![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 58. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rnny on April 2, 2010, at 18:59:15
Or are you willing to be someone's friend just because they look like they need a friend or because they are nice to you? Do you have standards by which you determine who is and who won't be your friend?
I'm selective. I don't tolerate any kind of mental issues that the person won't take the time to treat. I don't want their poison dripping into my world.
I am taking the time to get treatment for my own psychiatric issues with one goal being to be free from unacceptable behaviors that might infringe upon the rights of others.
And I expect the same from people I make friends with. For them to act in a way that does not disrupt or impede the progress I have made and am making in psychotherapy.
There are friends and there are acquaintances. And they are not the same!
Posted by obsidian on April 2, 2010, at 20:34:48
In reply to Are you selective in making friends?, posted by rnny on April 2, 2010, at 18:59:15
> Or are you willing to be someone's friend just because they look like they need a friend or because they are nice to you? Do you have standards by which you determine who is and who won't be your friend?
>
> I'm selective. I don't tolerate any kind of mental issues that the person won't take the time to treat. I don't want their poison dripping into my world.
>
> I am taking the time to get treatment for my own psychiatric issues with one goal being to be free from unacceptable behaviors that might infringe upon the rights of others.
>
> And I expect the same from people I make friends with. For them to act in a way that does not disrupt or impede the progress I have made and am making in psychotherapy.
>
> There are friends and there are acquaintances. And they are not the same!yeah, I'd say I'm pretty selective. I think I'm pleasant enough, but not overly friendly, maybe hard to get to know. I like a lot of people though, but I'm careful.
I do have some really awesome friends though, they really are amazing people, and some pretty great acquaintances, but the ones that I am really friends with are usually ones that happen to share some of my interests.
They are creative, kind, smart, passionate, sensitive, honest, moral, freaking talented and very bright people, warm and capable of caring and trusting relationships. Did I choose them because of that?
hmmmm....I dunno, maybe I was just lucky?
I know that when I've had a friend that I didn't really feel a connection with, I just sort of let it fade away. It's had to do with me feeling they were judgmental or really selfish or that they were "better" than me.Do my friends have issues? well yes, it makes them more interesting of course...sucks for us in general though!
there are many types of psychological issues though...so yeah, if someone were toxic to me I wouldn't be friends with them. I'm not a masochist (in that regard anyway). I don't invite relationships that are hurtful to me.
Posted by emmanuel98 on April 2, 2010, at 20:45:22
In reply to Are you selective in making friends?, posted by rnny on April 2, 2010, at 18:59:15
A lot of my friends are in 12-step groups which means, by definition, that they are working positively on themselves to become more honest and open human beings. But I have a woman I know in the neighborhood who is psychotic and delusional. She lives on SSDI in public housing. I like her a lot and feel sorry for her and occasionally visit her. I don't exactly think of her as a friend, since she is really incapable of taking care of me or my needs. But she probably thinks of me as a friend.
Posted by Willful on April 3, 2010, at 0:28:36
In reply to Are you selective in making friends?, posted by rnny on April 2, 2010, at 18:59:15
I'm perplexed. I thought you said this was part of your T's advice to you, rather than your own policy on friendship.
I'm not close friends with anyone I don't really like, but I find that there are people whom I initially don't connect to, who are interesting, and worth hanging out with. I don't think that people who have "mental issues" are in any way dripping poison or not worthy of my friendship. Actually, everyone has mental issues of some sort- the limitations they impose and the way they manifest themselves can be more or less visible or disturbing-- but they can often be under the surface, or even contribute to the connection.
I wonder if you have a negative view of yourself before you sought treatment-- and I question how you see yourself now, since you are still in therapy and therefore may still have as many issues as other who haven't sought treatment.
Do you know where you got this view of people with mental issues?
Willful
Posted by rnny on April 3, 2010, at 1:11:22
In reply to Re: Are you selective in making friends?, posted by Willful on April 3, 2010, at 0:28:36
You see a lot don't you Willful. Why don't you turn that high-powered perception at yourself and tell us what you see, or, maybe you're afraid to.
-----------------------------------------------
> I'm perplexed. I thought you said this was part of your T's advice to you, rather than your own policy on friendship.
