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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by marshak on August 3, 2004, at 15:33:21
In reply to Re: I did the Hoffman process, posted by Newcomer on August 3, 2004, at 15:08:36
It was quite an ordeal that I'm still digging my way out of. I'd be happy to tell you ALL about it, including all the activities we did. I do not feel protective about revealing their methods. That may be better to do off-list, but I am not sure how to write to someone off-list here.
The process seemed to tear away my ego (ie: coping skills) so violently there was nothing left to hang onto when I got back home. I couldn't work or function, and was a crying mess. BUT, my experience is VERY unusual I hear, & I would love to find some people who had a disastrous experience with the process like I had. They SAY they are putting you back together again, but it did not happen for me.
> That sounds like a real ordeal you went through. I was very keen to do the process last year but decided not to because it isn't something you can just try for a few hours then decide whether it's right for you. My worry was always that I would be overwhelmed by it and fall apart, in which case, would they be able to put me back together again?
>
> I'm having some personal turmoil right now and strangely, was thinking today for the first time in ages that maybe I should have a rethink about doing it. I guess your posting is a sign for me not to. Can I ask you how it took away your coping skills?
Posted by Newcomer on August 4, 2004, at 6:28:02
In reply to Re: I did the Hoffman process, posted by marshak on August 3, 2004, at 15:33:21
That's awful, seems like you're doing your best to get through it. I can't remember where, but I heard of someone else who had similar problems, not as bad as you though. It's something I'll have to rule out for myself, even mainstream therapy had a profound negative effect on me when I first started it and I was barely able to function for a while.
Take care.
Posted by HazelMae on November 17, 2004, at 8:17:24
In reply to Re: I did the Hoffman process, posted by marshak on August 3, 2004, at 13:36:03
Hello Marshak,
I am interested in the Hoffman Process but have some very serious misgivings. You indicated a willingness to speak more about your experience with it, and I was hoping you could help me see the possible shortcomings of the process. There seem to be a lot of people willing to talk about the benefits of the program.
Thanks.
Posted by alecar on May 20, 2005, at 9:43:55
In reply to Love with therapist « Stamper, posted by Dr. Bob on November 6, 2002, at 7:52:52
I am really, really, attracted to my therapist. He is smart, good-looking, and yes he does make me feel safe. I have told him how I feel, but he says he can't be with me because it would not be ethical. Shouldn't the choice of relationship be between us. I'm not a kid. I'm not a threat to him or myself. All we do is shoot the breeze.
It makes me mad I can't explore the possiblity of his being my soulmate because we met under the context of therapy. I wish we could do what we wanted!!!
Posted by pegasus on May 20, 2005, at 16:30:32
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by alecar on May 20, 2005, at 9:43:55
Yes this is a common feeling around here. Keep in mind, though, that it's not just an arbitrary, external rule that therapists shouldn't get involved with their clients. It's because of the nature of the therapy relationship, which is not balanced like romantic relationships should be. You therapist has a lot more power in the relationship than you do, because you're the one talking about your life. Also, therapists do tend to inspire these types of feelings, because of their role in therapy, which is different than a role as a partner. If you developed a romantic relationship, that dynamic would almost inevitably be dragged in, creating a very unhealthy scenario for you. That's why it's considered unethical, in a nutshell.
I'd really recommend that you read "In Session", which is all about these types of longings and other issues that come up with therapist-client relationships. We're actually in the middle of a psychobabble book discussion on that book, if you'd like to check out that thread.
good luck
pegasus
Posted by Tamar on May 20, 2005, at 17:16:41
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by alecar on May 20, 2005, at 9:43:55
I’m familiar with those feelings of attraction! I was very attracted to my therapist too (I still think he’s attractive, but I’ve finished therapy now).
The ethical prohibition on relationships between therapists and clients can feel harsh and unfair and paternalistic. But it’s necessary to prevent clients from getting seriously hurt. If therapy leads to romantic or sexual contact between the therapist and the client, it usually ends in tears because there are all sorts of complicated dynamics going on in therapy (like transference).
Can you keep talking about it with your T? It’s a horrible feeling to be so attracted with no hope of reciprocation, but it should get easier if you can talk it through.
