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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Phil on April 11, 2002, at 7:19:38
There are tons of new meds in the pipeline to treat depression. There is always hope for the future unless you give up.
What would yall think about some kind of accountability for suicidal people?
Maybe we could pick a sponser to call if we feel suicidal. Maybe part of being in this community means, before you hurt yourself(days before), you must post here.
Idealistic post, but IS there a way to help from here?
Any ideas?
Posted by Shar on April 11, 2002, at 13:00:08
In reply to Suicide and support, posted by Phil on April 11, 2002, at 7:19:38
Phil,
Is it life at any cost?That no matter how horrible it is, how long one has been in pain, how many meds one has tried, how many decades of therapy one has engaged in...is it never time to make a considered decision to walk away? That even if it's possible to raise someone a notch above the black pit, it's not good enough?
What could a sponsor accomplish except to encourage one to endure more "life" ?
Shar
Posted by shelliR on April 11, 2002, at 14:32:09
In reply to Re: Suicide and support, posted by Shar on April 11, 2002, at 13:00:08
I'll have to agree with both of you on some level.
I think suicide *is* a personal choice for everyone, and a right.
But back to Phil's idea, too often suicide is impulsive. Maybe if Sar had checked in for a few days before her suicide she could have gotten help, and maybe have changed moods, as she readily did. I really think that Sar was more than depressed; perhaps her impulsiveness was tied to being a bipolar and/or dissociative. The acting out of her depression was very quick and then she moved back to the positive.
So? I don't know.
Shelli
Posted by kid47 on April 11, 2002, at 14:58:18
In reply to Re: Suicide and support, posted by Shar on April 11, 2002, at 13:00:08
There is always a chance that a new drug will fix ya or that your disease will spontaneously remit of it's own accord. How long should we hang on to that hope? When is it time ( if ever) to let go & take that final drastic step. I know that each time I have been pulled back from the edge I have at some point been ecstatic (not manic) that I did not succeed with ending my earthbound existence. I used to feel that my rare experiences of joy & peace were just a brief reminder of what I am missing. A cruel taunt to rub my nose in the fact that for the most part my life is grounded in misery. Then these became my rewards. my lifelines. For all the hell, these infrequent slices of heaven gave me just enough to continue. Maybe some aren't that lucky. Maybe their only glimpse is more blackness. But what is a fair shot. If you knew that when you turned 80 your depression would lift , is that sufficient to keep plugging away for another 50 years.(being as you're only 29) I think having someone around to temper an impulsive notion of suicide has probably saved some lives. I think there are others who are more resolute & have what they feel is a carefully considered (& only) option. With death, especially suicide there is always collaterall damage. If we feel we have a breath of a chance of preventing it we will try. If for no other reason than to protect ourselves from the horrible fallout. I know this is a ramble & I am not doing a good job of articulating my gut. There is a certain amount of selfishness involved. Someone chooses death to stop the pain & someone wants to prevent it to avoid the pain of loss. God that sounds sooo cynical. I don't think I really feel that way. I know Sar's death sucked all the air out my body. I barely knew her but I was as devastaed as I get . I would do whatever I could to prevent it from happening again. In 1999 I was hospitalized while I was trying to figure out how to make my death look like an accident so my family could collect my life insurance. Fortunately I was a bit psychotic which called attention to the fact that I was not well. After years of unmitigated misery I had had enough. I was done. 3 years later I am well. I have been med-free & symptom free for 3 mos. I am aware it may be only temporary. I wish I could tell you what "cured me" I have seen countless therps & pdocs. I have taken every med known to man, spent a small fortune on Vitamins& mood enhancing crystals. I have magnets in my shoes for Gods sake. Whatever caused this turn of events I am glad as hell I am here to enjoy it. I have come close but because of luck & some brief intevention I am here. Some deaths are unpreventable. But we gotta try. If you're still reading this you have too much free time :0)
your ol bud
krafty
> Phil,
> Is it life at any cost?
>
> That no matter how horrible it is, how long one has been in pain, how many meds one has tried, how many decades of therapy one has engaged in...is it never time to make a considered decision to walk away? That even if it's possible to raise someone a notch above the black pit, it's not good enough?
>
> What could a sponsor accomplish except to encourage one to endure more "life" ?
>
> Shar
Posted by wendy b. on April 11, 2002, at 16:18:36
In reply to Suicide and support, posted by Phil on April 11, 2002, at 7:19:38
I think we should at least give this idea a try. Those who don't wish to participate in an "accountability" relationship do not have to. It could operate on a very informal basis. To let people know from time to time (via a post on PSB? how?) that they can ask for a "suicide-buddy" (to put it bluntly). Why not? I personally sit on the fence regarding the right of a person to take their own life, especially after the events of this week... But we are here for each other, there's no doubt about that.
Thanks, Phil, let's keep the conversation going... How do you envision it would work?
Best,
Wendy
> There are tons of new meds in the pipeline to treat depression. There is always hope for the future unless you give up.