>
> I'm not close friends with anyone I don't really like, but I find that there are people whom I initially don't connect to, who are interesting, and worth hanging out with. I don't think that people who have "mental issues" are in any way dripping poison or not worthy of my friendship. Actually, everyone has mental issues of some sort- the limitations they impose and the way they manifest themselves can be more or less visible or disturbing-- but they can often be under the surface, or even contribute to the connection.
>
> I wonder if you have a negative view of yourself before you sought treatment-- and I question how you see yourself now, since you are still in therapy and therefore may still have as many issues as other who haven't sought treatment.
>
> Do you know where you got this view of people with mental issues?
>
> Willful
Posted by emme on April 3, 2010, at 10:24:30
In reply to Are you selective in making friends?, posted by rnny on April 2, 2010, at 18:59:15
> Do you have standards by which you determine who is and who won't be your friend?
Kindness, humility, humor, curiosity, and an appreciation for each person's individuality. Shared interests such as hobbies or career are nice, but not necessary. It sounds like a tall order, but I find many people who fit the bill fairly well.
Psych diagnoses don't figure in, nor is poison a word I'd use except in extremely rare circumstances. In those unusual circumstances when someone has untreated or under-treated mental illness and I'm drained but still like them, I adjust the time I spend with them so that I still have a relationship but am not worn out. When they improve, I am happy that I still know them. I believe in redemption.
emme
> I'm selective. I don't tolerate any kind of mental issues that the person won't take the time to treat. I don't want their poison dripping into my world.
>
> I am taking the time to get treatment for my own psychiatric issues with one goal being to be free from unacceptable behaviors that might infringe upon the rights of others.
>
> And I expect the same from people I make friends with. For them to act in a way that does not disrupt or impede the progress I have made and am making in psychotherapy.
>
> There are friends and there are acquaintances. And they are not the same!
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 3, 2010, at 12:22:46
In reply to Re: Are you selective in making friends?, posted by rnny on April 3, 2010, at 1:11:22
> You see a lot don't you Willful. Why don't you turn that high-powered perception at yourself and tell us what you see, or, maybe you're afraid to.
Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, could you please rephrase that?
Please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person, and I'm sorry if this hurts you.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express oneself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by obsidian on April 3, 2010, at 18:32:28
In reply to Re: Are you selective in making friends?, posted by rnny on April 3, 2010, at 1:11:22
hey! that was from silence of the lambs
Posted by floatingbridge on April 3, 2010, at 18:34:33
In reply to Are you selective in making friends?, posted by rnny on April 2, 2010, at 18:59:15
Umm, I'm perplexed. I don't see any mention of excluding people with psychiatric dx's in this thread....
This is a carry-over from a previous thread about what a therapist said. Anything else about the poster seems to be inferred.
fb
Posted by rnny on April 3, 2010, at 20:56:10
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » rnny, posted by Dr. Bob on April 3, 2010, at 12:22:46
In the movie "The Silence of the Lambs", Dr. Hanibal Lecter (an imprisoned serial killer psychiatrist) was analyzing Jodie Foster who played an FBI agent assigned to interogate Lecter in order to get information out of him to help solve a pending crime. Lecter was very saavy with interpreting people and had a good sence for what they were all about, what they stood for. With Jodie Foster or as her character was called, Clarice Sterling, Lecter was not about to give up information freely and he really made Sterling work for it by playing head games with her and saying things to her that would throw her off kilter. In one scene Lecter is doing his thing, being condescending to Sterling and she talks back to him and says essentially, "you have very good insight about others, now let's hear you talk about yourself". That is what I was saying. Willful suggested and or said a few things about me in his/her post that are nothing more than his/her perception. I thought Willful was being presumptuous since they don't know me. Hence I decided to see if Willful would turn that powerful sence of diagnosing/figuring people out, if Willful would turn that on him/herself and instead of trying to figure me out, would dispense with some psychobabble about Willful instead. In short, "You seem to suggest alot about me Willful and you have never even met me. Let's see if you are that confident with talking about yourself and your issues".
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 4, 2010, at 19:40:19
In reply to Re: please rephrase that, posted by rnny on April 3, 2010, at 20:56:10
> "You seem to suggest alot about me Willful and you have never even met me. Let's see if you are that confident with talking about yourself and your issues".