Posted by Susan47 on May 20, 2005, at 18:48:13
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by alecar on May 20, 2005, at 9:43:55
Okay, that's just really weird. Why do you think your therapist wants to be with you? Why doesn't he just out and out say, I'm not attracted to you that way, or, (and this should actually be written IN STONE, it should be a requirement of therapy that clients see this at the very beginning of therapy, and sign that they've been adequately informed) "In therapy, a client commonly has feelings of love and sometimes other types of feelings, towards the therapist...." and other stuff, like, the therapist believes it's best to allow the feelins to surface and to talk about them. To stress the importance of the ability to talk about these issues, on both sides, and that eventually the client can expect his or her feelings towards the therapist to change, but in the meantime to remember that there can be absolutely no outside contact between therapist and client, it's unethical in the profession...blah blah blah whatever has to be said, whatever way it's done, to adequately prepare us for what May come ... but you know, some fool would challenge that, as in, that's the power of suggestion, it's leading the potential client on, no you can't take that risk.
Whatever.
The ethics of therapy has a long way to go.
Posted by Susan47 on May 20, 2005, at 19:16:02
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by alecar on May 20, 2005, at 9:43:55
The desire to be loved back, in return, is so unbelievably strong. It's intensity is fierce, and even today the thought that he might have loved me back makes me tremble, just shake, and then the physical pain in my arms and shoulders comes. I loved him so much. It's just unbelievable how I felt about him. Lonely and frightening, and unbelievably intense, and the only thing that assuaged me at all, was being able to use the telephone. The phone, it was my lifeline, and he used it as a threat, a weapon. Don't phone me anymore. Don't come by. You may write letters, and even though I say I will answer your questions, I will only choose to answer those that I wish, and I do not guarantee you my honesty. Remember, I am not the one with the need for a therapist.
And when the worst of it comes, when you need me the most, that is the time I will choose to draw away from you, and I will not do it gradually. I will do it quickly, fiercely, yet lightly, for this can have no importance to me. I will diminish you in five seconds. Because I choose. I am the master. I.
Best Wishes.
your therapist
Posted by pinkeye on May 20, 2005, at 19:33:05
In reply to Re: Love with therapist » alecar, posted by Susan47 on May 20, 2005, at 19:16:02
Don't try to make your T a villain. You know he is not. It is not serving any good purpose - neither for you nor for him.
He didn't intend to hurt you. And if he has intended that, he wouldn't have gone into this profession in the first place.
He perhaps made a mistake.. many therapists do, and it hurts the client, but don't make out more of it than what it is.
I think if you develop this attitude more, it is going to be incredibly hard for you to heal well. You are always going to be very bitter and angry, and you don't want to have those feelings towards the one person who tried to help you.
My 2 cents.
Posted by Jazzed on May 20, 2005, at 21:27:36
In reply to Re: therapist revelations » Newcomer, posted by fallsfall on August 21, 2003, at 14:50:20
> That sounds like it was difficult. I would think that you would also have the option of seeing a different therapist to work it through. I had a painful transference, and my therapist didn't seem to understand what was happening. I switched therapists, and very quickly (6 weeks and again today - 2 months) I had the same transference with him. The difference is that he is a Psychodynamic therapist - they "do" transference, where as my old therapist was CBT. I'm not saying CBT therapists can't do transference, but it is not their focus like it is for the Psychodynamic therapists. What kind of therapy was your therapist doing?
>
> My only other comment is that they can't help if they don't know what is going on. Somehow (and this can be really hard) you have to find a way to trust them.
>
> Good luck. This stuff is really hard.I don't know where I read it, but I read somewhere on the web, I think, that the faster you develop transference, the more likly you are to be diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder. I develop them really quickly too,and I fall in love, but I'd deny the heck out of it to a T, at least until an adequate amount of time had passed. ARGH!!! I think what it is for me is that they seem so "normal", so smart, so level headed, and of course, they listen to EVERYTHING we say! Like the perfect husband! My husband has all of those attributes, except I don't have his undivided attention. With four kids, and we're all ADD, how could I expect that, but to his credit, he doesn't work 12 hour days like the shrink!
Jazzed
Posted by Jazzed on May 20, 2005, at 21:34:16
In reply to Re: therapist revelations » Newcomer, posted by fallsfall on August 21, 2003, at 19:07:54
> >
> When I was looking for my new therapist, I interviewed a number of people. I asked one whether, since my transference was for my mother, I should choose a man or woman. He said "Choose a good therapist". He was the therapist I chose. I find it really interesting that the transference I have now is for my dad - not my mother. He has said that it really doesn't matter what the sex of the therapist is - that the transference will occur anyway.
>
I've had male and female T's and never had transference with a female T, but always with the male T's. With the females I've always just felt they were there for insight, and they always did have great insight, but with the men I always seemed to fall in love, with the exception of my first shrink, he was a horror.
