![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 44. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by CarolAnn on June 10, 2000, at 10:08:27
I just suddenly wondered if anyone had heard of any natural ways to supplement dopamine? I mean, we have 5htp and St. John's Wort for Serotonin, and I'm not sure about where Sam-e's effectiveness is. But, I don't think I've ever heard of any dopamine effectors that didn't need prescriptions. Any ideas? Or has this been covered and I missed it? Just curious, CarolAnn
Posted by BBob on June 10, 2000, at 11:50:46
In reply to question about dopamine, posted by CarolAnn on June 10, 2000, at 10:08:27
Anything fun.
Anything fun, or rewarding tends to promote the release of dopamine. Chemically, coffee, chocolate, and nicotine have all been connected with dopaminergic activity. Socially, things like sex, sports and power-brokerage are sometimes associated with dopamine.
Evolutionary biological-psychology suggets that dopaine evolved to help the simplest creatures learn what is benificial for their survival. Bees purportedly use dopaminergic networks to help them recall the location of choice nectar-bearing flowers.
When we discuss reinforcing properties of commonly abused drugs, we are talking about upregulation of dopaminergic synapses frontal-limbic networks associated with commonly abused drugs. When we talked about whether the President of the United States suffered from a sexual addiction, the presumption was that he had by practice upregulated dopamenergic receptor sites along the synapses of cognitive networks built around sexual habits.
In drug-abuse counseling, clinicians urge clients to orient their "pleasure centers" around socially constructive activities.
Of course all of these answers fail to address the psycho-pharmaceutical question. Some diseases are associated with dopamine difficencies. Some activists say wider access to now-outlawed medications, such as cannibas or coca, would provide reliable, affordable treatments for diseases related to dopa deficits. But dopa-mobilizing substances, such as cannibas or coca, are outlawed for that very reason, and that is why we are unlikely to find substances that are very specific or efficacious for increasing dopamine among the legal pharmacopia - they tend to cause euphoria, and people tend to accept that chemically induces euphoria as an alternative to the pleasure that would otherwise be found in social activities.
> I just suddenly wondered if anyone had heard of any natural ways to supplement dopamine? I mean, we have 5htp and St. John's Wort for Serotonin, and I'm not sure about where Sam-e's effectiveness is. But, I don't think I've ever heard of any dopamine effectors that didn't need prescriptions. Any ideas? Or has this been covered and I missed it? Just curious, CarolAnn
Posted by JohnL on June 10, 2000, at 19:19:44
In reply to question about dopamine, posted by CarolAnn on June 10, 2000, at 10:08:27
CarolAnn,
SJW affects dopamine. Though all its mechanisms are not fully understood, they have shown that it inhibits the reuptake of serotonin, NE, and dopamine in about equal proportions. As for SAMe, again I don't think they know enough about it. But I have seen in literature that it too has dopamine enhancing effects.
But if you're looking for something that affects purely dopamine and nothing else, I can't think of anything. Some people claim taking the amino acid tyrosine directly boosts dopamine. I think it can to a certain extent, but there is a built in feedback loop that prevents this from working as much as we would like. I have yet to actually see anyone here actually get well with tyrosine supplementation, but it's touted a lot at the websites that sell it. Who knows.
I know this isn't what you we referring to. I'm just throwing this in for a bit of light trivia. Marijuana boosts dopamine 6-fold. And when you drink alcohol, it causes a rush of dopamine. But as we all know, these are very short-lived effects. Definitely not what we're looking for. :-)
JohnL
Posted by michael on June 11, 2000, at 16:57:07
In reply to Re: question about dopamine, posted by JohnL on June 10, 2000, at 19:19:44
Maybe I'm misunderstandin the question - was it essentially looking for dopamine agonists?
There are all the items that andrewB is exploring: amisulpride (low dose), mirapex?, selegiline (low dose - maoi-b), even sinemet (levodopa). Or maybe I'm addressing a different question than the one that was actually asked?
