![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by samplemethod on May 28, 2003, at 10:42:47
Why does SAMe and TMG work on some people, whereas NADH, niacinamide work on others?
The info below raises many questions, but I cant go through them at the moment. Must sleep. Though this is very interesting info from:
http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/bipolar.htm
HAve people on this board looked into these categories:
Enjoy :)
-----------------------------------------------
The Pfeiffer Treatment Center (PTC) possesses an extensive database of biochemical data from more than 1500 patients they have treated for bipolar disorder. The PTC express their concern that many nutritional treatments offered are highly generalized and can produce unpleasant effects. Their research has found that a subgroup of bipolar patients are deficient in arachidonic acid, an omega-6 fatty acid. They have developed three primary biochemical classifications of bipolar disorder as follows (written by and printed with permission of co-founder and chief-scientist of the PTC, William Walsh, Ph.D):
Undermethylation: This condition is innate & is characterized by low levels of serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine, high whole blood histamine and elevated absolute basophils. This population has a high incidence of seasonal allergies, OCD tendencies, perfectionism, high libido, sparse body hair, and several other characteristics. They usually respond well to methionine, SAMe, calcium, magnesium, omega-3 essential oils (DHA & EPA), B-6, inositol, and vitamins A, C, and E. They should avoid supplements containing folic acid. In severe cases involving psychosis, the dominant symptom is usually delusional thinking rather than hallucinations. They tend to speak very little & may sit motionless for extended periods. They may appear outwardly calm, but suffer from extreme internal anxiety.
Overmethylation: This condition is the biochemical opposite of undermethylation. It is characterized by elevated levels of serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine, low whole blood histamine, and low absolute basophils. This population is characterized by the following typical symptoms: Absence of seasonal, inhalent allergies, but a multitude of chemical or food sensitivities, high anxiety which is evident to all, low libido, obsessions but not compulsions, tendency for paranoia and auditory hallucinations, underachievement as a child, heavy body hair, hyperactivity, "nervous" legs, and grandiosity. They usually respond well to folic acid, B-12, niacinamide, DMAE, choline, manganese, zinc, omega-3 essential oils (DHA and EPA) and vitamins C and E, but should avoid supplements of methionine, SAMe, inositol, TMG and DMG.
Pyrrole Disorder: This condition, also called pyroluria, is a genetic stress disorder associated with severe mood swings, high anxiety, and depression. The biochemical signature of this disorder includes elevated urine kryptopyrroles, a double deficiency of zinc and B-6, and low levels of arachidonic acid. Pyrolurics are devastated by stresses including physical injury, emotional trauma, illness, sleep deprivation, etc. Symptoms include sensitivity to light and loud noises, tendency to skip breakfast, dry skin, abnormal fat distribution, rage episodes, little or no dream recall, reading disorders, underachievement, histrionic behaviors, and severe anxiety. They usually respond quickly to supplements of zinc, B-6, Primrose Oil, and augmenting nutrients.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 11:13:25
In reply to NADH, TMG, undermethylated, overmethylated people , posted by samplemethod on May 28, 2003, at 10:42:47
> Why does SAMe and TMG work on some people, whereas NADH, niacinamide work on others?
I'm not sure that these would work on different people, the way you suggest. Both groups work for me.
> The info below raises many questions, but I cant go through them at the moment. Must sleep. Though this is very interesting info from:
>
> http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/bipolar.htm
>This came up maybe six or eight weeks ago? What I like about the approach is it attempts to discriminate certain symptoms with respect to certain nutrients. However, I doubt that everybody is going to fit neatly into one category or another.
I personally do well with nutrients from more than one category. You will also find nutrients that appear on more than one list, e.g. vitamin C. I guess everybody should be taking those, eh?
It's a good starting point, but I don't agree with everything that's presented.
Lar
Posted by Caleb462 on May 28, 2003, at 13:04:54
In reply to NADH, TMG, undermethylated, overmethylated people , posted by samplemethod on May 28, 2003, at 10:42:47
> Undermethylation: This condition is innate & is characterized by low levels of serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine, high whole blood histamine and elevated absolute basophils. This population has a high incidence of seasonal allergies, OCD tendencies, perfectionism, high libido, sparse body hair, and several other characteristics. They usually respond well to methionine, SAMe, calcium, magnesium, omega-3 essential oils (DHA & EPA), B-6, inositol, and vitamins A, C, and E. They should avoid supplements containing folic acid. In severe cases involving psychosis, the dominant symptom is usually delusional thinking rather than hallucinations. They tend to speak very little & may sit motionless for extended periods. They may appear outwardly calm, but suffer from extreme internal anxiety.
