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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 18 to 42 of 52. Go back in thread:
Posted by mair on April 7, 2005, at 13:17:46
In reply to talking about it, posted by Daisym on April 7, 2005, at 10:34:05
What your T seems to be doing would not sit well with me. I started thinking about my T entirely apart from anything I ever remember her saying. Both my T and my pdoc have let me know that children of people who commit suicide never really get over it at all - but I don't think even those were unsolicited guilt trip type comments. That information was probably imparted because I've frequently raised my children as being impediments to killing myself. Now when I think of them I don't just think about the effect of me not being around, but I also think about them having to deal with a suicide, and the possibility that they may feel responsible for it. (for awhile I came up with the idea of killing myself in a sufficiently awful car accident so they didn't have to deal with the suicide stigma)
So I guess the long answer is that I haven't discussed with my T the types of things you have with yours because, to my recollection, she's never approached it in the way yours has. She did spend several sessions a few years ago trying to convince me to check myself into a hospital and she raised it again very briefly last week. I've always been very resistant. However, her raising this issue (a few years ago) led to some very productive discussions about suicide and about my discomfort contacting her and helped her, I think, to understand when she has to consider me at risk and when she doesn't, and also helped me to accept that I could reach out to her.
mair
Posted by mair on April 7, 2005, at 13:30:01
In reply to talking about it, posted by Daisym on April 7, 2005, at 10:34:05
daisy - the other thing I wanted to say is that I think people search around for whatever works and play that card to the hilt. It sounds to me like this is what your T is doing although you make him sound a little desparate or grasping, which is not a good way to be.
A few years ago I spent alot of time on the telephone with someone who was seriously suicidal. The only thing that seemed to have any impact on her at all was her belief in reincarnation. She was really worried that her next life might be as a Taliban woman, for instance. I shamelessly kept raising this although I don't think it did a bit of good.
mair
Posted by Dinah on April 7, 2005, at 18:24:06
In reply to talking about it, posted by Daisym on April 7, 2005, at 10:34:05
My therapist isn't quite that obvious about it, but he will use our relationship. He'll say things like "But if you kill yourself, we won't be able to meet anymore."
But, since I don't reward him by responding well to that line of argument, he doesn't pursue it too much. Who says they can't be trained if you get them when they're grown. lol.
I'm not sure he's used my son unless I brought it up first. Of course, I can pretty much be relied on for bringing that up.
I just gave him new ammo, though, if he's wise enough to file it away and use it. We're a bit worried about guardianship for my son, don't want it to go where it would be most natural legally, and are not really happy with the alternatives. My husband and I have agreed (perhaps reluctantly on my part) that we both really need to stick around for the next ten or eleven years.
All he needs to do is raise the possibilities with guardianship, and I'll cling to life.
Posted by daisym on April 7, 2005, at 18:51:41
In reply to Re: talking about it » Daisym, posted by mair on April 7, 2005, at 13:17:46
I should have said that I raise the idea of my children all the time by myself. Hence the "it will be an accident" plan. And he isn't pounding on me, he is "curious" about this or that. But he asks all the hard questions, the ones I keep asking myself.
And we talked about this today (again)-- that he is worrying. He asked if knowing that he was worried was taking away my "freedom" to talk about it -- as honestly and detailed as I wanted/needed to. It is really hard to answer, "how does knowing I'm worried make you feel?" I told him I thought he was a bit unfair over the weekend and he said, "totally." And he said with vehemence that he needed to reach me and I had moved really far away. *sigh* He said he'd rather have me mad and alive... *big sigh*
It is a horrible position I've put him in, isn't it? I shouldn't fault him. He's so totally there for me. I mean, how would I feel if he didn't address all of this, wouldn't I think he didn't care? And wouldn't that be worse?
Posted by daisym on April 7, 2005, at 18:57:10
In reply to Re: talking about it » Daisym, posted by B2chica on April 7, 2005, at 11:55:25
provoking anger...that is an interesting theory. I know that he really believes that if you can talk about the feelings it helps dissipate the intensity. And we've talked about how anxiety is a step "above" the black hole, as much as I hate it. And anger results in anxiety for me. So...hmmmm...
