Posted by garnet71 on May 6, 2009, at 20:21:32
In reply to Re: Addicted to Dopamine, posted by desolationrower on March 15, 2009, at 0:44:50
> well, i think its good to keep thinking about it, but keep in mind there may not really be I think not looking at specific symptoms hold back usefulness of drug research. although i sort of have it guessed out in my head what all my symptoms/personality map to as far as neurotransmitters/circuits etc. maybe you could do taht too, though it could be a big waste of time.
>lol-will you map out my symptoms/personality/ transmitters/circuits?? I bet you have a mathematical formula/model that somehow ties it all together too.
>
> well if you want to hear from the therapist: sounds like you try to understand other people's actions as being caused by you. but other people have their whole own world of reasons and thinking, and to the extent you affect it, it isn't YOU, its their poor understand of you. trying to understand the reason evertying happens will give you crazy anxiety.
>
>Cause and effect can explain a lot actually, and no I don't believe actions of others are caused by me, in a literal sense. But- People have motivations and incentives. There are dynamics between 2 individuals; you can't just seperate yourself from relationships. Our lives revolve around relationships, do they not? It takes 2 to form an interaction to begin with...It's not about "understanding" as much as it is dynamics (my fav word of the day). Thoughts > emotions > influences > experiences > motivations > actions. Actions resulting from all those variables are played out in relationships; another's psyche does play a role in how they relate to me/you/us.
>
> heh, but then i'd have to think too much. but i have trouble avoiding these things altogether. alright, i guess the thing i think is important to keep in mind is that our actions are most just about us. we react to other people, but we are mostly communicating who we are, what we believe, what we think was an offense against us, what we will retaliate against if done again, what we like in others, etc.
>Nope - does not translate into abuse of others. You can't say an innocent individual - say a child - is responsible for being abused because they were communicating who they are, what he/she believed, and what a child THINKS is an offense against him/her (attribution) etc. It doesn't explain it what happened - at all. that alone discredits your whole argument. : ) have you ever been abused?
>> probably especially important wrt narcicists: they have their own world they have made, and really don't give a sh*t what anyone else really thinks. Ok, also, having multiple emotions towards people, like sympathy because of waht one is going through, and dislike for sh*tty thigns someone does. really, most people who are pricks have also had it rough. its easy to be generous and caring and everything when you're always got good luck. we hold others responsible not because they have some ultimate free will, but because holding them responsible empowers them and is required if we respect them as people (the sort of basic respect anyone deserves).
No, my N ex bf had a good childhood. I'ts more about objectifying people (all sociopaths view people as objects). I know what you mean, though...others have it bad and take it out on others. I do see that a lot, and have sympathy for "mean" people..but the faulty logic in your statement (concerning naricissists) is that there is no way in hell they can be held responsible-there is no admission of wrongdoing, no feelings of remorse or guilt; everythign the narcissist does is the other person's 'fault'. That's what makes it so much more complicated. Normal people eventaully realize why they did what they did....their own personal role...a narcissist projects anything and everything \on others...I would not expect anyone who has not been in a relationship with a narcissist to ever understand. They won't. You just had to have been there to understand - at all. It wasn't until I had an experienced PhD for a psychologist/therpaist - one who had personally experienced the dynamics of interacting with such people-that I got any meaningful understanding from a mental health professional. This is a long story....But aside from that, narcissists are soo predictable once you figure out the psyche involved....it's not easy to figure out in the first place, however. But there is no holding a narcissist 'responsible' if they can't even acknowledge their actions. Narcissists do nothing wrong-ever. It's all denial and projection. Lack of ability to even have empathy. Not having empathy means attribution cannot explain much.
>> i guess this all come from my general personality. i'm quite cynical, but cheerful. we're all both good and evil, often they are the same thing. bad things happen because humans have human nature, and institutions work based on that, and instiutions as least can be changed. i see systematic causes for most things; fundamental attribution error is really important - but i think the good and beautiful are things we create by observing and acting and appreciating. so i don't really get angry, ever.Actually, I believe cynisism can be a manifestation of anger; related to attribution theory is that everything is derived from only a handful of emotions; anger being one of the main culprits. If you don't get angry "ever" I would say you are not acknowledging your anger; but instead, letting it manifest in other ways that are probably not known to you--including directing it at yourself. I don't think there is a human being alive who does not feel anger....(how can you believe you don't experience anger?????) but you can dissassociate oneself from it--which perverts it--it will manifest in periphial ways that are unhealthy....Attribution does not explain everything. I agree with you about the systematic/institutions - definitely. But you know I'm cheerful too :-) And yes, we create the good and beautiful...from our own influnces/psyche.
>>>maybe if i knew what sunoco stickers meant, i would get angry about that.Ok so I should clarify about sunoco (an oil company) stickers..lol. Many people around here (i live in the NE) have Sunoco stickers on their car. I thought-why would anyone want to advertise for sunoco (unless you worked there I suppose)? The only conclusion that made sense was that some coporate Sunoco Car drives around, occaisionally giving free fuel to people who have the sticker on their car...I just can't understand why anyone would want to put a sunoco bumper sticker on their car--wtf?? It's sort of a stamp to show what you think is important...again, wtf!
>>>i guess i also end up thinking of otehr people as out of my control, i should focus on what actions i can change to get what i want. my therapist has said i should just expect others to do more of the work. see, wtf was the thesis of this?
>yes, others and their emotions are outside of one's control--but the foundation of our lives is relationships--you can't act as a seperate being....thinking allowing others to be responsible for their own emotions - and stopping it short of letting it go there - only disconnects you from others. And while attribution explains a lot about our perception and communication, it does not adequately explain dynamics. There's a lot more to it than that. I agree with focusing on what WE can control, but you can't seperate the cause/effect, and treat a relationship as a composition of 2 seperate variables. But focusing more on what you can change (about yourself), like you said, is very positive, imo. But it doesn't stop the quest in understanding the why's how's what's of your past.
And WTF is my thesis? I forget the whole point of this conversation! lol
poster:garnet71
thread:884984
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/neuro/20090129/msgs/894564.html