Wish I didn't fall in love, makes it really tough to leave. I love it and I hate it at the same time. I hate that it makes me feel more dependent, but because I understand what's going on now, maybe it will be more manageable.Jazzed
Posted by Susan47 on May 23, 2005, at 14:52:23
In reply to My Goodness. Susan don't do this to yourself » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on May 20, 2005, at 19:33:05
That just makes me sound so ungrateful, and I'm not. Neither was he the one person who wanted to help me. I had many people who did help me, and I was there for myself when I needed it the most, I was always there for myself, because I did what I had to do, and that's what life is really all about. So yes, he helped, he taught me to take care of myself, and I'm doing that and I'm doing it really well for the first time ever. I'm functional, I'm a real, functional, lovely human being, and my problems are all solvable. Ta-dah. Yes, maybe he learned something, maybe I learned a hell of a lot more.
Posted by pinkeye on May 23, 2005, at 16:01:07
In reply to Re: My Goodness. Susan don't do this to yourself » pinkeye, posted by Susan47 on May 23, 2005, at 14:52:23
I didn't mean it as ungrateful. Just that there is some wrong way you perceive things.
Posted by JenStar on May 23, 2005, at 18:55:34
In reply to Re: Love with therapist » alecar, posted by Susan47 on May 20, 2005, at 19:16:02
oh Susan,
your words DO sound so bitter, angry, and unhappy! I wish it were not this way for you!I've been reading the boards off and on for the past year, and truthfully it almost seems as if your feelings for your ex-T are getting stronger and more distilled into love/hate than ever. I could be wrong, of course (and hope I am.)
What do you think it would take to get this man out of your mind entirely?
take care!
JenStar
Posted by pinkeye on May 23, 2005, at 19:06:36
In reply to Re: Love with therapist » Susan47, posted by JenStar on May 23, 2005, at 18:55:34
I agree fully with JenStar.
Except that I think your feelings are not really about your Ex T. You are projecting stuff on to him. And it won't help you really to try to get him out of your mind. But it would really help if you could try to understand yourself where this anger/bitterness is coming from and try to heal the source of it. No use trying to deal with symptoms when you need to cure the root cause. Otehrwise, I am pretty sure you will project this on to someone else.
My experience with myself has taught me the above thing.
Posted by Susan47 on May 24, 2005, at 19:08:14
In reply to Re: Love with therapist » Susan47, posted by JenStar on May 23, 2005, at 18:55:34
He would have to sit down with me and tell me exactly what my misperceptions were.
Posted by Susan47 on May 24, 2005, at 19:13:00
In reply to Re: Love with therapist » JenStar, posted by pinkeye on May 23, 2005, at 19:06:36
Ever noticed how a lot of my stuff has to do with attractiveness and confidence? Ever had your father look at you leeringly? So that you were afraid to be yourself? Ever had unwanted male attention? Attention you don't feel you warrant? Ever had male attention that you DID want and then were unable to act upon it, because you were taught to be completely passive? Women must not make the first move. Women must be passive and submissive. They must wait until the male comes to them. You take what you can get, not what you really want.
I'm angry all right. Did you know that a look can feel abusive? Do you know that the wrong words can be hurtful? Do you know what it feels like to feel like the ghost of your manipulative, violent, sex-crazed father is always staring at you, leering away, wanting to have sex with you but knowing he can't?
So maybe it was a fleeting moment, but damn it, he replayed it. And he's not my father. But he took the role, and like my father, he deserted me when I needed him.
Posted by Susan47 on May 24, 2005, at 19:17:33
In reply to Re: Love with therapist: Anger, *trigger*, posted by Susan47 on May 24, 2005, at 19:13:00
And he also gave me a look, a leering, lost-his-mind-for-a-moment look, but the diff was that I DID want him, and I AM extremely angry. I know he doesn't deserve my anger. But all my life I've felt ugly, unacceptable, and I don't really know if I am or not. I have no real vision of myself. But I don't believe people understand that. I've always felt unfairly unjustly judged. This therapist did the same thing. He judged, and judged, and judged me unfit for his help. WHO DOES HE THINK HE IS???
Yeah, I'm angry all right. I try to deny it, I tried to couch it in loving him, and maybe he does deserve to be forgiven, but he won't ask, he refuses to ask, and I hate that. It's ugly. He makes himself ugly with dishonesty.
