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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 38 to 62 of 68. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 15:58:46
In reply to Re: transference » dragonfly25, posted by jane d on January 1, 2004, at 15:08:11
Posted by jane d on January 1, 2004, at 16:03:01
In reply to Re: transference, posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 15:57:59
>
> But Jane, the reason it's helpful is that we don't have the insight to know we do it until our therapists point it out to us. There's no need to encourage it to a greater extent than we already do it. But if we do it in real life, it's useful also to do it in therapy so that our therapists know about it.
>
> Or at least I think that's the theory.
>
> (And I'm using "we" merely as a global we.)Wouldn't it just be easier to say, when they ask why you came to therapy, "hey I'm screaming at everyone and I think I'm reacting disproportionately". And if you didn't volunteer it to ask "do you ever do this"? Save so much time and you wouldn't have to get into whether your therapist really was a jerk or you just thought she was. :)
Jane
Posted by naiad on January 1, 2004, at 16:06:52
In reply to Re: I saw her today » naiad, posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 15:32:49
I accepted, really and truly, no kdding myself, the truth that a romance is impossible. I also accepted that I HATED not getting anything back from him (no return of "love" -- I put the word in quotes because I don't think it is really love but I don't know what else to call it.)
This is not easy and for me it has added to my depression. I am grieving over the lost fantasy.
Take care and best of luck.
Posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 16:12:25
In reply to Re: I saw her today » crushedout, posted by naiad on January 1, 2004, at 16:06:52
The problem is that ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. I mean, unfortunately, as we all know, Ts do sleep with clients. And it's almost always a disaster. But it happens. So I can't convince myself it's IMPOSSIBLE, although I admit it's unlikely she would do that. But the reason Dinah (and others) are so concerned is because it's NOT impossible.Right?
So, I have to decide that I don't WANT it. Because it would hurt me. Because I deserve better, etc. etc. Deciding it's impossible won't help, because I just know it's not.
I'm sorry you're more depressed. I think I know how you feel. I feel pretty sad myself.
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 16:15:27
In reply to Re: transference » Dinah, posted by jane d on January 1, 2004, at 16:03:01
> Wouldn't it just be easier to say, when they ask why you came to therapy, "hey I'm screaming at everyone and I think I'm reacting disproportionately". And if you didn't volunteer it to ask "do you ever do this"? Save so much time and you wouldn't have to get into whether your therapist really was a jerk or you just thought she was. :)
>
> JaneYou would be surprised how many people don't realize they're screaming at everyone. :) And wouldn't recognize it unless they saw it pointed out to them right under their nose, and even then might deny it outright. Sigh. I think my work involves people too much. I get disillusioned.
But I forgot the other reason to encourage transference. Positive transferences can encourage compliance with therapy. And, in my own therapy, the positive therapy is used to create a corrective emotional experience and a secure base (or good enough mother or whatever). But now I'm getting waaay out of my depth. :) I think I prefer to think of it as magic and not examine it too closely.
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 16:18:18
In reply to Re: I saw her today » naiad, posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 16:12:25
Ok, maybe it's not impossible to get her to sleep with you. But it is impossible for it to turn out well, or be what you want. Or so close to impossible as to make no difference.
The therapist usually gets scared or ashamed and ends up hurting the client.
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 16:35:03
In reply to Re: transference » Dinah, posted by jane d on January 1, 2004, at 16:03:01
Which reminds me of the sort of transference I forgot to mention. The sort where you take everything you need, and transfer all those qualities onto a poor hapless and clueless therapist. If you're lucky they don't do too much to screw up your carefully constructed illusions.
And one day hopefully you won't need this imaginary safe place anymore and you graduate from therapy.
And she lived happily ever after.
THE END
lol.
(Sorry for the silliness, but it does seem like a fairytale sometimes.)
Posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 16:42:21
In reply to Re: I saw her today » crushedout, posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 16:18:18
Yes, Dinah, that's precisely what I have to remember, and have been reminding myself for awhile. But I'm still stuck with the problem that I feel so willing to destroy my life just for a night with her. I guess I need to work on that in therapy. Why would I be willing to do that to myself? She can't possibly be worth it, but it feels to me like she is.
And, there's always that possibility of that fantasy where it does work out all perfectly, even though that never seems to happen to anyone else. I must have a really swelled head to think I'll be the exception. But I can't help but hope it's true.
> Ok, maybe it's not impossible to get her to sleep with you. But it is impossible for it to turn out well, or be what you want. Or so close to impossible as to make no difference.
>
> The therapist usually gets scared or ashamed and ends up hurting the client.
>
Posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 16:44:33
In reply to Re: I saw her today, posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 16:42:21
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 16:47:49
In reply to Re: I saw her today, posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 16:42:21
Can you try altering your fantasies to be more realistic? Don's stop with the sleeping with her. And make the sleeping with her less perfect in your fantasies. Have her pass gas or be really lousy in bed (which is as likely as not you know).
On the rare occasions when i want my therapist to be my real mommy, that's what I do. And I always realize that while he makes a great therapist mommy he'd make an awful real one.
It helps me...
Posted by dragonfly25 on January 1, 2004, at 16:51:56
In reply to Re: transference » dragonfly25, posted by jane d on January 1, 2004, at 15:08:11
thanks everyone , that was helpful. i totally get it know.
dragonfly
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 2, 2004, at 1:46:12
In reply to I saw her today, posted by crushedout on December 31, 2003, at 14:50:32
> I also lent her my copy of "In Session."
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by Elle2021 on January 2, 2004, at 7:59:28
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » Elle2021, posted by dragonfly25 on January 1, 2004, at 9:39:57
"if i ever had romantic feelings for my doctor i would stop the therapy- is that a bad thing? but just b/c i would think it would interfere with MY issues that i came to him for."
It seems to me like it would interfere with the issues you came to him for, but apparently, for some it helps. If I experienced erotic transference, I would automatically try to become "Perfect," and my problems would disappear. Someone I'm attracted to can NOT know the real me, or that something might be wrong with me. So, it would shut down the theraputic process. But fortunately, I'm not attracted to my pdoc that way. But, I love it when he treats me like a daughter. It feels safe. I watched a biography (E! True Hollywood Story) on Dr. Phil, and it said that he said that he hated listening to all his patients complain. I wonder if thats what my doctor thinks about me. I hope not.
Elle
Posted by Dinah on January 2, 2004, at 8:09:38
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » dragonfly25, posted by Elle2021 on January 2, 2004, at 7:59:28
You're joking! Ugh. I don't think I'll watch him anymore (not that I have much - he doesn't come on Nickelodeon). How awful to instill shame into millions of therapy clients.
Posted by naiad on January 2, 2004, at 8:35:56
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » dragonfly25, posted by Elle2021 on January 2, 2004, at 7:59:28
"If I experienced erotic transference, I would automatically try to become "Perfect," and my problems would disappear."
THere is certainly that element of conflict. Get good therapy vs. get the Therapsit! Even though I tried to put my best self on display for my T because of the erotic transference, that didn't last for long. I couldn't keep up the mask.
I guess the reason I haven't terminatd is because I think I'm suppossed to be getting a benefit. So far the only one I can identify is that even though I long to have a romance with him, I have accepted that I cannot. I hate getting nothing back from him. Transferance comes in this way -- I never got the love from my mother that I wanted. My T is like her in that no matter how perfect I make myself try to be, I STLL get nothing back (at least not what I want)...the new news is that I understand on a visceral level how hurtful that is. Even though I have been aware of how I experienced my mother's parenting style as being cold and withholding, I didn't know how I felt about it. I didn't understand how painful it was. Unfortunately, having made this link has not made me feel much better about my life.
I am still in therapy 101 -- trying to figure out how to be a human. So hard.
Posted by naiad on January 2, 2004, at 8:39:37
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » Elle2021, posted by Dinah on January 2, 2004, at 8:09:38
Not to defend Dr. Phil, but I think that was an honest statement about *him* not his clients. He was admitting that he's not good at individual therapy.