>
> What would yall think about some kind of accountability for suicidal people?
>
> Maybe we could pick a sponser to call if we feel suicidal. Maybe part of being in this community means, before you hurt yourself(days before), you must post here.
>
> Idealistic post, but IS there a way to help from here?
>
> Any ideas?
Posted by Fi on April 11, 2002, at 16:37:53
In reply to Suicide and support, posted by Phil on April 11, 2002, at 7:19:38
I've done some careful thinking about this. This is my 6th revision...
I agree with the idea of offering support via the Board (and any other ways that people set up), but dont think these particular suggestions for accountability are exactly ways to go.
I would very much hope that people do post when they are feeling really bad- the problem is that they may chose not to, which I respect. And also lots of people may feel suicidal at times, but mostly they dont act on it. The ones who do act on it dont necessarily plan to in advance, if its an implusive thing. So there isnt a definite identifiable 'presuicide' phase.
I would also hope that people call a crisis hotline if they are seriously considering self harm- as dr bob says, 'talk to a real person'. This also has the advantage of an immediate response- I would hate for someone desperate to post to the Board and not get a reply for hours.Contact details for hotlines around the world are listed at http://www.befrienders.org/bidir/centre.html
The sponsor thing would have to mean that the chosen sponsor was OK about being in this extremely stressful position, and available 24 hours a day. I would be scared of being chosen, to be honest. I worry enough about people who post to the Board in general!
I agree that its not easy to defend people around someone lobbying them to continue living, if this is suggested only to avoid distress for the survivors.
However, I think its valid to point out to the suicidal person what the consequences of their action will be. One which is understandably at the forefront of your mind when feeling terrible is that the pain will end. The flaw with this argument for me is that I wouldnt be there to experience the relief of pain having ended, if you see what I mean. When you're dead, you're dead, not feeling relieved.
I also remind myself that my depression (as with most people) will end eventually, and also that it distorts my thinking, so I cant trust my hopelessness to be accurate.And knowing that your death will cause enormous distress to others may be an important consideration for the desperate person.
But whether to continue living remains a personal decision. I would just hope that anyone facing this decision gets as much support as possible.
Fi
Posted by Phil on April 11, 2002, at 18:27:30
In reply to Re: Suicide and support, posted by Fi on April 11, 2002, at 16:37:53
This was me thinking out loud too early this morning. We would have to find a way to make it work, as best we could. I know suicide is very often impulsive but it's not like it hasn't been rolling around in your head for weeks or months. It's not like you aren't sending signals if one is listening. That's the time to start a dialogue.
I've committed myself to not go the suicide route.
It only hurts you briefly, maybe, but it devastates people who love you. I believe it even hurts some 'enemies'.
I've heard that in hospitals, the dead are treated with reverence(right word?)while suicides
are seen much differently. Neither here nor there, I guess.You know, here's the thing. I was probably more suicidal when I was younger. I think so many times if I would have killed myself at 28 after a painful breakup with my girlfriend or at 17 when I didn't 'fit in'. I would have missed so much and a lot of it was good. I've seen several people on TV over the years that were saved just before they were gone. One guy, around 55, took a lot of pills with whiskey and had a hose from his exhaust into his car. I don't recall how he was saved but I'll never forget his tears of happiness that he was alive.
Nobody really wants to die; they want the pain to stop. Sometimes it doesn't. Are you gonna go to ANY lengths to live or will you kill yourself? I know sar would have had many happy days ahead if she could have stuck it out. That breaks my heart.
Sometimes we have to break life down. What small thing can I do today that I couldn't yesterday. Say hi to your asshole neighbor. Walk 50 yards.
Piss somebody off, whatever.Every one has the right to take their life and I have been on the edge too. Just remember next time you want to die, you will kill off a piece of your friends and family.
We get one go-round on earth and God knows it's gone so fast anyway. Why not stay around and just do the best you can.
If we could somehow stop 1(one)suicide and that person stumbled on the answer they needed to get well, would that be cool or what?
I will be 49 in July. I look around and I barely get by, depression has taken it's toll for sure. I don't see a happy future but I know I can glean some happiness out of it all. Who knows the future?
With my luck, I'd kill myself and the absolute cure would be in the headlines tomorrow.
I'm sorry, what was this thread about?
Posted by Krazy Kat on April 11, 2002, at 19:02:00
In reply to Re: Suicide and support, posted by Shar on April 11, 2002, at 13:00:08
phil:
i hope i don't overdo the male/female thing - please forgive me if i do. but it means so much to me to see posts by you and the other men who are part of this board. i feel it offers a different perspective and helps keep us grounded.
of course, i wish we had even more perspectives - gay and straight - well... any that are as kind and thoughtful as you.
this is an intriguing idea. i would like to mull it over some. i'm processing things a little slowly.
again, thank you so much for your input, always, and at this time.
- kk
Posted by Phil on April 11, 2002, at 20:08:40
In reply to Re: Suicide and support -- phil, posted by Krazy Kat on April 11, 2002, at 19:02:00
Damn.