Hmm... a lot of this sounds like me, except for perfectionism. Larry, why do they suggest avoiding folic acid? I've read this many times, particularly about OCD folks, that they should avoid folic acid. I take a B-complex tablet that contains 100% of the RDA for folic acid. I don't believe I've noticed any worsening of OCD from this, however.
>
> Overmethylation: This condition is the biochemical opposite of undermethylation. It is characterized by elevated levels of serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine, low whole blood histamine, and low absolute basophils. This population is characterized by the following typical symptoms: Absence of seasonal, inhalent allergies, but a multitude of chemical or food sensitivities, high anxiety which is evident to all, low libido, obsessions but not compulsions, tendency for paranoia and auditory hallucinations, underachievement as a child, heavy body hair, hyperactivity, "nervous" legs, and grandiosity. They usually respond well to folic acid, B-12, niacinamide, DMAE, choline, manganese, zinc, omega-3 essential oils (DHA and EPA) and vitamins C and E, but should avoid supplements of methionine, SAMe, inositol, TMG and DMG.Heh... well some of this sounds like me to. Categorization/generalization never tends to work out well.
>
> Pyrrole Disorder: This condition, also called pyroluria, is a genetic stress disorder associated with severe mood swings, high anxiety, and depression. The biochemical signature of this disorder includes elevated urine kryptopyrroles, a double deficiency of zinc and B-6, and low levels of arachidonic acid. Pyrolurics are devastated by stresses including physical injury, emotional trauma, illness, sleep deprivation, etc. Symptoms include sensitivity to light and loud noises, tendency to skip breakfast, dry skin, abnormal fat distribution, rage episodes, little or no dream recall, reading disorders, underachievement, histrionic behaviors, and severe anxiety. They usually respond quickly to supplements of zinc, B-6, Primrose Oil, and augmenting nutrients.
>And this sounds quite a lot like me!! Hm.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 13:53:02
In reply to Re: - Larry , posted by Caleb462 on May 28, 2003, at 13:04:54
> Hmm... a lot of this sounds like me, except for perfectionism. Larry, why do they suggest avoiding folic acid? I've read this many times, particularly about OCD folks, that they should avoid folic acid. I take a B-complex tablet that contains 100% of the RDA for folic acid. I don't believe I've noticed any worsening of OCD from this, however.
This "avoid folate in OCD" concept is oft repeated, but I have yet to find a primary reference that demonstrates anything of the sort, nor have I found so much as a rationale for the belief.
B-12 and folate work together, and B-12 deficiency has been associated with OCD. Inositol also is thought to be useful in OCD.
(snip)
> Heh... well some of this sounds like me to. Categorization/generalization never tends to work out well.
(snip)
> And this sounds quite a lot like me!! Hm.Hypochondriasis? <grin>
I think that any time somebody starts trying to "draw lines" between or around different disorders, there are going to be errors made. And the biggest error is believing that lines belong anywhere, IMHO. You start confusing theory for reality, and then everything gets mucked up.
Lar
Posted by McPac on May 28, 2003, at 17:20:20
In reply to Re: - Larry » Caleb462, posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 13:53:02
This "avoid folate in OCD" concept is oft repeated, but I have yet to find a primary reference that demonstrates anything of the sort, nor have I found so much as a rationale for the belief.
>>>>>>>>>>>In layman's language, Pfeiffer told me that folic acid (and also niacin) help BUILD histamine levels...very high histamine levels (which I was tested to have by Pfeiffer) BLOCK serotonin production....low serotonin is thought to be a big factor in ocd (and many forms of depression?).....(serotonin-enhancing meds have always worked like a charm for me...of course the major side-effects suck though)...so they have me avoiding folic acid and niacin......I also tested pyrroluric as well.....some of Pfeiffer's stuff REALLY hit the nail on the head w/me...but not everything...it's not an exact match....what's funny is that for a short while, before going to Pfeiffer, I started taking folic acid and told them that I thought I'd felt BETTER.....this stuff all gets so very complex at times...why people were created soooooo damn complex (especially the brain!) I'll never know...when I feel fine I usually try to forget all this crap, lol....take care & be well!