Thanks, that's better, but I might feel challenged if someone posted that to me. Could you revise that again? Maybe just use an I-statement to describe your response to Willful's post? Thanks,
Bob
Posted by rnny on April 4, 2010, at 21:42:42
In reply to Re: please rephrase that again » rnny, posted by Dr. Bob on April 4, 2010, at 19:40:19
Willful, I was wondering if you think I come across as having alot of problems and I was wondering if you feel I am inferior to you. I want you to like me and am afraid maybe you don't.
> > "You seem to suggest alot about me Willful and you have never even met me. Let's see if you are that confident with talking about yourself and your issues".
>
> Thanks, that's better, but I might feel challenged if someone posted that to me. Could you revise that again? Maybe just use an I-statement to describe your response to Willful's post? Thanks,
>
> Bob
Posted by Sigismund on April 4, 2010, at 22:34:57
In reply to Re: please rephrase that again, posted by rnny on April 4, 2010, at 21:42:42
Superior, inferior, normal, abnormal.
Humans! Goodness.
Posted by obsidian on April 4, 2010, at 23:51:25
In reply to Re: please rephrase that again, posted by Sigismund on April 4, 2010, at 22:34:57
> Superior, inferior, normal, abnormal.
>
> Humans! Goodness.I would like to see the list of people starting from the best to the worst and also one indicating the most normal to the most abnormal.
Will it be one of those bell curves?
how skewed will I be?
everyone is better than me you know, it's quite tiring to live in the world when absolutely everyone is better than me. I am the most superior at being inferior. ;-)
Posted by rnny on April 5, 2010, at 1:07:17
In reply to Re: please rephrase that again » rnny, posted by Dr. Bob on April 4, 2010, at 19:40:19
Willful,
My T told me to stay away from people with psychological problems to protect me from trying to get intimate with people who aren't whole enough to sustain the ups and downs of a friendship. But even before she said that, I would not have sought out people with psychological problems as people to form intimate friendships with. The reason I wouldn't have is because I have tried with several people who have serious mental illness and have found a common trait in all of them. An inability to behave in a way that doesn't drive others, including me, away. I have tried to befriend them by putting aside negative stigmas but have found them unable to attach in a productive way despite my giving them the benefit of the doubt. I can't say for sure that all people with psychological problems would be the same way, I can only go by those who have been or are in my sphere of life. When I refer to psychological problems I mean behaviors that don't make for a smooth connection. Such behaviors can take on a more subtle tone and as you spend time with the person, the behaviors become "obvious". Those behaviors would be getting to know someone and as you 'get' to know them, find them very narcistic. N's are destructive personalities and I would not seek out friendship with someone who has N traits. So yes, my T did say to stay away from people who aren't healthy mentally but even before she said that, I had my own standards for making friends. When you say you aren't close to anyone you don't really like, that is similar to what I am saying. If people with mental illness issues or subtle mental health issues were people I liked, I would want to be their friend. But as stated, my experience has been that such people are not capable of intimate friendship. And that is what I need right now. Like you, many people encounter others they don't initially connect with but can find a common bond with the person after the fact and even want to hang out with the person in time. To also clarify, I don't think the soul of people with mental issues are dripping with poison but I think there are some mental health issues that manifest themselves in ways that can be very destructive and hence "poison" those around them. I don't deem people with mental issues as unworthy of my friendship. I just have found the people with clearly defined mental illness have been incapable of making friends. I think you said it very clearly when you say that issues manifest themselves in ways that can be visible and disturbing but often can be under the surface. As to whether I agree with you that such underlying symptoms contribute to a relationship, it would depend on the person and what the symptom was. I had a negative view of myself before I sought treatment and still have a negative view of myself. I was raised by a woman who was a severely battered wife (my mother) and a father who tried to murder her several times and then abandoned us. She tried to kill herself and I found her when I was 12 years old. She was never able to carry out her role as a mother because she had a tremendous amount of inner turmoil that she took out on her children in the form of physical and verbal abuse. The impression I have of people with mental issues comes from being me. My siblings in their early 20's were very successful. On the other hand, I had a nervous breakdown and needed to be hospitalized. I have never forgiven myself for that and in many ways, my family hasn't forgotten it. So I include myself with the mentally ill people I distain. I have an advanced graduate professional degree that requires an approximate 3 day exam to be licensed. When