from it.
Oh, I just remembered that I have some Kava in my cupboard at home -- I think I'll try that for sleep tonight. I get so wound-up on Celexa! Not that I am complaining too hard, after having spent most of the last few months in bed anytime I wasn't working.
Well, I hope you have a good night!
Posted by David K. on January 19, 1999, at 19:40:09
In reply to Re: mood swings (well, a tangent thereof!), posted by Shelley in Seattle on January 19, 1999, at 18:22:23
That's weird... I'm the "default" computer guy where I work, too. I'm also the big cheese with our freshly installed (but totally unnecessary) NEW PHONE SYSTEM. (It does the same thing as the old one, but it more work, and requires TWO computer consoles in the phone closet, whereas the old system took care of itself. Corporate made us get it, but I still don't know why.)
ANYWAY ... in the 2 years that I've been at this place, I've been on meds only about half the time. There's a running joke among everyone how "Dave used to be a nice guy when he got here." Because I was so quiet. And probably because I had less responsibility. But ever since the meds first kicked in people have told me "I've changed." But it's really because I speak up more intead of burying my head in the sand, and it's definitely from the medication. (I've also gotten to see WAY TOO MUCH of how the corporate world works, and it makes me even more hopeless about the world.)
I've always had a fascination with death, but more ... um ... clincal and theoretical (I guess you'd say) rather than "artistic" or "aesthetic." I've had friends who were into the whole Gothic thing, with the black & red velvet and vampires and crosses and stuff, and I always wore black a lot, but it never really got into that. I don't really know why, either. But death and self destruction are definitely interests of mine ... real healthy ones, too. (Sarcasm.) I read lots of books about heroin addiction, even though I've never been on drugs (except the prescription kind, and even then, nothing good! Just antidepressants.)
But, back to mood swings, have you found any increase in "outgoing-ness" on the meds? I read somewhere that seretonin was linked to aggression, too. I wonder if that's the same thing?
And, heck, isn't EVERYONE in Seattle supposed to be depressed anyway?
Posted by David K. on January 19, 1999, at 19:46:30
In reply to Re: mood swings (well, a tangent thereof!), posted by David K. on January 19, 1999, at 19:40:09
... also (!) your comment about "setting boundaries" got me thinking. I think I try really hard NOT to set any boundaries. Then I get all pissed off when people don't respect my boundaries ... the ones I didn't set!
Hmm.
Posted by Mel on January 19, 1999, at 22:56:22
In reply to Celexa and increased mood swings, posted by Shelley in Seattle on January 18, 1999, at 16:00:26
Just got done reading this whole thread. I sure can relate. First off, yes, I have had some big mood swings since being on Celexa. The stuff makes me manic. (not to the point of hospitalization, mind you, although I could use the vacation...) I am in the process of weaning slowly off it because I am not crazy about jumping in place and not sleeping and the irritability and all that kind stuff. But on the upside, I sure do get a LOT done! Also, I too have constant thoughts of suicide, although some times are less serious than others. I thought I was the only person in the nation who was supposedly "cured" of my depression (since my therapist thinks I look "just fine", too) but still looks at every tree, telephone pole, and steep embankment as an "opportunity". I also belong to the "real good fakers" club. Nobody would EVER guess what goes through my mind on a daily basis. I too, end up being the jack-of-all-trades at work, no matter what job I hold. I always thought that came from the need to be appreciated from coming from a VERY dysfunctional family.
Posted by Shirley on January 19, 1999, at 23:18:59
In reply to Re: mood swings (well, a tangent thereof!), posted by David K. on January 19, 1999, at 19:46:30
It's been raining here in the Seattle area for over a week straight. I've read that Seattle has the highest incidence of depression (SAD?) in the U.S., but I've never been more depressed than I was last August when it was hot and sunny. We also represent the largest segment of the sunglasses market. Go figure. It's true....the cemetaries here do all have boring flat tombstones.