Whenever I worry out loud about boring my T, he says "this is not about me." I love that...
Posted by pegasus on January 2, 2004, at 17:13:29
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this???, posted by naiad on January 2, 2004, at 8:39:37
>
> Whenever I worry out loud about boring my T, he says "this is not about me." I love that...Really?! Or are you being sarchastic? I hate it when he says anything like that. Because for me, sometimes it *is* about how he feels. And when he says it's not, it's like he's decided to ignore half of what's going on in the room.
I understand that they're supposed to be there to help you and not to gratify their own needs. But if I'm worrying aloud about being boring, I'd feel a heck of a lot better if he said he wasn't bored than if he said I shouldn't worry about him. The latter makes me think I hit the nail on the head. And that it's "not appropriate" to talk about that, so he won't admit it. Sigh.
Posted by DaisyM on January 2, 2004, at 18:05:04
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? naiad, posted by pegasus on January 2, 2004, at 17:13:29
> Whenever I worry out loud about boring my T, he says "this is not about me." I love that...
>Really?! Or are you being sarchastic? I hate it when he says anything like that. Because for me, sometimes it *is* about how he feels. And when he says it's not, it's like he's decided to ignore half of what's going on in the room.
<When I've said something like that, My Therapist replied that he wished I'd bore him...that would mean I wasn't dealing with so much Sh** still! And we both laughed. Then he usually asks if he has done anything to indicate that he is bored...and THEN I wonder if I DID pick up on something... I try not to ask stuff I really don't want answers too anymore.
Posted by naiad on January 3, 2004, at 4:45:19
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? naiad, posted by pegasus on January 2, 2004, at 17:13:29
Pegasus,
Actually I was not being sarcastic. I did love it when my T told me that "he was very interested in blah, blah, blah and that its not about me, anyway." The feeling this response evoked in me was one of being cared for. For whatever reason, I suddenly felt at ease --supported and cradled. Maybe it was just the circumstance.
You make excellent points, though. There *is* a tension in the room about what they think of us but are not saying. Thats when I want to turn the tables and ask the questions. Another of my T's statements (this one did NOT please me, however) "This is not a symetrical realtionship" I often try to shift the balance of power.
Posted by naiad on January 3, 2004, at 4:47:06
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? naiad, posted by naiad on January 3, 2004, at 4:45:19
above is for Pegasus
Posted by Elle2021 on January 3, 2004, at 5:18:06
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » Elle2021, posted by Dinah on January 2, 2004, at 8:09:38
> You're joking! Ugh. I don't think I'll watch him anymore (not that I have much - he doesn't come on Nickelodeon).
Hehe, I love Nick at Nite!
How awful to instill shame into millions of therapy clients.
Tell me about it! I refuse to watch him anymore. I used to think he was so intelligent and kind. I really hope my pdoc doesn't think I'm a complainer...I know I am though!
Elle
Posted by Elle2021 on January 3, 2004, at 5:22:27
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » Elle2021, posted by naiad on January 2, 2004, at 8:35:56
>Even though I have been aware of how I experienced my mother's parenting style as being cold and withholding, I didn't know how I felt about it.
My dad's parenting style was pretty cold and distant too. Later, in my teenage years it seemed on occasion he tried to be affectionate. I had no idea how to react or what to do. I still have trouble reciprocating affection with others. I didn't really learn how.
Elle
Posted by Still Hurting on January 4, 2004, at 3:48:06
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » Elle2021, posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 23:34:52
Wow crushedout,
please tell me you are imagining all this? I remember telling my therapist that when sessions were all about our relationship and not about my issues, that's when I knew we were in trouble.And boy, you sound as if you are swimming with the whales. You are in deep crap.
Truthfully, what was going through your therapist's mind to give you a cd with love lyrics on it? Secondly, why would she tell you that she finds you attractive. Those two actions played into your transference.
See there's nothing wrong with transference, but the one in authority has to be strong. Obviously for whatever reason she is not strong.
Straight up ask her if she feels strong enough to deal with your transference. If she doesn't then let her go. If she does, then both of you refirm your boundaries.
