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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by trouble on April 8, 2002, at 3:32:13
Hey all,
Maybe I have tunnel vision, I see one reason people kill themselves, but why am I looking for 1 reason? Why can't there be 2 reasons or 200? Or one reason being the foundation upon which all the other reasons are built?
I believe people kill when they have become alienated, some people kill others, other people kill themselves. This concept of alienation is not much in use in American families, so, obviously there must be something in it people don't want to think about.
The only definition I ever got of it was when my professor wrote on the blackboard: "ALIEN NATION: when you feel like an alien in your own nation."He didn't give us the cure, of course. But another word for alienation is etrangememt, so people doing drastic things out of feeling strange and alien tells me the only answer is to get involved, since I don't think for a minute that people are all that strange or alien but I certainly know how totalizing an experience it is to feel that way. And how easy it is to get out of it, when you place yourself into loving hands. When you're honest and trust that the person talking you out of it knows beauty and goodness when s/he sees it, so when s/he says you are loveable, you have to take it on faith, and hope someday you'll see it too.
It seemed like this was happening w/ Sar, she didn't ask for much, but that takes time, I honestly been thinking she's got herself into a good place at last, knows where her next meal is coming from, problems in living are eating her up but problems have solutions usually built in, and some problems manage to take care of themselves.
Of all the truly despairing existential dilemmas of human life I'd have thught financial peoblems would be the last thing on the list. I grew up on relief, there's always welfare, and food stamps,
churches and charities, and bankruptcy is not a crime, but now that I'm grown up I know personally, how just school loans and a modest mortgage and credit card bills you can't keep up on takes a toll, my hair is grayer since I've been in money trouble, it's devastating to go thru it alone but you don't want to admit to anyone how bad it is. My therapist thinks this is nuts, when I finally called in crises mode and said I'm going under financially, there's no way out but to kill myself, he said money problems are normal, even millionaires file bankruptcy, this isn't that important, the important thing is self-preservation, and I knew instantly that he was right, what was I thinking and remembered Gracie telling Sar that it got so bad she was living in a shack and eating off a hot plate, and look at her now, been there, done that, knows what to do should it happen again, knows she can handle whatever comes next. Empirical proof.That's why, if the grown ups come on and tell us this board was never meant to be your sole salvation, for some of us it's all we got, and it may not fit the need, but it's better than nothing, and we can rest knowing she went to her death unalone, so I'm wondering if alienation wasn't what made her erase her existence from the face of the earth, could it have been the money problems, can money problems do that to a 24 year old kid?
trouble
Posted by Zo on April 8, 2002, at 5:09:10
In reply to this is long, no answers, nothin, posted by trouble on April 8, 2002, at 3:32:13
Money problems and being sick. And being that young. Christ. Not even old enough to know that it passes, and comes around again, and even when you think there is no resilience to the soul, there really still is. The right meds are like love. They make us feel more kindly towards ourselves by remanufacturing something broken in the brain. The death of someone twenty-four is senseless--yet I've never thought quite so clearly how
*unmediated* must be the pain. How raw.I hope we learn more. Somewhere to send a card.
Love,
Zo
Posted by fi on April 8, 2002, at 12:28:14
In reply to this is long, no answers, nothin, posted by trouble on April 8, 2002, at 3:32:13
I didnt know her well, so this isnt about Sar personally.
I would say people can have loads of different reasons for committing or attempting suicide. Money problems would certainly be one. Examples of the loads of others would be: a calm approach to unbearable suffering with no hope of its relief(mental or physical), an attempt with no aim to die but to 'get back' at family, an impulsive act in a crisis. As well as alienation.
I think its true that this Board can maybe help a little with that. I'm also pleased that (of the posts I have read), no-one is giving themselves a hard time about us not somehow doing more. The Board does have its limits.
Of course, I will miss Sar. My thoughts are also very much with those of you who knew her well.
Fi
Posted by friend on April 8, 2002, at 12:54:48
In reply to Re: sadness, posted by Zo on April 8, 2002, at 5:09:10
i don't know where to tell you to send the card. i suppose typically it would be to the family, but her family did some pretty bad things too her and she was not on good terms with them. maybe a donation in her name for abused children or to an animal rights place would be something she would want more.
friend
Posted by Krazy Kat on April 8, 2002, at 13:09:37
In reply to Re: sadness, posted by friend on April 8, 2002, at 12:54:48
friend:
thank you so much for your postings.
this was going to be my main question - i would like to send a donation in her memory. if you have any thoughts re: an institution she loved, please let us know.
thanks again.