Re: being (calmly) suicidal. I sometimes wonder if having accepted this as the unavoidable result of who I am has created some kind of well-worn neurological pathway to my brain. Isn't this what the "kindling" concept of mental illnes is about? That these unacceptable responses to life are like hot coals that keep flaring up.
On David Sedaris: I just finished his book of short stories, "Holidays on Ice", and thought it was a pretty good literary antidepressant. My favorite stories were: "Santaland Diaries," and "Dinah, the Christmas Whore."
I agree that the "hit man" idea definately belongs in my Franklin. Roles and Goals Section? ; - )
NPBR Not Psycho-Babble Related?
Shirley
Posted by David K. on January 20, 1999, at 5:28:16
In reply to Re: Tangents, NPBR , posted by Shirley on January 19, 1999, at 23:18:59
I wonder about the suicidal feelings being "burned into my brain" as well. When the antidepressants kicked in, the first thing I noticed was that my suicidal thoughts wouldn't "stick." I used to just obsess on them and run them over and over and over (I used to imagine a groove running down the middle of my brain.) But when I couldn't "stay in the groove" suddenly, I felt profoundly uncomfortable. At night I'd even TRY to obsess about it, but it wasn't the same.
I miss it, in a strange way, but I've also developed a way of DELIBERATELY thinking about suicide... it's not MANDATORY, like it was, but I do it anyway. I imagine it's like an addiction... I heard that addicts' brains actually undergo changes ... maybe my brain did, too, from so many years of being screwed up.
Jeez ... now it's making me sad thinking that I'll be suicidal for the rest of my life...
Anyway, I certainly relate to that "everything is an opportunity" thing. A package came into work for the Lab, and was marked "tubing kit." I thought, "Hmm... I wonder if I hooked it to the exhaust pipe of my car...." Train tracks, too, are a temptation (although not REALLY... the WORST place to do it is a train station, actually, because the train is slowing down. Speed is key here! Plus, I've read stuff about how it traumatizes the drivers.)
I'd count all the times suicide crosses my mind today, but I have work to do at work, and I'd be making my list the entire day instead.
(All things considered, though, I don't think I'm anywhere NEAR actually "doing it." But I'll let you know if/when I am!)Also, in New Jersey we've got some good cemetaries. There's a small one on my way to work that dates back to the Revolutionary War ... so there's some really old, worn headstones. They're really tall and really thin, so some of them are broken. But it's pretty neat, historically and morbidly. (When I was in Cub Scouts or Boy Scouts or something we went there to do grave rubbings ... you know, get the image of the headstone onto paper. Not rub against the grave. That's a whole different psychiatric issue.)
P.S.: I betcha my Jack-of-all-trades thing has to do with a need to be all things to all people, too.
Posted by Sean on January 20, 1999, at 11:03:25
In reply to Re: mood swings (well, a tangent thereof!), posted by Shelley in Seattle on January 19, 1999, at 18:22:23
> It's kind of funny -- I have to put up a good facade for clients (I work in a clinic, but I'm also a sort of "Jane of all trades" around there. I am a computer geek-ess as well, and since we don't have a CIS person at my clinic, I am the person who does all their tech stuff, which I do enjoy but it's hard for me to concentrate with all the interruptions). Sorry! I guess I am chatty on Celexa too! :-)
> Anyway, so I have people asking me stuff all day, and I am usually gracious about it -- I am trying to work on setting boundaries, but it's very difficult to do that where I work.
> My co-workers and the FEW friends I haven't alienated (I have been clinically depressed for over 5 years -- to give you an idea of how I've been until very recently, my other email address is [email protected]. It's true!) know that I have this weird preoccupation with death. My favorite place to be is in a cemetery -- not the boring, nothing-but-rows-of-flat-stones-on-the-ground ones they have here in the northwest! I am talking of those grand places in New Orleans, or the rural cemteries back East that I walked around for hours in until just a few years ago... Also, death is a major theme that presents itself in my art.
