![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 33 to 57 of 61. Go back in thread:
Posted by orchid on October 17, 2005, at 13:15:49
In reply to Re: Ok I give up !!! » orchid, posted by JenStar on October 14, 2005, at 22:22:25
Thanks JS.
You are right, I am a s/w engineer, and work under very tight timelines most of the times. So I always look for making things work faster. :-)
Posted by orchid on October 17, 2005, at 14:21:05
In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? » orchid, posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 0:21:15
Hi Daisy,
I reread my post today, and can see how it must have sounded like criticizing.
Sorry about that !!
I don't disapprove of your T. Never. I always liked him. As far as his encouraging your dependancy, I used to sometimes think that maybe it is not good for you. Especially because my two therapists have always said that I have to help myself and didn't allow any dependancy. But I suffered anyway with dependancy issues even if they didn't encourage it. So I came to the conclusion that it doens't really matter that much if they encourage it or discourage it. So I thought it is great that your therapist openly allows it and talks about it. And that it might really help you.
But seeing you continue to suffer intensely makes me question every now and then why it doesn't get better soon for you - especially since your T has great understanding capacity. I have actually read all of your threads in detail and have really wondered many times what could be of help to you.
That is why I thought, maybe he is focussing too much on allowing your feelings, and getting your feelings expressed and examining its root cause, and maybe lacks a little bit in helping you overcome the feelings. That was my post all about.
I read your response today, that he really doesn't want you to over come these feelings, but wants you to examine them more carefully. I think it is good in a way, in that, you probably in the long run will emerge to be a solid well-rounded personality.
But there is also the fact that you are suffering too much NOW.
For instance, if a person is suffering from chronic disease, which will get cured only in the long term, then a physician needs to focus on two things. 1. Long term cure. 2. Short term management of pain or other problem from the disease. The physician should prescribe adequate pain killers or other short term treatments in addition to long term treatments. We cannot let the patient suffer in the short term, and aim only for long term cure (which hypotehcially, let us say, might take years).
That was my only concern. I am sure of the quality of your theraist. I have no doubts about that. But for this to fully work for you, I think it might take years for you. And that is as you said, is fine, because somethings just take as long as it takes. But there might be ways to manage the pain effectively in the short term, and perhaps even, trying EMDR or visualization techniqes might even faster your recovery. EMDR these days has been really proven to much lessen the effects of trauma. It might be worth a try - or atleast asking your therapist about it. Even great therapists sometimes, miss one or two points. There is no harm in asking or exploring all possible avenues.
Regarding the dependancy, I do have some reservations atleast every now and then, and think maybe it is not that good for you. The reason I think like that is, I wonder if human beings can really differentiate at a deep level between therapeutic caring, and being cared for by a close friend/husband/boy friend. I tend to think, that it is practically impossible for a woman to differentiate the caring that she recieves from her therapist from any caring she might receive from a boyfriend or husband. And you will consequently develop the same longings/need for physical closeness that you would develop with a normal association with a boyfriend/husband. And allowing and encouraging one (emotional closeness), but refusing the other (physical contact and intimacy), is going to be very frustrating for any human being to comprehend at an emotional level. At a logical level, you might be capable of understanding that. But I wonder if our emotions can listen to that logic. And the relationship is meant to fail in a physical way. He can never pursue a relationship with you. And he has a family ( I think you have said his wife even works in the same office and you run into her sometimes ). I wonder how that is going to impact you. It is extremely hard for any woman to understand and grasp that and make peace with it. IT is practically going against human nature. IT doesn't work that way with emotions.
This is to the best of my understanding.
I know of course that I might be totally wrong. And what your therapist is doing is perhaps the best way of treating you.
But you are so intensely hurting so much. Allowing the feelings is fine if the feelings are pleasant and bearable, but if the feelings are unbearable and cause you intense hurting, I wonder what is the value in just allowing you to experience it? Espeically in terms of years? If it is for few months, I can see the point in short term pain and long term gain. But life is really not that long to afford several years of intense pain in the hope of spending the rest of your life in peace. It never works that way with life. If you spend years in intense pain hoping for a final peaceful day, then there might be some other more painful issue that might emerge at that time (maybe something not totally related to therapy - like some physical illness or something like that), which might cause you to continue to suffer. So it is really not worth spending many years in pursuit of a peaceful day which might be years away. There should also be focus on the current moment, and making you happier in today or tomorrow, rather than just years down the line.
Please forgive me if I said too much. I am not criticizing here. If it is not obvious from my post above, I care very deeply about you. I have really thought quite a bit about you, and have followed your history in detail over the years, and I don't want to pass up the chance to help you, even if my views are controversial and may not be to your liking. I always think a good way to care about a person is to give the right suggestion, whether it is likeable or not.
Please do ignore my long post, if it is not right. It is my opinion only.