That is about the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me. That was the last thing I was expecting to hear. Being a child of two alcoholics, when someone catches you unaware with a true compliment and bam, get the Kleenex.
This feels like one of those little miracles you sometimes get in life. kk thank you for your kindness. Kindness is a beautiful quality to possess in life.
Phil
Posted by Phil on April 12, 2002, at 17:47:01
In reply to Re: Suicide and support -- phil, posted by Krazy Kat on April 11, 2002, at 19:02:00
I don't think it's the men more than women keeping equilibrium here. I have been helped by women tremendously...on the board.
In real life, I can't keep one for 15 minutes.
But, thanks again for the kind words.
Posted by Cecilia on April 12, 2002, at 23:28:04
In reply to Suicide and support, posted by Phil on April 11, 2002, at 7:19:38
Re: not killing yourself to spare the feelings of family and friends. Some of us don`t have anyone who would care that much. That`s why we`re depressed.
Posted by Phil on April 13, 2002, at 8:15:54
In reply to Re: Suicide and support, posted by Cecilia on April 12, 2002, at 23:28:04
No, we're depressed because we have a disease that blinds us to the reality that there is SOMEONE who cares.
Posted by jay on April 13, 2002, at 12:12:00
In reply to Re: Suicide and support..Cecilia, posted by Phil on April 13, 2002, at 8:15:54
Posted by Ritch on April 13, 2002, at 13:52:15
In reply to Everyone. *Must* Read Night Falls Fast (nm), posted by jay on April 13, 2002, at 12:12:00
Jay,
Where is it?
Who wrote it?Mitch
Posted by SusanG on April 13, 2002, at 16:26:34
In reply to Re: Suicide and support, posted by Fi on April 11, 2002, at 16:37:53
I just felt a need to respond to the comment about suicide hotlines. I called one recently and, as the jokes go, I was put on hold. When someone finally answered, she sounded irritated that my emotion-choked words were hard to understand. When she reponded, it sounded like she was reading from a script that bored her. Oh well, maybe she was having a bad day too. This is not meant to say that hotlines aren't potentially a good resource but I guess those of us "at-risk" need to have multiple resources we can contact when the need arises.
Posted by Krazy Kat on April 16, 2002, at 8:39:10
In reply to Re: Everyone. *Must* Read Night Falls Fast » jay, posted by Ritch on April 13, 2002, at 13:52:15
by Kay Redfield Jamison
it is Very intense, imho. i agree with jay, but please put it down if it gets too close to home. i have been reading it very slowly in small increments for about a year.
- kk
Posted by Ritch on April 16, 2002, at 9:28:08
In reply to About Night Falls Fast, posted by Krazy Kat on April 16, 2002, at 8:39:10
> by Kay Redfield Jamison
>
> it is Very intense, imho. i agree with jay, but please put it down if it gets too close to home. i have been reading it very slowly in small increments for about a year.
>
> - kkThanks for replying. I wrote the author's name and the title down. I think I will pick up a copy of "Owen Meany" since I like John Irving's stuff so much. I suspect that "Night Falls Fast" is not exactly a humourous novel (I love *black* humor however). I haven't read a novel since I tackled "Sound and the Fury" three years ago! If there isn't a good hook fairly soon in I won't stick with it.
Mitch
Posted by Trisha Longhair on December 22, 2003, at 0:57:54
In reply to Re: Suicide and support Phil, » Shar, posted by shelliR on April 11, 2002, at 14:32:09
Is it ethical to discontinue a pain medication used in a suicide attempt, when the cause of the attempt was pain issues?
Posted by 8 Miles on December 22, 2003, at 19:06:25
In reply to Pain Medication Discontinued After The Attempt, posted by Trisha Longhair on December 22, 2003, at 0:57:54
Wow! Now THAT'S digging into the archives! I have an answer that would explain most Pdoc's resonse to your question. Yes, it is INDEED ethical to remove the item from someone who used it to attempt suicide. Even a hint of over(self)medicating on a controlled substance would make any reasonable Doc pull the plug on that substance. I mean I have seen that happen many times. When my wife was in a "suicical" mood, and was just taking like 3.5mgs of Tranzene (which is like candy at that dose) her Pdoc pulled her off of it immediately, and after a year has refused to scribe her any anxiolytics. I mean it's the same as someone who tried to shot themselves with a gun, are you just going to walk away and let them keep it in their lap? I don't think so. Suicial ideation runs in cycles, and one never knows when it may come back to visit. So, the responsible thing to do IS to remove that particular item. It's just common sense to me. However, I think if someone has gone a long time and had followed through with treatments, that if a particular med would be beneficial, it could be returned on a very limited basis, maybe a week's worth at a time. I mean I am very open-minded when it comes to using controlled substances to treat certain conditions. But your basic question is about the ETHICAL reasoning of a Doc, and I firmly believe that this is one of the hardest thing medical providers have to struggle with. And I would support that decision as reasonable and appropriate.
8
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