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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 34. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by pegasus on September 18, 2006, at 13:04:42
I have a phone session scheduled with my ex-T on Thursday! I'm quite nervous. I've worked really hard on what I want to talk about. But I can't control what he's going to say, so it could be good or bad. Basically I want to tell him the story of my therapy with him, and ask him to really hear and acknowledge what happened for me when he left so suddenly in the middle of it all. I would ideally want him to say that he's sorry. But I don't think there's much chance of that. But if he at least really hears and validates how hard it was for me, that'll be something. And if he still can't after all this time . . . well then I'll know it isn't ever going to happen.
He's been Mr. Boundary about this. His emails are all about the forms I need to fill out and how much it'll cost, and how he's willing to do it because I've talked about it with my therapist, etc., and how he'd like to know who she is, etc. He even referred to the session as "consulting", as in "I'd be happy to do a phone consult". Let's not imagine that this could be actual therapy, or that we have an actual relationship. There was none of the "it'll be good to talk to you" that I would have loved. I'm going to rename him Mr. Boundaries.
p
Posted by muffled on September 18, 2006, at 13:19:41
In reply to Session w/Ex-T on Thursday, posted by pegasus on September 18, 2006, at 13:04:42
I hope you keep your expectations WAY low.
You seem to be.
Think it'd be easier to get blood from a stone.
His boundaries seem to be HUGE.
Like he in defense mode.
Anyhow, that sh*t is about HIS own personal sh*t.
So don't let him get ya down Peg.
Good luck.
Muffled
Posted by sunnydays on September 18, 2006, at 14:05:12
In reply to Session w/Ex-T on Thursday, posted by pegasus on September 18, 2006, at 13:04:42
Good luck. The boundaries are there to protect them and us, but they can really hurt sometimes, can't they? I'll be thinking about you. Let us know how it goes, if you can.
(((((pegasus))))
sunnydays
Posted by daisym on September 18, 2006, at 16:22:42
In reply to Session w/Ex-T on Thursday, posted by pegasus on September 18, 2006, at 13:04:42
My therapist tells me that often it is harder for him when a client leaves therapy than it is for them. Especially a client he built a relationship with and cares about.
So maybe -- it was hard for your ex-therapist too? And maybe -- he is protecting his own feelings because the remorse and sadness about leaving you was probably painful.
He seems to be acting in a super careful way to not promise anything he can't follow through on. He doesn't want to hurt you again.
Good luck Thursday.
Posted by annierose on September 18, 2006, at 18:13:26
In reply to Session w/Ex-T on Thursday, posted by pegasus on September 18, 2006, at 13:04:42
I agree with everyone else.
Also - he knows you are currently in therapy with someone else so he doesn't want to step on her professional toes.
I think Daisy is right. He doesn't want to set you up to let you down. Our Ts carry the weight of our emotional lives. He is being cautious not to open paradora's box of transference ... just maybe?
Remind me, didn't your therapy end abruptly because he moved out of town?
Posted by orchid on September 18, 2006, at 19:41:22
In reply to Re: Session w/Ex-T on Thursday, posted by annierose on September 18, 2006, at 18:13:26
I wish he had been more humane :-) What is it with Ts who give more weightage to some arbitrary rules than the plain old life's basics like love and care and a little affection? Isn't that the best ethics of all?
Posted by sunnydays on September 18, 2006, at 20:15:53
In reply to What ethics?, posted by orchid on September 18, 2006, at 19:41:22
Yes, but in my opinion sometimes it is loving to keep to strict boundaries if one does it with good intentions, such as not hurting the client even more by opening up transference that you won't be able to help them work through.
sunnydays
Posted by orchid on September 18, 2006, at 21:27:36
In reply to Re: What ethics? » orchid, posted by sunnydays on September 18, 2006, at 20:15:53
I have believed that for quite some time, but time and again, I become convinced at the end, that nothing helps heal a patient like a little display of genuine love and affection and care. That is the only thing that really helps. Granted that overly affectionate behaviour is not warranted, but a little love and affection and care goes a long long way in healing.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 19, 2006, at 4:29:41
In reply to Re: What ethics? » sunnydays, posted by orchid on September 18, 2006, at 21:27:36
it can do...