Posted by antigua on October 17, 2005, at 18:28:11
In reply to For Daisy - (Very Long) » daisym, posted by orchid on October 17, 2005, at 14:21:05
Sorry, Daisy, I don't mean to hijack your thread..
Orchid, your comments to Daisy were very interesting. It makes me wonder what you must think of me? I've been slogging through this for 14 years in psychodynamic therapy with the same T. It has been very painful, but I've learned so much about myself and I have a wonderful life because of it, for her help in helping me to understand where my reactions and pain are coming from.
But we are still working our way to the core. I know I'm closer but still not there, but that doesn't negate all the years of effort I've put into this. In a way, you sound a lot like my husband in his inability to understand/believe that I have to do this so the rest of my life will be better. And I don't care if it's one day, one week, or just a month, but if I can resolve this, I will have a whole me. I don't think I can explain it to you. Your comments seem to have a "just get over it" sort of mentality, like my husband's, which shows a sincere lack of understanding, not because you don't want to understand, but that you are incapable of understanding the feelings associated. Please don't misunderstand -- thank god there is that lack of understanding. I wouldn't wish one second of this on another person.
I haven't meant to offend you at all, so I hope you don't take it that way.
best,
antigua
Posted by antigua on October 17, 2005, at 18:35:03
In reply to P-docs?, posted by muffled on October 16, 2005, at 15:53:19
I lost my last Pdoc unexpectedly when the guy retired and moved away w/o informing his patients. He did discuss it w/his regular patients, so I can forgive him, but it still was an abandonment I didn't need. I really liked him; he couldn't help but do therapy as he dispensed the meds.
I will stick w/his replacement, because he was recommended, but he's a young, no therapy kind of guy and he seems more interested in the "business" of what he does rather than caring for the patients (He has his phone call/internet charges down to a science!)
But the purpose of my email was to give you a heads up. I had to fill out this enormous questionaire for the new guy (which he barely referred to) that triggered me a lot. Too many personal questions w/o his knowing me. My T flipped at his callousness, but since new guy is really a psychopharmacologist (sp??)I don't care because that's all I'm going to use him for. I don't do well w/more than one T at a time anyway.
best,
antigua
Posted by orchid on October 17, 2005, at 18:44:32
In reply to Reply to Orchid, posted by antigua on October 17, 2005, at 18:28:11
I think I have managed to convey a wrong impression yet again.
I am not against long term therapy. Neither am I against the need to work out things fully. And I am not against even life time therapy if needed.
All I was trying to say is -
In addition to long term integration of feelings through talk therapy, try alternative methods of reducing pain like EMDR, visualization, meditation etc. And that also, only IN ADDITION to long term therapy - so that you get benefits in the short term as well as in the long term.
In other words, do some sort of short term pain management in addition to long term cure. I am NOT AGAINST long term cure.
I hope that makes it clear.
Posted by antigua on October 17, 2005, at 18:50:50
In reply to Re: Reply to Orchid » antigua, posted by orchid on October 17, 2005, at 18:44:32
Posted by frida on October 18, 2005, at 8:39:58
In reply to Re: Reply to Orchid » antigua, posted by orchid on October 17, 2005, at 18:44:32
Hi..
just felt like saying something, even if it doesn't make much sense and it comes out of the blue.I've been with my T for some years now and it took me a long, long time to trust- and now, after a long time I am finally telling her some and we're going to the depths of what happened to me. She wants to go to the depths of it all, and tells me I have to let all that out of me..all the rest is warm comfort and temporary relief, but as I've seen through the years, it keeps coming back to me and interfering with my life and hurting me deeply, over and over-
as painful as it is, I do need to let it out, every bit of it....and it takes time.
She tells me and I totally agree, that I was abused for more than 14 years without a break- It's a long long time- and a lot to heal from.
I was taught from an early age many things about myself that are difficult to unroot because when I learnt them my foundations weren't even strong to begin with. If you learn since you are 4 or even less, that you are dirt, and unlovable, it is very hard to get at those beliefs and change them.
i believe, that unfortunately, it is long, long work and painful and going deep into all of that is painful, horrible and brings a lot of suffering...but it is worse to keep those feelings and horrible stuff inside forever.
I tried the other approach of trying to find temporary relief and it didn't work well-
Now, that I'm telling a bit, I do feel relieved to break the silence and isolation, even though I'm crying and hurting so much.
it takes a long time-
and validation of feelings, going deep, breaking the isolation and secrecy, telling again and again, not being alone as we were back then..it is so important. Just learning to trust somenone else takes a long long time after your trust has been shattered for years.(((((Daisy)))))
Sending you support and understanding
Frida
Posted by daisym on October 18, 2005, at 12:31:34
In reply to Re: Reply to Orchid, posted by frida on October 18, 2005, at 8:39:58
I think that so much of this has to do with my mother...I wanted her to see, to feel my hurt and to rescue me. I wanted her to hold me and comfort me and tell me how to care for the parts that hurt that I didn't even know could hurt. I wanted someone to make sense out of the confusion.
