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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Pfinstegg on August 11, 2003, at 10:25:05
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist » stebby, posted by Dinah on August 10, 2003, at 20:53:43
Just my opinion-I think having a strong transference- of whatever kind- is important and necessary for changes to take place in us. I have an intense and powerful one- partly loving and dependent, partly full of rage and hate, partly full of.. everything you can imagine! I don't think it's within our power to try and lessen it, or arbitrarily "work it through". My analyst has said that I need to have the most intense experience with him that I possibly can; we work on it together, and in fact talk about the moment-to-moment changes in my feelings about him a great deal of the time. I find that even harder and more frightening than recounting frightening or shameful episodes from my past. Sometimes he points out analogies to relationships in my past, but often he doesn't- we do know where they come from by now. He also sometimes reveals what his reactions are- what feelings my feelings have caused him to have.
So, I think trying to lessen or diminish a transference is not the way to go. Instead, embracing it and allowing it to happen fully opens the way for us to have new "objects" in our lives, both new "self-objects" within ourselves which are more benign than our old ones, and new outside objects, which are are also more loving and uncritical than our original parental ones were. But, for this to happen, we do need therapists who are skilled at working with transferences, and who fully understand the therapeutic potential which they have.
As to really "working it through". ask me a few years from now- I have no idea yet how that happens!
Pfinstegg
Posted by Dinah on August 11, 2003, at 10:34:14
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist » Dinah, posted by stebby on August 11, 2003, at 10:02:03
I guess that's where I'm really lucky. I don't want anything from him beyond the therapeutic hours. Twice a week and every once in a while when I'm upset maybe an extra. I don't know much about his non therapist self, and I don't even know if I'd like him. The little he's revealed about himself would indicate we don't have a whole lot in common.
Perhaps I'm fooling myself a bit. Perhaps on some level I hope he's a bit fond of me, but it's not really necessary. During the early years of our therapy I know he didn't much like me, but he still was a good therapist.
Once I admitted all of my feelings to him, we talked about all of this a whole lot. For a long time he was angry with me for what he thought was my demands for forever therapy. He finally figured out that I was expressing my fears, not demanding anything from him. And now at this point, he's at least temporarily capitulated. He says I can come to therapy for as long as I want to. He won't fire me. He can't rule out the possibility that he'll move or die, but short of that, he seems resigned to having me as a "lifer". Now that he's accepted that part of me, and answers with amusement instead of anger at my now occasional displays of fear of losing him, it takes up a whole lot less time in therapy. We're able to work on other things now. Perhaps he still hopes that I'll outgrow him, but he's sensitive enough not to say so or to in any way suggest that one day he'll abandon me. I guess he probably will anyway; everyone does don't they, whether or not they intend to. But I'll deal with that when it happens. Right now I'm just happy that he's quit being angry about it.
Posted by Dinah on August 11, 2003, at 10:36:21
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist, posted by Pfinstegg on August 11, 2003, at 10:25:05
And as always, your view of things is so centering.
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 11, 2003, at 11:26:17
In reply to Re: I really do like your analyst. :) » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on August 11, 2003, at 10:36:21
Thank you Dinah. I know I am very lucky to have him. Hope you are feeling a lot better than the last few days. It seems to me that it would be very painful to have to cut down your twice-seekly sessions now- I hope you can avoid doing that.
One thought: I am like you- I can't take any of the SSRI's without getting completely flat and apathetic. However, when some depression returned four months after having TMS, I began Lexapro 10 mg., and I have found that it is quite different- it's a good AD, and smooths out my hopeless times, and, for me. it is a bit activating without making me more anxious than I already am. I've noticed the huge range of responses to Lexapro- from excellent to awful- on the med board, but just thought I'd mention that it's probably the best AD I've taken- I still feel like me on it. Have you considered trying it? Since you are so sensitive to meds. if you do try it, you might want to start at 5 mg.,or even 2.5. Anyway, just a thought.