- kk
Posted by friend on April 8, 2002, at 13:20:21
In reply to donations, posted by Krazy Kat on April 8, 2002, at 13:09:37
i know that she was a big animal rights activist. i don't know for sure of any other instituitions that she was a part of, but i think she was also into shelters for abused women and children. it feels so unreal saying this. i can't believe she is gone. now i don't know what else to say to her friends. some of them are taking her suicide as such a surprise which makes it harder. when sar posted about how people don't realize that she was depressed she was right. i feel like i knew her better than a lot of her other friends because i knew the real her, and i feel so much worse now for not acknowledging it. and i didn't think i should tell her closer friends about this web site, i thought that it would be an invasion of her privacy and if she wanted them to know, she would tell them. should i say anything to anyone? it might make them feel better, less of a shock if i said more about what she felt and her own thoughts on suicide. i remember them clearly now. anyone else who wants to remember, they are posted on 7/7/01. and rereading that did make me feel better, but i don't know. the whole thing is so strange that i can't think of what to say or do.
Posted by Krazy Kat on April 8, 2002, at 13:41:16
In reply to Re: donations, posted by friend on April 8, 2002, at 13:20:21
friend:
i would give yourself some time to grieve and think before making these decisions. they are large and a great responsibility.
i don't know if her other friends should know about the site - it was perhaps meant to be a safe haven for such unsavory topics as suicide when she was here, but now?
one thing is for certain - neither you, nor anyone close to her should blame themselves AT ALL for this. sar was meant for a different life than most, and i felt early on a shorter one. i'm sure there's a spectacular reason this happened, who knows what she accomplished by doing this.
i guess that sounds awful to some people, especially those who are very uncomfortable with suicide. but i'm sure there's something positive in all of the pain, just sure of it.
don't feel like you have to post your feelings here, or respond at all.
- kk
Posted by Zo on April 8, 2002, at 22:35:52
In reply to Re: donations, posted by friend on April 8, 2002, at 13:20:21
Whenever you feel up to it. . .it would be so helpful to us, if you could suggest the place, give us the name.Thank you so much,
Zo
Posted by mair on April 9, 2002, at 7:40:44
In reply to Re: donations » friend, posted by Zo on April 8, 2002, at 22:35:52
I think this Board was one of Sar's most reliable sources of support, and one she wouldn't have been able to draw upon if she had to pay. She was as consistent a poster as almost anyone and I was struck by the fact that even after she moved to Austin and had no computer, she still managed to find a way to get on, even if less frequently. She'd go to a friend's house or most recently, to the library. That told me that it was important to her to stay connected with the people on the Board.
I'm sure lots of us feel like we let her down (I know I do), but I still think the Board was valuable to her and she wouldn't quibble with a desire to support and perpetuate it in her memory.
Mair
Posted by kristi on April 9, 2002, at 22:58:25
In reply to I think donations should be made to the Board, posted by mair on April 9, 2002, at 7:40:44
> I think this Board was one of Sar's most reliable sources of support, and one she wouldn't have been able to draw upon if she had to pay. She was as consistent a poster as almost anyone and I was struck by the fact that even after she moved to Austin and had no computer, she still managed to find a way to get on, even if less frequently. She'd go to a friend's house or most recently, to the library. That told me that it was important to her to stay connected with the people on the Board.
>
> I'm sure lots of us feel like we let her down (I know I do), but I still think the Board was valuable to her and she wouldn't quibble with a desire to support and perpetuate it in her memory.
>
> Mair
I think that is a wonderful idea!!!!!!!! I believe this is where she felt safe enought to reach out... she trusted this place. Might be a terrific place for a donation.
Posted by shelliR on April 9, 2002, at 23:49:54
In reply to I think donations should be made to the Board, posted by mair on April 9, 2002, at 7:40:44
Okay, I have this idea that Sar's posts could be written up anoynomously *at some point* as a journal of Sar during this last year. Her joy, sorrow, love, humor.
I want Sar and Sar's talent to live.
This is not something to do now. Just a possiblity to hold.
My assumption is that anyone has the same right to use the posts on this board as Dr. Bob. But I'm not sure. Also if this ever materializes, the e-mails that Sar sent could also be used. If a publisher ever picked it up, all profits could be used as donations to PB, etc.
I hope nobody finds this idea offensive, even if it's not a good one. I mean only the greatest love and respect for Sar.