Posted by linkadge on May 28, 2003, at 18:27:03
In reply to sample/Caleb/Larry, posted by McPac on May 28, 2003, at 17:20:20
Folic Acid has specific Serotogenic Effects in itself. Doesn't folic acid improve methyation ?
There have been a dozen or so studies that link folic acid to depressive states. One study found a remarkable increase in remission when adding Folic acid to Prozac. Folic Acid and B12 have direct effect on MAO, I believe.
Folic Acid has effects on nerve regeneration, and brain growth. A study that looked at aging Nuns (I believe) found the only nutrient that negativly correlated Alzheimers and Dimentia was Folic Acid.
Personally I fit perfectly into the category that recomends no Folic Acid, but have had *remarkable* success with Celexa and Folic Acid.
Personally I would try all the suplements mentioned and keep a detailed journal.
Linkadge
Posted by samplemethod on May 28, 2003, at 19:15:43
In reply to Folic Acid, posted by linkadge on May 28, 2003, at 18:27:03
Ok, well I agree with you Lar on the statement that lines should not be drawn and people dont always fit into nice groups...especially when linking supps to all the different DSM categories.
What I think we should all really focus on is to target methylation and cysteine levels.
First, find out which vits/supps have a great impact on methylation and homocysteine levels.
Second, find out if you over or undermethylate and choose the supps that directly affect methylation to a great degree in a balancing direction.
See I reckon some supps are good for many things, and not just methylation. You probably need all normal vits and supps in your diet, such as folate.
So what you do is take a balanced supplementation....then depending on how much you naturally methylate and how much those so called essential vits/supps methylate, take a methylater (or if in your case something that affects in the other direction (would that be just termed as a substance that raises cysteine, or just reduces methylation?) - having done that, you will come to a balanced level of methylation (and the consequent effects).
What do you guys think about this method??
Now all we gotta do is find out how much certain substances ACTUALLY affect the methylation process.
sampleM
> Folic Acid has specific Serotogenic Effects in itself. Doesn't folic acid improve methyation ?
>
> There have been a dozen or so studies that link folic acid to depressive states. One study found a remarkable increase in remission when adding Folic acid to Prozac. Folic Acid and B12 have direct effect on MAO, I believe.
>
> Folic Acid has effects on nerve regeneration, and brain growth. A study that looked at aging Nuns (I believe) found the only nutrient that negativly correlated Alzheimers and Dimentia was Folic Acid.
>
>
> Personally I fit perfectly into the category that recomends no Folic Acid, but have had *remarkable* success with Celexa and Folic Acid.
>
>
> Personally I would try all the suplements mentioned and keep a detailed journal.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
Posted by samplemethod on May 28, 2003, at 19:27:16
In reply to Re: What we should really focus on, posted by samplemethod on May 28, 2003, at 19:15:43
Woops, I didnt mean cysteine, I meant histamine levels. You can tell I just woke up!!
Also in relation to histamine levels, this may be why suppp people really respond well to antihistamines and use them for mental comfort.Was that Claratin that people were going on about a few days ago an antihist?
ANyway catchya guys
sampleM
> Ok, well I agree with you Lar on the statement that lines should not be drawn and people dont always fit into nice groups...especially when linking supps to all the different DSM categories.
>
> What I think we should all really focus on is to target methylation and cysteine levels.
>
> First, find out which vits/supps have a great impact on methylation and homocysteine levels.
>
> Second, find out if you over or undermethylate and choose the supps that directly affect methylation to a great degree in a balancing direction.
>
> See I reckon some supps are good for many things, and not just methylation. You probably need all normal vits and supps in your diet, such as folate.
>
> So what you do is take a balanced supplementation....then depending on how much you naturally methylate and how much those so called essential vits/supps methylate, take a methylater (or if in your case something that affects in the other direction (would that be just termed as a substance that raises cysteine, or just reduces methylation?) - having done that, you will come to a balanced level of methylation (and the consequent effects).
>
> What do you guys think about this method??
>
> Now all we gotta do is find out how much certain substances ACTUALLY affect the methylation process.
>
> sampleM
>
> > Folic Acid has specific Serotogenic Effects in itself. Doesn't folic acid improve methyation ?
> >
> > There have been a dozen or so studies that link folic acid to depressive states. One study found a remarkable increase in remission when adding Folic acid to Prozac. Folic Acid and B12 have direct effect on MAO, I believe.
> >
> > Folic Acid has effects on nerve regeneration, and brain growth. A study that looked at aging Nuns (I believe) found the only nutrient that negativly correlated Alzheimers and Dimentia was Folic Acid.
> >
> >
> > Personally I fit perfectly into the category that recomends no Folic Acid, but have had *remarkable* success with Celexa and Folic Acid.
> >
> >
> > Personally I would try all the suplements mentioned and keep a detailed journal.
> >
> >
> > Linkadge
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by samplemethod on May 28, 2003, at 19:41:06
In reply to Re: What we should really focus on, posted by samplemethod on May 28, 2003, at 19:27:16
One other thing.
I am wondering. My SelemiteB, which contains selenium in the form of yeast bound selenium, and apparently is also rich in selenomethionine and ohter seleno amino acids.
I am wondering if this is a good methylater?
anyone know?
thanks
> Woops, I didnt mean cysteine, I meant histamine levels. You can tell I just woke up!!
>
>
> Also in relation to histamine levels, this may be why suppp people really respond well to antihistamines and use them for mental comfort.
>
> Was that Claratin that people were going on about a few days ago an antihist?
>
> ANyway catchya guys
>
> sampleM
>
>
> > Ok, well I agree with you Lar on the statement that lines should not be drawn and people dont always fit into nice groups...especially when linking supps to all the different DSM categories.
> >
> > What I think we should all really focus on is to target methylation and cysteine levels.
> >
> > First, find out which vits/supps have a great impact on methylation and homocysteine levels.
> >
> > Second, find out if you over or undermethylate and choose the supps that directly affect methylation to a great degree in a balancing direction.
> >
> > See I reckon some supps are good for many things, and not just methylation. You probably need all normal vits and supps in your diet, such as folate.
> >
> > So what you do is take a balanced supplementation....then depending on how much you naturally methylate and how much those so called essential vits/supps methylate, take a methylater (or if in your case something that affects in the other direction (would that be just termed as a substance that raises cysteine, or just reduces methylation?) - having done that, you will come to a balanced level of methylation (and the consequent effects).
> >
> > What do you guys think about this method??
> >
> > Now all we gotta do is find out how much certain substances ACTUALLY affect the methylation process.
> >
> > sampleM
> >
> > > Folic Acid has specific Serotogenic Effects in itself. Doesn't folic acid improve methyation ?
> > >
> > > There have been a dozen or so studies that link folic acid to depressive states. One study found a remarkable increase in remission when adding Folic acid to Prozac. Folic Acid and B12 have direct effect on MAO, I believe.
> > >
> > > Folic Acid has effects on nerve regeneration, and brain growth. A study that looked at aging Nuns (I believe) found the only nutrient that negativly correlated Alzheimers and Dimentia was Folic Acid.
> > >
> > >
> > > Personally I fit perfectly into the category that recomends no Folic Acid, but have had *remarkable* success with Celexa and Folic Acid.
> > >
> > >
> > > Personally I would try all the suplements mentioned and keep a detailed journal.
> > >
> > >
> > > Linkadge
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by Caleb462 on May 28, 2003, at 22:07:41
In reply to Re: What we should really focus on, posted by samplemethod on May 28, 2003, at 19:27:16
> Woops, I didnt mean cysteine, I meant histamine levels. You can tell I just woke up!!
>
>
> Also in relation to histamine levels, this may be why suppp people really respond well to antihistamines and use them for mental comfort.
>
> Was that Claratin that people were going on about a few days ago an antihist?
>Claritin is an anti-histamine, but it does not act on the central nervous system. At this point, it seems to be a mystery why Claritin has anti-sexual dysfunction and other odd effects.
I do find anti-histamines calming, to some extent. Nothing dramatic, but effective on some occasions. Sometimes, however - they induce moderate to severe irritability.. I believe this has more to do with the anti-chollinergic effect of most anti-histamines, than the anti-histamine effect itself.
Posted by Caleb462 on May 28, 2003, at 22:10:08
In reply to Re: - Larry » Caleb462, posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 13:53:02
> > Hmm... a lot of this sounds like me, except for perfectionism. Larry, why do they suggest avoiding folic acid? I've read this many times, particularly about OCD folks, that they should avoid folic acid. I take a B-complex tablet that contains 100% of the RDA for folic acid. I don't believe I've noticed any worsening of OCD from this, however.
>
> This "avoid folate in OCD" concept is oft repeated, but I have yet to find a primary reference that demonstrates anything of the sort, nor have I found so much as a rationale for the belief.
>
> B-12 and folate work together, and B-12 deficiency has been associated with OCD. Inositol also is thought to be useful in OCD.
>
> (snip)
> > Heh... well some of this sounds like me to. Categorization/generalization never tends to work out well.
> (snip)
> > And this sounds quite a lot like me!! Hm.
>
> Hypochondriasis? <grin>
lol. Well, I always have had some mild hypochondriac tendencies, though I attribute most of it to OCD. But basically I was pointing out that such categorizations just don't work well in most instances, as I display prominent symptoms from all three groups.> I think that any time somebody starts trying to "draw lines" between or around different disorders, there are going to be errors made. And the biggest error is believing that lines belong anywhere, IMHO. You start confusing theory for reality, and then everything gets mucked up.
Well said.
Posted by Caleb462 on May 28, 2003, at 22:16:13
In reply to sample/Caleb/Larry, posted by McPac on May 28, 2003, at 17:20:20
> This "avoid folate in OCD" concept is oft repeated, but I have yet to find a primary reference that demonstrates anything of the sort, nor have I found so much as a rationale for the belief.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>In layman's language, Pfeiffer told me that folic acid (and also niacin) help BUILD histamine levels...very high histamine levels (which I was tested to have by Pfeiffer) BLOCK serotonin production....low serotonin is thought to be a big factor in ocd (and many forms of depression?)Hmm... well, as you may know... I think the "low serotonin" theory of psychiatric disorders is for the most part, complete crap. It seems to be generally accepted among pharmacologists and the like, that mental illness is much much much more complex than a neurotransmitter deficiency. Psychiatrists, drug companies and the general public continue to latch on to the "monoanime hypothesis" however.
.....(serotonin-enhancing meds have always worked like a charm for me...of course the major side-effects suck though)...so they have me avoiding folic acid and niacin......I also tested pyrroluric as well.....some of Pfeiffer's stuff REALLY hit the nail on the head w/me...but not everything...it's not an exact match....what's funny is that for a short while, before going to Pfeiffer, I started taking folic acid and told them that I thought I'd felt BETTER.....this stuff all gets so very complex at times...why people were created soooooo damn complex (especially the brain!) I'll never know...when I feel fine I usually try to forget all this crap, lol....take care & be well!
Indeed. I was reading a loooong article on the serotonin system earlier today. It was more in-depth than anything else I'd stumbled upon, and boy, is it confusing. I'll post it if I can find it again.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 22:17:45
In reply to Re: What we should really focus on, posted by samplemethod on May 28, 2003, at 19:15:43
> Ok, well I agree with you Lar on the statement that lines should not be drawn and people dont always fit into nice groups...especially when linking supps to all the different DSM categories.
I am also concerned that some assumptions about why the groups have been created the way they have been, with respect to methylation/histamine, may be conditional, or even erroneous. I'm still trying to figure it all out.
> What I think we should all really focus on is to target methylation and cysteine levels.
You corrected this later, to read histamine, rather than cysteine, yes?
> First, find out which vits/supps have a great impact on methylation and homocysteine levels.
There are two processes. One, the major process in most people, requires folate and B-12. B-12 is the methyl donor here.
The other is an inducible process, requiring betaine (trimethylglycine). Homocysteine + betaine --> methionine + dimethylglycine. Betaine is the methyl donor here.
In both cases, the methionine goes on to form S-adenosyl methione (SAMe), which is the methyl donor involved in the vast majority of enzymatic reactions involving methyl donation.
> Second, find out if you over or undermethylate and choose the supps that directly affect methylation to a great degree in a balancing direction.I really am not convinced that you can overmethylate. Undermethylate, yes, but over? Hmmm.....
> See I reckon some supps are good for many things, and not just methylation. You probably need all normal vits and supps in your diet, such as folate.That's why I can't understand the argument that folate should be avoided.
The major neuronal degradation process for histamine requires SAMe. Fine, I agree with them that both methionine supplementation and SAMe supplementation ought to bring down brain histamine levels (in the suggested case of undermethylation/high histamine).