As far as handling my response feelings -- his biggest strength. Nothing I say seems to rattle him. I might worry him, frustrate him occasionally, but he just exudes calm. He counters well to smart-a$$ comments too. I think I don't want to hear the truth right now. All of me wants to believe that it won't matter one iota if I'm not here. It would make it so much easier.
Posted by daisym on April 7, 2005, at 19:05:05
In reply to Re: talking about it » Daisym, posted by Dinah on April 7, 2005, at 18:24:06
Like I said above, I brought up my kids. The guardian issue was huge for us when they were younger too. But they are so big now, that isn't really an issue anymore.
Is it hard to know that your therapist is worrying about you? You've been with him for a long time...are you glad that he cares? Or does it make you feel like a burden? I feel both things.
Perhaps the correct response is just to respond...to make the person think twice or three times. We talked about the difference between thinking about it and feeling it. The feelings get so thick that the ability to analyze reasons rationally can't get through. So he said we have to work on that piece when we can and go for counter-response feelings as well. "Kind of like boxing," he told me. "Better to stay out of the ring but if you find yourself there, keep your gloves up and stay out of corners."
Such a "guy" things to say...
Posted by pinkeye on April 7, 2005, at 19:09:02
In reply to Re: talking about it » mair, posted by daisym on April 7, 2005, at 18:51:41
Not really sure if this helps, but in the religions that I believe in, self annihilation is totally prohibited.
We believe in reincarnation, and the separatedness of soul and body. The soul undergoes many births and takes different bodies. And in each life, all the sins + goodthings accumulate to a cumulative total, and this total leads us to the next birth according the sum. So according to my religion, if we suffer a little bit in this birht, it is because we have done something wrong in the previous birth, and it something we have to undergo through no matter what - kind of like you have taken a loan and you need to repay it. Prayers to God and doing more good things to others eliminates/reduces the sin and reduces the suffering that you have to go through to repay the loan. Nothing else helps. Commiting suicide is considered even more sinful, since you take a life which God has given, and you will incur severe penalties for that.
According to our beliefs, if you take away your life, then for the rest of the period which you would have lived naturally, your soul will be wandering without a body, but it will have all the needs of the body, but no body to fulfill the desires. The soul will feel thirsty, hungry, tired, and lusty, and needing comfort, but since it deprived itself of its own body, it will have to remain hungry, tired, lusty, and no way to fulfill all these needs till the time when the person would have naturally died. And you incur these penalties by taking another birth and suffering more.
Not sure if it is a right thing to post here, but it is preached to all of us - hindus - so if you believe it could be possible, then it is a really bad thing to do for yourself. We feel it is better to live with whatever life we got for now and reduce our sins by prayers/good deeds.
Posted by Dinah on April 7, 2005, at 19:29:58
In reply to Re: talking about it » Dinah, posted by daisym on April 7, 2005, at 19:05:05
I think I'm glad he cares. Because it's so hard for me to believe he does, probably. So any indication that he does means a lot to me.
Our biggest move forward in therapy was when he winced when I talked about suicide. It seemed very genuine, because it wasn't a stagey enormous wince. It was more a private wince. I was so touched I offered him my promise not to kill myself without calling him first to give him a chance to "help", as long as he was my therapist.
I told him much much later that the huge irony was that this enormous event in our relationship could have been caused by a twinge of gas, or a foot cramp, and might have had absolutely nothing to do with the topic of conversation. He earnestly assured me that the wince was due to what I said, that he remembered the conversation. As if I'd believe **that**! :)
Posted by annierose on April 7, 2005, at 20:58:25
In reply to Re: talking about it » mair, posted by daisym on April 7, 2005, at 18:51:41
I haven't finished reading all of this thread, but your T is trying to desperately reach you --- any part of you. Is it unfair? I don't think so. If someone I cared about was thinking of ending their life, I'd be desperately trying to reach them too. He's trying to throw you a life line, and hoping you'll catch it. And so do I!!
One minute at a time, one hour, one day. Don't think too far out.
Keeping you in my prayers -
Annierose
Posted by annierose on April 7, 2005, at 21:05:54
In reply to Re: talking about it » B2chica, posted by daisym on April 7, 2005, at 18:57:10
Daisy -
You wrote, "It would make it so much easier."
