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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Speaker on October 3, 2004, at 13:57:48
Several months ago I gave my T a video of part of my life. I let a month or so go by and asked if he watched it and he said no...I was hurt but thought well that was his choice and drew the conclusion he didn't care and didn't want to take his time to watch it. He stated he would watch it with me...I didn't want to and said he could watch it during my time and I would come in after the video and finish the session that way he would be paid for his "caring time". He never brought it up again. Once again several months went by and I brought up the video and he said he wants to watch the video with me that he wants the whole experience...bull - I think he never thinks about it until I'm in front of him and I bring it up. Somehow he talked (manipulated) me into watching it with him in a few weeks. Now I have the question. Why would I want to watch something with someone who wasn't interested enough to watch it on their own? How do I feel like he cares since he didn't watch it before and why will I feel like he cares if we do watch it. Why do I care if he watches it now when I gave him this gift to look inside me earlier and he passed? Am I making to much out of this?
Posted by daisym on October 3, 2004, at 15:18:00
In reply to Help! I don't understand my T, posted by Speaker on October 3, 2004, at 13:57:48
Speaker,
I could see so many sides to this, so it is really hard to sort out. On one hand I can see why he would want to watch it with you, get your take on it and have his questions answered "in the moment." Also the powerful emotions it might trigger could be useful as a spring-board. BUT, since you said you didn't want to watch it with him, his initial offer of a compromise seemed appropriate.
I know there are some schools of thought that believe that you have to preserve the therapeutic frame of the scheduled time, even when reading things or, as in this case, watching things. That is so you don't give the client the "dangerous" impression that you think about them between sessions or have all this "free" time on your hands to utilize. OK, I'm being sarcastic but I have read that some therapist really do chart their time like lawyers...the meter is running for each client. So they try to structure activities involving that client into that client's paid time. It is an economy of time issue as well as a money issue. AND, I think they worry about the potential for manipulation on the part of the client, trying to insure that the therapist thinks about them between sessions. In my business, we have built in "prep" time for each client, so we can review reports, notes and other things we need. I don't know if this is true beyond the 10 or 15 minutes at the end of the hour for therapists. I had a therapist tell me once that she only reads email during sessions, she actually leaves her clients in the waiting room to read anything they've sent her since the last time they saw her. I think this is extreme. But it could also be seen as protecting their time too. Imagine if you have 40 clients and they all send you emails that take 5 min. to read and 5 min to respond to, you've add in 400 minutes in a week. That's almost a whole day!
Like most things, it feels pretty complicated, all this worry about what consciously or unconsciously the client is trying to do. And then we worry about what they think we are trying to do. Ick!
I think the most important factor here isn't the tape any more. It is the fact that your feelings are hurt and you feel manipulated into doing something you clearly said you didn't want to. He should have cleanly said he wouldn't watch it without you. Not gone back and forth. It speaks to your relationship, your trust and what you need/want from him.
If it were me, I'd ask for the tape back and tell him that it had grown into a different issue for you. And then I'd try to sort out the issue by clarifying his policy and how it makes you feel. I'm reminded of something I say to my new home visitors, "they don't care what you know until they know you care."
Do you think you can talk to him about this?
Posted by shortelise on October 3, 2004, at 15:19:24
In reply to Help! I don't understand my T, posted by Speaker on October 3, 2004, at 13:57:48
Oh, rats, speaker - you have to tell him all of that, don't you? All of what you have written here?
The way you put it, it sounds like he is an uncaring dunderhead. Is that all the projection, transference stuff? Or is it the real stuff?
Ugh. I don't envy you. This is hard.
ShortE
Posted by pegasus on October 3, 2004, at 17:48:30
In reply to Help! I don't understand my T, posted by Speaker on October 3, 2004, at 13:57:48
Oh, wow, Speaker. I know that in your shoes, I would feel very hurt. This seems like it really needs some sorting out between you. I liked Daisy and shortelise's suggestions. Especially about taking the tape back and trying to work out what was going on from his side, and from your side.
From where I sit, it seems as though he ought to have said something to you about how he wanted to handle the tape right when you gave it to him. To let a month or so go by with no comment from him, and then to find out that he never even watched it . . . that's pretty hard to understand, at least for me.
Maybe he has some perfectly valid reason for not watching it, and wanting to watch it with you. But I think he really ought to explain that reason to you. And I think it would be good if you could explain how his response so far has made you feel. Otherwise, I could see this becoming a big obstacle to your relationship.
Good luck, and let us know what you end up doing about this.
pegasus
Posted by Speaker on October 3, 2004, at 20:37:31
In reply to Re: Help! I don't understand my T, posted by pegasus on October 3, 2004, at 17:48:30
We did address it last session and that is when I said I would watch it with him...then left and felt manipulated. I will be talking to him but I wanted your input just to see if maybe I was WAY off base. Thanks, and if you come up with anything else let me know
Posted by Annierose on October 3, 2004, at 22:52:37
In reply to Re: Help! I don't understand my T - TO ALL, posted by Speaker on October 3, 2004, at 20:37:31
Likewise I agree with above posters, your T should had told you straight out what he would or wouldn't do. I would be hurt. I did once give my T a CD to listen to (just 2 or 3 songs) to help express what I was feeling at the time. She did listen to it prior to my next appt. and we were able to talk about it. It was the only time in the 3 years I did that, so she knew it wasn't going to become a pattern. If she didn't listen to the CD, I would of been very hurt. I can understand the other side too, but I think most T's need to set boundries on a person by person basis.
Posted by shortelise on October 4, 2004, at 0:47:42
In reply to Re: Help! I don't understand my T - TO ALL, posted by Speaker on October 3, 2004, at 20:37:31
Sorry, speaker, it was hard for me to tell that you are relating what happened in your sessions, not just what happened in your head.
Then no, I don't think you are making too much of it. And I don't understand this power struggle the two of you are having over this video. It seems to me that it is part of his "job description" to watch this video. Is it maybe his way of reaching a compromise that he insists on watchin it during your session?
I just don't get that. I think that one of the reasons they charge so much per session is because the work they do with us in not always limited to that amount of time, that they have to write, to think, to make contacts sometimes, and do research sometimes. Psychotherapy is not something that happens for either the shrink or the shrunken in fifty minute intervals.
To say that he wants to watch it during your session time so he'd be paid for caring, or however he said it, well, that is very unpleasant.
I don't know you or your circumstances very well, and maybe there is sense to this treatment. Maybe you push the limits of the therapeutic relationship to a point where he feels the needs to insist strongly on these boundaries.
If my T said this to me, I'd never see him again, and would need therapy to get over it. It would traumatize me. It would break my heart. I would cry and cry and cry.
If he explained it to me, explained it in a way I could understand, I would - presuming his explanation was one that I could accept - probably be ok with it. But any mention of getting paid for the time he spends caring for me and I would bolt.
I don't understand your T either.
I hope I've addressed your request for insight a little more to the point this time, Speaker.
ShortE
Posted by Speaker on October 4, 2004, at 9:51:36
In reply to Neither do I » Speaker, posted by shortelise on October 4, 2004, at 0:47:42
I agree I didn't clarify well. I have never pushed any boundries as I have seen him over a year and have called during office hours twice for return calls during that time. It's not just what was said in session but what wasn't said. I gave him the video that would give him an opportunity to see inside my heart a bit more. How do I now feel like he really didn't care? If I was important and he really wanted to help I would have thought he would look at anything that would give him insight...am I off on this? Maybe I expected to much but I did offer to let him watch it during my session time and I would come in after to finish the hour. I just feel manipulated to do what is easiest for him. This is where I'm not sure I'm being fair and not letting me emotion get in the way. Probably too much thinking. THanks
Posted by fallsfall on October 4, 2004, at 11:14:35
In reply to Re: Neither do I, posted by Speaker on October 4, 2004, at 9:51:36
I used to write pages of journalling every week and give it to my therapist. She would read it between sessions and sometimes ask me questions or comment. If it was important journalling she always at least acknowledged that she had read it.
Then I changed therapists. My new therapist doesn't want anything I've written (Correction, in 15 months he has asked to keep a copy of 1 thing I wrote). He doesn't even want me to bring it in and read it in the session (though he is getting a little more flexible on this, and I'm only asking to do it when it is really important). I asked in the beginning if he wanted copies of my journalling. He said I could give them to him, but that he would *not* promise to read them between sessions. So that if I couldn't handle knowing that he might not read them I shouldn't give them to him. I interpreted it to mean that he didn't want to give me any extra time outside of my sessions. But now that I know him better, I think that it is more that he wants *me* and *my reactions* more than he wants my thoughts. He works in the Here and Now (meaning this very minute, not last week) - so something I wrote 3 days ago is old news.
It was painful to go from my first therapist who viewed my journalling as a gift to my present therapist who wants nothing. But I no longer see it as him rejecting me or my journalling - he shows me that he cares in other ways. And last weekend I know that he spent significant time thinking about me and what we could do to get "unstuck".
So my therapist wouldn't want to watch the tape at all. If I forced the issue, he would want me to be there while he did so that he could see my reaction to the tape. We would probably have a 2 session long power struggle about it if I really wanted him to watch it, but wasn't willing to be present at the time (and I would lose in the end). I guess I'm just trying to say that different therapists have different views on these kinds of things. Your therapist sounds a lot like mine. I *know* that my therapist cares about me (even though he doesn't want my journalling), and I think that it is probably *not unlikely* that your therapist cares about you (even though he doesn't want to watch your tape). I really do hate these struggles with my therapist, but over time I am starting to understand how he works better and it does get easier.
Posted by shortelise on October 4, 2004, at 11:28:41
In reply to Re: Neither do I, posted by Speaker on October 4, 2004, at 9:51:36
That's so hard to know, Speaker, if you are being manipulated to just do what is easier for him.
