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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on September 12, 2009, at 13:00:30
In reply to Re: Do SSRI's cause dopamine depletion, posted by metafunj on September 12, 2009, at 11:23:47
> Just thought I'd throw this in here. I posted it in the tread about dopamine depletion on SSRIs being a myth. I hope this helps to answer the initial question.
>
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T26-4FNW4KX-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1009313094&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=bf1894ef55db5d4f4c51a0e41f6c6514
>
> Abstract
>
> Serotonin and dopamine transporter (SERT, DAT) availabilities have prospectively been investigated using [123I]β-CIT and single photon emission computed tomography in subjects with obsessivecompulsive disorder under treatment with the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor citalopram. SERT availability decreased by a mean 36.5%, whereas DAT availability increased by about 40%. The data point at a citalopram induced modulation of both serotonergic and dopaminergic activity and support the notion of functional interactions of monoaminergic systems in the human brain.
>
> Keywords: Serotonin and dopamine transporters; Single photon emission computed tomography; β-CIT; Serotonin reuptake inhibitor; Obsessivecompulsive disorderWhy do SSRIs' cause hyperprolactin´, akathsia, apathy, sexual dysfunction if not trough low dopamine. A lot of psychiatrists, I have written with say that quite simply. When you raise serotonin significantly, you significantly lowers dopamine.
Posted by metafunj on September 12, 2009, at 19:12:52
In reply to Re: Is there a way to naturally increase Dopamine?, posted by Wanderer123 on September 12, 2009, at 11:51:17
I'm all for natural remedies but sometimes it hard to find objective data on them. I've tried lots of stuff chinese medicine, meditation, exercise, neurotransmitter precursors and nothing has really done much.
I think its worth a shot to get a urine test its should show the metabolites of the neurotransmitters and help you figure out what you need more of. If you have low dopamine they will probably tell you to take L-tyrosine w/ B6. It didn't do anything for me but some people find it helpful.
This may be a good sign post for your wonderer. (no pun intended), but I've found that the natural stuff isn't strong enough to counter what prozac has done to me.
Posted by metafunj on September 12, 2009, at 19:18:17
In reply to Re: Do SSRI's cause dopamine depletion, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on September 12, 2009, at 13:00:30
I think there is some confusion. This abstract is saying that SSRIs decrease dopaminergic function.
It says that taking an SSRI decreases SERT. SERT is the serotonin transporter. With less transporters more serotonin is left in the synapse and serotonergic transmittion is enhanced.
It also says that taking an SSRI increases DAT, which is the dopamine transporter. This means that your brain on (and probably after) an SSRI is taking more dopamine up out of the synapse and decreasing dopaminergic transmittion.
I hope this helps.
Posted by Wanderer123 on September 12, 2009, at 19:25:21
In reply to Re: Is there a way to naturally increase Dopamine?, posted by metafunj on September 12, 2009, at 19:12:52
I think if there's a will, there's a way!
Posted by metafunj on September 15, 2009, at 19:42:35
In reply to Re: Is there a way to naturally increase Dopamine?, posted by Wanderer123 on September 12, 2009, at 19:25:21
One thing to try is to eat high quality protein meats and dairy products. You want to try to use proteins that don't have very much tryptophan because tryptophan will be converted to serotonin in the body. Whey and yogurt seem to be low in tryptophan and eggs and milk are high in tyrosine.
This is a link comparing tyrosine:tryptophan in foods.
http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-000087000000079000000-2w.html?
This is a search based on tryptophan content in dairy products
http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-001079000000000000000-4w.html?This is a search based on tyrosine content in dairy products.
http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-001990600700000000000.html?maxCount=33
Also you should cut back on carbohydrates as much as possible, especially while eating protein because carbs make it so tryptophan gets converted into serotonin and competes with the other amino acids. Basically Protein and carbohydrates will compete and carbs will cause serotonin to dominate. So if you can try to eat more leafy vegetables and less starchy vegetables. Eating complex carbohydrates may help too.
Don't forget exercise and gingko biloba to decrease serotonin release!
Posted by GuardiAngel on November 7, 2009, at 13:15:01
In reply to Re: Do SSRI's cause dopamine depletion, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on March 4, 2009, at 16:20:32
I have been taking Celexa for ten years. For the last three or so years I have been _extremely_ tired and sleepy (which was not my baseline pattern). This made me lose the will to live (though I was not suicidal---just waiting to die). Now, Wellbutrin has been added and I feel "normal". That made me think: maybe SSRI's somehow reduce dopamine levels/sensitivity...and so a google search brought me to this site and thread.This is very scary and tragic if true and must be added on top of severe withdrawal symptoms (panic attacks and more) I had two years ago when I was off celexa (in an attempt to switch to cymbalta).
I wish I had never been on SSRI's for such a long time. And I wish that both doctors and patients would realize that taking any anti-depressant is not a matter that should be taken lightly.
Posted by Deneb on November 7, 2009, at 16:13:02
In reply to Very sleepy and tired after long term celexa use, posted by GuardiAngel on November 7, 2009, at 13:15:01
Hello GuardiAngel
Welcome to Psycho-Babble! Sorry to hear the Celexa made you tired. That is scary because I've been on an SSRI close to 10 years too. I hope I don't get serious side effects from it. Right now I am finding I have a lot of lack of motivation. I don't know if it is from my meds.
Deneb
Posted by metafunj on November 7, 2009, at 16:29:24
In reply to Very sleepy and tired after long term celexa use, posted by GuardiAngel on November 7, 2009, at 13:15:01
Everything you say is true.
Posted by creepy on November 13, 2009, at 12:01:03
In reply to Very sleepy and tired after long term celexa use, posted by GuardiAngel on November 7, 2009, at 13:15:01
wow, I just posted a message exactly like this one.
same deal, sedation on celexa. No ideas so far =(
Posted by mtdewcmu on November 26, 2009, at 0:22:53
In reply to Very sleepy and tired after long term celexa use, posted by GuardiAngel on November 7, 2009, at 13:15:01
>
> I have been taking Celexa for ten years. For the last three or so years I have been _extremely_ tired and sleepy (which was not my baseline pattern). This made me lose the will to live (though I was not suicidal---just waiting to die). Now, Wellbutrin has been added and I feel "normal". That made me think: maybe SSRI's somehow reduce dopamine levels/sensitivity...and so a google search brought me to this site and thread.
>I think you may be awfulizing. A more straightforward explanation for what happened is that the Celexa pooped out on you and your depression returned. The same thing happened to me (poop out), and rather than continue to take Celexa, I have switched to all new meds and I am feeling better (after a grueling 3 months of trial and error).
Posted by mtdewcmu on November 26, 2009, at 0:39:06
In reply to Very sleepy and tired after long term celexa use, posted by GuardiAngel on November 7, 2009, at 13:15:01
>
> I have been taking Celexa for ten years. For the last three or so years I have been _extremely_ tired and sleepy (which was not my baseline pattern). This made me lose the will to live (though I was not suicidal---just waiting to die). Now, Wellbutrin has been added and I feel "normal". That made me think: maybe SSRI's somehow reduce dopamine levels/sensitivity...and so a google search brought me to this site and thread.
>
> This is very scary and tragic if true and must be added on top of severe withdrawal symptoms (panic attacks and more) I had two years ago when I was off celexa (in an attempt to switch to cymbalta).
>
> I wish I had never been on SSRI's for such a long time. And I wish that both doctors and patients would realize that taking any anti-depressant is not a matter that should be taken lightly.I do agree that the decision to take an antidepressant should not be taken lightly. Although, I don't see why anyone would continue to take the pills for an extended period if they didn't really need them. Case in point, my sister was having some issues of anxiety and low mood around the time she graduated college. This is a challenging time for anyone, I am sure. She saw a psychiatrist, who started her on Cymbalta, which she couldn't tolerate. Then she switched to Prozac, from which she derived some benefit. After seeing a therapist and psychiatrist for a number of months, and taking Ritalin and Concerta for a time (I don't know how she scored that one), she eventually quit taking all the meds of her own accord. My feeling is that she doesn't need medication, and she eventually realized this.
I, on the other hand, don't care to imagine life without meds. I guess I have to accept whatever long-term consequences there may be, because there is no alternative.
I am sure that occasionally it happens, but I can't see why someone would go on taking them for years if they could get along without them.
Posted by conundrum on November 26, 2009, at 6:15:55
In reply to Re: Very sleepy and tired after long term celexa use, posted by mtdewcmu on November 26, 2009, at 0:39:06
Some docs prescribe ritalin for SSRI induced anhedonia. THat could be how she got that script to counter prozac's side effects.
Posted by mtdewcmu on November 26, 2009, at 10:12:07
In reply to Re: Very sleepy and tired after long term celexa use » mtdewcmu, posted by conundrum on November 26, 2009, at 6:15:55
> Some docs prescribe ritalin for SSRI induced anhedonia. THat could be how she got that script to counter prozac's side effects.
That could be true, although she didn't describe any side effects to me, and we were in close contact during that time. I was under the impression that it was more related to attention problems, but who can really know what's in the mind of a pdoc?
Posted by neuro123 on February 7, 2010, at 10:55:02
In reply to Re: Do SSRI's cause dopamine depletion to d/r, posted by Meltingpot on May 17, 2009, at 10:25:42
SSRIs reduce dopamine production. This is one of the reasons they work well in patients with panic disorder and GAD, since dopamine is a precursor for norepinephrine. The reduction is dose-dependent. Down-regulation of dopamine is the reason behind the sexual side effects all SSRI produce + apathy. Dopamine primarily regulates prolactin and /affects/is affected by/ other sex hormones, like testosterone, therefore inducing sexual impairment. (Dopamine agonists are given for infertility in women). High levels of dopamine are associated with psychosis, hyperactivity, hypersexuality, mania,etc., while low levels - with apathy, low sex drive, slowed thinking,etc. There are no specific,long-term studies on permanent effects of SSRI/serotonin agents intake on dopamine production/receptors, but there are reported cases of sexual dysfunction long after a SSRI agent has been discontinued.
Posted by desolationrower on February 7, 2010, at 11:36:34
In reply to Re: Do SSRI's cause dopamine depletion to d/r, posted by neuro123 on February 7, 2010, at 10:55:02
well dopamine can also have anxiolytic effects
-d/r
Posted by Deneb on February 7, 2010, at 16:32:07
In reply to Re: Do SSRI's cause dopamine depletion to d/r, posted by neuro123 on February 7, 2010, at 10:55:02
Hello neuro123!
Welcome to Psycho-Babble! Thanks for all that information about dopamine! Do you know how atypical anti-psychotics like Risperdal affect dopamine?
Deneb
Posted by neuro123 on February 7, 2010, at 17:52:00
In reply to Re: Do SSRI's cause dopamine depletion to d/r » neuro123, posted by Deneb on February 7, 2010, at 16:32:07
> Hello neuro123!
>
> Welcome to Psycho-Babble! Thanks for all that information about dopamine! Do you know how atypical anti-psychotics like Risperdal affect dopamine?
>
> DenebAnti-psychotics mainly block dopamine from reaching it's destination - it's receptors,where it exerts its functions. As I mentioned above, when you are low on dopamine, you become apathetic and relaxed--but not in the good way. Also when your dopamine is completely blocked (with a neuroleptic like Pimozide or older anti-psychotics), your brain "blocks" too. This is followed by a train of side-effects, worst of which is a general cognitive disability, which remains long after a neuroleptic or anti-psychotic has been used, and also Parkinson's disease.
In general, my opinion is that you should NOT mess with dopamine, unless it's a last resort. Recovery from the cognitive dysfunction that anti-psychotics can bring to a normal person takes more than 6 months. Withdrawal from the older anti-psychotics can be worse than benzodiazepine (Xanax) withdrawal.For example - seroquel is given out like candy recently and it messes with your dopamine, serotonin,adrenal,histamine and mACh receptors all together.
I highly advocate against the general use of anti-psychotics for anything else than schizophrenia or psychosis--it's even in it's name.I don't know much about Risperdal.I'm sorry that I cannot be of more help, I just stopped following any info on anti-psychotics after finding out about their devastating effects on healthy people, when prescribed lightly.
As much as I know, is that the newer "atypical anti-psychotics" like Risperidal, work also mainly by blocking dopamine but more selectively and also with less strength, allowing a more "normal" physiological flow of dopamine to it's receptors, which I personally believe is *bull*.P.S. From what I researched quickly right now in order to be able to give you an answer, Risperidal sounds like a good choice compared to other atypical anti-psychotics, if you suffer from schizophrenia or psychosis.
Posted by ggggg123 on October 23, 2010, at 3:35:27
In reply to Re: Do SSRI's cause dopamine depletion to d/r, posted by neuro123 on February 7, 2010, at 10:55:02
Dopamine depletion is not good for GAD, the general misconception amongst doctors about GAD is that it is similar to physical anxiety, in fact the opposite is often true, GAD is mental anxiety without physical anxiety, the two are not totally related. Therefore it could be said that dopamine can in fact be very beneficial to gad, whilst it can have a negative impact on physical anxiety and social phobia. Ssri's increase serotonin beyond normal levels reducing mental anxiety but most likely increasing mental apathy.
Posted by susan55 on December 12, 2010, at 17:59:41
In reply to Re: Do SSRI's cause dopamine depletion to d/r » neuro123, posted by ggggg123 on October 23, 2010, at 3:35:27
> Dopamine depletion is not good for GAD, the general misconception amongst doctors about GAD is that it is similar to physical anxiety, in fact the opposite is often true, GAD is mental anxiety without physical anxiety, the two are not totally related. Therefore it could be said that dopamine can in fact be very beneficial to gad, whilst it can have a negative impact on physical anxiety and social phobia. Ssri's increase serotonin beyond normal levels reducing mental anxiety but most likely increasing mental apathy.