Posted by pinkeye on May 24, 2005, at 19:38:40
In reply to Re: Love with therapist: Anger, *trigger*, posted by Susan47 on May 24, 2005, at 19:17:33
I see.
I can understand how you feel.
I think there are 4 aspects to the issue here. I will try to say what I understand.
1. Your issue with your father. I don't know if you have had csa - actual or emotional or not at all. And the way I see it is, it is ok for a father to get attracted to a daughter. It happens - ok? Same way for a daughter to get attracted to their fathers. And moms and sons. There will always perhaps be a mild attraction to parents and parents to their kids. It is not awfully immoral or wrong or completely unacceptable. What is awfully immoral or wrong or completely unacceptable is to act on it.
There is a huge huge difference between the two. A father is also a man and he would be tempted to notice any woman's beauty - be it his wife or neighbour or his own child or his mom even. That part is not wrong. IT is natural. What is wrong is when the person tries to act on it and looks in a wrong way or not. That is wrong. But even that, doesn't make a person completely sex crazed or anything. Human emotions are complex, and often the person really doesn't have full control over his emotions and actions.
That is why I forgave my dad - for whatever inapprorpiate behaviour he had. He hugged me a lot, and used to ask me to sleep hugging him etc even when I was growing into an adult, and now while I realize his actions were wrong, I don't think of him as a cruel or pervert personality. I hope you can see your dad in the same way.
2. Your desire towards your ex T and your suspicion of his desire towards you and his refusal to acknowledge it to you and his terminating you and his refusal to acknowledge how it hurts you. - You have to understand that your ex T is not your father. You are not a kid to more than one person. Your ex T is a man - maybe perhaps about your age. And he has full liberty to get attracted to you. Again he is not even a bit wrong to get attracted to you. And without his intentions, show it to you. We cannot hide what we feel beyond a point. You have to give credit to your Ex t for that. And since he was a good T, he didn't try to act on his feelings. He probably understands your anger and frustration - but he cannot do anything about it since he was your T. He cannot come and tell you that he liked you. That he felt attracted towards you. ( I personally think it would be much easier for the client if the therapist acknowledges his feelings to the client, but ethics says no, and he would be trying to live according to ethics ). So again, he is bound to a code which he is not going to violate. I think he need not have terminated you, and he could have tried to help you more and be there for you more, but maybe he didn't have the capacity for it himself.
3. Your basic sense of ugliness and unacceptability. I have had issues around the same.. And I realized it is something I need to gain for myself. IT is not goign to come from an external party - if I feel ugly, even if 1000 men tell me that they find me attractive, I am still goign to feel ugly. So it is really upto you to make up your mind on what you want to see yourself as. Physical beauty is really not a definining factor in a person's beauty. I know tons of persons who are extremely ugly, but still have a very high self esteem and think they are quite acceptable, and have a very loving relationship with men in their life. IT is possible for every woman on this earth - irrespective of how they look. But it has to happen within you.
4. Your anger and bitterness and the way you perceive things -- From what I see, you have lots of it. Lot of us have the same issues you have - basically some form of csa, hurting over ex T and confused by their feelings and our feelings, confused feelings about fathers, and our self image and attractiveness, and whether we are an acceptable woman or not etc. But not all of us get angry and bitter to the same degree. It varies a lot if you have read everyone's posts. I think the answer for the anger and bitterness is to somehow try to seek peace and fulfillment in other means - music, spirituality, kids, other relationships, helping others. The better you feel overall, the better you would feel about your sexuality also. I think you might want to seriously consider some sort of spiritual activity.
4. The quesiton of why woman cannot initiate and why they should be passive etc. Atleast in weseter society, as far as I come to understand, you need not do it. You can by all means propose to a guy, and if the guy likes you, you can get together. You cannot get anyone by force, and it holds true for a guy also. But I think nowadays, no man is going to turn you down just because you proposed to them first.
I hope it helps.
Posted by Susan47 on May 24, 2005, at 23:21:32
In reply to Re: Love with therapist: Anger, *trigger* » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on May 24, 2005, at 19:38:40
Thanks for the advice Pinkeye. That's what this is all about, for me, it's about getting over the anger and the feelings of worthlessness, of having something wrong with me because idiot men walked all over me all my life, feeling ruined because I can't be feeling a worthy woman. Did you assume I think he's attracted to me personally? That I think there might be something really attractive about me that would make him want somebody like me? Because I don't think I've ever said that. I think he's just a man. A male who doesn't understand that every female isn't bursting with self-confidence and ego around her looks. Someone like me who tries very hard not to be the girl daddy loved to hate, who hated her all his life and still does. But loves me too, he loves me but I can't love him, and I was completely turned off by the sight of him naked, my father was a horror, a walking horror show for me.