Shelli
Posted by Fi on April 10, 2002, at 12:09:33
In reply to Re: donations, posted by friend on April 8, 2002, at 13:20:21
That sounds a really hard one re whether you should tell people about her using the Board, and what she said.
I dont think there is necessarily a 'right' answer. Its important to do what *you* are most comfortable with.
Personally, I think you make a very good point when you say that Sar herself chose not to tell her friends about the Board, or her feelings. So she certainly didnt want them to know when she was alive.
I've been thinking: would I feel less upset if a friend of mine killed themselves unexpectedly (to me) and I later found out they had told a Board how bad they felt? I dont know- I might feel slightly comforted that they had some support, but could make me feel worse that *I* hadnt known. And raises dilemma you had of whether or not I should read her posts. I dont think I would be angry at Board members who knew and didnt 'do' something to prevent it, but I guess some other people might react that way.
An in-between tactic would be to tell them that you had spoken with her occassionally (but not recently) and knew that she sometimes felt really bad. But I realise that could get complicated as its not entirely true, and if they persisted in wanting to know more details,you would be in a worse mess than saying nothing.
Look after yourself, whatever you decide. That's the most important thing.
Fi
Posted by Marie1 on April 10, 2002, at 16:48:55
In reply to Donation to PB great idea; also another crazy idea, posted by shelliR on April 9, 2002, at 23:49:54
Shelli,
I love the idea. What drew me to Sar in the first place was her eloquence with words.
I would also be interested in making a donation to PB in her memory.Marie
Posted by susan C on April 11, 2002, at 20:19:06
In reply to I think donations should be made to the Board, posted by mair on April 9, 2002, at 7:40:44
there is a green rectangle at the top part of the board which gives instructions on how to make...."donations"
you can make them anonymous by putting a note on it instructing Dr Bob what to do/how you would like it handled.
rather than sending cash money through the mail, someone has suggested using a USPS/money order, they can be sent specifically to Dr Bob Hsiung
...or whomever/where ever place you choose,
but dont need to put your name on it...did i get that right?
mouse trying to help with her little paws
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2002, at 1:07:07
In reply to Re: I think donations...FYI, posted by susan C on April 11, 2002, at 20:19:06
> they can be sent specifically to Dr Bob Hsiung
They may be sent to me, but please make them out to the University of Chicago and include a note indicating that they're to support my Internet work:
http://www.dr-bob.org/support.html#Donations
Thanks! I've received one check in memory of Sar already.
Bob
Posted by Fi on April 12, 2002, at 7:30:12
In reply to Re: donations, posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2002, at 1:07:07
Let us non-US folk know if credit card payment becomes possible at some point? I dont expect your university would be especially thrilled to receive a cheque/check in UK pounds from a UK bank...!
But I do realise secure online payment is difficult to set up.
The only route I can think of at the moment would be for us to buy you a book (or whatever) that you wanted via Amazon, having it sent to you?
Fi
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2002, at 11:37:13
In reply to Re: donations » Dr. Bob, posted by Fi on April 12, 2002, at 7:30:12
> I do realise secure online payment is difficult to set up.
Not as difficult as it used to be! I've been working on it. Maybe this summer?
Bob
Posted by Fi on April 12, 2002, at 17:14:52
In reply to Re: donations, posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2002, at 11:37:13
Let us know, whenever.
But Amazon offer still open, if useful.
Fi
Posted by Marie1 on April 12, 2002, at 17:18:00
In reply to Re: donations, posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2002, at 11:37:13
What about PayPal? Could you accept donations that way?
Marie
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2002, at 18:31:20
In reply to Re: donations » Dr. Bob, posted by Marie1 on April 12, 2002, at 17:18:00
> What about PayPal? Could you accept donations that way?
That's what I've been wondering, but I'm not set up yet...
Bob
Posted by wendy b. on April 12, 2002, at 19:29:29
In reply to Re: donations, posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2002, at 18:31:20
> > What about PayPal? Could you accept donations that way?
>
> That's what I've been wondering, but I'm not set up yet...
>
> Bob
PayPal is very easy to set up, just go to the web site and follow directions. Anyone can do it, not just vendors, so it's great for ebay, college students, etc. Cash can go back and forth between folks without much lag time. You can keep money in it, like a checking account, and even earn interest on the amount, it's currently 1.86%, Money Market. If you have a business acount, you can accept credit card donations, but there are fees involved (like a bank). I'm sure they figure out the rate of exchange (for foreign currency) and just do it for you. A new feature on the international exchanges is that you're not charged a fee for it anymore.Wendy
Posted by ST on April 16, 2002, at 21:38:11
In reply to this is long, no answers, nothin, posted by trouble on April 8, 2002, at 3:32:13
The many times I've wanted to kill myself have had a lot to do with financial problems...being a starving artist and all...blah blah blah. How transient, though. I've never had the good fortune to have someone, a therapist - anyone - spell it out for me the way trouble's therapist did. It makes so much sense.
