![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 42 to 66 of 91. Go back in thread:
Posted by special_k on April 4, 2006, at 22:46:11
In reply to Re: I wonder why Dr. Bob won't accept my scarf, posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 18:11:13
i think legwarmers is right about the boundary stuff.
> Maybe Dr. Bob doesn't want to encourage my love obsession for him by sending me mixed messages and confusing me?
and i think that is probably right too...
i wouldn't be surprised if there was a blanket 'no gifts' policy in operation here... i think most therapists have those, but that they make exceptions in particular cases (which is taking context into account). but it can be hard to take context into account in a group setting. why? because taking context into account can lead to people thinking there are different standards for different people or something like that.
i wouldn't be surprised if there was a 'no hugs' policy either. boundaries once again.
why boundaries?
because it reduces confusion (provides more stability) and is likely to save hurts in the long run...
> Sorry I forgot to answer special k's question. My Dad and I have never been close. We don't really talk to each other. He shows his love by doing things like drive me places. My Dad was never around when I was little. He had to work all the time. I didn't really feel much for my Dad when I was little. I never really got attached to him.
yeah. so he was kinda absent...
> Could it be that I see Dr. Bob like a father? He protects me from incivility and punishes me when I'm misbehaving. I never really got that from my parents. I rarely felt protected by my parents and they never punished me. My Mom used to ignore me when I was misbehaving. Dr. Bob ignores me too. I think maybe Dr. Bob is old enough to be my father. I don't think that helps. Also, Dr. Bob has a Chinese name, that suggests he comes from a Chinese family. That doesn't help either. LOL Just one more thing that makes him like a father.yeah. quite a lot of similarity once you get thinking on it huh. not so much that he was like your dad (though i guess he is in some respects 'cause he is kinda aloof etc).... but also in that there is that kind of role going on (with the discipline etc). discipline is hard... i tended to throw a tantrum in the face of it... but consistent discipline... i think that is something that people actually need and appreciate (though there is typiclaly a lot of resentment etc in there too... espcially in the face of perceived unfairness / actual unfairness etc).
> Oh dear...LOL
heh heh.
> Special k wrote about some therapists having a no gift policy, but I don't see how that relates to this situation. Dr. Bob is not my therapist. I know the no gift policy has to do with ethics, but what would the reason be for Dr. Bob?well...
transference.
the intense feelings of love...
the intense feelings of love... IS the transference.
the rules on therapists...
are there precisely because of transference...
they are there to help protect the client so the therapist doesn't take advantage of their feelings...
he isnt' your therapist
but there are still feelings of transference
and he is a health professional
so my guess would be that he jolly well *should* be factoring in those kinds of things as therapists do.this is why it does indeed surprise me that dr bob doesn't have some board or something to be accountable to for his conduct...
i mean...
he seems to be doing this off his own bat (and doing well enough don't get me wrong)
but i would still feel a lot happier knowing there was some governing body that he was accountable to...
FWIW
Posted by special_k on April 4, 2006, at 22:51:02
In reply to Re: Boundaries -- both personal and professional » Racer, posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 22:41:25
enjoy the feelings deneb...
don't get me wrong...but IMO you should be careful to be sensitive about the boundary thing.
why?
because it can hurt when there are boundaries.
yeah it can.
just like it can hurt when there is discipline.
i mean... in your better moments you do understand your blockings eh?
and i think... that while the blockings hurt...
and you rail a bit at them (by the emails etc)
ultimately...
you have all the more respect
(and love)
for him because he does seem to be so very consistent with you.it can hurt...
but really methinks that is why the feelings are there...regarding presents and hugs...
different people have difference transference issues going on...
and some people...
need the consistency to be at arms length.
in fact...
maybe we all do really.otherwise...
confusion
lots of confusion
and ultimately more pain.because sometimes people do get confused...
