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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by mair on May 1, 2003, at 21:03:07
In reply to Re: Forever therapy, posted by allisonf on May 1, 2003, at 16:21:15
You surely aren't unique. Dinah recommended "In Session" to me a while ago, and my reaction to it was that I was just so astounded at what people could discuss with their therapists. My therapist says she's trying to get me to a place where I feel that I can say anything to her with the knowledge that she won't reject me because of it. Her notion is to give me what she calls Corrective emotional experiences, the thought being that if I can get close to her without experiencing rejection I'll be more willing to get closer to others. I really admire the extent to which you and Dinah and others are able to be pretty candid in therapy.
Obviously to many therapists there is real value in having a patient develop some dependency - I think you're right that fallsfall's therapist's supervisory group likely sees a problem with the therapist and not with fallsfall.
Mair
PS: year's ago when I first started being treated for a second episode of major depression, my husband went to a couple of my sessions with my then - psychiatrist who was also my therapist. The main reason for bringing him in was to make him more aware of what was going on with me. I remember him saying something to my doc about how he was fine with all of this, but he just didn't want me to get really dependent on therapy. (pretty laughable now after about 5 or 6 years of therapy) Anyway my pdoc made a statement that a little dependency would be a really good thing for me. We never discussed it more but I've come to understand how right he really was and how very difficult that is for me.
Posted by Pfinstegg on May 1, 2003, at 23:05:34
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » allisonf, posted by mair on May 1, 2003, at 21:03:07
These are just the most moving, honest and intelligent posts; the therapists are fortunate to have patients like you, who are aware of all the emotional complexities, and the pain, fear, hope and longing which we all bring to each session. If anyone continually feels that their therapist is not fully accepting of who they are, and of all the feelings they are bringing to their sessions, including dependency, really consider changing therapists. The fault is not in you- you are doing the only thing you can- being your authentic self. But not all therapists can really accept and contain all the feelings of every patient they encounter. Sometimes the therapist has emotional blind spots, insufficient or inappropriate training, or the "fit" just isn't good. Intelligent, insightful, emotionally complex and complete people like you deserve only excellent therapists who feel right to you!
Pfinstegg
Posted by Dinah on May 2, 2003, at 9:05:22
In reply to Re: Forever therapy, posted by allisonf on May 1, 2003, at 16:21:15
I'm glad you were able to work it out, Allison. I always feel just awful when I think my therapist and I are out of charity with one another, and I usually call him to check it out.
Congratulations on having the courage to talk to her about it. And congratulations to her for recognizing that whatever discomfort she has is her own issue to deal with. Sounds like you've got a winner.
Posted by fallsfall on May 2, 2003, at 17:23:39
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » allisonf, posted by Dinah on May 2, 2003, at 9:05:22
Hi Dinah,
This is in response to your question on Psycho-Social-Babble (Lost my Therapist).
Yeah, I saw my old group therapist once in March. She was very helpful. She saw me without my regular therapist knowing. She said that she would be happy to see me again and/or do a consult if I wanted (but that if she was going to see me more than that one time she wanted my regular therapist to be notified.)
My regular therapist told me later that I should feel free to see her, or my Pdoc if I need to. I've seen my Pdoc twice when he's wanted to "talk about it". The problem is that he says too much and talks too long and by the time I get out of there I'm really upset. I will either have to control the sessions or see him only about meds.
I don't know if I will see the group therapist again. My regular therapist and I are starting to get to the point where things are getting a little clearer and more concrete. I'm most likely to see the group therapist if I disagree strongly with my regular therapist (How can I? She's perfect.), or I'm having trouble understanding what is going on.
My Pdoc really spooked me about how hard it is to break a dependency like mine. Sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to terminate with my regular therapist and start with someone else. I don't want to do that, but I am very afraid of the pain. I'm trying to give my regular therapist a chance to clear things up.
Thanks for caring.
Posted by Dinah on May 2, 2003, at 19:50:08
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on May 2, 2003, at 17:23:39
It sounds like you're doing everything you can and should do. I do hope it works out for you.
If it's any comfort to you, I eventually worked through the painful part of my dependency feelings. Every once in a while something will stir up abandonment fears, but for the most part I'm quite happily and comfortably dependent. (I mean that as a good thing, although it didn't come out that way.)