Make what easier? Daisy, nothing would be easier for your family without you.You also wrote your kids don't need you anymore. That is NOT true. Isn't your youngest 8 - 10ish? He NEEDS YOU BIG TIME!!! I have 2 friends whose parents killed themselves. Trust me, it turned their lives upsidedown. Extremely difficult and a life long burden.
You are scaring me. I am so glad you are fighting a good fight! And so is your T.
- Annierose
Posted by mair on April 7, 2005, at 21:16:10
In reply to Re: talking about it » mair, posted by daisym on April 7, 2005, at 18:51:41
" And we talked about this today (again)-- that he is worrying. He asked if knowing that he was worried was taking away my "freedom" to talk about it -- as honestly and detailed as I wanted/needed to. It is really hard to answer, "how does knowing I'm worried make you feel?" I told him I thought he was a bit unfair over the weekend and he said, "totally." And he said with vehemence that he needed to reach me and I had moved really far away. *sigh* He said he'd rather have me mad and alive... *big sigh*
>
> It is a horrible position I've put him in, isn't it? I shouldn't fault him. He's so totally there for me. I mean, how would I feel if he didn't address all of this, wouldn't I think he didn't care? And wouldn't that be worse? "Daisy - I think this is all important - that he cares and that you know it, and also that he understands you need to be able to talk about it. The T I had before my current T (who was also my pdoc) never really picked up on the subject of suicide when I'd raise it. It's not as if he ignored it - he acted pretty forcefully to bring my husband in to meet with us both after I told him I'd written a suicide note and when i would talk about it, he'd ask me if I was "at risk" which I always thought was a question I wasn't competent to answer. But that's about it - he hardly ever asked me follow-up questions and I honestly got the impression that maybe he thought it was better if i didn't talk about it. Maybe it was just his psychoanalytic background - just waiting for me to keep talking.
My current T has debunked the theory that it would ever be better not to talk about it. I really consider it to be sort of a gift - that she's made it a safe topic for me even if for all the times it's become a preoccupation, I've mostly chosen not to discuss it with her. Of course maybe it wouldn't seem like a safe subject at all if I really was able to convince myself that it was my only option.
Daisy, have you considered that some of what you're going through may be medication related? I think medication issues had a hand in both of the instances where I probably was genuinely most at risk. In one instance, getting off a medication seemed to help more than hurt and in the other just making a change from taking a med in the morning to taking it at night made a huge difference. I wasn't suicidal because of the meds, but I think they pushed me a little closer to the edge.
Mair
Posted by daisym on April 7, 2005, at 23:50:00
In reply to Re: talking about it, posted by annierose on April 7, 2005, at 21:05:54
Annie,
I'm sorry I'm scaring you. I need a new topic, don't I?
My youngest is 13 1/2. Can't believe he is going to high school next year. The oldest is a sophmore in college and the middle one is going off to the University in the Fall. So they are set and on their way. They are terrific kids and I think will make super husbands some day. At least I hope so, after all they are still male and I can't do anything about that...:)
I know my therapist is just doing his job, so really, I do understand why he uses what he can.
Posted by daisym on April 8, 2005, at 0:04:43
In reply to Re: talking about it » daisym, posted by mair on April 7, 2005, at 21:16:10
Mair,
I'm not on medications, except for sleeping. I tried an anti-anxiety med but it made me really depressed. Interesting that you brought this up, I called pdoc today to talk about ADs again. My therapist is encouraging this but very carefully. Last time I went to pdoc I got so upset and we both are very aware I can't take much more upset. She said she can't do anything until she sees me next week and she also wants to talk to my therapist. He said fine, he would talk to her, if it was OK with me, and I gave my consent but then fell apart in his office again. What is it about her that freaks me so badly?
He thinks I need help to get out of this hole. I'm terrified that the medications are essentially being used to shut me (little daisy) up. And I told him that I was afraid she would tell him that the answer is to cut back contact with me, force me to be strong on my own again. He said she can't tell him how we should do therapy together. He promised not to pull away.
*sigh* It is all so complicated and I'm so tired. It feels like a really long time until Monday. I wish Babble didn't get so quiet over the weekends.