but figuring out the best way to convey those things can be tricky.
one person might be okay with a hug.
might take those messages from a hug.
another person might NOT take that message from a hug.
or might take them from a hug at the time and later... derive another message entirely.i think boundaries are good.
where to set them can be tricky, however...
and how flexible to be can be tricky too...i suck at boundaries :-(
Posted by pegasus on September 19, 2006, at 9:06:04
In reply to Re: What ethics?, posted by alexandra_k on September 19, 2006, at 4:29:41
Yes, I agree with what everyone says, but most of all with what alexandra said about it being hard to find the exact right place to put the boundaries. I mean, sure, I don't want him to promise anything he can't give. And actually, I don't even want him to give any more than he seems to be planning to. (Although at one time I sure did.) But is it really outside the necessary protective boundaries to show a little feeling? I mean, something like "it's nice to hear from you". Does that really have much potential to lead me toward unrealistic expectations? Especially when it comes with all of the other boundary setting?
And besides, if showing me a little caring would be healing for me, then why is it necessarily better to keep to such strict boundaries that preclude any mention of caring? I mean, is preventing me from potentially developing new transferential hopes more important than helping me heal from real past wounds?
I hope not, 'cause that's what I'm planning to talk about on Thursday. I'm going to post my "story of therapy" that I wrote last weekend when I get a chance. I'm thinking I'll try to read it to him, by way of explaining how our ending affected me and what might help me heal now.
p
Posted by gardenergirl on September 19, 2006, at 11:10:25
In reply to Re: What ethics?, posted by pegasus on September 19, 2006, at 9:06:04
Hi Pegasus, btw. :) I hope it goes well.
I wonder about the healing power of caring and love from T's. I do know that it's healing to be unconditionally loved. I get that a lot from my favorite aunt and uncle, and I just soak it all up like a sponge when I visit.
But if it comes from a T---what do you do after termination? Who or what will fill that void? I wonder if that's part of why a T might withhold expressing caring and/or love for a client even if they do feel true caring.
Something for me to think about.
gg
Posted by pegasus on September 19, 2006, at 13:12:22
In reply to Re: What ethics? » pegasus, posted by gardenergirl on September 19, 2006, at 11:10:25
My understanding from reading *a lot* of literature about therapy terminations recently, is that the ideal situation is to have the client remain in therapy, receiving the "unconditional" positive regard from the therapist until they learn to internalize it and are ready to go on without the external support. At that point the termination becomes about normal saying goodbye stuff, instead of ripping away an external support that the client has come to rely on.
The problem is that so many therapies end for various reasons before the client gets there. So then the ripping away happens. But do you want to avoid letting the client learn how to do it internally, in order to avoid the potential damage of a premature therapy ending? Then you're losing so much of the potential of therapy at all, in my opinion.
My issue with this particular guy is that he wasn't able to let me process my ripping away feelings, possibly because of his own issues while my therapy was ending. He tried to pretend we were doing a normal termination, in which I had already internalized the good stuff. Which caused me a lot of damage. I'll explain my view on that later.
p
Posted by gardenergirl on September 19, 2006, at 14:34:37
In reply to Re: What ethics? » gardenergirl, posted by pegasus on September 19, 2006, at 13:12:22
>
> My issue with this particular guy is that he wasn't able to let me process my ripping away feelings, possibly because of his own issues while my therapy was ending. He tried to pretend we were doing a normal termination, in which I had already internalized the good stuff. Which caused me a lot of damage. I'll explain my view on that later.My T and I were just talking about this yesterday. He said (and has said many times before) that T's often do not process termination with clients because they are avoiding their own feelings about it. There's much less literature on the subject as well. And then he said that termination was "sucky". "Sucky on both sides". He's right. And it meant a lot to me to hear that "both sides" part.