Pfinstegg
Posted by Dinah on August 11, 2003, at 13:29:18
In reply to Re: I really do like your analyst. :) » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on August 11, 2003, at 11:26:17
Thank you, Pfinstegg.
I am feeling somewhat better now, because I've decided to go back into Scarlett O'Hara mode and worry about this tomorrow (and renewing that vow daily). Of course, that's what got me into this mess to begin with. But I just can't handle it all at once.
So I'm not spending money, I'm working as much as I can, and if I run out of money in my checking account, I guess I won't have a second session that week. (One session per week is paid for by funds set aside, so I don't have to worry about it dropping below that.)
It's the best I can do right now, I think.
Posted by stebby on August 11, 2003, at 19:07:26
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist, posted by Pfinstegg on August 11, 2003, at 10:25:05
Pfinstegg..an insightful message..I think you are right. I cannot stop this reaction, maybe embracing it is the way to go. God knows I have tried to stop it, I think this is one of the reasons I cut. I just find the reaction so disruptive to my life... I can't concentrate on much else, yet I live in this dual life. Know one would ever suspect that I have these issues. I guess I jsut need to be as open and honest as I can to my therapist and hope that she can deal. At this point I suspect that she can. By the way I also am on lexapro 10 mg and have found it to be better than other SSRI's as well.
Posted by Still Hurting on August 12, 2003, at 0:30:54
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis » Morgen, posted by Dinah on July 26, 2003, at 18:55:21
Well, i'm glad for you that your therapist didn't terminate you like mine's did. Shit it hurts so bad. If transference is so common, than why didn't someone warn me about it. I loved my therapist because she appeared to be everything i needed with her warm smiles and twinkling eyes. I didn't mean to embrace her the way i did. Well, hell she found out and kicked me to the curve so quick. I don't know if she was supposed to have worked me through it, but all I know is that she booted me and now all i have is a letter from her boss telling me to leave her alone or he will call the police on me. Damn, i went there to deal with drama, not to create more focking drama.
Posted by Still Hurting on August 12, 2003, at 1:02:30
In reply to A New Breakthrough in the Transference Crisis?, posted by Morgen on July 27, 2003, at 2:32:02
Morgen, i just have one question.
Are you sure that i'm not your long lost sister?
My god, you have given me so many laughs tonight as i sit and read your posts. my god. I've done everything you have done. I have found myself at 2am in the morning listening to my therapist's voice mail. I have bought a toe ring like her. I've gotten a tattoe like her's. I've put her name in the search engines to find her info. I've put her children's names in the search engines. Are you sure that we haven't watched just a bit too many mystery movies. Well it's nice to see that somebody out there is just a bit as screwed up as me. Let's try to help one another out in this. But i only have one question. Seeing that you have went to this woman for 8 years, why hasn't she worked you through this transferial stuff by now?
Posted by Dinah on August 12, 2003, at 2:45:08
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist » Dinah, posted by stebby on August 11, 2003, at 10:02:03
I was thinking about what you said about your husband. My husband and I were talking about this just the other day, after I read a book that mentioned the protential problem of intimacy with the therapist replacing intimacy with other important people in your life.
I had already solved that problem by sharing with him an overview of some of what we talked about in therapy. And go into greater detail with him than with my therapist on topics that he is more familiar with than my therapist. That way he doesn't feel excluded, and I'm not in fact excluding him. I don't share those things he doesn't want to hear, but things like my relationship with my parents or what's going on in work or how my illness might be affecting him. All those things lead to late night, after my son is asleep, intimate talks that we both enjoy. And he talks about what's on his mind as well, with work and family. So I actually use the therapy to be more intimate with my husband.
Maybe if you're able to do that, it would lessen some of the intensity of your feelings for your therapist.
Posted by stebby on August 12, 2003, at 9:17:33
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis, posted by Still Hurting on August 12, 2003, at 0:30:54
Oh my gosh, how horrible!!! That is such a painful story..this is exactly why I want to be able to work through my tranference and I resist embracing it. When my first therpist called my psychiatrist to tell her that she had seen me joggig by her house, I was so ashamed. My old therapist appears to hate me or fear me...its an awful feeling when someone views you like your crazy...it pains me just to think about it. On some level I really think I can relate to the pain you are going through. Its all so screwed up...you go to a theraspist to help sort out your difficulties, and then you end up with more. You need to find someone who is capable of dealing with transference in a supportive way...or maybe at this point you are too hurt to think about going back, but it sounds like you need support now more than ever.. Its taken me a year of a new therapist to trust her and start to move beyond the old one (unfortunately, I am now in love with my new one) But, instead of fearing me, she says we're in this together and we'll work through it. Maybe that can happen for you.
Posted by stebby on August 12, 2003, at 9:27:19
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist » stebby, posted by Dinah on August 12, 2003, at 2:45:08
That's a good idea about trying to bring your husband into the picture somehow. Have you actually told your husband that you are in love with your therapist? That would be such a huge step for me, not to mention that my therapist is a woman! Perhaps I could discuss this with him in terms of a strong attachment...I told him about that with my old therapist after she left, and I was in tears for days. But he never had any idea that there was a sexual attraction. I relaly think he'd have a hard time with that.
Posted by Dinah on August 12, 2003, at 9:43:32
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist » Dinah, posted by stebby on August 12, 2003, at 9:27:19
I guess I never think of it being "in love" since there's no sexual or romantic overtones. He knows I'm attached to my therapist and rely on him, and see him as a mother figure. He thinks it's weird, but he's ok with it.
If it was a romantic attachment, I think I would have left long ago. It's just me, but I couldn't be open with someone I found attractive. I'd get tonguetied. And my husband probably wouldn't like that either. :)
But you could share other stuff.
Posted by Still Hurting on August 12, 2003, at 11:38:28
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis » Still Hurting, posted by stebby on August 12, 2003, at 9:17:33
Thanks for your compassion. And I'm happy for you that you found a therapist that can work with you and not against you. Truthfully, I don't think she was experienced in this kind of thing. For her, everytime i would get in her business, she'd tell me that i was crossing professional borders. She kept reminding me that we had a therapeutic relationship and that's it. And if I continued to cross borders that she'll see to it that i get another counselor. What she didn't tell me was that transference is a common thing in client/therapist relationships. She hated me being in her personal business. But my question is, seeing that they went to university for all of this, wouldn't they be better prepared to handle transference when it shows up? Therapists seem to treat us like criminals when transference manifests, wereas they need to anticipate that some of their clients will struggle with seeing them as the ideal lover/friend/parent/etc. So instead of making us feel stupid and embarrassed shouldn't they do just as your therapist is doing,and that is to help us work straight along through it and into self-actualization?
Posted by fallsfall on August 12, 2003, at 12:14:34
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis » stebby, posted by Still Hurting on August 12, 2003, at 11:38:28
I think that some "schools" deal better with transference than others. I found that my CBT therapist didn't have a clue what to do. I transferred to a Psychodynamic therapist and the transference came up, I panicked, and he knew what to do. (P.S. that felt a LOT better...)
Posted by stebby on August 12, 2003, at 15:55:33
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist » stebby, posted by Dinah on August 12, 2003, at 9:43:32
Leaving is not an option...it would be too painful which I think you could understand. I like the 'working it out" option much better. Or, maybe I'll just grow out of it. How intersting it is for you to have a maternal type transference with a guy? Does your husband get jealous of your relationship with your therapist? Also, in regards to getting tonguetied,the real romantic attachment doesn't happen when I'm in the office, well, maybe a little, but its mostly when I'm on my own. Its all very confusing...
Posted by stebby on August 12, 2003, at 16:09:56
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis » stebby, posted by Still Hurting on August 12, 2003, at 11:38:28
I couldn't agree with you more. I wonder how common transference is. It seems like therapists should be more trained in it. Its awful being treated like you are a criminal by anyone, never mind by the person who is supposed to be helping you. I guess people inexperienced in transference think you are going to do something like stalking. My old therapist feared me because of it...that is countertransference. Who knows, maybe she was stalked before or something. Maybe that's why your therapist had such a strong reaction to you...she obviously has her own issues! Gotta run...
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 12, 2003, at 17:29:36
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist » Dinah, posted by stebby on August 12, 2003, at 15:55:33
Some of the things which have happened to people here because the therapists were not skilled in handling transferences are just horrible. I told my analyst about them briefly today; he thought it was fascinating that discussions like this are on the web now. He said, " I wonder how many therapists know that their patients are trying to modify or titrate their transferences because of their intuition about what the therapists can and cannot tolerate." Although he didn't say so today, I know that he believes that people get better by experiencing strong transferences of all kinds, and then, because the therapist reacts differently from people in the patient's past, a sort of "new space" is created between them, in which the patient has the chance to feel and behave in a new, healthier way. I have been having this kind of therapy for about five months, with such intense tranference feelings of all sorts coming up constantly (when I am not in his office, I can hardly believe how strong all those feelings are). They are being handled with such acceptance and skill, and I am feeling better than in many years.
I do think it is very arduous work, at times, for the therapist. Mine, who holds university teaching positions as well as having a full day of patients, takes off a week every two months! Sheer survival!
Pfinstegg
Posted by Dinah on August 12, 2003, at 19:18:03
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist, posted by Pfinstegg on August 12, 2003, at 17:29:36
Well, I'm glad your therapist is in such demand, and teaching besides. He sounds like one I wouldn't even mind leaving mine for. Except it sounds like he's gone almost as often as mine is. Mine might be gone the last week of August. Again. Sigh.
I had a very very similar conversation with my therapist today. It's amazing how, when they handle the transference well, it's so much less an issue. And it's absolutely astonishing to me that so many handle it so badly.
But my therapist is a bit exasperated because everytime I read about therapists who don't handle transference well, or other bad therapy, I get anxious with him. lol. Transference!!!
Posted by Dinah on August 12, 2003, at 19:21:53
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist » Dinah, posted by stebby on August 12, 2003, at 15:55:33
Oh, I certainly understand about leaving not being an option. It scares me sometimes the lengths I'd be willing to go to to continue therapy.
But maybe by talking about it here, and maybe by talking about some of what happens in therapy with your husband, some of the tension will dissipate. Especially since your therapist sounds as if she can handle whatever comes along.
(And he really makes a good mother figure. Receptive, but with a firm core.)
Posted by stebby on August 13, 2003, at 8:53:05
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist, posted by Pfinstegg on August 12, 2003, at 17:29:36
Your analyst sounds like a real pro. I will be very interested in hearing about how it all progresses for you. Its nice to know that you are feeling better than ever. Last week my therapist wanted me to discuss what my feelings about her are. I couldn't do it, but I'm feeling more confident about it today after hearing what everyone has to say on this board. My therapist was so reassuring last week when I told her "it" was happening again (she knows all about my experience with my last therapist). After my last experience I am so afraid letting her know these feelings will somehow change the way she treats me, but she assures me it won't. We'll see how it goes today. What made you decide to go into analysis versus some other type of therapy?
Posted by stebby on August 13, 2003, at 9:01:13
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist » stebby, posted by Dinah on August 12, 2003, at 19:21:53
I think you are right about trying to talk about what happens in therapy with my husband. I can share with him that it is a very strong attachment. This would probably help our relationship which needs some work at the moment. Maybe I can transfer my romantic feelings towards him..I'm sure he'd like that!
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 13, 2003, at 12:01:07
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist » Pfinstegg, posted by stebby on August 13, 2003, at 8:53:05
From what you are saying, your therapist sounds like she really wants all of your transference feelings to be felt, expressed and talked about with her. She sounds like she's very experienced and capable.
