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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 2 to 26 of 26. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on August 14, 2004, at 13:10:57
In reply to Are relationships with T's real, or not?, posted by shrinking violet on August 14, 2004, at 12:49:07
I hope gardenergirl doesn't mind, but I'm going to give a link to a post she wrote me that clarified this topic so much with me that it almost instantly stopped being an obsessive thought for me. I now stop and think in any given situation about the framework she laid out, and I can usually work out how I feel or what's wrong.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20040303/msgs/321437.html
But, I have to say I worry a teensy bit about therapists who say those sort of things to their clients. It may well be true, but maybe it isn't necessary for them to say so because there's a possibility that it will cause feelings in the clients that are not realistically going to be fulfilled.
It's hard for me to say from my vantage point, because my therapist and I clearly have absolutely nothing in common personally but an interest in theology. We'd never be people who would hang out in our real lives. I really don't think that bothers me at all. It may make things a lot clearer and easier to separate. So it's not something that has come up in my therapy and maybe I don't have a clear understanding of the benefits of hearing that a therapist thinks a client is special...
Posted by crazymaisie on August 14, 2004, at 14:29:37
In reply to Are relationships with T's real, or not?, posted by shrinking violet on August 14, 2004, at 12:49:07
hi SV
I'm so glad you've started this topic, because your last thread kind of triggered alot of this for me, too. Your relationship with your T sounds alot like mine. And the issues you have with it sound so familiar, too. My T has told me that she doesn't often have this kind of relationship with a client and that she cares alot about me. I feel so close to her (especially when I'm there) but then I get so confused and think it's all just some ploy to make me open up more or something. Like you, I tell her it's not real and she insists that it is real, it's just a relationship with unusual constraints. Then I read (particularly on this board) about how often this sort of thing happens and I wonder why I'm so arrogant that I have to believe that I really am special to my T and that there's something more than 'transference' - whatever that really is - between us. Then I see her again and I realise that there is a real relationship there. I know that I have hurt her feelings on occasion, that I have really annoyed her. And I have felt let down by her, sometimes, too, and that all feels pretty 'real'.
I brought up the subject of when it's all over a few months ago, especially regarding not seeing her again. She said that we can wait and see how things are when the time comes and that we can work from there. Actually, that made me feel so much better. It was a validation that this is real and it has relaxed me so much more about the whole therapy thing. Of course, then I wonder if that's precisely why she said it!
It sucks, though, doesn't it. I seem to go round in circles about it. Also, I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has become friends with their T afterwards. Or is it simply not done?
SV, I think you should bring all this up with her, she sounds really open and honest and if you talk it to death (like I do) you might find you feel better about it (not that I'm totally there)
I'd love to hear what she says if you do bring it up.
CM
Posted by lucy stone on August 14, 2004, at 15:41:35
In reply to Are relationships with T's real, or not?, posted by shrinking violet on August 14, 2004, at 12:49:07
My T always tells me that the relationship is real. OTOH, he has very strict boundaries, more strict I think than many of the Ts others on this board have. For example, he would never tell me that we have a closer relationship that he has with other clients, even if it were true. He would say that every relatioship is different and ours is what is it. I have told him that I loved him and he has told me that he "thinks" he loves me. I don't think he would say that if the relationship wasn't real to him.
Posted by tinydancer on August 14, 2004, at 15:51:14
In reply to Are relationships with T's real, or not?, posted by shrinking violet on August 14, 2004, at 12:49:07
I don't think that this topic has been talked to the death, because it is so complex that I don't think it is possible to really draw any hard conclusions, thus everyone wandering around pensively scratching their chins on this one...
This is a HUGE issue for me. Almost not a day goes by that I don't ruminate over the meaning of our relationship, the importance of it, the realness of it.
I can try to summarize my T's opinions on this, and he has always been very forthright and clear about all feelings being real. After all, our feelings are based on perception, thus making our experience in the therapy room a real, concrete thing. Transference is a way over used word, and any good therapist will tell you that. (Mine did!)
I have sat and spent my entire hour discussing my feelings for my T and the fact that this has never happened to me before. I've never felt this strongly for any other person before, and certainly never someone who falls into the category of a "caretaker" (i.e. doctor, dentist, ect) In the last discussion we had, I told him how much it hurt. That I couldn't understand how I could like him so much, and feel like there was such a fantastic connection, and his response was, "Why can't I like you so much right back and feel the same towards you?" He has been trying to illustrate that just because we can't have a relationship outside of the therapy room doesn't make the relationship we do have less meaningful. With his help I've been trying to make my way through this, and there has been a lot of grieving and pain, but he has never been anything less than totally honest with me. I have been as honest as possible about how I feel because that is my way of getting through this-by better understanding my feelings, my reactions, my grieving and the pain I feel because I can't have him, I tell him all of it, and he helps me to sort through it all and try to look at it in all the possible existing ways.
The bottom line is that my T has always respected my feelings, he isn't afraid of my feelings, and has allowed me to have those feelings and bring them in full force into the therapy room. (One of his favorite things to say, "Bring it on!")
He has let me know that I'm special to him. And maybe I would never have gotten an answer if I hadn't asked. It is so important to be brutally honest with your T. I trust my T with my life, and I mean that in the truest sense possible. He knows what I entrust him with and treats that with the utmost compassion and kindness. At the same time, he is very clear about boundaries, amazingly without making me feel too rejected or ashamed. This has been a big issue for me, and truth be told, I don't know if there will ever come a day that I can say I'm free of these feelings, because for me these feelings sort of transcend anything I've felt before, and they haven't gone away, even after a year with him. If anything they have just gotten stronger, but I won't quit the therapy because of the connection we have-I see that as being the key, finally, after 15 years of therapy, to having a new level of unspoken trust and thus giving me the chance to live life again with stability on an everyday basis.I have no clue if I answered anything, I rambled a lot. Try doing a search under tinydancer, I have written a number of posts over the last 2 years about transference.
But the most important thing I want to stress is that the relationship is REAL. If you feel a connection with her, a closeness, you feel that because it is reciprocated! Do you feel close and feel connected to people that don't like you? Never. It's easy to question the nature of it when it seems so confusing, but try to believe in your T. She sounds great!
Posted by rubenstein on August 14, 2004, at 18:06:55
In reply to Re: Are relationships with T's real, or not?, posted by tinydancer on August 14, 2004, at 15:51:14
I am also so gald that you brought up this topic. Although I am a musician, a good portion of my being likes to be very logical and orderly about things. Thus the fact that I know that my therapist is supposed to act a certain way bothers me becuase I don't know if it is real or not. I always want to play it cool, and act as if the relationship doesn't matter as much as it does to me for some reason. I don't knwo if anyone saw "The Village" but in it one of the characters comments on how one's lack of actions sometimes means that they care and think about things more than if they actually act out and do something about it. I especially related to this, because I feel that I often am not as open about my feelings towards therapy and my therapist because of the fact that I care. IF one didn't care, one couldn't be hurt by the other's answer. Ahhh...but if one does care, to let the other person see that she cares and cares deeply could open that person up to hurt. Of course in the end, I have realized that it is the inaction in life taht actually causes the most pain, but have I done anything about it? no....Perhaps next session... He always wants to talk about the theraputic relationship, maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing to let him know that I actually cared. even if it will eventually end....
sorry for the rambling
Posted by shrinking violet on August 14, 2004, at 19:20:25
In reply to Are relationships with T's real, or not?, posted by shrinking violet on August 14, 2004, at 12:49:07
Hi everyone,
I just wanted to post a quick note to say THANK YOU to everyone who has replied so far (any anyone who will do so). I want to sit with this a bit and re-read some replies before writing a more lengthy response. I think I'm also going to print out one or two responses (and the link you gave was helpful, thank you Dinah -- and GG) and use them to write about this a bit. Because it's so confusing I think maybe writing it out will help me be more clear about it when/if I bring it up to my T (I know I need to, but I'm afraid).
I think, too, some attachment/abandonment wounding issues come into play here, as well: I wonder, if our relationship is as "real" and meaningful as it seems to be, then how will she be able to let me walk out of her office after our last session, knowing she'd most likely never see me again? When I think about it, it literally hurts....so I'm thinking I can't possibly mean *that* much to her if she can let me go (there isn't anything that states a T and client explicitly cannot have some sort of contact once therapy ends, right? Or is there? If not, and she chooses not to, well...actions speak louder than words, maybe).
Ah, I'm confused.
Thanks again. I'll keep reading, and I'll respond to direct replies soon.
SV
Posted by steelmagnolia25 on August 14, 2004, at 21:32:29
In reply to Re: Are relationships with T's real, or not?, posted by shrinking violet on August 14, 2004, at 19:20:25
SV,
I haven't posted here in a while, but your thread just resonated with me. I recently was forced to terminate with my T because he moved away. During our final sessions, we discussed our "relationship" quite a bit and some of what he said actually settled my feelings. Like you, I felt a strong connection to my T and there were many commonalities; I also knew things about him that I probably shouldn't have known, but he was kind enough to open up just a little when he thought it would be very helpful to me. What has really stayed with me were some statements that he made in our last session. Significantly, he said that he does care about me and that he will miss me, although in the most ethical sense. He said that he doesn't have the "luxury" of bringing unboundaried feelings into the room, and that if he did permit himself to experience those feelings that it would be oppressive for me. Now that we've been apart for a few weeks, I seem to appreciate those words even more. I recall at the time I was thinking to myself, somewhat cynically, "So you can just turn off certain feelings?" But now I truly appreciate that, in my own best interest, he maintained those boundaries even though I was so eager to cross them (not even sexually -- I would enjoy just being his friend!). And I don't consider the fact that he held back some of his personal feelings for the sake of therapy as something that renders the relationship "unreal." It just ensured that we had the optimal therapy relationship...KWIM?
Posted by gardenergirl on August 14, 2004, at 22:02:49
In reply to Re: Are relationships with T's real, or not?, posted by tinydancer on August 14, 2004, at 15:51:14
> After all, our feelings are based on perception, thus making our experience in the therapy room a real, concrete thing.
Tinydancer: I love this! What a great way to put it. And nice to see you, btw.
And Dinah, I'm glad my post helped. It was nice to see it again. Made me think about some stuff.
Thanks and take care,
gg
Posted by shrinking violet on August 15, 2004, at 20:35:26
In reply to Are relationships with T's real, or not?, posted by shrinking violet on August 14, 2004, at 12:49:07
I've decided to not bring this up on Tuesday. Well, no, maybe I will bring it up very generally (basically adding onto what she said last week, that our connection is valuable and I should acknowledge it). I'll probably argue with her and try to get her to admit it's a manipulation on her part, or at the very least some sort of common phenomena (dare I say transference.....I really don't think that's what this is, but who knows, and it would kill me to know it was). Anyway, we'll see how it goes. However, I won't admit how much she means to me (she knows I care about her, I think, but I'd never get into it any deeper than that), or how sad I am when I think of leaving her when I graduate and never seeing her again (or how I'm considering just offing myself afterwards, since I won't have much to look forward to after we terminate anyway). I still have at least four months with her anyway, so I can always break down and sob about leaving at some later point. :-/
Mostly, I'm afraid if I get into it too deep, and she realizes how I do feel connected to her, etc, that she'll freak out and back off. It's ok for her to say it to me as much as she wants, but I'm afraid as soon as I admit I feel the same, she'll either manipulate it in some way (if she isn't already) or/and back off and act differently.
I really just want to ignore the topic all together -- that remains a strong possibility also.
So, we'll see how it goes on Tuesday. Wish me luck (please please....).
Posted by shrinking violet on August 15, 2004, at 20:48:43
In reply to Re: Are relationships with T's real, or not?, posted by crazymaisie on August 14, 2004, at 14:29:37
>>> Like you, I tell her it's not real and she insists that it is real, it's just a relationship with unusual constraints. Then I read (particularly on this board) about how often this sort of thing happens and I wonder why I'm so arrogant that I have to believe that I really am special to my T and that there's something more than 'transference' - whatever that really is - between us. Then I see her again and I realise that there is a real relationship there. I know that I have hurt her feelings on occasion, that I have really annoyed her. And I have felt let down by her, sometimes, too, and that all feels pretty 'real'.
Yes, exactly! It is so confusing. I'd hate to think it is just transference, because it would negate everything that's happened between us (at least for me). And I don't think tha'ts what it is...but I still wonder, and I wonder if she thinks that's what it is....ack. I could drive myself nuts going in circles with this. Why can't I just believe what she says and the connection I feel IS there, instead of trying to analyze it to death and prove something that maybe isn't provable (I can't open her up and look inside her heart and mind and "see" what she thinks/feels toward me. And maybe that's what it would take for me to let this go).>> I brought up the subject of when it's all over a few months ago, especially regarding not seeing her again. She said that we can wait and see how things are when the time comes and that we can work from there. Actually, that made me feel so much better. It was a validation that this is real and it has relaxed me so much more about the whole therapy thing. Of course, then I wonder if that's precisely why she said it!
LOL, yep, we can always turn something on its back and watch it squirm. I'm glad what she said made you feel more reassured....I think they would make me feel the same way, too, although my T would never say that (she's said she hopes I'm good to her and write to her after I leave, but....it really isn't the same as hearing her voice or seeing her, is it?).
>> It sucks, though, doesn't it. I seem to go round in circles about it. Also, I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has become friends with their T afterwards. Or is it simply not done?I don't know...I've wondered this too, because if it IS possible, and she doesn't do it, then that causes me to question how real this connection is, you know? I don't think it's explicitly forbidden, but it isn't recommended. I think most T's don't, since it can be problematic if the client wants to return to therapy at some future time (although I couldnt' see my T even if I wanted to, b/c she's a Uni T and only available to students), and it can feel too unbalanced, having one person know so much about the other. But that wouldn't bother me, either. I do know some things about her, and what I don't know, I'm okay with. I mean, most relationships are unbalanced, aren't they? We don't always disclose the same amount about ourselves as other people might to us, and vice versa, yet we're still friends with them or married to or partners with them. The difference is, I think, is that even though those relationships might be unbalanced, we don't meet people knowing that it will be unbalanced by default.
Um, yeah, I've thought about this waaaay too much.
> I'd love to hear what she says if you do bring it up.Hm, me too. I'll post about it after my session this week, if anyone is interested (and if I actually bring it up...).
Thanks for responding.
Posted by shrinking violet on August 15, 2004, at 20:54:12
In reply to Re: Are relationships with T's real, or not?, posted by tinydancer on August 14, 2004, at 15:51:14
>>In the last discussion we had, I told him how much it hurt. That I couldn't understand how I could like him so much, and feel like there was such a fantastic connection, and his response was, "Why can't I like you so much right back and feel the same towards you?" He has been trying to illustrate that just because we can't have a relationship outside of the therapy room doesn't make the relationship we do have less meaningful.
Nice summary...I think that's what my T keeps trying to get me to believe. But then I question her motivation.....is it really true and she's trying to get me to acknowledge it also, or is she trying to get me to acknowledge it and feel it so she can use it (i.e. theoretically it might make me seek similar outside relationships....which, it wouldnt, but I know that's a commonly used technique in therapy).
>> The bottom line is that my T has always respected my feelings, he isn't afraid of my feelings, and has allowed me to have those feelings and bring them in full force into the therapy room. (One of his favorite things to say, "Bring it on!")
He sounds sweet. You're lucky to have him.
> But the most important thing I want to stress is that the relationship is REAL. If you feel a connection with her, a closeness, you feel that because it is reciprocated! Do you feel close and feel connected to people that don't like you? Never. It's easy to question the nature of it when it seems so confusing, but try to believe in your T. She sounds great!Wow, thank you for validating that for me. And she is great.
Thanks for your response!
>
Posted by shrinking violet on August 15, 2004, at 20:56:20
In reply to Re: Are relationships with T's real, or not?, posted by rubenstein on August 14, 2004, at 18:06:55
I think you should try to talk about this issue with your T, even though it might be hard, especially since he seems open to the discussion and willing to help (hm, maybe I should take my own advice, huh?).
Good luck to you, and thank you for writing.
Posted by shrinking violet on August 15, 2004, at 21:00:20
In reply to Re: Are relationships with T's real, or not?, posted by steelmagnolia25 on August 14, 2004, at 21:32:29
>> Now that we've been apart for a few weeks, I seem to appreciate those words even more. I recall at the time I was thinking to myself, somewhat cynically, "So you can just turn off certain feelings?" But now I truly appreciate that, in my own best interest, he maintained those boundaries even though I was so eager to cross them (not even sexually -- I would enjoy just being his friend!). And I don't consider the fact that he held back some of his personal feelings for the sake of therapy as something that renders the relationship "unreal." It just ensured that we had the optimal therapy relationship...KWIM?
I think I do. I'm glad he was able to comfort you and he helped to make leaving him easier. I still can't think about leaving my T, which will happen fairly soon (premature termination due to my graduating). I know I'll be a crumpled mess.
I'm not sure whether my T holds back anything.....maybe she does, I don't know. Sometimes I think she crosses the boundaries and does/says/feels things she shouldnt let herself given the context, but that's mostly speculation on my part. And even if she does, I think we can both handle it. Besides, I'm pretty screwed up now...I doubt she could do more damage! ;-P
Thanks. :)
>
>
Posted by tinydancer on August 18, 2004, at 13:03:02
In reply to Re: Are relationships with T's real, or not? » tinydancer, posted by shrinking violet on August 15, 2004, at 20:54:12
> Nice summary...I think that's what my T keeps trying to get me to believe. But then I question her motivation.....is it really true and she's trying to get me to acknowledge it also, or is she trying to get me to acknowledge it and feel it so she can use it (i.e. theoretically it might make me seek similar outside relationships....which, it wouldnt, but I know that's a commonly used technique in therapy).I believe its natural to question the motivations of any relationship, especially a complex one that only exists in one room, but yet is incredibly intimate. I feel that everyone has to come to terms with this in their own way. I doubt that the T is trying to make you believe anything, but rather to try to help you sort out your own feelings about it so you can get through this confusion about what her role is.
> He sounds sweet. You're lucky to have him.He is more than sweet, he is the most amazing man I have ever met in my entire life. A totally mind blowing creation of a human being, an inspiration just being in the room with him. Sigh....
> Wow, thank you for validating that for me. And she is great.
>
> Thanks for your response!Happy to help. Glad you agree that she is great. Good luck!
Posted by Lonely on August 19, 2004, at 0:23:58
In reply to Are relationships with T's real, or not?, posted by shrinking violet on August 14, 2004, at 12:49:07
Raising my hand here to say I've also experienced much of this.
One thing I learned outside of therapy is that therapy is in a sense UNreal A psychiatrist (at a lecture) mentioned a patient who ended up marrying her therapist (this apparently happens every once in a while). Her before-he-was-her-husband therapist was kind and attentive and listened carefully and presented very warm and kind attitudes towards her. After marriage she became quite disillusioned with the relationship. The frustration drove her back to therapy with a different therapist. After she married her first therapist, he laid around in bed, passed gas, and generally acted like she was far from the center of his universe!!!!
I guess my point is, that therapy has to have some special structures to it in order to create an environment where growth, insights, or what-have-you can happen. Obviously we can't have that much safety and support all the time - the world just isn't like that. Being mere mortals, feelings do develop as lives are shared and caring takes place. Perhaps in some senses and some instances it's sort of a spiritual thing for a little bit of time.
Way back in the "dark ages" I went to a counselor at my Univ who told me he was sexually attracted to me but he was always **totally** above board and as **ethical** and **honorable** as the day is long. I guess it was considered his responsibility at that time to tell me. I contacted him by mail after he left the Univ - he said I could. I've thought about him sometimes since but he would be about 88 and living somewhere around Phoenix now - probably not even alive. But, he said some really great things to me about myself including even negatives (I was/am really stubborn!) but it came across the right way and it gave me a teensy sense of importance. Nonetheless, the loss was devastating and I think it negatively affected my college work. That's the not-so-healthy part.
Now I find therapy too contrived and therefore phony and the pain of loss, especially the therapist that died, makes me wish I had never experienced that relationship at all. I guess I still feel I want to ease her pain - do something for her.
Posted by Lulula on August 19, 2004, at 6:34:11
In reply to Re: Are relationships with T's real, or not? » shrinking violet, posted by Lonely on August 19, 2004, at 0:23:58
In your post, last sentence, you say "ease her pain ..." who are you referring to? Your therapist? It is the T's job to ease your pain and not visa versa.
Posted by Susan47 on August 19, 2004, at 8:27:41
In reply to Re: question for lonely, posted by Lulula on August 19, 2004, at 6:34:11
Lonely, thanks for sharing the story. I think there was a good lesson in it; we need to remember that therapists are people too and need TLC. A relationship in a therapist's office *is* unreal.
I can't imagine how devastating it must have been for you to lose a therapist to death. How on earth did you deal with that?
Posted by Lonely on August 19, 2004, at 10:59:34
In reply to Re: question for lonely, posted by Lulula on August 19, 2004, at 6:34:11
My therapist had a terrible ravaging disease she acquired through a blood transfusion. Ironically, my husband has the same disease but not as severely. The treatment was obviously making her very sick - tremors, memory loss, spaceiness, extreme fatigue, dehydration and probably many more. I know she had had many years of ill health from a serious digestive disorder (I've had a much milder version myself). She never admitted much of the pain and suffering she had but it was obvious to me and I knew a little bit through a mutual friend.
Yes, it is the therapist's job to ease my pain, but I think that in the extreme case I just described that sometimes things are a bit different, in fact. She was always concerned about "boundaries" and I was so frustrated that I was quite rude. It was hard to show the compassion I felt when it seemed like the rules of the game weren't exactly functional. Perhaps she should have helped me to someone else or admitted what she was going through; as it was, it was just sort've like tip-toeing around with a lot of denial.
> In your post, last sentence, you say "ease her pain ..." who are you referring to? Your therapist? It is the T's job to ease your pain and not visa versa.
Posted by Lonely on August 19, 2004, at 11:20:00
In reply to Re: question for lonely, posted by Susan47 on August 19, 2004, at 8:27:41
We had a mutual friend who told me that "C" (my therapist) was in the hospital and not expected to live. He urged me to go see her and I really wanted to but was paralyzed by fear that she would be angry with me. I really didn't know what to do. I did go to the hospital but didn't see her as visitation was being cut off due to her condition.
Five days later she was dead. Again, the mutual friend notified me of her death - by email. Another friend of the T's, whom I had met briefly but didn't really know, called me at my husband's suggestion (I cried for hours straight) and we talked. That helped but it wasn't enough. I really wanted to know if she knew that I really did care about her. I guess she did.
Thankfully, they had a memorial for her that I attended. There I ran into another therapist I knew who pointed out people who had been members of C's family. That helped. The mutual friend also let everyone at the memorial know that I was looking for another therapist. At the social time after the memorial - cookies & coffee - I met a few other people there. Also met the beloved son and his wife. I could see so much of "C" in her son. In a way, "C" lives on. He hugged me and thanked me for taking the time out to come as did his wife. I talked to "C's" "ex" also briefly.
Afterward, I made email contact with "C"'s old friend who sent me a couple of photos. That was so good. One is sitting on my credenza now ... I still look at it every day. The newspaper had an online memorial area for "C" - it seems to be fairly common now so look for it if you or someone else has lost a loved one. It's a place to write your condolences and memories of the deceased. I think it's just part of the package of having the obituary put in the newspaper. I saw several other of my T's friends' comments and some things became clearer to me about "C." I saved all that stuff.
And, finally, I cried, and cried, and wanted to be wtih her. *Not* suicidal ... just wanted to be with her. I still cry sometimes. I also played certain hymns - "Take My Hand Precious Lord" and some others. "C" was a spiritual person but not religious. The hymns were my way of coping - my way of commiting her to my higher power.
> Lonely, thanks for sharing the story. I think there was a good lesson in it; we need to remember that therapists are people too and need TLC. A relationship in a therapist's office *is* unreal.
> I can't imagine how devastating it must have been for you to lose a therapist to death. How on earth did you deal with that?
Posted by Susan47 on August 19, 2004, at 13:25:46
In reply to Re: question for lonely, posted by Lonely on August 19, 2004, at 11:20:00
Lonely,
Thank you for sharing this story. It makes everything you've said about "C" very poignant.