Now I want that from my therapist. I want him to see and to feel my hurt. And the only way I can do that is to keep saying it out loud, and when I can't say it out loud, I demonstrate in so many other ways that I'm hurting. And he tells me that I need a network, a group around me to help me when I can't pull myself up and out of it.
But I don't want that. (OK, sometimes I want that. I think I use the board for that kind of support.) I want HIM to hear me and see all this pain. And I'm now sure it is because I wanted HER and only HER...or especially HER to see that I was suffering.
So I'm beginning to think that the reason I'm resisting medications (though I'm now using them) and resisting the care of my friends and resisting sleeping is because the one thing I want, the think I need, is for her to see that her little girl is suffering. Does that mean she will see that I'm not perfect? Can I risk that? I think that the depths of this despair indicate how big I think the pain has to be in order to get her to notice.
And I hold out no hope that she ever will. So I cling to my therapist noticing and the minute I think he is wavering, changing his attention to something else (other clients, his vacation) I try to pull in and instead the pain gains strength and volume again.
The hardest part is recognizing all of this and doing it anyway. :(
Posted by rs on October 18, 2005, at 15:59:13
In reply to Re: Reply to Orchid, posted by daisym on October 18, 2005, at 12:31:34
Daisy what a honest and brave post. I could of written that. Sorry for jumping in. Just really hit here.
Safe hugs if ok
Posted by Tamar on October 19, 2005, at 17:09:48
In reply to Re: Reply to Orchid, posted by daisym on October 18, 2005, at 12:31:34
Oh Daisy, I’m sorry it’s so painful… but what an incredibly brave post.
Your insight in the midst of your suffering is amazing. You really are an incredible person. It’s hard… and you’ve come such a long way already, though I know you don’t always feel it. I’m just so impressed at your ability to keep working through it all.
Tamar
Posted by fairywings on October 19, 2005, at 20:30:47
In reply to Re: Reply to Orchid, posted by daisym on October 18, 2005, at 12:31:34
I agree that post was not only brave, but it was enlightening to hear what the relationship represents to you, and the hurt that you feel so intensely. I"m so sorry your mom doesn't see your pain and respond to you.
(((hugs)))
fw
Posted by orchid on October 19, 2005, at 20:38:07
In reply to Re: Reply to Orchid, posted by daisym on October 18, 2005, at 12:31:34
Your post was so powerful.
It is very painful to know the suffering that you have gone through.
(((Daisy)))
Posted by allisonross on October 20, 2005, at 8:25:53
In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings » daisym, posted by happyflower on October 14, 2005, at 21:39:23
I know how you feel. My T hugged me for a year, then stopped, because he said..he didn't mind hugging old people or kids, but he "didn't want it to feel too good." Obviously, it did.
Posted by Dinah on October 20, 2005, at 8:39:22
In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings, posted by allisonross on October 20, 2005, at 8:25:53
iiccckkkk
How did you feel when he said that? I'd have felt really really grossed out.
I think that's definitely a case of too much therapist disclosure.
Posted by allisonross on October 20, 2005, at 12:20:29
In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings » allisonross, posted by Dinah on October 20, 2005, at 8:39:22
Hi, Dinah: No, of course not. I was not grossed out. He needed to explain to me why he was doing this, and he chose (one of my favorite words he taught me/authenticity)....to be authentic.....with me. I was a little surprised he was so forthcoming, but I admire that....in anyone. We have a fabulous relationship, in that we feel that we can discuss ANYTHING, and I think that is what it is all....supposed to be about? Being real....Smiles, Alice
Posted by Dinah on October 20, 2005, at 15:39:23
In reply to Re: Reply to Dinah/Not grossed out, posted by allisonross on October 20, 2005, at 12:20:29
We must be at different stages in our development. :)
My therapist is pretty authentic, but thank heavens has never said anything to indicate he sees me as a woman. I draw my own boundaries there.
Posted by Poet on October 22, 2005, at 12:01:55
In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings, posted by daisym on October 14, 2005, at 10:45:02
Daisy,
I would break my boundary rule and hold you. I can't be your mother. I can't be your therapist. I wish the people who you need physical hugs from could do it, you deserve hugs, not hurt feelings.
What I want from my mother is an apology for allowing her son to abuse me. Even if she didn't know about everything, she knew damn well his emotional abuse. She heard it. I think your needing hugs from your mother is like my needing an apology. It can't erase what happened, but maybe it would allow me to stop bashing myself and blaming myself.
My T keeps telling me I need to apologize to myself for blaming myself for the bad things. That my mother won't apologize to me because she will never recognize the harm her baby boy caused. My T says she can apologize to me for all the abuse and would have *gotten me out of there* but it's really me who who needs to forgive myself.