Posted by special_k on April 4, 2006, at 22:56:39
In reply to Re: Boundaries -- both personal and professional, posted by special_k on April 4, 2006, at 22:51:02
and the reason i think i get this...
is because i've ended up in relationships with people i had transference feelings for. and... ultimately they didn't work out. ultimately... i don't think they really can work out into anything healthy.
and in hindsight...
i kinda do think on them as someone taking advantage of me. of my transference feelings.
and sometimes what we think we want...
is not what is good for us
which is just to say
it is not what we actually do wantthough it can take a lot of time to figure it out...
and it is a long painful and incredibly confusing road...and i know that probably seems WAY different to what is going on here and what is going on for you...
but the point is that there was quite a road for things to end up where they ultimately ended up for me (where i was in a relationship with that person)
and that road is something of a slippery slope...and so much better
so much easier
so much better for all concerned in the long runif the boundaries are firm and at arms length
and to respect that deneb
because IMO
those boundaries are what you respect
and those boundaries are what are making you feel safe
and full of love
so enjoy it
but respect the boundariesand IMO
the boundaries show that he does love and respect us
because it can be only too easy to take advantage...
Posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 23:56:26
In reply to Re: Boundaries -- both personal and professional, posted by special_k on April 4, 2006, at 22:51:02
Maybe you are right special k...maybe I do love Dr. Bob *because* of the boundaries and not *despite* the boundaries.
I really don't know how I would react if one day Dr. Bob acted like a friend towards me.
In my mind giving Bob a small hug is not going out of boundaries. What if a small hug is seen as a greeting? Right now I don't even know if I have the guts to actually ask to hug Bob. Maybe I won't even want to hug Bob.
I don't think hugging Bob will confuse me or hurt me in anyway. I know he doesn't love me like I love him. I would be scared if he loved me back.
I just have this fantasy of hugging Dr. Bob. I walk around the streets and I pretend someone is Dr. Bob and I imagine hugging that person. I hug the air in front of me and pretend I'm hugging Dr. Bob. I imagine that hugging Dr. Bob will give me a comfy feeling.
{{{{{{{Dr. Bob}}}}}}}}}
I just love Bob. :-)
Deneb
Posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 0:09:44
In reply to Re: Boundaries -- both personal and professional » special_k, posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 23:56:26
> Maybe you are right special k...maybe I do love Dr. Bob *because* of the boundaries and not *despite* the boundaries.
i think so. i really really do. but then i have been known to be wrong ;-)
> I really don't know how I would react if one day Dr. Bob acted like a friend towards me.yeah. you probably wouldn't like it at all. or maybe you would like it for a time. but then you would need him to be a rock and he wouldn't be being a rock he'd be going off about his bad day or something like that and then you would have lost bob the rock :-(
> In my mind giving Bob a small hug is not going out of boundaries.maybe not but if he gave you a hug then he would be setting precedent to give any babbler a hug who wanted one. i mean, if he gave you a hug but didn't hug poster x then poster x would start up 'its not FAIR dr bob doesn't LIKE me' etc etc. black and white rules again...
> What if a small hug is seen as a greeting?
like the scarf could be seen as a small token gift, or as a symbol of your intense affection? a hug could be seen as a greeting or as a sexual advance. for people with history of sexual abuse hugs *can* be confusing deneb.
> I don't think hugging Bob will confuse me or hurt me in anyway.
maybe not. but it could confuse / hurt other posters. confuse / hurt if he hugged them, confuse / hurt if he didn't hug them. damned either way. and hugging one is setting precedent for hugging all (otherwise 'IT ISN'T FAIR!') and hence... more confusion / hurt...
> I just have this fantasy of hugging Dr. Bob. I walk around the streets and I pretend someone is Dr. Bob and I imagine hugging that person. I hug the air in front of me and pretend I'm hugging Dr. Bob. I imagine that hugging Dr. Bob will give me a comfy feeling.ok. well... enjoy the feeling...
but i still think you should be careful about respecting boundaries...
though i do have sympathy with flouting boundaries / rules (sigh)...
i think they are there for good reason...
Posted by Racer on April 5, 2006, at 1:31:13
In reply to Re: Boundaries -- both personal and professional » Racer, posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 22:41:25
> >
> > And a word about hugs: Not everyone is OK about hugs, not everyone is OK about being touched.
>
> That's why it's important to ask. I don't plan on hugging Bob without asking. I don't plan on hugging anyone without asking.