Posted by daisym on April 8, 2005, at 0:06:03
In reply to suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trigger*, posted by B2chica on April 5, 2005, at 12:35:53
I didn't mean to, it just sort of happened. How are things today?
Posted by Pfinstegg on April 8, 2005, at 1:17:52
In reply to Sorry for hi-jacking your thread! » B2chica, posted by daisym on April 8, 2005, at 0:06:03
Daisy, I'm so glad you're posting often, again. A thought- maybe up until now, the little daisies who appeared were desparate for closeness and connection with him, but, right now, there might be one who feels it is safer to be more indifferent, detached and at a distance. Both these things have happened to me- I find the detached part is by far the hardest to bear. But he keeps saying, "I want ALL of you in here, even the parts of yourself that you don't want to know about, and that you don't want me to know about." We are working on the most detached part now, but I do feel better knowing that part, too, is welcomed and understood. We went through months of struggling with this, but it's better now that that part is beginning to know that she is welcome, too. It took months! These are just my thoughts and feelings- they may not apply to you
Posted by mair on April 8, 2005, at 11:08:46
In reply to Re: talking about it » mair, posted by daisym on April 8, 2005, at 0:04:43
I hate it too when Babble gets so quiet over the weekend because sometimes that's the only uninterrupted time I have with the computer.
I can almost guarantee that the pdoc isn't going to tell him to cut back with you and you should be able to trust him enough to know he's not going to draw back from you under any circumstances but especially not when you're in such distress. I don't know enough to speak to the issue of whether you'll lose little daisy. I do know that if you kill yourself, you'll surely lose her. The unfortunate part of ADs is that they take a while to kick in and the initial side effects can be tough to tolerate. With many of the ADs, the side effects dissipate afte a couple of weeks, maybe, so if you can hold on, it may be worth it. I'm now going through a new trial of a drug which is being added to the stuff I've been taking for years. The "cocktail" I've been taking has never really been enough and obviously didn't prevent the rather severe trough I'm in now. However, just the memory of how much pain I was in before we settled on those drugs is enough to keep me on them, I expect for the rest of my life. Finding a drug that worked even partially for me has made such a huge difference. I think you need to accept that there is only so much you can handle without drug intervention.
Hopefully you'll hear from other posters who are dealing with csa issues about whether taking drugs makes them less able to tap into the childhood memories.
I'll check in periodically over the weekend or you can babblemail me if you want. Unfortunately I am on EST. It used to seem to me that everyone was on Pacific Time and that no one was ever around when I posted earlier in the evening.
Mair
Posted by fallsfall on April 8, 2005, at 12:46:53
In reply to Re: talking about it » mair, posted by daisym on April 8, 2005, at 0:04:43
Your kids aren't the only ones who need you.
I hope you can stay in touch with your therapist this weekend.
Please call him/me/a friend/911 if things get rough. You don't have to tough it out.
Love,
Falls.
Posted by daisym on April 9, 2005, at 0:52:20
In reply to Re: Sorry for hi-jacking your thread! » daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on April 8, 2005, at 1:17:52
"I want ALL of you in here, even the parts of yourself that you don't want to know about, and that you don't want me to know about"
There is so much truth in this especially since this age state is very ashamed about what happened at this age (9). I need a lot of help getting out the stories and her feelings. It feels soooo wrong. It is the first time I remember specifically being told not to tell, so I'm in trouble for talking about this. This age is terrified of being in the therapy room, and the waiting room is pure agony. I'm glad she doesn't drop in very often.
And unbelievably, in the midst of this latest crisis, little daisy was feeling left out and neglected. We discovered this on Wednesday when I showed up and said, "I have nothing to talk about today." (arms crossed, legs crossed, head down.) Hmmmm..."so," he says nonchalantly. "I guess there is plenty of room for little daisy to visit then, right? Do you think she has anything to say?" Urgg...trapped again.
How are things with you? I've missed you posting.
Posted by daisym on April 9, 2005, at 0:59:42
In reply to Re: talking about it » daisym, posted by mair on April 8, 2005, at 11:08:46
Thanks mair. I need encouragement around this. We talked about medications again today and I was completely in tears. I feel like I should be able to handle all of this better. At the same time, I know I need some help. I'm going to burn out my poor therapist if I don't pull up and out of this soon.