Daisy, hold yourself tight. Cross your arms over your solar plexis and hug yourself. I apologize to myself for blaming myself. I'll keep apologizing and try not to bash myself. Keep hugging yourself.
Poet
Posted by daisym on October 22, 2005, at 19:13:31
In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings » daisym, posted by Poet on October 22, 2005, at 12:01:55
Thanks Poet. It really helps to know that there are people that know how to just hold and not hurt. I feel your holding all the way up here.
It is such a primal thing -- this wanting and needing of our moms. It isn't like it would change what happened, but maybe it would help me to forgive myself if she did? I don't know.
I've been thinking about this idea of physical nurturing. I don't think it really would matter if my therapist would hug or hold me because that isn't what the yearning is really for. It might satiate it for a while, but I suspect it would come roaring back even louder to make sure I pay attention to what this is really about.
One of my friends had a baby girl this week. I held her at 20 hours old and gently rocked her and cried my eyes out. Everyone thought I was mourning not having a daughter...I think I was mourning my innocence.
Posted by 10derHeart on October 22, 2005, at 21:05:20
In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings » Poet, posted by daisym on October 22, 2005, at 19:13:31
>I think I was mourning my innocence.
((Daisy)) This sentence made me instantly cry. And it's so strange...I also got to hold TWO babies less than 2 weeks old this week...I loved it.
And you are probably so right. That's one of those things that seems beautiful and awful, all at once.
Maybe....just maybe...your healing is like a big bucket, getting filled with lovely, clean, spring water. When you and your T. do hard work together, cupfulls are dumped in. When you grieve and think and hurt on your own...more cupfulls, then, too. Other things...like holding this baby and allowing the tears...I think that also helps fill the bucket.
One day, Daisy, I am sure this healing bucket I'm imagining will be so full to the brim, why, you won't even be able to lift it....:-)
Posted by gardenergirl on October 22, 2005, at 23:12:44
In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings » Poet, posted by daisym on October 22, 2005, at 19:13:31
> Everyone thought I was mourning not having a daughter...I think I was mourning my innocence.
((((daisy))))gg
Posted by daisym on October 23, 2005, at 0:43:27
In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings » daisym, posted by 10derHeart on October 22, 2005, at 21:05:20
Thanks Tender, what a lovely image. I'll try to keep that in mind when I cry.
Babies touch something deep in my soul, always have. I think they even smell like all the good stuff in the world wrapped up in a blanket. At least after a bath! :) Makes me want one more...
OK, not really. But I just glanced over at my "baby" stretch out asleep on the couch and I marvel at how big he is and so independent. *sigh* Maybe I need a kitten?
Posted by daisym on October 23, 2005, at 0:44:39
In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings » daisym, posted by gardenergirl on October 22, 2005, at 23:12:44
Thanks for the hug, GG. I know you know what I mean about moms. (I've missed you, btw.)
Take good care.
Daisy
Posted by gardenergirl on October 23, 2005, at 1:21:08
In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings » gardenergirl, posted by daisym on October 23, 2005, at 0:44:39
Hopefully I will have a bit more time in the coming weeks.
gg
Posted by Annierose on October 23, 2005, at 7:27:57
In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings » Poet, posted by daisym on October 22, 2005, at 19:13:31
This post resonated with me as well. My daughter and I were having a conversation last night about babies. We were snuggling at bedtime and I said, "I imagine when you are an adult, you may become a pediatrician because you are so natural with babies and toddlers." She looked puzzled, "Mom, all people like babies. Who wouldn't want to hold one?" "Well, I'm not too comfortable with babies." "Oh, mom seriously, of course you are, look at me, you loved me as a baby. And my brother."
After I left her room, I couldn't stop thinking about this seemingly innocent conversation. Your words about mourning your innocence struck me. For me, it's maybe more of giving somebody something I wasn't given myself. I'm not sure how to do it. There's no frame of reference in my psyche, so I have to create it.
(((( Dasiy )))) I think 10der was right. Maybe it's a part of the healing. You recognize that hole inside your heart and that is so sad.
Mom stuff is so hard. Dad stuff is hard too. Heck, it's all so painful. But I'm so happy that now I have a glimpse of what an emotional secure mom gives her children. I keep thinking the attachment, dependency, the love I get from my therapist, must be the type of love my children feel for me ... if I'm doing it right. (Awkward thought + sentence).
Posted by Dinah on October 23, 2005, at 9:55:17
In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings » daisym, posted by Annierose on October 23, 2005, at 7:27:57
Annierose, that was a beautiful gift your daughter gave you. And of course a beautiful gift you gave your daughter.
What you said really struck me. I have always wanted to be able to give to my son the same things that therapy gave me. I think at it's best, therapy can teach us what being a good parent means.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.