> CarolAnn,
>
> SJW affects dopamine. Though all its mechanisms are not fully understood, they have shown that it inhibits the reuptake of serotonin, NE, and dopamine in about equal proportions. As for SAMe, again I don't think they know enough about it. But I have seen in literature that it too has dopamine enhancing effects.
>
> But if you're looking for something that affects purely dopamine and nothing else, I can't think of anything. Some people claim taking the amino acid tyrosine directly boosts dopamine. I think it can to a certain extent, but there is a built in feedback loop that prevents this from working as much as we would like. I have yet to actually see anyone here actually get well with tyrosine supplementation, but it's touted a lot at the websites that sell it. Who knows.
>
> I know this isn't what you we referring to. I'm just throwing this in for a bit of light trivia. Marijuana boosts dopamine 6-fold. And when you drink alcohol, it causes a rush of dopamine. But as we all know, these are very short-lived effects. Definitely not what we're looking for. :-)
> JohnL
Posted by Johnturner77 on June 12, 2000, at 14:24:53
In reply to Re: question about dopamine » JohnL , posted by michael on June 11, 2000, at 16:57:07
> The question about natural dopamine enhancers needs to be more specific. Marijuana may increase Dopamine 6 fold but it seems to rather easily deplete it. Chronic use left me bereft of short term memory, totally unfocussed, and apathetic. I haven't studied its mode of operation but I suspect it doesn't block reuptake beneficially.
Cocaine may cause a storm of dopamine, but it doesn't effectively boost sensitivity in a way that helps anhedonics respond normally to pleasurable input. Addiction itself is a short circuited approach to pleasure. The drug brings it directly by overwhelming the brain.
I suspect what CarolAnn really was asking was; is there a natural substance, that when taken over time, awakens the ability of the brain to experience pleasure and enhances the drive for reward?
Posted by BBob on June 12, 2000, at 15:14:52
In reply to Re: question about dopamine, posted by Johnturner77 on June 12, 2000, at 14:24:53
> I suspect what CarolAnn really was asking was; is there a natural substance, that when taken over time, awakens the ability of the brain to experience pleasure and enhances the drive for reward?
Would that substance perhaps be balanced involvement in a sustainable culture? I think that would be substantial.That may sound smarmy, but I mean it with all of my aching, concerned heart. I am sincerely concerned that upregulation of our drive for reward downgrades our ability to experience pleasure.
I have said this again and again on P-babble, but if the nuerology labs were as busy exploring the normal function of our brains as they were looking for drugs to control those functions, and if they were so open-minded as to allow that their findings might indict our consumer culture, they might begin to tell us in specific neurological terms that such pleasures as attaining a graduate degree, winning a league championship, buying a new ski boat or riding a 747 to Paris increases dopamine 6 fold but also seems to rapidly deplete dopamine reserves in the same way as does marijuana.
On the otherside, intentionally experiencing a natural setting, with no hope of reward but that of the experience itself, might allow receptors to rest and perhaps restore themselves to a more reasonable density so that witnessing the coming of spring, blossoming of a flower or even coming of autumn and the end of a life is sufficient reward in its own right.
Enjoying natural pleasures, I believe, is especially important because the experience likely allows our brains to experience ourselves as part of a meta-system that requires few controling reactions on our part. That is faith in its pure form - faith in something beyond our own human constructs.
These feelings we are so ready to call depression, I have learned in my own life, are often the feelings associated with not requiring myself to satisfy the ever-increasing need for pleasure and reward. I have found a melancholy comfort in enduring these feelings, and hope with all of my heart that, in future generations, the general expectation of reward will not be so great as to trigger the countercoup we call depression.
Posted by Rockets on June 12, 2000, at 18:11:56
In reply to Re: question about dopamine, posted by BBob on June 12, 2000, at 15:14:52
D E E P BBob..
Posted by CarolAnn on June 12, 2000, at 19:05:52
In reply to Re: question about dopamine, posted by Johnturner77 on June 12, 2000, at 14:24:53
>
>> I suspect what CarolAnn really was asking was; is there a natural substance, that when taken over time, awakens the ability of the brain to experience pleasure and enhances the drive for reward?>>BINGO! Johnturner77!
The whole question begins with the cliche, which many depressives are told,"when you are depressed, do something that makes you feel good". As most of us know, when we are depressed, there just ain't anything that we can physically do that feels good. First of all the fatigue and or anhedonia make it impossible to do anything at all, even if our common sense knows that it would improve our mood. Second, when a person is depressed, nothing that anyone suggests is going to seem worth the trouble!
I get so angry when people say things to me like,"Take a long leisurely bubble bath, go for a walk in the woods, buy yourself a beautiful bouquet of flowers, do something that gives you pleasure, ect., ect.," HELLLOOOO!! I'm depressed, nothing gives me pleasure, in fact, I don't even think that I have the capability to feel pleasure. And I certainly don't have the energy to try and figure out what would give me pleasure, much less, actually go out and do it!
Sorry to rant, but I know that most of you know exactly what I am talking about. CarolAnn
Posted by Kerry on June 12, 2000, at 20:00:32
In reply to Re: I'm sure you can all relate to this reply..., posted by CarolAnn on June 12, 2000, at 19:05:52
CarolAnn: Yes, yes, yes. Sick of people (especially family) telling me to go for a walk or get my nails done or take a bath. So many people assume you can "will" your way out of depression. "Okay! I'm not going to be depressed anymore, wasn't that fun? " The other day a relative told me to make a list of the things I'm grateful for. Ack, the drudgery of such a task...depressing. I'm quite a self-loathing depressive and I also hear I'm supposed to make a list of all my positive qualities/traits. The whole idea of doing that makes me want to vomit.
Posted by Bbob on June 12, 2000, at 20:50:12
In reply to Re: I'm sure you can all relate to this reply..., posted by CarolAnn on June 12, 2000, at 19:05:52
Frankly, my vomiting (reference to previous post) starts when people suggest that, since I do not allow pdocs to label me depressive, or embrace the medical label of "clinical depression" (what do clinics have to do with it?) I do not suffer from exactly the same condition as they do - affectually and neurochemically.
I don't know if CarolAnn's this reply was to what I wrote, but for me to ASSESS how we got this way, and to RECOMMEND an easy way out are two different things.
My ASSESSMENT has to do with a culture that has set its expectations way to high, that expects constant positive feedback, and that has lost touch with the simple rewards to be had of recognizing our temporal, insignifigant place in the order of the universe. I guess I made the mistake of writing here that this SICK condition of our society can likely be measured as upregulation of dopaminergic receptor sites.
I tend to convulse into the throes of dry heaves when people tell me that, since they are "clinically depressed" they somehow have a franchise on the expertise required to understand the CONSEQUENCES of participation in such a culture as ours or that my understanding of my moods is, well, not worthy of discussion.
But for RECOMENDATIONS, to any person, I have none, unless you want to be my friend, and anyone who wants to be my friend has to find their way up from their networked cathode ray tube, and be willing to hang with people whose interest goes beyond a concern over their moods and who can abide some long-term discomfort.
I can't even write to this site anymore without wondering if something I say will be "going to far." It certainly does not feel like a very safe place for a person who considers unhappiness to be likely reaction to events in our time, and who has taken the time to TRY to reach an understanding of the neurochemistry involved.
EXCUSE ME FOR ACCIDENTALLY LIVING, *ROCKET*. I am so sure that by writing *DEEP* on your computer, you can more easily dismiss me as a person who is not worthy of your consideration.
If, in case anyone happened to stumble across me as an unfortunate life form, I am also UNaBlE(?) (more like unwilling, but no difference) to seek pleasure. I have learned to abide with very minimal pleasure, Excuse me if recognize it. I am fine with that. In fact, I HOPE it makes people uncomfortable to see the displeasure I feel in their SICK AMERICAN CAPITALIST INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY.
pffff... F**K this!
> >> I suspect what CarolAnn really was asking was; is there a natural substance, that when taken over time, awakens the ability of the brain to experience pleasure and enhances the drive for reward?>>
>
> BINGO! Johnturner77!
> The whole question begins with the cliche, which many depressives are told,"when you are depressed, do something that makes you feel good". As most of us know, when we are depressed, there just ain't anything that we can physically do that feels good. First of all the fatigue and or anhedonia make it impossible to do anything at all, even if our common sense knows that it would improve our mood. Second, when a person is depressed, nothing that anyone suggests is going to seem worth the trouble!
> I get so angry when people say things to me like,"Take a long leisurely bubble bath, go for a walk in the woods, buy yourself a beautiful bouquet of flowers, do something that gives you pleasure, ect., ect.," HELLLOOOO!! I'm depressed, nothing gives me pleasure, in fact, I don't even think that I have the capability to feel pleasure. And I certainly don't have the energy to try and figure out what would give me pleasure, much less, actually go out and do it!
> Sorry to rant, but I know that most of you know exactly what I am talking about. CarolAnn
Posted by claire 7 on June 12, 2000, at 21:29:12
In reply to Re: question about dopamine, posted by Rockets on June 12, 2000, at 18:11:56
> D E E P BBob..
Jesus, I can't believe what a supportive place this is. C R U D E Rockets. 6 T H G R A D E Rockets. Like they say in the comics ##@*&%^ *&%@!
Posted by claire 7 on June 12, 2000, at 21:37:18
In reply to Re: question about dopamine, posted by Rockets on June 12, 2000, at 18:11:56
> D E E P BBob..
Just before I read this thread I read part of one where somebody told somebody else "This might be a good time to start talking to God."
"Rockets", don't you think you ought to make a sage response to that? CarolAnn, doesn't that provoke even a slight gag response? If not, could you explain why?
Posted by shar on June 12, 2000, at 23:26:16
In reply to all relate? (SORRY, from Bbob the non-human), posted by Bbob on June 12, 2000, at 20:50:12
I am afraid to respond to you.
S
Posted by PeterC on June 13, 2000, at 0:09:56
In reply to Frankly, Bbob....., posted by shar on June 12, 2000, at 23:26:16
> I am afraid to respond to you.
> SRespond to CarolAnn, then.
I did not respond to offer her personal advice. I don't think her subjective experience with conditions classified as depression disqualifies me from commenting, from either a subjective or objective perspective about conditions classified as depression. Frankly we don't "all" relate to her reply ... unless I am somehow not human.
But her question was not couched in personal terms. It was tagged "just curious." It did not even ask about dopamine in reference to a specific diagnosed condition. My response was honest, well-intended and based in a widely shared understanding. Please lets not start a wildfire. That was not my intention.
Perhaps it is cultural differences that allow someone to presume that when they ask a general question, it conveys a personal subjective implication, but we can't all anticipate what others subjective experience will be, nor what implications they convey behind generalized questions. Maybe some catch the implication, but not all.
But, even if personal experience with the conditions usually labeled as depression affords someone a paramount right to comment on those conditions, consider that I might share the condition, but approach it differently. If my approach is untennable for someone else, that does not mean that it is untennable for me or for others.
boBB, BBob, boB, and others
Posted by KarenB on June 13, 2000, at 4:19:10
In reply to Fire prevention, posted by PeterC on June 13, 2000, at 0:09:56
Dear Carol Ann,
To answer your question (that IS how this thread started out isn't it?), with my limited knowledge, I would suggest you do some internet research on L-Tyrosine, Phenylalanine and GABA.
There are books in health food stores giving suggested dosage, etc. Remember, if you are going to try these things that you must give a fair trial as you would any other med - people have a tendency to take herbal remedies more sporadically, probably because they don't take them as seriously, and as a result never do find out if they actually WORK.
Moving on to topic #2...I am the one(mentioned by "claire 7"), who suggested that someone in the throes of detoxing from Heroin may want to start talking to God. Heroin was not my drug of choice but what I suggested to this individual certainly worked for me when I needed it...and has continued to work for the past 18 years. Not many can say that about their AD, I would venture to say. I was not, and am not, trying to force an issue - just sharing personal experience that changed my life. Anyone interested may e-mail me and I'd love to talk BUT...I will not defend my stand any further in this arena. To me, it's like arguing whether the sky is blue. If it makes someone (or a group of single bodied personas) "gag," then so be it.
I must tell you, BoBB-claire-PeterC-etc., I am not sure whether you were defending the right to an individual's opinion OR restraining your own inalienable right to gag yourself. Hard to tell. You (collectively) use a brand of sarcasm of which I am unfamilar and often find wordy and hard to follow. My shortcoming, most likely, so don't take this as an attack. I do think this is an interesting forum, however, in which to so strongly force your opinions, that you may hurt others who are here to find some refuge and seek "education and support," as it states at the top of the page. I have pondered what your real motives may be but have come up with...well, not much. Maybe (all of) you can enlighten me.
I must agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion regarding these depression - brain - chemical THEORIES...HYPOTHESIS...WHATEVER. Nobody really knows. I feel like 50 years from now, modern Psychopharmacology may be seen in the same light as "magic elixers" sold by traveling salesmen at the turn of the century. I would hope not but does anyone really KNOW anything when it comes to this stuff?
The truth is, we are mostly just trying to get "well," aren't we? I don't know about you. And not all of us buy into the materialistic be-happy mandate of our western culture. Some of us aren't just looking for "happy" - "sane" would be sufficient. Don't go lumping us all together, BoBBs. You don't know where we've been any more than we know about you.
It's very, very late. Hope this was coherent. Hope I don't get too badly burned by it, as well. It's dangerous around here lately and I do find that sad.
Wishing you all the best - sincerely.
Karen
Posted by SLS on June 13, 2000, at 7:21:15
In reply to Re: I'm sure you can all relate to this reply..., posted by CarolAnn on June 12, 2000, at 19:05:52
> >
> >> I suspect what CarolAnn really was asking was; is there a natural substance, that when taken over time, awakens the ability of the brain to experience pleasure and enhances the drive for reward?>>
>
> BINGO! Johnturner77!
> The whole question begins with the cliche, which many depressives are told,"when you are depressed, do something that makes you feel good". As most of us know, when we are depressed, there just ain't anything that we can physically do that feels good. First of all the fatigue and or anhedonia make it impossible to do anything at all, even if our common sense knows that it would improve our mood. Second, when a person is depressed, nothing that anyone suggests is going to seem worth the trouble!
> I get so angry when people say things to me like,"Take a long leisurely bubble bath, go for a walk in the woods, buy yourself a beautiful bouquet of flowers, do something that gives you pleasure, ect., ect.," HELLLOOOO!! I'm depressed, nothing gives me pleasure, in fact, I don't even think that I have the capability to feel pleasure. And I certainly don't have the energy to try and figure out what would give me pleasure, much less, actually go out and do it!
> Sorry to rant, but I know that most of you know exactly what I am talking about. CarolAnn
Perhaps the best we can hope for is distraction.
- Scott
Posted by CarolAnn on June 13, 2000, at 8:54:06
In reply to all relate? (SORRY, from Bbob the non-human), posted by Bbob on June 12, 2000, at 20:50:12
BBob, I wasn't even thinking of you when I wrote the reply to Johnturner77. I shouldn't have written "you all can relate", and within the post I did change 'all' to 'most'. The purpose of the post was to commiserate with those of us who have had to put up with such simplistic suggestions of how to stop being depressed!
I will say that I am coming to a better understanding of your stance on labeling, and I do admire your ability to keep living a productive life despite whatever problems you may have. However; just as you don't want to be labeled with a mental health diagnoses, we who are labeled don't want to be told by non-depressives that we could stop being depressed if we just find enjoyable things to do. In my case, I have plenty of "enjoyable" activities in my life(playing with my daughter for one), and yet, my illness will not let me *feel* the *joy* such activities should create.
As far as trying to get beyond our illnesses and try to live productive, socially active lives, you have no idea how much I would love to do just that. Unfortunately, my depression manifests itself in such extreme fatigue, that there are times when I actually feel completely paralyzed with inability to accomplish anything.
You are right in that labeling depression doesn't matter, but please accept that most of us write to this board, because we are not strong enough to live our lives 'around' the depression. This is why so many of us are desperate to find medical help in the form of therapy and/or medication.
In closing, let me say that I have tried very hard to write this post as inoffensively as possible, because it's only purpose is to share my experience and that of the people whose experience is similar to mine. Please, please, do not read any slurs between the lines. None were intended and if they are there, it is only due to my poor ability to express myself. I have always suffered 'foot in mouth' disease, and probably always will! Sincerely, CarolAnn
Posted by claire 7 on June 13, 2000, at 9:51:18
In reply to Re: Carol Ann, Dopamine and others..., posted by KarenB on June 13, 2000, at 4:19:10
Actually, I didn't mean to suggest the idea of someone talking to god makes ME gag. My question, I think, had more to do with why are some "extra-medical" suggestions more acceptable than others here? Truth is, I'm at a stage where drugs no longer seem the answer for me, and it IS educational and supportive for me to read posts from people who are trying a different route. Though I haven't read every post in the archives, I do seem to keep stumbling onto threads where people who are trying a different route get blasted in what seems to me to be an insensitive and uncivil way. Rockets' sarcastic reply to a post that was meaningful and interesting to me felt like a kick in the teeth. And I'm sorry that I misinterpreted CarolAnn's post as being a response to boBB's---
I'm coming to the conclusion that chat rooms of any kind are probably not a good way for me to interact.(I first touched a computer about 2 1/2 months ago, so I'm not an experienced hand at this.) But it seems sad that minorities here, in
virtual life, are treated much the same as they are in real life. Lord knows why that should surprise me. Just a cock-eyed optimist, I guess.
Posted by KarenB on June 13, 2000, at 13:49:28
In reply to Re: Carol Ann, Dopamine and others..., posted by claire 7 on June 13, 2000, at 9:51:18
Dear claire,
Thank you for your post and for the clarification. I had a feeling that you were not as offended by my suggestion as you were trying to make a point for tolerance of non-medicinal approaches.
In my opinion, we ARE a minority here already. Not only are most of us labeled "mentally ill," we are in the "treatment resistant" subcategory thereof.
I am not against alternative treatment - I'll try it all, if there's a chance it will work. I've literally suffered all my life and want, desperately, to get well. However, I think it wise to do it systematically and with knowledge behind my med trials. That is why I come here and I'm still glad that I do. Unfortunately, I have yet to find a doc who is as knowledgable as he/she should be and caring enough to truly help me. So, I pay the outrageous fees and I do much of the research. They hold the pen and the pad. Otherwise, I would most likely be on the SSRI du jour, going more insane by the day.
I am a mother of two small children and do not want to miss a single minute of their childhood - that is why, despite financial strain, I stay home with them. Nor do I want them to have a Mommy who is not truly alive and all she really IS. I have a lot to give and teach them when I am well and functional. I don't need to be 100% to do that - I'm not 100% NOW but it sure beats what I am WITHOUT the meds. Without them, my mind goes straight to suicidal ideology without passing "Go."
If cognitive therapy worked for me, I'd be doing it. I've tried herbs, meditation, etc., etc. In my teens I self medicated with illicit street drugs. That did not work very well but it was actually better than the SSRIs:) With God's help (and ONLY because of His help)I got off alcohol and illegal drugs 18 years ago and didn't even take aspirin for the first 10 years. Unfortunately, the depressions got deeper and longer in duration, to the extent that meds were my only option for relief and some semblance of normalcy. And, for you friends of Bill, I was fully sober, worked all 12 steps and was not on a "dry drunk," as they say.
We are all at different levels of treating our "conditions," so I agree that we should be a little more tolerant of one another's current regimin or point of view, whatever they may be. However, the delivery of those opinions must be respectful, if they are to be received. I think that is what is meant by "please be civil." There's a big difference between being offended by someone's position and being personally hurt. I'm talking to myself here too, claire.