I actually went to a psychologist for four years before changing to the analyst I have now. The psychologist was excessively *nice* and supportive, but we didn't deal very well with any of the transference issues- rage and hatred, when they appeared, were ignored by her, and I was not coping well with them at all myself. I began reading about psychoanalysis, thinking that it was old-fashioned and involved a detached "blank-slate" type of analyst. To my great surprise, the literature of the late 80's and 90's showed that the analysts were in the process of becoming very interactive. They are not only very interested in- and well-trained in dealing with- all aspects of the transference, but also use their counter-transference to understand what is going on. They talk a lot! I go twice a week, but mostly lie own on the couch- sounds so old-fashioned!- but it does allow for a full and free expression of feelings. Because one naturally regresses, the transference issues tend to be from the earliest parts of one's life- just the ones hardest to access, and the ones we need to deal with the most. If anyone is interested in knowing more, I'd recommend looking up articles in the journal "Psychoanalytic Inquiry". That journal gives a good view of modern trends in psychoanalysis. I think you can acces at least a few articles from it on Google.
Pfinstegg
Posted by stebby on August 13, 2003, at 20:17:52
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist, posted by Pfinstegg on August 13, 2003, at 12:01:07
I always thought psychoanalysis sounded very interesting. It probably would be appropriate for me given my history of transference, although at this point I can't imagine leaving my current therapist. Also, isn't analysis really expensive.. and insurance typically does not cover it. Insurance companies seem to like these short term approaches. I have to ask, since you seem so comfortable with all of this transference stuff going on in your therapy, why are you interested in reading this message board. What brought you here in the first place?
I did have a session with my therapist today and disclosed many of my feelings about her. She was very cool about it and said that its not surprizing at all given my life experiences. She also discussed how seductive therapy can be since someone is listening to you with their undivided attention, and validating your thought and feelings. I guess its true..it is very seductive. I fell a little calmer about this now.
What brought you into therapy to begin with?
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 13, 2003, at 23:28:47
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist » Pfinstegg, posted by stebby on August 13, 2003, at 20:17:52
To answer the second question first, my mother was hospitalized with depression from the time I was born until I was three years old; even when she came home, she was very fragile and withdrawn. I don't feel that I ever had a real mother, and there were frequently-changing caretakers. Unfortunately, my father became an alcoholic, and abused me physically and sexually as I grew older. Because of these things I have had a tremendous amount of anxiety and depression my entire life. My DSM-IV diagnosis is severe PTSD. I do have a career, husband and son, but there have been many times when I was just barely managing, and in fact always felt awful about what a bad job I felt I was doing with everything.
As for the first question- what makes you think I am so comfortable with these transference issues? I am terrified having to go in there and deal with them, but I have learned from my analyst how valuable they are to the treatment process- that was the point I was trying to express here. And I come to these boards because I get a lot of valuable insight, support and knowledge from them; I'm assuming that is why everyone comes.
I do go to an analyst, but twice a week. His fees are actually lower than the psychologist I went to previously.Financially, I am in the same situation as everyone else here who has twice-weekly therapy.
What about you?
Pfinstegg
Posted by stebby on August 14, 2003, at 12:37:52
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist » stebby, posted by Pfinstegg on August 13, 2003, at 23:28:47
Pfinstegg, I hope I didn't offend you in any way regarding my question about why you come to this board. It's just that from your posts you seem so insightful about it all. I understand what you are saying about how valuable transference can be in the therapeutic process and I'm taking that insight with me. Thank you. I can also appreciate the difficulty of discussing this with your analyst. I have to say that discussing some of these feelings with my therapist has taken some of the power out of them.
My story is not so tragic like yours. My upbringing was not that bad...some physical abuse, a mom with some drinking troubles, and emotional neglect. Problems for me really didn't surface to an incapacitating state until the last few years when I have been facing enormous pressure in my work situation. I became very depressed after a poor evaluation in my struggle for tenure at an academic institution. I am the sole bread winner in the family at the moment with two adorable boys. I have been cutting and of course had this awful tranference experience with my first therapist. That only made my situation worse. I seem to lead a dual existancce where people on the outside think I have it all together when the truth is that I'm totally f'ed up. My husband can't deal with me anymore, and I just go through life trying to keep it together.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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