I failed the exam 2 times I became severely depressed and couldn't function. I had been offered a good job in NYC and everything seemed to fall apart on the inside for me and I did not see it coming. This was after I accepted the position. Prior to that I only had the one other bout with depression and that was where I came to see myself as a mental case because I spent time in a mental institution. I was in one of the huge ones on Long Island that was closed down and there is a website now about "insane asylums" which has pictures of the day rooms, the hallways and other parts of the place. It hurts me to know I was a patient in that place when the site is clearly to attract the curious. So I am sorry I speak or have spoken harshly of the mentally ill. I have been around them all of my life because my own demons have reminded me that I am one of them. And I have been with me all of this time. PS- When I was in the hospital one of the patients was a psychiatrist and another was a psychiatric social worker. I used to go to them for help and they would try to help me but would also be telling me that they were there because they had problems too and that they might not be the best people to be asking questions of. rnny
Posted by floatingbridge on April 5, 2010, at 1:16:28
In reply to Re: please rephrase that again (Willful), posted by rnny on April 5, 2010, at 1:07:17
Posted by vwoolf on April 5, 2010, at 1:36:22
In reply to Re: please rephrase that again (Willful), posted by rnny on April 5, 2010, at 1:07:17
I feel very moved by your post - I'm sorry it's been so painful. I have had similar experiences to yours and know how these things cling to your sense of who you are. For what it's worth, my T also told me to avoid coming to websites 'like this'. That was seven years ago. I chose to ignore her. I know now that this website has been an important part of my therapy, and that if I had listened to her, I might not have managed to do the work I have. Take care, Rnny.
Posted by Sigismund on April 5, 2010, at 1:41:12
In reply to Re: please rephrase that again » Sigismund, posted by obsidian on April 4, 2010, at 23:51:25
> I would like to see the list of people starting from the best to the worst and also one indicating the most normal to the most abnormal.
Will it be one of those bell curves?
how skewed will I be?
everyone is better than me you know, it's >quite tiring to live in the world when absolutely everyone is better than me. I am the most superior at being inferior. ;-)Well (as you know) there is a ladder leading up to heaven with God at the top and the Archbishop of Canterbury highest here on earth and it's downhill after that :)
Posted by Sigismund on April 5, 2010, at 1:52:32
In reply to Re: please rephrase that again (Willful), posted by rnny on April 5, 2010, at 1:07:17
That was very moving, Rnny. Geez.
I like to think that within the limits of online interaction that it's possible to make real connections and that I've been able to do it sometimes.
I don't know....I live around people who accept that they are not normal....maybe that's just our thing, the whole community seems to accept that?
But narcissists? Well, it's the most interesting disorder in the DSM, the one I always turn to when I get my hands on it, and maybe reflective of our times?
Posted by Dinah on April 5, 2010, at 6:59:27
In reply to Re: please rephrase that again (Willful), posted by rnny on April 5, 2010, at 1:07:17
> So I include myself with the mentally ill people I distain.
That can't be a very comfortable way to feel. Do you think that trying to cultivate a generosity of spirit and acceptance of others might help you feel generously and accept yourself? Or that trying to cultivate a generosity of spirit and acceptance of yourself might help you feel generously and accept others?
I hesitate to say how picky I am about choosing friends because friendship isn't simply an either-or. There are many degrees of friendship, and I don't think I have a dividing line between friend and acquaintance. I try to enjoy people for whatever aspect of their character I find interesting or inspiring or amusing or whatever. And to not expect of them anything more than they are able to give. I try to trust with common sense. And even if I perhaps need to guard myself with people who aren't able to be what I might wish they could be to me, that doesn't mean I can't appreciate what they are. It doesn't mean that I would exclude them as friends.
Nor do I really have a cutoff between "mentally ill" and "not mentally ill". "Normal" people come with their own issues. If I find myself having to choose between the "normal" and the neurotic, I think I'd probably choose to be with the neurotic. The anxious, those who know what it means to be depressed.
I don't like what your therapist said at least in part because it wasn't a very supportive thing to say to someone who struggles themselves. Sure, you may be appealing and smart and trying hard. But so are many of the others your therapist wrote off as not worthy of being friends. That doesn't speak of the sort of generosity of spirit and acceptance I'd like to see in a therapist. And despite the outward compliment in it, there's a backhand insult in it as well. Does she tell others to avoid people with issues as well? People who might include you? If another therapist said the same thing to a client, wouldn't they be warning them off against you?