I know you don't understand, I read it in your post. And that's okay. A lot of people don't get it. Fortunately for them, they're not me :)
Posted by pinkeye on May 24, 2005, at 23:37:19
In reply to Re: Love with therapist: Anger, *trigger* » pinkeye, posted by Susan47 on May 24, 2005, at 23:21:32
Yeah, I think I probably don't know how to help.
The way I work with myself is I try to understand where I went wrong mostly. I know other people have messed up my life as well, but I look around and see other people's life which has been messed up even more by many people - like kids who don't have parents, kids who don't have food or even decent clothes to wear, kids who are completely abused and raped and threatened to death by many people. And I see they manage to emerge to be happy. So I try to learn to be happy myself. Because I feel I atleast I have food, clothes, parents, relatives, friends, access to internet etc. So with all these, I could do much better than what I am doing. That is why I try to take more and more responsibility myself.
I feel everyone's life is messed up by lot of people. But ultimately, if I don't learn, then I am the one who continues to suffer. So that is the only reason why I try to learn myself. If I try to blame others, then I don't have control over my suffering. If I take control and learn some other coping techniques, then I get control over my feelings.
IT is not about something being bad about you - it is just that you haven't learnt to distance yourself adequately from others. All of us need to learn to distance ourselves from all the suffering others impose upon us. That is the only way we can be happy. I think you are identifying yourself too much with your dad, and ex T and other men who messed up your life, and you are finding it impossible to heal because of it.
Maybe it is because I am little religious that I learnt this "detached attachment" attitude. I think that is key to well being.
Posted by JenStar on May 25, 2005, at 19:38:17
In reply to Re: Love with therapist: Anger, *trigger*, posted by Susan47 on May 24, 2005, at 19:13:00
SUsan,
it sounds like there is some very painful stuff in your past - abuse from your father? Even if he didn't touch you physically, it's obvious that you are hurting emotionally. Did you ever talk about this with the T? would it help to talk to a new T now?I guess when I was asking what would get the ex-T out of your mind, I was coming from the standpoint of what YOU could do. You've made it clear that there won't be further contact between you & the ex-T, so it seems like a sit-down between the 2 of you is out. Apart from that, what can you do to get him out of your mind? It's tearing you up! You deserve to be happier, not so miserable.
((susan))
JenStar
Posted by Susan47 on May 27, 2005, at 23:24:05
In reply to Re: Love with therapist: Anger, *trigger* » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on May 24, 2005, at 23:37:19
I agree. Detachment works perfectly. Yes. It's beautiful, and attachment to what makes us happy is also beautiful. Learning what makes me happy versus unhappy has been huge, the biggest lesson. One of the biggest.
Posted by Susan47 on May 27, 2005, at 23:26:58
In reply to Re: Love with therapist: Anger, *trigger* » Susan47, posted by JenStar on May 25, 2005, at 19:38:17
I'm really not miserable, miserable is such a huge word. My dad used to say that to me, you know, "You look so miserable, you look ugly, smile, no wonder...." and then whatever it is that was his bitch of the moment. Moment it was, too, moment to moment to moment it was always something. What a miserable hunk of humanity. You know, some people just like to be miserable, they honestly don't understand any other way of being.. glad I'm not one of them :-) I have my moments but I'm definitely not miserable, no.
Posted by Aastra on June 14, 2005, at 20:47:11
In reply to Re: Love with therapist « Stamper, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2002, at 10:13:05
I am so confused about therapy and what is right and wrong. I have been in psychotherapy for aprox. 2 years. My therapist is and has been very nice since the beginning.
But over the 2 years my therapist has disclosed there personal life. I know the names of my therapist's children, spouse & dog. City my therapist lives in and other likes and dislikes and different situations, mostly that fit what we're talking about. My therapist told me from the beginning that my therapist has very good boundaries. I have been through much abuse and I'm trying to work through that with my therapist.
I get confused on how he feels about me. He has experienced counter-transference in a session with me. Sometimes I will say something and then I retract it because I'm not sure and he will say "I love when you do that." Then he will go on to mimic what I just did. He also tells me when laughing "You're so funny, you really are." I'm not sure how to take all this. I'm just feeling so confused! Can someone help or shed some light. Should I be worried or is this normal?
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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