However, in the case of overmethylation/low histamine, it is suggested that you supplement with B-12 and folate, yet avoid TMG and SAMe. The problem is (for my conceptualization) B-12 and folate do the same damn thing as TMG, i.e. increase methionine, and in turn, SAMe.
Now, folate is part of the process of forming histidine, the precursor to histamine, but histamine is formed from histidine in an enzymatic decarboxylation that depends on B-6, not folate. Moreover, folate also participates in alternative products formed from histidine. Folate makes it, and breaks it, eh? You see, there's a lot going on, and it's awful hard (in my humble opinion) to isolate just one reaction series, and say "this nutrient does this", without completely ignoring a whole number of other processes.
> So what you do is take a balanced supplementation....then depending on how much you naturally methylate and how much those so called essential vits/supps methylate, take a methylater (or if in your case something that affects in the other direction (would that be just termed as a substance that raises cysteine, or just reduces methylation?) - having done that, you will come to a balanced level of methylation (and the consequent effects).
>
> What do you guys think about this method??My method requires doing the experiment. In other words, try the stuff, and see if you feel better or not. All the thought experiments, analysis of mechanisms, etc., in the world aren't going to tell you that.
> Now all we gotta do is find out how much certain substances ACTUALLY affect the methylation process.
>
> sampleMI hope I answered that question.
Lar
Posted by leor on May 29, 2003, at 14:26:30
In reply to Re: What we should really focus on » samplemethod, posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 22:17:45
If I recall, this discussion started off with NADH. Perhaps we can return to that subject now. I am wondering does NADH overmethylate or undermethylate? Or neither? I found that it had a motivation enhancing effect for the first few weeks of my use. Ever since, it has caused me fatigue. Perhaps I need to modify my dosage (currently 2.5 mg daily) but I suspect it will be of little benefit.
All this information is very interesting for me to digest. My gut reaction is that I am suffering from undermethylation (I have all the symptoms and have responded well to those of the suggested supplements I have tried).
Is there a test that can be performed to discern whether one suffers from under or overmethylation? I know that it is impossible to measure the levels of the neurotransmitters in the bloodstream but what about whole blood histamine and absolute basophils (which according to the study are implicated in undermethylation)?
Many thanks,
Leor
> > Ok, well I agree with you Lar on the statement that lines should not be drawn and people dont always fit into nice groups...especially when linking supps to all the different DSM categories.
>
> I am also concerned that some assumptions about why the groups have been created the way they have been, with respect to methylation/histamine, may be conditional, or even erroneous. I'm still trying to figure it all out.
>
> > What I think we should all really focus on is to target methylation and cysteine levels.
>
> You corrected this later, to read histamine, rather than cysteine, yes?
>
> > First, find out which vits/supps have a great impact on methylation and homocysteine levels.
>
> There are two processes. One, the major process in most people, requires folate and B-12. B-12 is the methyl donor here.
>
> The other is an inducible process, requiring betaine (trimethylglycine). Homocysteine + betaine --> methionine + dimethylglycine. Betaine is the methyl donor here.
>
> In both cases, the methionine goes on to form S-adenosyl methione (SAMe), which is the methyl donor involved in the vast majority of enzymatic reactions involving methyl donation.
>
> > Second, find out if you over or undermethylate and choose the supps that directly affect methylation to a great degree in a balancing direction.
>
> I really am not convinced that you can overmethylate. Undermethylate, yes, but over? Hmmm.....
>
> > See I reckon some supps are good for many things, and not just methylation. You probably need all normal vits and supps in your diet, such as folate.
>
> That's why I can't understand the argument that folate should be avoided.
>
> The major neuronal degradation process for histamine requires SAMe. Fine, I agree with them that both methionine supplementation and SAMe supplementation ought to bring down brain histamine levels (in the suggested case of undermethylation/high histamine).
>
> However, in the case of overmethylation/low histamine, it is suggested that you supplement with B-12 and folate, yet avoid TMG and SAMe. The problem is (for my conceptualization) B-12 and folate do the same damn thing as TMG, i.e. increase methionine, and in turn, SAMe.
>
> Now, folate is part of the process of forming histidine, the precursor to histamine, but histamine is formed from histidine in an enzymatic decarboxylation that depends on B-6, not folate. Moreover, folate also participates in alternative products formed from histidine. Folate makes it, and breaks it, eh? You see, there's a lot going on, and it's awful hard (in my humble opinion) to isolate just one reaction series, and say "this nutrient does this", without completely ignoring a whole number of other processes.
>
>
> > So what you do is take a balanced supplementation....then depending on how much you naturally methylate and how much those so called essential vits/supps methylate, take a methylater (or if in your case something that affects in the other direction (would that be just termed as a substance that raises cysteine, or just reduces methylation?) - having done that, you will come to a balanced level of methylation (and the consequent effects).
> >
> > What do you guys think about this method??
>
> My method requires doing the experiment. In other words, try the stuff, and see if you feel better or not. All the thought experiments, analysis of mechanisms, etc., in the world aren't going to tell you that.
>
> > Now all we gotta do is find out how much certain substances ACTUALLY affect the methylation process.
> >
> > sampleM
>
> I hope I answered that question.
>
> Lar
Posted by leor on May 29, 2003, at 14:28:48
In reply to Re: What we should really focus on » samplemethod, posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 22:17:45
Has anyone on this list got suggestions as to what is the best brand of DMAE to use? Any other general suggestions regarding the use of this product would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Leor
> > Ok, well I agree with you Lar on the statement that lines should not be drawn and people dont always fit into nice groups...especially when linking supps to all the different DSM categories.
>
> I am also concerned that some assumptions about why the groups have been created the way they have been, with respect to methylation/histamine, may be conditional, or even erroneous. I'm still trying to figure it all out.
>
> > What I think we should all really focus on is to target methylation and cysteine levels.
>
> You corrected this later, to read histamine, rather than cysteine, yes?
>
> > First, find out which vits/supps have a great impact on methylation and homocysteine levels.
>
> There are two processes. One, the major process in most people, requires folate and B-12. B-12 is the methyl donor here.
>
> The other is an inducible process, requiring betaine (trimethylglycine). Homocysteine + betaine --> methionine + dimethylglycine. Betaine is the methyl donor here.
>
> In both cases, the methionine goes on to form S-adenosyl methione (SAMe), which is the methyl donor involved in the vast majority of enzymatic reactions involving methyl donation.
>
> > Second, find out if you over or undermethylate and choose the supps that directly affect methylation to a great degree in a balancing direction.
>
> I really am not convinced that you can overmethylate. Undermethylate, yes, but over? Hmmm.....
>
> > See I reckon some supps are good for many things, and not just methylation. You probably need all normal vits and supps in your diet, such as folate.
>
> That's why I can't understand the argument that folate should be avoided.
>
> The major neuronal degradation process for histamine requires SAMe. Fine, I agree with them that both methionine supplementation and SAMe supplementation ought to bring down brain histamine levels (in the suggested case of undermethylation/high histamine).
>
> However, in the case of overmethylation/low histamine, it is suggested that you supplement with B-12 and folate, yet avoid TMG and SAMe. The problem is (for my conceptualization) B-12 and folate do the same damn thing as TMG, i.e. increase methionine, and in turn, SAMe.
>
> Now, folate is part of the process of forming histidine, the precursor to histamine, but histamine is formed from histidine in an enzymatic decarboxylation that depends on B-6, not folate. Moreover, folate also participates in alternative products formed from histidine. Folate makes it, and breaks it, eh? You see, there's a lot going on, and it's awful hard (in my humble opinion) to isolate just one reaction series, and say "this nutrient does this", without completely ignoring a whole number of other processes.
>
>
> > So what you do is take a balanced supplementation....then depending on how much you naturally methylate and how much those so called essential vits/supps methylate, take a methylater (or if in your case something that affects in the other direction (would that be just termed as a substance that raises cysteine, or just reduces methylation?) - having done that, you will come to a balanced level of methylation (and the consequent effects).
> >
> > What do you guys think about this method??
>
> My method requires doing the experiment. In other words, try the stuff, and see if you feel better or not. All the thought experiments, analysis of mechanisms, etc., in the world aren't going to tell you that.
>
> > Now all we gotta do is find out how much certain substances ACTUALLY affect the methylation process.
> >
> > sampleM
>
> I hope I answered that question.