It would be inviting pain to expect more from anyone than they are able to give or to trust people more than they can be trusted. It would be a great loss to fail to value what those people *can* offer.
People are people. Whether they struggle with mental illness or not. I think what a lot of people in this thread and the other are saying is that those people can be enjoyed for the inherently valuable people they are. Everyone is, at their core, worthy of respect and caring. People with more serious mental illness. People who fall in the neurotic range of mental health issues. "Normal" people.
You.
Posted by obsidian on April 5, 2010, at 13:28:46
In reply to Re: please rephrase that again » obsidian, posted by Sigismund on April 5, 2010, at 1:41:12
> > I would like to see the list of people starting from the best to the worst and also one indicating the most normal to the most abnormal.
> Will it be one of those bell curves?
> how skewed will I be?
> everyone is better than me you know, it's >quite tiring to live in the world when absolutely everyone is better than me. I am the most superior at being inferior. ;-)
>
>
>
> Well (as you know) there is a ladder leading up to heaven with God at the top and the Archbishop of Canterbury highest here on earth and it's downhill after that :)lol, very funny :-)
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 6, 2010, at 1:01:52
In reply to Re: please rephrase that again (Willful), posted by rnny on April 5, 2010, at 1:07:17
> Willful, I was wondering if you think I come across as having alot of problems and I was wondering if you feel I am inferior to you. I want you to like me and am afraid maybe you don't.
Excellent, thank you. And thank you for saying more about yourself and your issues later.
> N's are destructive personalities and I would not seek out friendship with someone who has N traits.
But now we're starting over. Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others (including people with narcissistic traits) to feel accused or put down, could you please rephrase the above? Thanks,
Bob
Posted by rnny on April 6, 2010, at 4:55:28
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » rnny, posted by Dr. Bob on April 6, 2010, at 1:01:52
I have some relatives with narcisitic personality disorder and have been very hurt by them. But it would be very possible for me to meet someone with N, not even know it and find the person lovely. It doesn't mean because they have N that they would take it out on me.
Posted by BabyToes on April 6, 2010, at 9:37:13
In reply to Re: please rephrase that, posted by rnny on April 6, 2010, at 4:55:28
Hi Rnny,
I think you are making some very smart choices here. My experience online and in my real life is that I tend to be someone who is very open( I will talk to almost anyone) and it tends to attract people who are very needy. I tend to want to get too involved to help them, so I pure out tons of support. Which I am fine with to a point, as helping people feels good.
But in a real close friendship, you will sometimes need that support yourself and if that other person is only concerned with their needs, it leads to disappointment because you realize the relationship is only one sided. Friendship is a give and take thing and if you are the only one giving, it isn't really a friendship.
I have tons of people I talk to during class, between class, even socially at parties. But true friends where you can open up and be close to, well that is different. I have only a few select people that I am true friends with. They have offered me support when I needed it and I have given support when they needed it.
Now everyone has problems, but certain mental problems would prevent a real healthy friendships from developing. The healthier I get, the less I want to deal with destructive selfish behaviors from others in a beginning friendship. I don't exclude being social with people, but friendships are reserved to those who are capable of the give and take of one.
When you experience true friendship, you also realize how one sided T relationships are. I love my T, but I don't want to be her friend.
If a T relationship is the only one where one can feel they can show themselves or the only close relationship one feels they have, then they have so much more work to do. A T relationship is more about taking than giving. While it feels good to have someone there for you, it feels even better when it is a true friend where one has developed where you also give. A T is suppose to model a good healthy relationship for clients so they to learn how to be a friend. Hopefully the client learns this and applies this to their real life so they can have the most meaningful relationships.
It bothers me to see those in long term therapy who really don't have serious issues to warrant long time therapy, because it seems to me they are using the therapy relationship as a substitute relationship because they are unable to have a real relationship in the real world. I know of a few people who don't have any friends but have been in therapy for years. Therapy relationships feel good, so I don't fault the client, but I see problems with a T who can't send their clients on their way to have real relationship in the real world. Therapy relationships are not a good substitute for a real close friendship.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 6, 2010, at 15:07:39
In reply to Re: please rephrase that, posted by rnny on April 6, 2010, at 4:55:28
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]
Script revised: February 4, 2008
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