So, I promised to keep my appointment with pdoc on Tuesday. I'll let you know how it goes.
Posted by daisym on April 9, 2005, at 1:07:51
In reply to Re: talking about it » daisym, posted by fallsfall on April 8, 2005, at 12:46:53
I think I do need to try to tough it out more, Falls. I need to begin to believe that my inner resources are not completely depleted.
I'm really going to try to not bother him this weekend. He extracted a promise that I would call if I really start having a hard time. Perhaps I should just stay in bed this weekend. (sigh -- too much work to do.)
It will be fine. Thanks for the encouragement.
Posted by fallsfall on April 9, 2005, at 8:18:50
In reply to Re: talking about it » fallsfall, posted by daisym on April 9, 2005, at 1:07:51
You know, you "toughed" it out alone when you were little. How well did that work? Are you happy with the results of everything being secret back then? Do you want to repeat that now?
If your therapist is anything like me (and I really do like to (delusionally) think that he is... 8^) ) you will burn him out faster by keeping secrets than you will by telling him what is going on with you. When we don't know what is going on, we imagine things - and very (very) often, what we imagine is worse than what is real. Or we imagine 6 different possibilities because we don't know which is the real one, and we want to be "ready" for all of them. If we *know* what is true (even if it is pretty awful), at least we don't expend a whole bunch of energy on all of the things that *aren't* true.
So, do you want him to be thinking about the 5 things that aren't true for you as well as the one thing that is true, and figuring out how to help you deal with them, or do you want him to be able to concentrate on the one thing that is true and deal with that?
If we (your therapist, me, others here on Babble, your IRL friends) didn't *care* about you, we would just wait for you to decide to tell us what was going on and we wouldn't do any mental exercises in the mean time (note the dual meaning of "mental" - having to do with the brain, and mentally ill). But we *DO* care, so we *DO* think about you and "worry" about you - whether you want us to or not. And *NOT* telling us what is going on makes us work a lot harder.
So, if you don't want to burn him out - talk more, not less.
(((((Daisy)))))
P.S. I'm feeling a little better after *Talking* to you last night, but I'd still be happy to cuddle in the corner of your couch with you, or on the swing outside if it is nice weather (please?).
Posted by Pfinstegg on April 9, 2005, at 15:28:57
In reply to Long time no see! » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on April 9, 2005, at 0:52:20
Well, that's the reason I haven't been posting-a younger, very ashamed, sad and lonely-feeling pfinstegg was taking up all my time. She was trying to avoid everyone-even everyone here. My analyst and I have worked for a long time on finding ways for her to feel accepted and cared for, as is, and I think she's feeling better enough to allow me to feel like posting again! I want to say, also, that the art therapy has been a big help with the youngest pfinsteggs. Some of the most useful, although painful, sessions are when tears pour onto the pastels, and I can mess all around with them. I don't do it as often as I'd like, as it's another expense, but I do get a lot out of it. The art therapist is wonderful about translating these pre-verbal states into words, both to me, and in her communications with my analyst.
I know you're going to see a pdoc soon. It's probably a very good idea to see what all your options are. I found that I responded very well to the SSRI's for about 5 years, but then didn't. At about that time, I began taking an anti-psychotic, Zyprexa. That helped a lot with the emotional pain, but very rapidly made me gain 40 pounds and gave me metabolic syndrome (well on the way to getting diabetes, which does not run in my family at all). Once I stopped it, the whole situation luckily reversed within a year, but I know not everyone is so lucky. I do think the depression and pain of PTSD is difficult to treat.And I think, too, that part of getting good psychotherapy for it involves feeling even more pain. It's different from major depression or bipolar. If you do decide on an anti-psychotic, Risperdal in very low doses might be a good one to consider. And all that class of drugs help a lot with sleep. They make you so sleepy that you HAVE to wait until bedtime to take them.I think the thing everyone needs to do is check frequently to see if they are developing insulin resistance or higher fasting blood sugars- something I've not yet heard of a pdoc suggesting!.