>Because this is a big deal for me, something which has come up for me many times and makes me uncomfortable every time it does, I'm going to say this. Deneb, I'm revealing something personal about myself to you. Respect that.
I am not comfortable with hugs, most of the time. Yes, there are people I do hug, and some people whom I'm comfortable hugging, but that's a bit rare. It makes me very, very uncomfortable to be hugged without my express consent.
AND IT MAKES ME EVEN MORE UNCOMFORTABLE TO BE ASKED BY SOMEONE IF HE/SHE CAN HUG ME!
When someone asks for permission to hug me, I feel trapped between my own need NOT to be hugged when it doesn't feel comfortable, and allowing it so that I don't hurt their feelings. And you know what? Then I resent the person asking, because I feel uncomfortable.
Would you like to know that someone is uncomfortable AND resents you, because you asked for that hug?
I'm done with this. This subject has actually gotten under my skin, maybe because this is such a loaded topic for me, and I think I'd best avoid the rest of this thread.
Peace
Posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 2:40:15
In reply to Re: Boundaries -- both personal and professional » Deneb, posted by Racer on April 5, 2006, at 1:31:13
hrm.
yeah lots of issues around this stuff for a lot of peoples methinks...i learned in dbt that it was always okay to ask, so long as one can accept that the answer might be 'no'.
but some things...
i think the trouble with pushing boundaries is that people tend to withdraw a little / put up defenses / remain 'on guard' when they become aware that someone repeatedly encroaches on their boundaries.
i feel a little pissed off when someone encroaches on my boundaries too. especially when it must be apparant to them that i'm not happy about it. hard to know what bob is feeling i guess and that makes it harder... but i guess we just have to go by what he says. i'm thinking here of guys especially... when i think i'm being pretty clear that i'm not interested but they still seem to think they can make an advance or something. i think that if you are aware... you can read how someone is feeling. and if you are making them uncomfortable... if they are awkward... then i guess back off. is kind of polite and respectful. but hard online because there aren't any cues (aside from words).
i used to have a friend who used to tickle me suddenly.
it hurt kinda and i didn't like it too much but i guess 'cause i was laughing...
but i was always alert around her and never could relax...
never could let my guard down.
amusing for her i guess but not so fun for me.
i dunno.
how ya doing deneb?
pretty complicated, huh.
Posted by Deneb on April 5, 2006, at 11:48:59
In reply to Re: Boundaries -- both personal and professional » Deneb, posted by Racer on April 5, 2006, at 1:31:13
In real life, I never ask anyone for a hug. I don't even like hugs in real life. I don't even know if I will like Bob in real life.
I also don't like it when people hug me. It makes me uncomfortable. I'm not a person for hugging. I don't even know if I want to hug or be hugged at the Babble Party. Real life is very different.
I'm sorry if I made you angry. :-(
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on April 5, 2006, at 12:22:28
In reply to Racer, I don't like hugs either, posted by Deneb on April 5, 2006, at 11:48:59
I'm sorry.
I feel bad about what I've done. :-(
There will be no hugging going on at the Babble Party.
Thanks Racer, for letting me know just how much some people hate hugs.
I'm sorry I triggered you.
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on April 5, 2006, at 13:24:29
In reply to I'm sorry I triggered you Racer, posted by Deneb on April 5, 2006, at 12:22:28
This is getting complicated.
So far I've learned that hugs can be bad things. Hugging others might make them hate you. How would I know whether hugging someone would make them hate me? :-(
It's too complicated. I can't even ask to be hugged. How will I ever know when it's ok to hug someone if I can't even ask? I think it's okay to say "no" to a hug. I would say no to a hug if it makes me uncomfortable. I would say, "I'm not really into hugs".
Since I can't even ask, that means it's never okay to hug anyone.
I think Racer should tell others that hugging makes her uncomfortable. I bet people would rather she tell them than have her resent them. I think we should all be open and honest about things, instead of hiding things.
Dr. Bob can tell me that hugging makes him uncomfortable. I won't feel bad if he said that. Why is it socially unacceptable to say things like that? I don't get it.
When I ask people something, I expect them to tell me the truth. