![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Don_Bristol on January 10, 2005, at 15:04:09
My girlfriend has very vivid dreams. And sometimes these vivid dreams are equally vivid nightmares.
She can wake up after 9 or 10 hours sleep feeling very exhausted and not rested.
She currently takes 20 mg Lexapro and has done so for about two years. However she has always had the dreaming/nightmares even when she was not taking any meds.
Is there anything she can take to reduce the dreaming? Or at least to reduce how much of them is remembered?
(By contrast I am the other extreme and I almost never know what I have dreamed and I would say I have not dreamed anything.)
Thank you.
Posted by tensor on January 10, 2005, at 15:32:14
In reply to How to stop vivid dearming / nightmares?, posted by Don_Bristol on January 10, 2005, at 15:04:09
Hi,
is she taking the med at bedtime or in the morning? taking it in the morning can reduce the problem.
/Mattias
Posted by King Vultan on January 10, 2005, at 23:10:21
In reply to How to stop vivid dearming / nightmares?, posted by Don_Bristol on January 10, 2005, at 15:04:09
> My girlfriend has very vivid dreams. And sometimes these vivid dreams are equally vivid nightmares.
>
> She can wake up after 9 or 10 hours sleep feeling very exhausted and not rested.
>
> She currently takes 20 mg Lexapro and has done so for about two years. However she has always had the dreaming/nightmares even when she was not taking any meds.
>
> Is there anything she can take to reduce the dreaming? Or at least to reduce how much of them is remembered?
>
> (By contrast I am the other extreme and I almost never know what I have dreamed and I would say I have not dreamed anything.)
>
> Thank you.
FWIW, Nardil had the greatest tendency to suppress REM sleep of any of the 10+ drugs I've been on--I really do not recall dreaming at all while on it. I paid a price when withdrawing from it, however, as I suffered REM rebound syndrome, a fairly nasty and unpleasant side effect.Parnate, OTOH, has not greatly decreased my ability to dream, even at 60 mg/day. The small dose of Risperdal I have recently added to it has increased my dreaming somewhat more also. In general, however, MAOIs seem to suppress REM sleep.
Todd
Posted by Don_Bristol on January 11, 2005, at 9:48:06
In reply to Re: How to stop vivid dearming / nightmares?, posted by King Vultan on January 10, 2005, at 23:10:21
> > My girlfriend has very vivid dreams. And sometimes these vivid
> > dreams are equally vivid nightmares.
> >
> > She can wake up after 9 or 10 hours sleep feeling very exhausted
> > and not rested.
> >
> > She currently takes 20 mg Lexapro and has done so for about two
> > years. However she has always had the dreaming/nightmares
> > even when she was not taking any meds.
> >
> > Is there anything she can take to reduce the dreaming? Or at
> > least to reduce how much of them is remembered?
> >
> > (By contrast I am the other extreme and I almost never know what
> > I have dreamed and I would say I have not dreamed anything.)
> >
> > Thank you.
Todd writes:
>
> FWIW, Nardil had the greatest tendency to suppress REM sleep of
> any of the 10+ drugs I've been on--I really do not recall dreaming
> at all while on it. I paid a price when withdrawing from it, however,
> as I suffered REM rebound syndrome, a fairly nasty and unpleasant
> side effect.
>
> Parnate, OTOH, has not greatly decreased my ability to dream, even
> at 60 mg/day. The small dose of Risperdal I have recently added to
> it has increased my dreaming somewhat more also. In general,
> however, MAOIs seem to suppress REM sleep.
Todd, I recall reading somewhere that taking SSRIs can cause very vivid dreaming (or nightmares).It was this which made me think that vivid deaming can have a clear biochemical origin. And then I figured that it may not be so outlandish to think that if the biochemistry caused by the SSRIs were reversed then it might result in reduced vividness.
In my friend's case her extremely vivid dreaming pre-dates her SSRI, Lexapro, by a very long time so I don't think there is any cause & effect there. I believe it is just a co-incidence.
But I am left with the question, how can she reduce the extreme vividness of her dreaming by using meds?
Posted by King Vultan on January 11, 2005, at 12:09:43
In reply to Do MAOIs make normal people high? » King Vultan, posted by Don_Bristol on January 11, 2005, at 9:48:06
>
>
> Todd, I recall reading somewhere that taking SSRIs can cause very vivid dreaming (or nightmares).
>
> It was this which made me think that vivid deaming can have a clear biochemical origin. And then I figured that it may not be so outlandish to think that if the biochemistry caused by the SSRIs were reversed then it might result in reduced vividness.
>
> In my friend's case her extremely vivid dreaming pre-dates her SSRI, Lexapro, by a very long time so I don't think there is any cause & effect there. I believe it is just a co-incidence.
>
> But I am left with the question, how can she reduce the extreme vividness of her dreaming by using meds?