Another thing which helped me, in addition to a lot of fish oil and B vitamins, was getting my thyroid checked thoroughly. The endocrinologist would not have treated me, because my TSH was only 4.5. But i learned here that it's better for mood disorders to have the TSH between 0.5 and 1.0. I learned here also that half of the thyroid supplementation should be as T4 (Synthroid), and half as T3 (Cytomel). Cytomel is short-acting, and I really do notice an improvement in my mood about a half hour after I take it morning and afternoon. (When you take these, you do have to watch for osteoporosis with DEXA scans, and take 1500 mg. of Calcium, 300 mg. of Magnesium and either 400 or 800 IU's Vitamin D. (This is a free pdoc consultation from an older pfinstegg, who tends to start talking and doesn't stop)
I'd be interested in how that visit goes.
Posted by daisym on April 10, 2005, at 0:40:08
In reply to Re: Long time no see! » daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on April 9, 2005, at 15:28:57
Thanks for all the free advice. I've been reading a lot about thyroid and it is on my list to have checked. Given that I'm surrounded by diabetics, checking blood sugars should be a breeze.
I'm glad the art therapy is helping. I don't like messy play much but perhaps my youngself might. I think she might be afraid of getting into trouble if she gets dirty.
Have you been able to verbalize any of the shame? I've found that I still can't much, even if I can tell about the events. What is happening is that as these feelings and events come up and out, the adult me has to keep reworking the "why did this happen?" question. It is impossible to now know these things and still believe it was "an accident" or "an over-abundance of love" or even a compulsion that took over. So much of the young kid stuff is about invented games, which had to have pre-thought.
And I'm playing out the scenario of telling on myself over and over again with my therapist. I'm so afraid he is going to get mad, so sure that each time I tell him something he is going to see the "real" me and cut himself off from me. It's that mother thing again.
I'm glad you are posting again. My appointment with pdoc is Tuesday. I'll let you know how it goes.
Posted by annierose on April 10, 2005, at 7:51:40
In reply to Re: Long time no see! » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on April 10, 2005, at 0:40:08
Daisy -
Is your pdoc appointment with the same woman from last time? or a new person? I remember how bad she made you feel.I hope you are having a better weekend too.
-Annierose
Posted by Pfinstegg on April 10, 2005, at 21:20:09
In reply to Re: Long time no see! » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on April 10, 2005, at 0:40:08
I do talk a lot bout my intense feelings of shame. He always points out that I didn't do anything to be so ashamed of- my father did. But, you know, it is so complicated, because I somehow do feel that it is my fault. That I did something to encourage it, because of wanting so much to be loved- and, hardest of all to face, it was both terrifying and pleasurable (a little bit). I'm pretty shaky now about all of this, but I am aware of how strong, calm. loving and understanding my analyst is- I know I can count on him. I have had real outbursts of rage and anger at him, and I am slowly learning that he really doesn't turn against me because of it. He wants to know what's happening!
I'm once again giving unsolicited advice, but, if I were to do it over again, I would never have put that first SSRI pill in my mouth. They helped a lot at first, but, in the longer run, they can deplete your dopamine, and that it a horrible feeling- you don't care about anything, and the things and relationships that once gave meaning and pleasure to life no longer do. This is just my personal experience- not everyone's by any means. But it was shocking to me to see how different their long-term effects were
as compared to the short-term ones, which were wonderful. As you are talking to your pdoc, remember that not everyone has such a disappointing experience with the SSRI's. Also, the immediate effects can be really helpful, so, if you decide on one of those (or an SNRI), i think it would be good to think about using them for a relatively short period of time, perhaps a year or two, and then having a longer-term plan- perhaps without them. I'm sure others here, especially on the medications board, can give their experiences you if you ask.I am now doing much better without any medications at all- just the thyroid supplements, fish oil and vitamins. But the therapy has probably made that possible, as I think I really did need the medications before. I still do experience horrible periods of pain, but I do feel that my analyst is truly *with* me now, inside, and that I can comfort myself, at least a bit, by drawing on the knowledge that he is really with me.
Just to make note of the fact that I feel I am coming back to life, I won a blue ribbon in dressage this morning in the gorgeous spring Virginia countryside!
I am very interested in what your pdoc suggests.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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