You have offered him a way of gaining insight, and he has refused it. That doesn't make sense to me. You may be getting into the thick of things in therapy, and one would think that your T would jump at any chance to gain insight. So, no, I don't think you're "off" on this.
Could it be that he wants you to examine your inability to confront whatever is in the video with him? Could it be that he feels it would be counter-productive for him to learn about you by watching it without you?
If it were me and my T, I'd tell him that I need to undersatnd why he wouldn't watch this video without me. I think all of your questions are fair. I would feel the same, and be asking the same questions.
ShortE
Posted by lookdownfish on October 4, 2004, at 14:18:52
In reply to Re: Neither do I, posted by Speaker on October 4, 2004, at 9:51:36
Ouch - I can see why this hurts.
My T would be exactly the same. If I want her to read something she asks me to read it out in a session. I think I understand that. Because hypothetically speaking, if one day I gave her some journalling and she read it then the next time, encouraged by her, I gave her more to read, then after a while, even more. So eventually if it was taking up too much of her time, then she would have to tell me that she couldn't read it, which would upset me because she had changed the rules. So setting a firm boundary and never accepting anything written makes sense to me. I think a video would probably be the same with her.However, that's my T, not yours, and I think you deserve a proper explanation from your T.
What do you think the video tells him about you that he hasn't found out yet? Would it help to discuss that with him?
Posted by Dinah on October 5, 2004, at 9:11:22
In reply to Help! I don't understand my T, posted by Speaker on October 3, 2004, at 13:57:48
I definitely think you should talk to your therapist about it until you are satisfied with the answer.
But I'll tell you that mine is the same way. I don't *think* it's boundary drawing with him. He encourages me to make contact with him between sessions. I don't *think* it's fees, because once I gave him a book and offered to pay for his time while he read it. It took me about an hour and a half, but perhaps I should have asked him how fast a reader he was. I mentioned it once or twice but never saw the book again. Nor did he ever watch something that *he* had asked I loan to him.
With *my* therapist, I *think* that he's just disorganized.
My solution was to decide that overall the relationship was worth the problems and that I would find ways to work around it. So I no longer ask for what I am relatively sure he won't give. I accept his caring in the ways he's able to show it. Reading stuff or watching stuff unless I'm standing over his shoulder just is not one of those ways.
If I were his mom, I'd ground him, but I'm not. So I just bought a duplicate book (I actually bought it right after I gave it to him - do I know him or what?)
That's just my solution, and it is a typical solution of mine to reduce expectations to what I think it's likely I'll get. It might be a bad thing, I don't know. I just call it pragmatic, or in Linehan's terms "doing what works".
I'd still talk about it if it were occupying my mind though. Talking about it while he doesn't have the videotape might work better, to my pragmatic mind.
Posted by shortelise on October 5, 2004, at 12:24:46
In reply to Re: Help! I don't understand my T, posted by Dinah on October 5, 2004, at 9:11:22
That's a very wise post, Dinah.
I suffer a lot of frustration because I hope for what is not possible. Not just in therapy, but in life ... that's the point I guess. It's much better now.
Thanks for that post.
ShortE
Posted by Speaker on October 5, 2004, at 17:00:09
In reply to Help! I don't understand my T, posted by Speaker on October 3, 2004, at 13:57:48
Trust-trust-trust! My T keeps telling me I need to trust more...but if he doesn't seem interested how do I trust more. When I told him how I felt about the video he said it sounds like I was just thinking about it too much...I can't believe I let him get away with that ;). He didn't answer me he just told me it was my thinking...why can't I say something at the time - it just doesn't sink in until I'm on my way home. I guess I can't just "tell him anything" like he says...well I can, but it won't make a difference it will just mean I think too much. Thanks for all of your input. I will address this again and I am at the point that I don't care if he watches the video. thanks again :)
Posted by Aphrodite on October 5, 2004, at 19:18:29
In reply to I went to my session today!, posted by Speaker on October 5, 2004, at 17:00:09
I think you're right that the issue now has nothing to do with the video. He owes you a better explanation. I often have a "delayed response" too and wish I could seize the moment. I hope you bring it up again. When do you go back?
Posted by Skittles on October 5, 2004, at 19:30:52
In reply to I went to my session today!, posted by Speaker on October 5, 2004, at 17:00:09
Speaker, you are so much more patient than I am. If I had gone in today in your place and gotten that response, I would have told him EXACTLY where he could shove that video!!
Posted by fallsfall on October 6, 2004, at 6:36:21
In reply to I went to my session today!, posted by Speaker on October 5, 2004, at 17:00:09
Because this continues to bother you, you really should bring it up again in therapy. It's those little things that keep eating at us that end up letting us get to the big things that are hidden. The fact that it bothers you when he thinks everything should be fine means that it is a good topic for therapy.
This is the end of the thread.
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