Probably the biggest reason Nardil reduced my dreaming so much was its effect on norepinephrine. Increasing norepinephrine transmission generally seems to cut down on dreaming, based on what I've read and from my own experience with various drugs. Desipramine was probably the 2nd strongest of the drugs I've been on as far as reducing dreaming, and this is a very powerful and selective norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor. I have not done a lot of research on the subject of nightmares, as I really do not get them, but there are probably therapies that have been developed for this.In response to your question about MAOIs in the subject line, I've read that they can have a mood elevating effect even on non-depressed individuals. I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that, and being a chronic depression patient, I have no way to judge its validity personally.
Todd
Posted by zeugma on January 11, 2005, at 16:05:23
In reply to Re: Do MAOIs make normal people high? » Don_Bristol, posted by King Vultan on January 11, 2005, at 12:09:43
TCA's are what you want if you want to reduce constant, vivid dreaming.
SSRI's block REM, but they have the paradoxical effect over the long term of creating a sense of continuous dreaming. This is because they disrupt sleep architecture to roughly the same degree that they suppress sexual function (in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't an intimate relation between them).
-z
Posted by ed_uk on January 12, 2005, at 3:59:53
In reply to How to stop vivid dearming / nightmares?, posted by Don_Bristol on January 10, 2005, at 15:04:09
Has anyone found desipramine to be effective in preventing nightmares?
Ed.
Posted by Ktemene on January 12, 2005, at 5:21:59
In reply to How to stop vivid dearming / nightmares?, posted by Don_Bristol on January 10, 2005, at 15:04:09
> My girlfriend has very vivid dreams. And sometimes these vivid dreams are equally vivid nightmares.
>
> She can wake up after 9 or 10 hours sleep feeling very exhausted and not rested.
>
> She currently takes 20 mg Lexapro and has done so for about two years. However she has always had the dreaming/nightmares even when she was not taking any meds.
>
> Is there anything she can take to reduce the dreaming? Or at least to reduce how much of them is remembered?
>
> (By contrast I am the other extreme and I almost never know what I have dreamed and I would say I have not dreamed anything.)
>
> Thank you.There was a report (I have copied it below) that Remeron is effective in stopping nightmares without stopping REM sleep. I don't know whether there was a follow-up study. But I have noticed that since I began taking Remeron I no longer have the horrible nightmares I used to have.
Am J Psychiatry 159:1948-1949, November 2002
(c) 2002 American Psychiatric Association
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Letter to the EditorMirtazapine for PTSD Nightmares
JONATHAN D. LEWIS, M.D.
Chicago, Ill.To the Editor: I would like to report on the use of the antidepressant mirtazapine for the treatment of nightmares characteristic of severe posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and of the insomnia that accompanies these nightmares. The group under consideration consists of more than 300 patients treated at several community clinics serving refugees in the Chicago metropolitan area. While these refugees come from many different parts of the world, including Southeast Asia, Bosnia, Kosovo, several African nations, and Latin America, they are united in having experienced catastrophic stress levels. These patients have experienced one or more of the following: wartime violence and witnessing death as combatants or civilians, detainment in prison camps or concentration camps, physical and psychological torture, including the persistent threat of death, and for women, repeated sexual assault, usually by representatives of governmental and paramilitary forces.
Often the exposure to trauma and terror has extended over a period of years. The patients are frequently retraumatized during the exodus from their native countries. While these patients usually exhibit the entire range of symptoms characteristic of PTSD, it is the pervasive disturbance of sleep by nightmares that so often stands in the way of healing. We have found mirtazapine especially helpful in mitigating these symptoms by suppressing nightmare activity or in blocking the memory of the dream state upon awakening. Consequently, sleep becomes restorative and patients have more psychic energy for combating the daytime symptoms of PTSD. While exact figures are not yet available, I estimate that of more than 300 patients treated, approximately 75% have reported improvement due to reduction of the frequency and intensity of nightmares. A substantial minority of these patients have reported a total absence of dreams related to the traumatic events.
Although such patients are often treated with multiple medications, typically a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor and an anxiolytic, it was not until mirtazapine was introduced as part of the treatment regimen that the dramatic reduction in nightmares occurred. Reports of side effects are extremely rare. The excessive drowsiness and weight gain sometimes reported by patients taking mirtazapine for depression almost never occur when this drug is used to treat severe PTSD. Certainly, carefully planned research to test these findings is necessary. However, it was felt important to report the positive result of this use of mirtazapine for this disorder, given the devastating effects of the nightmares and sleeplessness caused by catastrophic stress.
Posted by Don_Bristol on January 15, 2005, at 13:26:50
In reply to Re: How to stop vivid dearming / nightmares? » Don_Bristol, posted by Ktemene on January 12, 2005, at 5:21:59
Can Remeron be taken with an SSRI?
My friend is on 20mg Lexapro and it is taken for OCD so can't very easily be substituted for another type of antidepressant (except Anafranil).
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.