Posted by allisonf on May 2, 2003, at 23:24:16
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » allisonf, posted by mair on May 1, 2003, at 21:03:07
Thanks for your support. Sometimes I feel like I'm not quite honest enough with my therapist (like not telling her that I was upset she ended early) but then I also think there are times when things are better left unsaid, as long as the issue can be resolved somewhat (like my main concern about her ending early was that she was upset, and she told me she wasn't, so...).
Also, I think the fact that you have so much insight about what's going on with your therapist re: the trust issue, is most of the battle. My therapist speaks of the same corrective emotional experiences concept as your therapist, calling it reparenting. I don't know how many times I have reacted to something she says, and she has replied, "Just to remind you, I'm not your mother".
Best of luck with your therapy--
Allison
Posted by allisonf on May 2, 2003, at 23:36:03
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » allisonf, posted by Dinah on May 2, 2003, at 9:05:22
Thanks. Last week I was reading some of "To those with therapists..." above, and I was thinking about how you called your therapist when you thought he was upset about his mother's death (was that right?)...and it made me think that calling to ck in with my therapist was the right option for me this week.
Also, I will pass along your compliments to her! :)
Allison
Posted by allisonf on May 2, 2003, at 23:39:14
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » allisonf, posted by Dinah on May 2, 2003, at 9:05:22
Oops. I apologize about th wording of my previous message. Obviously, your therapist was upset by the situation...you just wanted to make sure he was doing ok.
Posted by fallsfall on May 4, 2003, at 21:30:15
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Dinah, posted by allisonf on May 2, 2003, at 23:39:14
I am very dependent on my therapist, but I'm trying to "behave" and do the normal thing. I had a dream this morning - very detailed, long, and clear. It was about my therapist and me. It clearly says a lot about the way I see her, the way I see our relationship, the hopes/fears I have for therapy. I have a strong urge to drop a copy off at her office Monday. I see her on Wednesday. But I'm afraid that it will be seen as the equivalent of calling between sessions, i.e. being dependent. The last thing I want to do is make her mad.
Why do I want her to have it before the session? I'm not expecting her to call me. I want her to have some time to think about it before I see her. In some sense, I want her to have to do some work (it does feel to me that I'm doing all the work these days). Otherwise, she/I will read it and she'll ask me what I think and I'll tell her and I won't find out what she thinks. (that's unfair, if I asked her she would tell me)
Also we only got through about half of what we wanted to talk about last week. If I drop it off then we won't spend session time reading it.
I never dream, so this is an event - I'm excited, won't she be excited?
So is dropping it off "dependent"?
Posted by Dinah on May 4, 2003, at 21:43:33
In reply to Between Forever Therapy Sessions, posted by fallsfall on May 4, 2003, at 21:30:15
I get those urges too, sometimes. But the one time I've been moved to contact him between sessions with my truly stunning insight, it ended up not being all that satisfying.
So based on my own less than wonderful experience, I'd wait to give it to her. And perhaps it will be extra special unwrapping the gift together, so to speak.
I do understand the not wanting to fill up the session though. I have got so extra much to tell him tomorrow, because so much happened when he was out of town, that I wish he had a two hour stretch to give me. It's going to feel like forever until Friday when I see him next. It's going to take all I have to resist scheduling an extra appointment. Unfortunately, I know he'd be willing enough to do that.
That fifty minute hour is just not long enough.
Posted by Eggy on May 4, 2003, at 22:40:19
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on April 21, 2003, at 10:22:03
Posted by fallsfall on May 4, 2003, at 23:33:05
In reply to Re: Between Forever Therapy Sessions » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on May 4, 2003, at 21:43:33
Some times in the past I have left her journalling. She always acknowledged getting it, and didn't seem to have a problem with it. She would call me if I didn't say she didn't need to.
But, you are right, it is probably better to err on the side of caution. I will control myself and keep it until Wednesday.
My therapist has reduced her sessions to 45 minutes, and I only get one per week. Enjoy your 100 minutes!
Thanks for your voice of reason.
Posted by fallsfall on May 4, 2003, at 23:37:25
In reply to Go here...LINK, posted by Eggy on May 4, 2003, at 22:40:19
WOW
Very sobering.
Posted by Dinah on May 5, 2003, at 3:29:05
In reply to Re: Between Forever Therapy Sessions » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on May 4, 2003, at 23:33:05
Well, I do hate to be a voice of reason. :) Really.