Posted by shrinking violet on August 19, 2004, at 19:30:32
In reply to Re: question for lonely, posted by Lonely on August 19, 2004, at 11:20:00
((((lonely)))
I'm so sorry to hear of your loss, and how difficult it was for you.
My T tends to be very relaxed with me in terms of things she says and showing and telling me how she feels about me and how she views our relationship ("genuine," "caring," and "real" are the words she used last session). I've given her cards to thank her, and recently I gave her one and told her that she means a lot to me. She put it on her desk, and it was still there when I came in the following week. She often uses examples to illustrate points (as most T's do) and sometimes I wonder if it's her she's referring to. For example, last session, she was talking about how in her life she's had people she's tried to talk to about stuff but she's never truly felt understood (by friends) or people try to give her advice, etc and / or the relationship is temporary even though it isn't known at the time (i.e. romantic relationships), so then she was talking about self-soothing and how she's pretty good at that, and how when "you" (the general "you") are awake at 4 AM and cry in "your" pillow, you somehow get yourself back to sleep. I wondered if she's ever done that (cry in the middle of the night) and I felt so so badly, like I wish I could have helped her then, etc. Also, my T is in a wheelchair due to an accident from her teens (she's now 48, going on 49 next month). She has referred to it generally, but never got into detail although I think it's something I'm going to ask her about at some point (I've been seeing her for over a year). I often wonder how she lives with something so permanent and difficult, and it makes me sad. I wish I could make it better. Also, she tells me when her mom is sick, etc, and although I express my concern and wishes for things to get better, I still wish I could help in some way. Whenever my T feels like she has "failed" me (her word at one point) or expresses some sort of self-criticism, I try to make her feel better in whatever way I can. She often says I try to take care of her. If she only knew half of what I felt/thought, she'd know how true that statement is! Somehow, too, I think that she kind of likes it when I do that, just from the way she responds to it (and at one point she asked for it).
Yeah, T / client relationships are difficult, to say the least. But I still love my T (although if I could undo meeting her, I probably would). *sigh*
Thank you all for sharing your experiences.
Posted by shrinking violet on August 19, 2004, at 19:44:48
In reply to Are relationships with T's real, or not?, posted by shrinking violet on August 14, 2004, at 12:49:07
Well, I won't go into too much detail here since last session really sucked (longish story) and we didn't get to talk too much about our relationship. She did say that she views it as: "genuine, caring, and real" (that's verbatim).
Although I think she meant that it's genuine, caring and real in the frame of the therapy, which is fine, I guess but.....I get confused because somehow it seems like she's talking beyond that, even though I know she probably couldn't be. I think I"m going to talk a bit about this more next session because I've written down a bunch of stuff that I've been withholding for various reasons (which I know is getting in the way and adds to my defensiveness, which makes her think I'm angry at her and /or being there (even though I'm usually not) and she tends to react to it (she acts like it bothers her personally somehow, but I don't know, I could be reading more into it than is there. I just think that sometimes, for a T, she reacts to things too much and in a way that doesn't seem like it's totally therapeutic).
She also asked me something I didn't think was quite fair:T: Would I be someone you could see as having as a friend?
Me: (speechless for a second)
T: Well, maybe that isn't a fair question....NO, that WASN'T AT ALL a fair question. How could she ask me that, knowing it probably could never happen, and knowing how close I am to her and that I'm going to lose her in a few months? I managed to say that I didn't think friend was the right word (I don't really envision us as ever being friends in the traditional sense.....more of a mentor/mentee thing, maybe, but it's hard to define), and before I could finish the thought, she said, "But you could see me fitting in your life in some way," and I said yes.
I don't know, it just bothered me that she asked that. I don't know if she was curious, or if she was trying to boost her ego a little, or what, but....it just felt like she was pouring salt into the wound. :(
Thanks to those who responded, I appreciate your input.
Posted by Lonely on August 19, 2004, at 21:24:31
In reply to she said it's real, and asked...., posted by shrinking violet on August 19, 2004, at 19:44:48
> our >relationship. She did say that she views it >as: "genuine, caring, and real" (that's >verbatim).