BTW, I'm completely understanding of CarolAnn's post. The moral of that story is: never... EVER, EVER ask someone who has not suffered real depression to give you advice on feeling better. Don't even tell them anything that may be misinterpreted as a solicitation. Unless... you want to be told to "pick yourself up by your own bootstraps, walk on the sunny side of the street, make lists of things for which you're grateful, get your nails done and take a bubble bath..." That all sounds great, when I'm not depressed. When I am, I couldn't care enough to do any of those things if I tried.
Wishing you wellness.
Karen
Posted by Oddzilla on June 13, 2000, at 14:53:21
In reply to Re: claire - alternative views, posted by KarenB on June 13, 2000, at 13:49:28
I'm reading a new book from the library-Your Miracle Brain by Jean Carper. It's about using food and supplements to make the brain function better. It's pretty mainstream and quotes a lot of research studies. A quote from the jacket:
Myth: You are born with a genetically determined brain of fixed size and potential, and there is nothing you can do to change it.
Reality: Your brain is a growing, changing organ and you can greatly improve the very structure, wiring, and functioning of your brain cells by what you eat and the supplements you take.
It isn't specifically for people with depression but I found it very encouraging.
I agree with the people who will try anything that helps. I sometimes wonder how much damage the medications were doing to my brain in addition to what was all ready there waiting to be corrected. I want to try to give my brain some general support in gratitude for all the adventures it's taken me on;). I know it's not easy to start some new diet and health program when you all ready feel bad (I had quit taking vitamins because I was just too tired to swallow them).Anyway I thought some of you might be interested. O.
Posted by Rockets on June 13, 2000, at 15:11:43
In reply to all relate? (SORRY, from Bbob the non-human), posted by Bbob on June 12, 2000, at 20:50:12
Heh.. Bbob. You're funny sometimes. Peace.
Posted by claire 7 on June 13, 2000, at 15:12:45
In reply to Re Book Recommendation, posted by Oddzilla on June 13, 2000, at 14:53:21
O.Z., if I may be so familiar....For some strange reason your sentence "I wanted to give my brain some general support in gratitude for all the adventures it's taken me on" made me cry!
I finished my 3-month taper-down (Effexor and Remeron) on Friday. Despite the lengthy weaning, (and I did them one at a time)I've had some very miserable weeks of withdrawal; but then I've been on one AD or another for 12 years, so my poor brain had some serious readjusting to do.You know, I think you made me cry because you made me think of my brain with affection and sympathy for perhaps the first time in my life.
I think this will be a useful symbol for me to keep in mind in the next months.THANK YOU! Claire
Posted by claire 7 on June 13, 2000, at 15:30:07
In reply to Re: Re Book Recommendation, posted by claire 7 on June 13, 2000, at 15:12:45
P.S. to O.Z.
Currently reading (re-reading, actually) PRODUCTIVE AND NONPRODUCTIVE DEPRESSION, Emmy Gut.
Posted by shar on June 13, 2000, at 22:44:33
In reply to Re: I'm sure you can all relate to this reply..., posted by CarolAnn on June 12, 2000, at 19:05:52
Carol Ann,
I can definitely relate to what you're talking about with other people ("normals" ?) giving advice or trying to "cheer you up."I find it extremely bothersome, and I will go so far as to include my doctors (not my pdoc) who say "that should be controllable with diet (or aerobics, or ...whatever?" Arrgghh.
I usually tell them if there was an effective dietary/aerobic/etc. change that would eliminate depression, I would definitely want to try it immediately. 'Til then, I'm staying with my antidepressants.
I liken it to diabetes and insulin. You make a good point. Thanks.
S
Posted by CarolAnn on June 14, 2000, at 9:11:13
In reply to Re: I'm sure you can all relate to this reply..., posted by shar on June 13, 2000, at 22:44:33
How absolutely CLUELESS is it for these Doctors(and others) to promote "exercise" as a depression remedy? I mean, I read all the literature, I know about endorphins, but how the hell am I supposed to start an exercise program, when my depression has me so fatigued that I'm lucky if I can even get off the couch!!! Geez, sometimes, I'm so tired I can't even get up and get something to eat when I'm starving!
Obviously, this is a huge pet peeve! :) CarolAnn
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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