It sounds like her attitude is different. Mine has no particular problem scheduling extra sessions or moving them up (except that one time I was so excited about my insight - I'm assuming my timing was genuinely bad). But asking him to read something outside session or talking ot him on the phone between sessions isn't all that useful. He's just not good on the phone and never has been. And he's forgetful to the extreme, Or draws really good boundaries, something like that.
So my suggestion was based on my therapist, and yours might have different strenghts and weaknesses.
I know I'm pretty lucky having the time I do have with him a week. I also feel pretty self indulgent about it. I'm sorry your therapist has cut you to 45 minutes, was that from 50 minutes? Was it a sort of fee increase, or was it based on the perception of your dependency? I'm sorry if you've told me that already. My brain has been whirling this past week.
Posted by fallsfall on May 5, 2003, at 9:32:13
In reply to Re: Between Forever Therapy Sessions » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on May 5, 2003, at 3:29:05
I wasn't singled out, the 45 minute sessions are for all of her clients. It was in the last 6 months, I think. She didn't tell me, it was in an agreement I signed in January - so maybe that was when it happened. Someday I'll ask her about it.
She has seen me for extra sessions in the past. I remember the first time I was suicidal she saw me at 5 - that is when she goes home, so she stayed late for me. I've only done extra sessions when it is really an emergency, and she hasn't had a problem with my definition of "emergency". But I know she would not want to see me now unless I needed to go into the hospital (and we've done that over the phone in the past - she was on her cell phone driving back from 6 hours away on a Sunday). She would say that I need to be more independent and handle things on my own rather than depending on her. It still feels like I am doing the hardest therapy work yet by myself (guess that is why she says I'm dependent). I don't know. I am starting to feel a little better, I've been taking the dogs for a walk, blowing last fall's leaves, maybe I'll do some laundry or go grocery shopping today. So she'll take that as a sign of improvement and think that what she's doing is good, sigh.
I think that 6 months ago my description of her wouldn't be all that different from your description of your therapist.
I really appreciate your insight, I'm not objective, and my friends aren't really objective either (they see my pain up close and personal).
8^)
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2003, at 9:23:30
In reply to Re: Between Forever Therapy Sessions » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on May 5, 2003, at 9:32:13
> I wasn't singled out, the 45 minute sessions are for all of her clients. It was in the last 6 months, I think. She didn't tell me, it was in an agreement I signed in January - so maybe that was when it happened. Someday I'll ask her about it.
She must have found her schedule too tight. I would imagine that it is difficult to take care of everything in ten minutes between sessions. But.... I'd be upset if our sessions were shortened. My therapist does try to play catch up with my appointment time, and they're not always the full fifty minutes. And something truly extraordinary has to be happening to go a second longer than fifty minutes. But I like knowing that the time is there.
>
> She has seen me for extra sessions in the past. I remember the first time I was suicidal she saw me at 5 - that is when she goes home, so she stayed late for me. I've only done extra sessions when it is really an emergency, and she hasn't had a problem with my definition of "emergency". But I know she would not want to see me now unless I needed to go into the hospital (and we've done that over the phone in the past - she was on her cell phone driving back from 6 hours away on a Sunday). She would say that I need to be more independent and handle things on my own rather than depending on her. It still feels like I am doing the hardest therapy work yet by myself (guess that is why she says I'm dependent).Well, I certainly have been impressed with your hard work. It does seem like you're doing some of her work as well. But you should be proud of yourself for what you are doing. My therapist really likes extra sessions as opposed to, say, phone conversations. And he prefers to address things immediately rather than wait. I would be very cynical and say it's because he has extra time to fill, but that isn't fair. He was the same way when he had an almost full time job. He would drag himself in to see me in the evenings, and I know he made a real effort to be available to me.
> I don't know. I am starting to feel a little better, I've been taking the dogs for a walk, blowing last fall's leaves, maybe I'll do some laundry or go grocery shopping today. So she'll take that as a sign of improvement and think that what she's doing is good, sigh.
>
Well, I'm glad you're feeling better. May it long continue.> I think that 6 months ago my description of her wouldn't be all that different from your description of your therapist.
Well, now you've terrified me. :-O (smile)
>
> I really appreciate your insight, I'm not objective, and my friends aren't really objective either (they see my pain up close and personal).
>
> 8^)I really hope your session goes well on Wednesday.
Dinah
Posted by fallsfall on May 8, 2003, at 13:15:34
In reply to Re: Between Forever Therapy Sessions, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2003, at 9:23:30
Things went a little better in therapy this week. For the last week, I've been feeling a little better, more energy, getting a little bit done.
My therapist and I talked about a dream that I had, which had a theme in it of my guessing what something was, her correcting my interpretation, but I don't understand why what she is saying is different. Basically, bad communication. As we went on to the next topic (dependency) she decided that she should verify her understanding of what I was depending on her for. Lo and behold, what she believed (self-concept) was not what I need her for (self-esteem, self evaluation). It was encouraging that she now understands what the issue is.
We talked about the root cause of my dependency - I need her to evaluate (good vs. bad) my self, to determine if I am a worthwhile person. She asked how other people do it. I have no idea. I believe that I have always had someone to tell me if I was OK or not. How do all of you know?
I had to tell her some pretty deep things, and while I was aware that it was risky, I told her everything. That is a major improvement. And it seemed OK.
After I left, she won another point. She was trying to tell me that people aren't Good or Bad - that it is a continuum, but I didn't buy it at the time. After I left, though, I could see the continuum, but there is a point where it goes from gradations of good to gradations of bad (like a D- is passing, but an F is failing). So I see her continuum, but I also see my black and white. Small progress, but none the less progress.
I wasn't nearly as scared to be there or to talk. I hope that this can continue.
Posted by Dinah on May 8, 2003, at 16:52:19
In reply to Re: Forever Therapy, posted by fallsfall on May 8, 2003, at 13:15:34
I love sessions like that. :) I'm glad it went well.
Posted by noa on May 8, 2003, at 19:40:49
In reply to Re: Forever Therapy, posted by fallsfall on May 8, 2003, at 13:15:34
You continue to impress me!
Posted by fallsfall on May 9, 2003, at 5:39:37
In reply to Re: Forever Therapy » fallsfall, posted by noa on May 8, 2003, at 19:40:49
Thank you all for your wonderful support. It has made a real difference. When I was feeling really needy and couldn't see my therapist, you guys were there to help out.
Onward and upward!
Posted by noa on May 21, 2003, at 18:02:57
In reply to Re: Thanks for your support, posted by fallsfall on May 9, 2003, at 5:39:37
FF, how goes it?
Posted by fallsfall on May 22, 2003, at 7:30:58
In reply to Re: Thanks for your support » fallsfall, posted by noa on May 21, 2003, at 18:02:57
Hi, Noa. You are so sweet.
Things are much improved over those days. I am understanding self-esteem better (though mine is still pretty low...). I'm no longer terrified to talk to her. I do continue to freak out thinking that she is mad at me or frustrated. Last session she was quite comforting, and that memory helps me through.
I am doing more. I am taking a cake decorating class (I need to frost a cake this morning so I can decorate it in class this afternoon). I had a date (OMG!), and we are going hiking on Sunday. This is all a bit overwhelming, but if I survive today I can nap a bit tomorrow.
So the crisis is pretty much over, and now I have to deal with getting better.
Thanks for asking.
Posted by noa on May 22, 2003, at 22:59:48
In reply to Re: Thanks for your support » noa, posted by fallsfall on May 22, 2003, at 7:30:58
WOW! Have fun!
Posted by shar on May 27, 2003, at 1:16:34
In reply to Re: Thanks for your support, posted by noa on May 22, 2003, at 22:59:48
Noa,
You are so wonderful. You have such a good spirit and soul, I don't understand how you do it. But....however, please keep on, because we sure need it!Shar
Posted by Ilene on July 10, 2003, at 0:18:19
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on April 21, 2003, at 10:22:03
> My therapist still worries that I'm not getting better (and that is a reasonable worry). 18 months ago I did a bad thing. I typed her name in a search engine and collected some information about her (personal) life from there and other sources. I ended up with her address and phone number, email address, her husband and kids' names, her AIM screenname. I put her on my buddy list and watched when she was online. She almost threw me out. I understand why. 2 months ago, I searched on her name again. I read a couple of articles she had written, and then found a committee she was on - and her name was a link. I followed the link, and it was email - with her email address again. I closed the windows and said "I'm not going there".
Okay, so your therapist, who knows that her patients are not exactly stable, leaves her personal data easily accessible on the internet. Then she gets upset because a patient finds publicly-accessible information? It's a little harder than looking up her name in the white pages, but just a little.
I think you are right to find another therapist. One with common sense.
Ilene
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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