> As for therapy -- I am at a weird place with my therapist right now. I have been going to her 3 times a week for about 5 months now (I saw someone else for a long time before her), and I thought I was making progress and then I realized I was indeed still stuck. Then one day she just totally changed her tone towards me -- this is after she would laugh at my David Sedaris-type family stories with me. She became very cold and withdrawn, and said she didn't want to laugh at my horrible childhood stories anymore. I told her that laughing at it (now, as an adult) is probably the only reason I am not dead today. We are working on it, and it's hard for me to switch therapists. That's why I saw the last one for so long, even though the 'fit' was gone for a long time. Even now, after going 3 times a week for 5 months, she just barely has the whole story. I hate to have to tell it over and over again, so I am hoping we can get over this spot and learn something from it.
> Oh, I just remembered that I have some Kava in my cupboard at home -- I think I'll try that for sleep tonight. I get so wound-up on Celexa! Not that I am complaining too hard, after having spent most of the last few months in bed anytime I wasn't working.
> Well, I hope you have a good night!Shelly, I can relate to the humor factor in terms
of dealing with the painful and crazy family stuff.
This is part of the culture of my family I guess,
because we all seem to do it. And drink...But over all the years of therapy and pain, I have
become far less tolerant of the humorous side of
it, especially when I see the same thing passed on
to children of my siblings. When I see how unfair
it is to take impressionable, dependent children
and subject them to all manner of neglect and
abuse, it really gets to me. Slowly, over time,
I began to recognize this in myself and it really
started hurt.There seems to be pretty good evidence that in
addition to whatever genetic vulnerability a
person inherits, the environment works very closely
with this and actually causes physical changes in
the phenotypic expressions of personality and
likelihood of developing affective disorders. When
you think about it this way, it brings a new
realism to the term "fucking with my head"!Anyway, viva humour... but you can laugh yourself
into the grave...
Posted by Shelley in Seattle on January 20, 1999, at 16:29:44
In reply to Re: Tangents, NPBR , posted by David K. on January 20, 1999, at 5:28:16
Hi, all! I'm getting a late start today because of a never-ending meeting (hey! I should just call a meeting at my place when I need to sleep!) ... Zzzzzzzzzzzzz......
Wow! There are some great posts here today -- where to start? :-)
I strongly identify with the notion of being nearly everything to everybody (in some capacity -- yes, David, I too program the phones here! Weird! But then, I can put all kinds of silly names on my intercom display, so that when I call someone it says "God" (or whatever) is calling! :-) stems from growing up in a severely dysfunctional family. I have been exploring that in therapy recently.
And I do the same things with boundaries -- I try to set them sometimes, but then I get upset whenever someone seems to step over my boundaries even if I had none! It's difficult for me to express it sometimes, because it feels like such a weird thing.Re: suicide ... When I realized (very recently) thatI really didn't hold suicide in my mind as an option anymore, I felt a loss -- it was, um, depressing. It had always been my last-resort way out, and then it suddenly just didn't seem available to me anymore. And I had a grand plan! Weird.
Re: Goth, etc. -- I was never into the clothes or the scene, though I tend to favor black anyway (goes with everything and it's less work sorting laundry! :-), and I would say my interest in death is usually more aesthetic but I love to read those true crime books, and I have a set of Writer's guides pertaining to death. Those are great! I read all about various poisons, etc. I think when I read 'true' crime stuff, it's more for the psychological aspects than the gory details. I was a psych major in college (my primary motivation was to try and figure out my very dysfunctional family), and so-called abnormal psychology has always fascinated me. Takes one to know one, maybe? :-)Shirley, I do think you are on to something re: SAD & Seattle. It's strange, because I take comfort in gray skies and rain and really don't like the hot weather (that's one reason that I was lured from the east coast to Seattle) and I tend to be more depressed during long, hot months. Today, it was briefly sunny after so much rain -- it was nice to see blue skies for a while. Isn't that why Starbucks is taking over the world now? I mean, I could have a tap for coffee in my kitchen with as much I tend to inbibe! I didn't even like coffee until I moved to Seattle!