I would hate to feel ripped away from therapy without dealing with the ending itself regardless of whether I felt ready to end. I'm sorry that happened to you and I hate that it happens to anyone. :(
gg
Posted by pegasus on September 19, 2006, at 19:12:41
In reply to Not Mr. Boundaries....Mr. BOUNDARIES » pegasus, posted by muffled on September 18, 2006, at 13:19:41
Thanks Muffy. I am trying to go in with relatively low expectations. But I guess I hope we'll accomplish something that will help me feel some closure. Even though he's being very boundaryful lately, I really think he'll be ok with my goals for this session. Unless he's changed a whole lot. I guess you never know about that. :(
p
Posted by pegasus on September 19, 2006, at 19:14:17
In reply to Re: Session w/Ex-T on Thursday » pegasus, posted by sunnydays on September 18, 2006, at 14:05:12
Thanks, sunny days, for the reminder that the boundaries are there for me too. You're right that it would hurt plenty if he acted all close and available again, and then later it turned out to be a bad idea and he had to back off (again).
But you're also right that it hurts. Bleh. Sometimes I wonder why I'm opening this can of worms again.
p
Posted by pegasus on September 19, 2006, at 19:18:55
In reply to Re: Session w/Ex-T on Thursday, posted by annierose on September 18, 2006, at 18:13:26
Yeah, you're right. There is another T involved. Although I tend to discount her because my unfinished business with this guy seems so HUGE compared to my held back relationship with my current T. I'm sure he is trying to keep in mind what type of relationship with him would be helpful vs. hurtful right now. I guess I don't really trust him to make that decision for me, though. Especially since he seems to think it was ok-ish for him to just move away in the middle of my therapy.
It didn't end totally abruptly. We had maybe 7 or 8 weekly sessions between when he told me he was leaving and our last session. But it sure felt abrupt, and I don't think we dealt well with those last several sessions.
p
Posted by pegasus on September 19, 2006, at 19:25:34
In reply to Re: Session w/Ex-T on Thursday » pegasus, posted by daisym on September 18, 2006, at 16:22:42
Hi Daisy,
I'm sure you're right that it was painful for him, too. I guess he was probably protecting himself. But I didn't get to see that during my last sessions with him. He just seemed to not get my pain, and to be defensive about it. That's part of what I want to ask him about. If it hurt him too, I want to know, because it means I was more important to him than it seemed at the time.
And you're right that he's probably trying hard not to set up expectations that would hurt me. Thanks for the reminder. Boy, I sure wish they could be upfront about that stuff. I think I'd get it if he told me that he was concerned about me having hope about reinstating a regular therapy with him, and that he didn't want to do that because it seemed likely to lead to me being hurt again. It's this acting cold with no hint that it's in my best interest that gets me. Then I just feel really rejected and worthless.
p
Posted by annierose on September 19, 2006, at 19:28:09
In reply to Re: Session w/Ex-T on Thursday » annierose, posted by pegasus on September 19, 2006, at 19:18:55
Seven or eight sessions does seem abrupt. I know I would need close to a year to say "good-bye" (again) to my therapist. And she reminds me that she'll give me all the time I need, that it's a process, and it will go in stages, that overlap, and regress, and move forward.
Yes, it did feel good when she said, "I'm excited to see you again." (or something close to that). It's interesting though, the few times I have tried to bring up our abrupt ending before I came back, I feel resistance on her part to talk about it. I'm the one who left in anger. She didn't push me away. And yet, when I bring up the subject, I feel a wall.
I'll be thinking about you on Thursday. I hope you won't be disappointed. I hope it doesn't open up a bigger hurt than the one you are already feeling. That is my worry.
Posted by pegasus on September 19, 2006, at 19:28:12
In reply to What ethics?, posted by orchid on September 18, 2006, at 19:41:22
I think it has to be such a delicate balance. But I think there's a warmer, more supportive way to walk the line than this guy is doing currently.
I should say, though, that he's been great over the years about accepting my continuing emails - being general supportive without encouraging continuing dependence. I always imagine that he's not at all sure what's the best thing for me when I email him. Thus he replies about half the time.
p
Posted by pegasus on September 19, 2006, at 19:47:04
In reply to Session w/Ex-T on Thursday, posted by pegasus on September 18, 2006, at 13:04:42
Ok, here's what I've been thinking about doing with my session on Thursday. First I'm going to tell him that I'd like to tell him the story of my therapy with him, and especially about the ending of it. When we were going through it, I didn't feel that what I was trying to communicate about that landed with him. So, I want to try again, and this time have him try really hard to hear and acknowledge my experience of that, and I'll try really hard to hear what he's saying. Then I'm going to make sure that he thinks he can do that. Otherwise, I think the conversation will be over right there.