I loved my therapist too. Yet my love for her didn't want to see her lose her job. And this drama sounds as though it's heading in that direction.
I wanted to kiss her, hold her, etc. But she had to be strong when I wasn't. Your's isn't.
Crossing professional boundaries happens all the time. Just don't embarrass her if she is weak.It is time you guys really talk. Talk while you can. There may come a time when talking is out and you appear for therapy and she's eradicated you as her client. Then you would really be hurt. Talk now!!
I know you want her to love you. But unfortunately as clients we can't have both. See what she wants. Then go from there.
Unfortunately boundaries in your therapeutic relationship seem so far broken that I don't know if you can ever repair them and remain her client.
Posted by Dinah on January 4, 2004, at 9:46:20
In reply to Re: I saw her today, posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 16:42:21
I have to confess that I'm out of my depth when it comes to intense erotic feelings. I can't even recall the last time I was attracted sexually to a real life (as opposed to on screen) person. And even then it wasn't all that strong...
Posted by crushedout on January 4, 2004, at 11:18:47
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this???, posted by Still Hurting on January 4, 2004, at 3:48:06
Still Hurting,
No, I'm not imagining it. Until recently, I thought I was imagining that maybe she liked me, too, and now I think maybe I see that it was real. I mean, on some level, she clearly must have "feelings" for me, even though I doubt they are as intense as mine for her (although who the heck knows?).
You may be right that I'm in deep crap. Did you read my follow up, when I talked to her about all this?
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20031221/msgs/295149.html
That gives me some hope that we can work through this. But I think you're right that I need more information. She said she was "enjoying" my romantic feelings toward her, but exactly how much was she enjoying it? I mean, if she really has any romantic feelings toward me, I think that could interfere with her objectivity as my therapist, and might make it hard for me to tell her everything the way I'm supposed to. For example, now I want to bring in some pictures to show her, and in order to do that we'd have to sit on the couch together, but I'm afraid she would think I was hitting on her if I asked her to sit next to me. Or that maybe the attraction would be too strong for us to be that physically close. I dunno. I shouldn't have to be thinking about stuff like this, though.
I kind of also want to ask her what's going on in her personal life that she became so invested in my feelings for her? I know she probably shouldn't tell me, but I mean, it seems like she must not be getting the kind of appreciation and love she needs from her husband if my feelings toward her became so important to her that she avoided dealing with them. What do you think?
I really like your idea that if I really love and care about her, I should not want her to lose her job. That may be something I can hold onto to let go of this fantasy of mine. That way I can think of myself as some kind of selfless hero in this whole mess: love transcending my selfish lustful desires, blah blah blah. No, really, I like it.
Thank you so much for your post.
crushed
> Wow crushedout,
> please tell me you are imagining all this? I remember telling my therapist that when sessions were all about our relationship and not about my issues, that's when I knew we were in trouble.
>
> And boy, you sound as if you are swimming with the whales. You are in deep crap.
>
> Truthfully, what was going through your therapist's mind to give you a cd with love lyrics on it? Secondly, why would she tell you that she finds you attractive. Those two actions played into your transference.
>
> See there's nothing wrong with transference, but the one in authority has to be strong. Obviously for whatever reason she is not strong.
>
> Straight up ask her if she feels strong enough to deal with your transference. If she doesn't then let her go. If she does, then both of you refirm your boundaries.
>
> I loved my therapist too. Yet my love for her didn't want to see her lose her job. And this drama sounds as though it's heading in that direction.
>
> I wanted to kiss her, hold her, etc. But she had to be strong when I wasn't. Your's isn't.
> Crossing professional boundaries happens all the time. Just don't embarrass her if she is weak.
>
> It is time you guys really talk. Talk while you can. There may come a time when talking is out and you appear for therapy and she's eradicated you as her client. Then you would really be hurt. Talk now!!
>
> I know you want her to love you. But unfortunately as clients we can't have both. See what she wants. Then go from there.
>
> Unfortunately boundaries in your therapeutic relationship seem so far broken that I don't know if you can ever repair them and remain her client.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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