Re: David Sedaris -- have you read "Naked" yet? The story about the brown towels ... I really couldn't stop laughing, and I was on the bus while I read it! *grin* I love his stories!
Well, fellow Jacks and Jills of all trades -- hope you are having a fairly decent day!
-Shelley
Posted by Shelley in Seattle on January 20, 1999, at 17:27:24
In reply to Re: mood swings (well, a tangent thereof!), posted by David K. on January 19, 1999, at 19:40:09
I forgot to include this in my other reply -- Yes, I am more outgoing on the Celexa. I would not call it aggressive, but I am at least being minutely social. In the deepest points of this 'current' depressive episode, I would get on the bus, put my walkman on and bury my nose in a book to avoid conversation. Now I try to use the walkman only if I need to (screaming children, etc), and I had the nicest chat with a guy re: writing code and other geeky computer stuff. It feels nice to be poking my head out of my shell.
Also, I have been more verbal about boundaries, etc. And I am not as deeply frustrated over things.Mostly, I just can't keep still. Got that leg-jiggling thing going! I bet I have walked 10 miles under my desk today! :-)
Posted by David K. on January 20, 1999, at 18:00:33
In reply to Re: Tangents, NPBR , posted by Shelley in Seattle on January 20, 1999, at 16:29:44
That's really strange that we're both the "phone people" at work. I got appointed a) because there's no one else and b) because I was already the "computer guy." (To be a computer genius, all you have to do is be able to find stuff in Help or in the Manual and show people how to do what you just read up on. Duh.)
I'd probably get caught if I put silly names for each phone, but just wait until the Plant Manager learns that there's an option on the Main Menu to get straight to him ... ("For the Plant Manager, dial 3" ...) Heh heh heh. He doesn't know why he's suddenly getting so many calls from solicitors.
Being the phone guy is a great passive-agressive outlet.
Anyway. I agree with Sean that humor isn't always such a good thing. I mean, I laugh all day long, especially at bad things, mostly for a lack of any other emotions. And I can see how that can get to be very destructive, especially in a family environment.
The Writer's Guide about Death sounds really interesting to me. True Crime is interesting to me, too, but I'm a little scared of it ... although I like Jim Thompson "hard boiled" crime books.
I thought I recognized that "David Sedaris" name ... a guy at work lent me a tape of that book with the "brown towel" / OCD story. It was pretty funny ... there was another one in there that I liked even more, although I don't remember it now ...
Aren't there, like, nine million Starbucks in Seattle?
Posted by Shelley in Seattle on January 20, 1999, at 19:07:10
In reply to Re: Tangents, NPBR , posted by David K. on January 20, 1999, at 18:00:33
I hope your plant manager gets a lot of interesting calls, David! I remember from one of your earlier posts that he is not a very nice fellow. Luckily, it's a pretty laid-back atmosphere where I work. They think it's funny when I do silly things like that - it breaks up the monotony of the work day.
In response to Sean and humor -- (I apologize for not addressing it earlier, I skipped over your post by mistake when the board was being slow) I know it can be detrimental at times, but it's a defense mechanism that I have developed over many years, not to mention a coping strategy. I think it does add fuel to the fire when I use humor to dispel something that needs attention. As an adult, I realize I can't change the horrific childhood I had. I can try to develop compassion for the child inside me who went through it, but I get tired of the "poor-me" feeling that comes up when I have to think about it. Laughing at the ridiculousness of some of it now helps it not to sting. That doesn't mean I trivialize it, I just have to deal with it in the way that is right for me at this time. Just for the record, the story I told my therapist that sparked all this WAS funny to me now -- I don't think I hold any pain from this particular event. I had heard David Sedaris tell a story just the night before, and so it came out in a similar type of delivery.