>
> Lar
Posted by Paulie on May 29, 2003, at 20:04:48
In reply to What is the best brand of DMAE? , posted by leor on May 29, 2003, at 14:28:48
Twinlab is good in terms of quality and price. Been taking DMAE for 19 yrs and have not noticed any difference between several brands that I've tried. Vitacost has the best price I've seen for Twinlab.
http://vitacost.com/Store/products/Products.cfm?SubCategoryID=2954&dropdown1=productNote: DMAE caps or tabs are DMAE bitartrate which is 37% DMAE. The label should state mgs. as DMAE(from DMAE bitartrate). If it says (for instance) 100mg DMAE bitartrate you're only getting 37mg DMAE-not much. Twinlab makes a liguid form of DMAE(the PABA salt of DMAE)which is also good.
Paul
Posted by McPac on May 29, 2003, at 20:40:28
In reply to Re: What we should really focus on » samplemethod, posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 22:17:45
I'll be returning to Pfeiffer this Summer...if there are questions that you have for them I can try to get the answers when I go?
Posted by Ron Hill on May 29, 2003, at 21:22:20
In reply to Re: What we should really focus on, posted by leor on May 29, 2003, at 14:26:30
Hi Loer,
> I am wondering does NADH overmethylate or undermethylate? Or neither? I found that it had a motivation enhancing effect for the first few weeks of my use. Ever since, it has caused me fatigue. Perhaps I need to modify my dosage (currently 2.5 mg daily) but I suspect it will be of little benefit.
About two weeks into my Enada NADH trial I ran into a problem where the supplement made me VERY sleepy-tired. In my case, the side effect resolved when I lowered the dosage. Today I continue to experience very good results using 2.5 mg twice a week of Enada NADH (in conjunction with 250 mg/day of TMG) to treat the atypical depressive phase of my BP II disorder.
When you say "fatigue", I assume you are talking about a feeling of physical exhaustion and low energy as opposed to a sleepy-tiredness. Therefore, what I have said may or may not be applicable to your situation. However, if I were you, I'd back the dose down and see if it starts to work for you again.
-- Ron
P.S. I also take 600 mg/day of Lithobid for my hypomania and 250 mg/day of niacin to control my dysphoric mood states (irritability). I'll not bore you by listing all of the vitamins, minerals and supplements that I take since they are numerous. However, I mentioned the ones I did because they are the main contributors to my currently well balanced brain chemistry.
Posted by Blake G on May 30, 2003, at 0:16:22
In reply to Re: NADH, TMG, undermethylated, overmethylated people » samplemethod, posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 11:13:25
Not everyone does fit into one of the three catagories. The Pfeiffer Treatment Center further claims that 4% of people in their bipolar database have serius problems with malabsorption.
Pyroluria may also overlap with a methylation/histamine imbalance. This goes for other medical problems which may be contibuting to the symptoms, such as hypoglycemia, hormonal imbalances, heavy metal accumulation, etc. The treatment approach presented by the PTC is one which is highly individualized and based on extensive laboratory results. The treatment program is then created based on these results, not purely on the initial diagnosis or bipolar phenotype.
regards,
Blake Graham
http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 30, 2003, at 16:37:16
In reply to Re: NADH, TMG, undermethylated, overmethylated people, posted by Blake G on May 30, 2003, at 0:16:22
> Not everyone does fit into one of the three catagories. The Pfeiffer Treatment Center further claims that 4% of people in their bipolar database have serius problems with malabsorption.
>
> Pyroluria may also overlap with a methylation/histamine imbalance. This goes for other medical problems which may be contibuting to the symptoms, such as hypoglycemia, hormonal imbalances, heavy metal accumulation, etc. The treatment approach presented by the PTC is one which is highly individualized and based on extensive laboratory results. The treatment program is then created based on these results, not purely on the initial diagnosis or bipolar phenotype.
>
> regards,
>
> Blake Graham
> http://www.nutritional-healing.com.auI appreciate the "insider view". Would you care to comment on the apparent contradiction between simultaneously supplementing with B-12/folate, while avoiding TMG?
Lar
Posted by Blake G on May 30, 2003, at 22:14:00
In reply to Re: NADH, TMG, undermethylated, overmethylated people » Blake G, posted by Larry Hoover on May 30, 2003, at 16:37:16
> I appreciate the "insider view". Would you care to comment on the apparent contradiction between simultaneously supplementing with B-12/folate, while avoiding TMG?
>
> LarMore information on this topic can be found at the following link:
Commentary on Nutritional Treatment of Mental Disorders (Willam Walsh, Ph.D., Senior Scientist, Pfeiffer Treatment Center www.hriptc.org)
http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/walsh.htmBlake
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