This article suggests that dopamine while it does not say exactly dopamine is lowered I think having a dual uptake of serotonin and dopamine when it should just be dopamine may one increase the amount of serotonin beyond expected maybe even beyond theraputic levels and 2 lower the dopamine as the reuptake is to be purely dopamine but is now being shared by serotonin so perhaps not as much dopamine is getting to the receptors I intend to look into this further.
Posted by susan55 on December 12, 2010, at 18:16:36
In reply to Re: Do SSRI's cause dopamine depletion, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on April 8, 2009, at 17:28:11
Suspect the receptors become sensitized as there is less dopamine to receive to fix that the body increases the levels of sensitivity the body is very wise.
Posted by Drewfuss on February 9, 2011, at 20:02:53
In reply to Re: Do SSRI's cause dopamine depletion, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on April 20, 2009, at 17:03:12
This is an important question to be asked. One that MD's and specifically psychiatrists rarely investigate or simply ignore.
SSRI's are likely to cause dopamine depletion as they purport an inhibitory effect of 5-HT on dopomine neuronal activity in the ventral tegmental area (VTA). The increase of 5-HT transmission likely causes a suppression of the firing activity of Dopamine neurons.Since the Dopaminergic system plays an important role in motivation and reward, a potential decrease in the firing of Dopamine neurons may contribute to decreased levels of motivation and exasperate existing depressive symptoms in individuals treated with SSRIs.
Reference:
Dremencov, E., El Mansari, M., Blier, P. (2009). Effects of sustained serotonin reuptake inhibition on the firing of dopamine neurons in the rat ventral tegmental area. Journal of Psychiatry & Neuroscience, (34), 223-229
Posted by EakinsOxley on April 2, 2011, at 20:45:45
In reply to Re: Do SSRI's cause dopamine depletion, posted by Drewfuss on February 9, 2011, at 20:02:53
Why isn't anyone paying attention to this link?
I've been on Paxil for 6 years and have hypersomnia for the last 5. Now I sleep 20 hours a day unless I take modafinil to regulate my dopamine.
Doctors I suggest this to just shake their heads and say there's no link. But there's also no investigation, no proof...
Posted by desolationrower on April 4, 2011, at 3:37:03
In reply to Re: Do SSRI's cause dopamine depletion, posted by EakinsOxley on April 2, 2011, at 20:45:45
hrm, i ignore things that are sort of like science, but doesn't use the the right lingo. in this case, DA 'depletion' vs. reduction in DA firing rate.
anyway, i'd take a stimulant or bupropion.
-d/r
Posted by chumbawumba on April 14, 2011, at 21:10:46
In reply to Re: Do SSRI's cause dopamine depletion, posted by EakinsOxley on April 2, 2011, at 20:45:45
I'd be interested in hearing what the collective babble-mind thinks of this:
http://www.neuroassist.com/Hinz-depression-050208IK-web.pdf
I got TMS about a year ago and the pdoc who did it put me on this supplement called NeuroReplete. Which is basically 5-HTP, Tyrosine, and some vitamin and mineral cofactors. I find it really helpful. I no longer take antidepressants. I had been on Prozac for about 8 years at dosages up to 120 mg a day. I've also tried about 20 other medications alone or in combination. SSRIs, SNRIs, tricyclics, stimulants, antipsychotics. This works the best IMO. And I thought yeah right, a nutritional supplement...baloney. I've always been a better living through chemistry kind of guy. Supplements were airy-fairy snake oil. A clever scheme to lighten my wallet. But I'll be damned if it doesn't work for me.
Posted by torridcalm on May 24, 2011, at 11:52:35
In reply to Re: Do SSRI's cause dopamine depletion, posted by chumbawumba on April 14, 2011, at 21:10:46
> I'd be interested in hearing what the collective babble-mind thinks of this:
>
> http://www.neuroassist.com/Hinz-depression-050208IK-web.pdf
>
> I got TMS about a year ago and the pdoc who did it put me on this supplement called NeuroReplete. Which is basically 5-HTP, Tyrosine, and some vitamin and mineral cofactors. I find it really helpful. I no longer take antidepressants. I had been on Prozac for about 8 years at dosages up to 120 mg a day. I've also tried about 20 other medications alone or in combination. SSRIs, SNRIs, tricyclics, stimulants, antipsychotics. This works the best IMO. And I thought yeah right, a nutritional supplement...baloney. I've always been a better living through chemistry kind of guy. Supplements were airy-fairy snake oil. A clever scheme to lighten my wallet. But I'll be damned if it doesn't work for me.
>
sugests that seritonin and dopamine precursers need to be taken together to maintain balance. gives a recipe vit C, B6, cysteine... I forget the rest of the recipe but it's a very convincing read
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