Then, here's the story of my therapy that I might even just read to him so I don't forget any of it:
The Story of My Therapy
Before Therapy
Over the course of my life I have come to several conclusions that have created problems for me. One is that I profoundly do not matter. My needs, wants, interests, talents, experiences, feelings do not make any difference to anything. They are not worth considering. It was through this sense of not mattering that I developed a coping skill that involved self injury. Injuring myself was a way to make my pain seem like it counted – because it was physical injury which people usually pay attention to. While ironically, the self injury was acceptable to me because my pain from the injury didn’t count to me. I was a nothing, and fair game to use or abuse in any way that could make any difference.
(There was a positive side to this as well; I wanted to be a nothing. I could be invisible that way, and no one would hurt me, and I had a sense of control over being neglected.)
During Therapy
I’ve read a lot of research about attachment, and I can’t say that it’s completely clear to me how it happens, but somehow however it works it happened in my therapy with you. There was some magic black box with the right ingredients and what came out was a very profound attachment.
Through that attachment, and seeing that you wanted to know me, I started to see a way to learn to value myself. At least in therapy, what I thought and felt and wanted did matter. I developed a habit of grounding myself against your finding me important and interesting. Thinking of your attitude toward me helped keep me more steady when things were hard. I think I was starting to care about myself. I was definitely learning to ask who I was and start to see it, and eventually to communicate it. I started to learn how to verbalize my experiences.
This was work that was being done implicitly from my point of view. I was growing up in a way, and you were the parent of that process. I think the idea is that eventually I would have internalized your finding me important, and wouldn’t have needed you so much to get me there.
The Ending
When you announced that you were leaving, I experienced that as a message that I didn’t matter after all. My feelings, needs, wants, the process I was in the middle of, my experience of it . . . none of it counted. I put all of the lessons of my therapy into question.
I was losing my grounding, the ladder I was climbing up, the way I had found to become more healthy. Did I actually matter for a while there like it seemed? How could I not matter now? And yet there was that same old lesson. You were leaving regardless of what my feelings or needs were. So, my feelings and needs suddenly didn’t count to the person who was teaching me that they could count.
And it wasn’t just the fact that you were leaving when I needed you to stay. It was also the way that our goal became making the “good goodbye” that you described – a very adult goodbye. I had HUGE other needs that I couldn’t figure out what to do with. I tried in a sort of panic to explain what was happening for me, through emails, and a lot of thrashing around in therapy. Because there was still that part of me that had learned that my stuff could matter, at least in my therapy.
At the same time the adult part of me recognized, and heard you telling me, that this was just part of life, and part of what I needed to learn to handle better in my life. That was very confusing. I needed to be adult and cope with it all reasonably, and I also needed my angry and hurt and afraid feelings to matter. I needed help making sense out of it all.
It wasn’t good enough to just say and write the younger unruly part. I needed to feel that it landed with you. That it was ok for me to also feel the inconvenient, unpopular, difficult stuff. If that stuff was ok, then maybe it could have seemed more like I still counted. But I didn’t feel that. Maybe you were in a place where you couldn’t hear and acknowledge my stuff for your own reasons. Maybe my need and doubt were so big that I couldn’t feel your holding it no matter what you said.
Whatever happened, it was a howling, raging pain. It still is. And I don’t think you ever accepted how big it was.
Afterward
I tried to find another therapist, but couldn’t find that same sense of grounding, of wanting emulate someone into a more healthy way of being. At first I could barely stand to talk to anyone else at all. I left T2 basically because she wasn’t you and I couldn’t stand it.
Even after finding T3, who feels comfortable, the magic of attachment hasn’t happened. It hasn’t mattered to me that she seems to find value in me. It doesn’t make me value myself. I just think she’s mistaken. Or irrelevant. Somehow that process is still linked to you for me. So, when you don’t reply to my emails, or just now when you hesitated to agree to talk to me, I feel like the big nothing I always have been. Sometimes I profoundly believe that I don’t really matter. Oh, I know, everyone matters blah, blah, blah. But underneath that intellectualization of it, I’m pretty certain it doesn’t apply to me. And sometimes I still feel bits of being important. So it’s still pretty confusing. I don’t know whether my work with T3 is helping that part of the problem.
With T3, it’s like I’ve found a foster parent, and I’m glad she’s there. We’ve done some good work, and it’s much better than not having had her. But she’s not the real deal; The real deal won’t have much to do with me anymore. I still ground against the memory of your way of being with me. But that’s fading, and what do I do when it’s gone? Back to where I was before?
Why Now?
My recent experiences at work are another example of the folly of believing that I matter. There was an illusion that I was valuable, but then in one week it completely fell apart. It’s clear that I’m not important there. My feelings, interests, needs, wants, experience, knowledge, what I’m good at . . . none of it mattered. Just whether I could work full time and travel. Same lesson as when you left. If I’m convenient, then I count a little, but when something else comes up, I’m very ditchable.
One of the big experiences from when I was a kid that this links to is when I was in the hospital. I was really sick, but I don’t remember being sick. I remember being alone and confused, and crying for my mother, and wanting to be held by her. I remember no one being there.
T3 says that it is significant that I was in the hospital when I was 2, and you left after 2 years of therapy, and now I’ve been working with her for about 2 years. And that age is when one moves into being verbal. So, I’m dealing with a lot of preverbal stuff. I’m not sure about the 2 year connection. But . . . sure, there’s a fair bit of stuff around this that I just can’t verbalize, despite all of these words.
What Now?
So, what do I do now? Try to feel lucky that I have T3, and give up the promise that was once there in therapy for me? Try to find that magic again? How? Is it even possible? Try to convince you to let me stay connected to you in some minimal way? Any ideas?
Posted by TherapyGirl on September 19, 2006, at 20:11:09
In reply to The story of my therapy (really long), posted by pegasus on September 19, 2006, at 19:47:04
I am nearly speechless. What an excellent, excellent, perfect job you did with this, Pegasus.
I hope you (finally) get what you need from him. I'll be thinking about you on Thursday and waiting to hear how it goes.
Posted by frida on September 19, 2006, at 20:49:50
In reply to Re: The story of my therapy (really long) » pegasus, posted by TherapyGirl on September 19, 2006, at 20:11:09
Dear Pegasus,
Your writing is so moving and powerful..so full of pain.
It is so from your heart. It makes me feel your pain.
Safest hugs to you - I'll be thinking of you on Thursday.. I do hope he responds to you the way you deserve, after sharing your heart the way you have in this writing.support to you
Frida
Posted by Daisym on September 19, 2006, at 21:57:31
In reply to The story of my therapy (really long), posted by pegasus on September 19, 2006, at 19:47:04
Beautifully written, Peg and it brings up so much old stuff for me too. Attachment is about the right chemistry and it is magic. My therapist tells me often that not everyone "gets" to have such an intense experience.
Do you think it would be helpful to email him what you've written ahead of time, so that you won't spend your time with him reading, but rather discussing these feelings? Just a thought...
I hope you find what you are looking for. And I absolutely love the analogy of the foster parent -- yes -- it makes so much sense.
Posted by annierose on September 19, 2006, at 22:20:59
In reply to Re: The story of my therapy (really long) » pegasus, posted by Daisym on September 19, 2006, at 21:57:31
Excellent idea daisy! E-mailing him the letter before the phone call gives you more time to talk about the feelings generated in the letter. Does a part of you fear his reaction to the letter? i.e. if he reads the letter first, he'll back out of the phone session?
Your letter makes perfect sense. It must feel good having written it all out. Well done. Have you shared this with T3?
The 2nd year connection is interesting too. The brain is an amazing muscle. It remembers so much. Too much (?).
Posted by pegasus on September 20, 2006, at 13:02:03
In reply to The story of my therapy (really long), posted by pegasus on September 19, 2006, at 19:47:04
Don't have much time to post, but I wanted to thank everyone so much for all of the support. It does make this whole process easier, and gives me courage for however it turns out.
I did share this with my current T last session, and I'm sure we're going to talk about it more.
My ex-T is no good at email, and my history with him after giving him stuff to read makes me think it's better to read it to him in the session. But otherwise I'd agree about sending it ahead of time.
I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow. I have a session w/ ex-T at 10:00 then one with current T at 1:30. I'll be flattened by end of day.
p
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