My "family" didn't use humor. That's something I developed on my own. I can understand your concern for your nieces and nephews; I see my sister becoming more like my mother everyday, and she's making a lot of the same mistakes with her child that my mother made with us. I know what it's like to be on the receiving end of abuse and abject neglect from a parent. I never think that's funny. Ever.
Yes, some days my smile is a mask. We all have days like that.
Posted by Mel on January 22, 1999, at 13:27:04
In reply to Re: Tangents, NPBR , posted by Shelley in Seattle on January 20, 1999, at 16:29:44
Hmmmmm. Interesting thought on the grieving for loss of suicida thoughts. Maybe that's why even when I'm feeling better, I can't seem to get rid of that "stash" of meds that are *just* enough for a lethal dose. Maybe I am afraid of going into a grieving state.
I loved your little inside on programming the phones. That would be hilarious to be "God" calling someone.
I agree with you some Sean about the humor. I know it has been used inappropriately in my family sometimes. But now that I'm in a more sane situation, it can help sometimes to laugh at myself.
BTW: Who's David Sedaris? Obviously an author. Never heard of him.
~Mel
Posted by Shelley in Seattle on January 22, 1999, at 14:06:35
In reply to Re: Tangents, NPBR , posted by Mel on January 22, 1999, at 13:27:04
Mel, I too had that just-enough stash until just a couple months ago. I can't figure out when that option dissipated for me, but I truly did feel the loss.
David Sedaris is indeed and author who writes about all kinds of things -- family stuff, odd jobs he has had (Santaland Diaries is an absolute SCREAM!), etc. -- but the best part is when he reads them aloud! He's got a great, distinctive voice that cracks me up!
Glad to see the server is back up. I missed this board yesterday :-(
Posted by Chris A. on January 22, 1999, at 18:07:07
In reply to Re: Tangents, NPBR , posted by Shelley in Seattle on January 22, 1999, at 14:06:35
Stashes have been a problem for me too - even just having
my regular meds around can be a problem. My pychopharm is
excellent, but he never asks me what I'm planning to OD on,
probably because he doesn't want to hear that it includes a combo
of meds he's prescribed.
My spouse kept a couple of grams of a particularly lethal med on hand last
winter in case a family member contracted influenza. That stuff
hounded me from the shelf, especially during the days with more suicidal ideation.
I couldn't throw it away but finally convinced him to do something with
after forcing him to read the PDR entry. There is definitely a part of
me that grieves over having done that.
I wish caregivers and family members would be more sensitive to this
for those of us who struggle with the constant temptation of suicide.
suicide. On the other hand...please don't mess with my stash. I might
need it.Chris A.
Posted by David K. on January 22, 1999, at 18:13:58
In reply to Re: Tangents, NPBR , posted by Shelley in Seattle on January 22, 1999, at 14:06:35
I felt a "loss," too when I thought my suidcidal feelings were gone. Having them seems like some sort of "out" or potential pressure release. Or something.
I think that's also what kept me from getting myself to a psychiatrist for so long. This last time, when things were insufferably bad and I just couldn't seem to decide to live or die, I still just WOULDN'T make an appointment. I finally admitted to myself one day, while lying in bed after work as usual, that the reason I wouldn't call was that I was just TOO IN LOVE with my depression.
I asked a friend to make the appointment for me, since then I'd "have" to go. Luckilly, this turned out to be the only doctor that I actually LIKE, so going every week isn't a chore. (In fact, today I was thinking, "I get to see Dr. _____ tomorrow!" I'm spending tons of money, and it's like a TREAT ... ! Wacky.
(Insurance doesn't cover much, but I figure I'll either improve and it'll be worth it, or I'll be dead and then the money won't matter anyway. So I can't really lose. Right?)
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