I'm hearing those words quite a bit on this board but can't remember my T (the one who died) ever actually using them. She did ask me in a demanding way once if there wasn't a special bond between us. Then, before I said anything she said "and if you don't say yes I'm going to throw you out right now." She wasn't kidding either. I said "yes." And it was true - there was a very special and powerful bond. She said on another occassion that I would never be the same after going through that relationship.
>
> Although I think she meant that it's genuine, >caring and real in the frame of the therapy, >which is fine, I guess but.....I get confused >because somehow it seems like she's talking >beyond that, even though I know she probably >couldn't be. I'm angry at her and /or >being there (even though I'm usually not) and >she tends to react to it (she acts like it >bothers her personally somehow, but I don't >know, I could be reading more into it than is >there. I just think that sometimes, for a T, she >reacts to things too much and in a way that >doesn't seem like it's totally therapeutic).If I'm putting the right spin on what you're saying, I have had similiar experiences with my T also (again, the one who died). On the one head there were all these "boundaries" but on the other hand there were direct references to what we would some day after therapy. And I know I'm not imagining it because a mutual friend referenced something like that too. But, I also reacted in anger because it seemed like when I showed, verbally, my caring and frustration that it was rejected. Too many mixed messages.
>
> She also asked me something I didn't think was quite fair: and before I could finish the thought, she >said, "But you could see me fitting in your life >in some way," and I said yes.
>
> I don't know, it just bothered me that she asked that. I don't know if she was curious, or if she was trying to boost her ego a little, or what, but....it just felt like she was pouring salt into the wound. :(
Maybe it was a little bit of both. I didn't have quite exactly the same experience because she never asked me how I felt about her as a friend but she did often ask me about our "relationship" and how I perceived her. I think, too, that my T knew she might be facing a life as an invalid or semi-invalid some day. Although she had many friends I don't think she had anyone THAT close and I know that underneath it all she was very frightened. Since your T has had a very serious injury she might have some of those same feelings. But, I doubt that she will admit although I'm very willing to be wrong!
Hmmm, do other board readers/posters hear that from their therapists???
Maybe sick and/or disabled therapists would be an interesting topic here at some point. By "sick" I'm referring to people who have a physical disease. I think most therapists have had psychological problems of their own or they would not have gone into the field. That's what my T told me. She also was starting to suggest I consider it.
Posted by Susan47 on August 19, 2004, at 22:42:04
In reply to Re: she said it's real, and asked.... » shrinking violet, posted by Lonely on August 19, 2004, at 21:24:31
One of your last comments about why therapists get into the field... problems of their own... I think most intelligent, introspective types will have them. I'm beginning to love the idea of T's.
Posted by gardenergirl on August 20, 2004, at 0:36:03
In reply to Re: she said it's real, and asked.... » shrinking violet, posted by Lonely on August 19, 2004, at 21:24:31
>
> Hmmm, do other board readers/posters hear that from their therapists???
>
> Maybe sick and/or disabled therapists would be an interesting topic here at some point. By "sick" I'm referring to people who have a physical disease. I think most therapists have had psychological problems of their own or they would not have gone into the field. That's what my T told me. She also was starting to suggest I consider it.I can't say that my T has ever said anything like that. When we talk about the relationship, it is purely within the context of therapy. But I know that as I approach termination, I will want to talk about grief I know I will have that I can never be just a colleague or friend to him. If he weren't my T, I know I would like him and enjoy him as a colleage. Next year I will even be training at a site similar to where I see him, so he would make an excellent mentor. I already feel this loss, and I know I will need to process it with him fully before I can terminate.
As far as T's with physical illness, we talked about this in school a bit. Illness or diability is something the T brings to the relationship however much they want to be a blank slate. For a T who knows that he or she is dying, that is a real therapy issue to be dealt with. I would imagine it might be quite a conflict for the T internally to be able to manage it for themselves but also therapeutically for their clients. I really don't know how I would do it, but I suppose that right now I lean towards the side of disclosing a serious illness if I thought it would affect therapy with the client. But it has the potential for introducing dynamics that may not otherwise be present...caretaking, grief and loss, death, etc.
Just my thoughts in the middle of the night...
gg
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