But when I was 24 and already deeply depressed chemically, financial crap put the capper on it all. It was the impetus...it pushed me to the edge. (But never over it)???????????
> Hey all,
>
> Maybe I have tunnel vision, I see one reason people kill themselves, but why am I looking for 1 reason? Why can't there be 2 reasons or 200? Or one reason being the foundation upon which all the other reasons are built?
>
> I believe people kill when they have become alienated, some people kill others, other people kill themselves. This concept of alienation is not much in use in American families, so, obviously there must be something in it people don't want to think about.
> The only definition I ever got of it was when my professor wrote on the blackboard: "ALIEN NATION: when you feel like an alien in your own nation."
>
> He didn't give us the cure, of course. But another word for alienation is etrangememt, so people doing drastic things out of feeling strange and alien tells me the only answer is to get involved, since I don't think for a minute that people are all that strange or alien but I certainly know how totalizing an experience it is to feel that way. And how easy it is to get out of it, when you place yourself into loving hands. When you're honest and trust that the person talking you out of it knows beauty and goodness when s/he sees it, so when s/he says you are loveable, you have to take it on faith, and hope someday you'll see it too.
>
> It seemed like this was happening w/ Sar, she didn't ask for much, but that takes time, I honestly been thinking she's got herself into a good place at last, knows where her next meal is coming from, problems in living are eating her up but problems have solutions usually built in, and some problems manage to take care of themselves.
>
> Of all the truly despairing existential dilemmas of human life I'd have thught financial peoblems would be the last thing on the list. I grew up on relief, there's always welfare, and food stamps,
> churches and charities, and bankruptcy is not a crime, but now that I'm grown up I know personally, how just school loans and a modest mortgage and credit card bills you can't keep up on takes a toll, my hair is grayer since I've been in money trouble, it's devastating to go thru it alone but you don't want to admit to anyone how bad it is. My therapist thinks this is nuts, when I finally called in crises mode and said I'm going under financially, there's no way out but to kill myself, he said money problems are normal, even millionaires file bankruptcy, this isn't that important, the important thing is self-preservation, and I knew instantly that he was right, what was I thinking and remembered Gracie telling Sar that it got so bad she was living in a shack and eating off a hot plate, and look at her now, been there, done that, knows what to do should it happen again, knows she can handle whatever comes next. Empirical proof.
>
> That's why, if the grown ups come on and tell us this board was never meant to be your sole salvation, for some of us it's all we got, and it may not fit the need, but it's better than nothing, and we can rest knowing she went to her death unalone, so I'm wondering if alienation wasn't what made her erase her existence from the face of the earth, could it have been the money problems, can money problems do that to a 24 year old kid?
>
> trouble
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 17, 2002, at 10:41:56
In reply to Re: donations, posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2002, at 1:07:07
> http://www.dr-bob.org/support.html#Donations
>
> I've received one check in memory of Sar already.Just got a second, thanks again!
Bob
Posted by Fi on April 19, 2002, at 6:07:58
In reply to Re: I think donations...FYI, posted by susan C on April 11, 2002, at 20:19:06
I've just been looking a bit further up on the donations page (ie at http://www.dr-bob.org/support.html)
I hadnt realised that Dr Bob pays 300 dollars a month for the server space, as well as all the time he gives to it.
Not that I think anyone should feel under any pressure to donate, and there clearly isnt any from Dr Bob himself.
Most relevant to those of us who value the Boards *and* feel well enough to organise ourselves to do it *and* can afford to make a donation. And of course there isnt any set amount, or minimum.
Other non-US folk like me: I'm going to try sending a (small) cheque in my own currency. We'll see if it works- if so, I'll let you know! Otherwise, sounds like there will be a credit card option sometime in the future.
Fi
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 23, 2002, at 14:54:16
In reply to Re: donations, posted by Dr. Bob on April 17, 2002, at 10:41:56
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/support.html#Donations
> >
> > I've received one check in memory of Sar already.
>
> Just got a second, thanks again!And now a third. Thanks, judy1 & Gabrielle! :-)
Bob
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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