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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 5 of 5. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by IsoM on June 3, 2002, at 19:08:49
Kate, I'm quoting you from another post:
"Consider this oversimplification: serotonin is the necessary ingredient for good sleep and empathy, and norepinephrine is needed for daily energy and confidence, shopping energy for example."I'm not disagreeing with you in the least - just interested where you know or read about serotonin with sleep & empathy?
I've got empathy oozing out of me & sleep far too easily (& ADs that have an effect on serotonin have never improved my headaches at all - a neurologist suggested most migraines/tension headaches were related to serotonin). It's always the energy, actually stamina & motivation, that's my problem.
I'd just love to read & learn more. I've read a lot over many years on neurotransmitters but new facts keep getting discovered all the time. Thanks for anything you can share.
Posted by katekite on June 4, 2002, at 14:28:41
In reply to for Katekite, posted by IsoM on June 3, 2002, at 19:08:49
Hi -- its a gross overgeneralization. I get the "empathy" thing from ecstasy use -- ecstasy being one of the most powerful serotonergic agents (both releases it and is a potent re-uptake inhibitor) and heightened empathy being a consistent ecstasy reaction. And users that overdose get toxicity that later inhibits emotional feeling. Plus there's that general sense that many people who look depressed sure aren't interested in the rest of us (not empathetic) and get annoyed easily and then are 'fixed' by ssris. But to be realistic ecstasy also stimulates dopamine which probably is why people get so caught up in the feeling and why they feel so rewarded for staying at the rave. And most non-empathetic irritable depression probably isn't so simple as needing serotonin. So take it with a grain of salt. I put two abstracts on ecstasy at the very end.
Sleep is simpler: a rise in serotonin makes you feel sleepy, pretty accepted. Serotonin is released by eating, so after a big turkey dinner everyone feels pleasantly warm and nods off. A big glass of warm milk before bed really may help sleep induction. Sleep is not solely dependent on serotonin though... some balance thing between serotonin and norepinephrine.
"In addition to changes in brain wave patterns, brain chemicals also fluctuate during sleep. The two major neurotransmitters involved in sleep are serotonin and norepinephrine. At the onset of sleep serotonin is secreted which increases NREM (non-rapid eye movement, stage 1 - 4 sleep). Secretion of norepinephrine takes place during REM resulting in increase of REM. Fluctuation between stages of sleep are thought to be due to secretion of these two neurotransmitters (Franken, 1994). Notably, a successful treatment of depression is to awaken the patient at the onset of REM sleep. This regulates the imbalance of norepinephrine and serotonin, alleviating depression (Carlson, 1991). However, additional findings about REM deprivation suggest an increase in aggression which lasts after REM deprivation is discontinued (Ellman & Antrobus, 1991)."
(http://www.csun.edu/~vcpsy00h/students/sleep.htm)
(waking people up apparently only works for some people's depression if they sleep excessively, and then only some people and as above they may be angry about it).----------------
If you find yourself over-empathied and more sleepy than you should be with ADs you might try for one that has more dopaminergic or more norepinephrine properties -- ie more stimulating, more arousing. These would be high dose remeron, high dose effexor, (which it would still be hard to know because of the hefty primary serotonin enhancement) or wellbutrin. Or a tricyclic like desipramine or maois that at least may be more balanced. (this is of course assuming that the upregulation downregulation thing somehow isn't as important for you as the immediate AD functions).
It is interesting that you have migraines on your AD given that the hypothesis behind migraines is a serotonin related sensitivity. Its all a delicate balance and really individual I think, as for example I can get a migraine off a dopaminergic med. Just for kicks, have you tried any of the anti-serotonin drugs to abort a migraine? I forget what they are named but they are often very effective.
Whee that was fun poking at my brain.... now I really need to go clean the litterbox like I meant to a long time ago.
Kate
----------------Two serotonin/ecstasy abstracts:
Recreational Ecstasy/MDMA, the serotonin syndrome, and serotonergic neurotoxicity.
Parrott AC.
Department of Psychology, University of East London, E15 4LZ, London, UK
The ring-substituted amphetamine derivative 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) or "Ecstasy" is widely used a recreational drug. It stimulates the release and inhibits the reuptake of serotonin (5-HT) and other neurotransmitters such as dopamine to a lesser extent. The acute boost in monoamine activity can generate feelings of elation, emotional closeness, and sensory pleasure. In the hot and crowded conditions of raves/dances, mild versions of the serotonin syndrome often develop, when hyperthermia, mental confusion, and hyperkinesia predominate. Rest in a cooler environment generally reverses these problems, although they can develop into medical emergencies, which occasionally prove fatal. This acute serotonergic overactivity is exacerbated by the high ambient temperatures, overcrowding (aggregate toxicity), and use of other stimulant drugs. The on-drug experience is generally followed by negative moods, with 80--90% of weekend Ecstasy users reporting 'midweek blues', due probably to monoaminergic depletion. Single doses of MDMA can cause serotonergic nerve damage in laboratory animals, with repeated doses causing extensive loss of distal axon terminals. Huether's explanatory model for this 5-HT neurotoxicity will be briefly described. There is an increasing body of evidence for equivalent neuropsychobiological damage in humans. Abstinent regular Ecstasy users often show: reduced cerebrospinal 5-HIAA, reduced density of 5-HT transporters, blunted response to a fenfluramine challenge, memory problems, higher cognitive deficits, various psychiatric disorders, altered appetite, and loss of sexual interest. Functional deficits may remain long after drug use has ceased and are consistent with serotonergic axonal loss in higher brain regions.
------------------------------
Psychol Rep 2001 Jun;88(3 Pt 1):895-902 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut
Ecstasy is a dangerous drug.
Murray JB.
Psychology Department, St. John's University, 8000 Utopia Parkway, Jamaica, NY 11439, USA.
Ecstasy, a dangerous psychoactive drug, has become a popular recreational drug on college campuses and dance halls in the United States, United Kingdom, and around the world. No reports on ecstasy have shown addictiveness, and some users of ecstasy claim they prefer infrequent use which is not the usual addictive pattern. Jaw clenching, bruxism, and some cardiac arrhythmias requiring medical attention have been associated with consumption of ecstasy and some fatalities. In large scale retrospective questionnaire studies of subjective experiences users claimed that they felt a gentle relaxation and openness to others and few adversive effects. In rats and monkeys ecstasy has caused depletion of the neurotransmitter serotonin in the brain but similar effects have not been identified for humans. Case reports have shown panic attacks, flashbacks, paranoia, and even fatalities. The Drug Enforcement Administration in 1985 placed ecstasy in Schedule I, the most restrictive drug category
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Posted by JonW on June 4, 2002, at 18:07:21
In reply to for Katekite, posted by IsoM on June 3, 2002, at 19:08:49
> Kate, I'm quoting you from another post:
> "Consider this oversimplification: serotonin is the necessary ingredient for good sleep and empathy, and norepinephrine is needed for daily energy and confidence, shopping energy for example."
Hi all,I just want to point out how little we know about how the brain works. It may be possible to make a generalization about the effects of increased serotonin and norepinephrine, but it should be pointed out that the ripple effect or the result of this increase are likely more important than these neurotransmiters themselves. Such generalizations could ultimately be far removed from what really happens and far less useful. Not that Kate didn't already say it was an oversimplification, but I felt like posting and there was nothing else to respond to ;)
Waiting for the panacea,
Jon
Posted by katekite on June 4, 2002, at 22:09:07
In reply to Re: for Katekite, posted by JonW on June 4, 2002, at 18:07:21
I totally agree... I can't argue with the idea the ssris take 6 weeks to work but raise serotonin on day one.
What's weird to me though, is how close it actually has come, for me, if I oversimplify. Like if I say: I've got almost but not quite enough serotonin, that I have too much norepinephrine, and not enough dopamine -- all the drugs I've taken make sense with regard to their most recognized mechanisms and fall neatly into categories. It is so tempting to believe in the oversimplified version.
One thing that trips me up is how easy it is to find an explanation if I specifically look for it. For example, if I type in search words "empathy" and "serotonin" I will be almost certain to find at least one person that thinks empathy comes solely from serotonin. Or that serotonin is anti-empathy. I'll find something. Seek and yee shall find in pubmed. Even if its not really true. It is very difficult to find out if what you're reading is an accepted theory, a wormy hypothesis, or the lifework of a crackpot, given that in pubmed, everything sounds very scientific.
So -- buyer beware.
kate
Posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 13:20:50
In reply to Seek and yee shall find in medline/pubmed » JonW, posted by katekite on June 4, 2002, at 22:09:07
Hi Kate,
I'm certainly waiting for the day anti-depressants work like Advil, but aren't we all? Medline is a great resource, and I agree completely with what you said. You can follow any thought pattern like "...this drug affects this receptor in this way which had such and such effect on me so I wonder if this disorder has anything to do with this receptor then..." I've come to the conclusion that everything has to do with everything but there's obviously more to it than that. And my brain definitely seems to need serotonergic drugs, but I also like dopaminergic or noradrenergic drugs but I'm not sure which. Maybe I need it all (my brain is selfish :)), and being on Nardil will suit me well!
Fingers crossed,
Jon> I totally agree... I can't argue with the idea the ssris take 6 weeks to work but raise serotonin on day one.
>
> What's weird to me though, is how close it actually has come, for me, if I oversimplify. Like if I say: I've got almost but not quite enough serotonin, that I have too much norepinephrine, and not enough dopamine -- all the drugs I've taken make sense with regard to their most recognized mechanisms and fall neatly into categories. It is so tempting to believe in the oversimplified version.
>
> One thing that trips me up is how easy it is to find an explanation if I specifically look for it. For example, if I type in search words "empathy" and "serotonin" I will be almost certain to find at least one person that thinks empathy comes solely from serotonin. Or that serotonin is anti-empathy. I'll find something. Seek and yee shall find in pubmed. Even if its not really true. It is very difficult to find out if what you're reading is an accepted theory, a wormy hypothesis, or the lifework of a crackpot, given that in pubmed, everything sounds very scientific.
>
> So -- buyer beware.
>
> kate
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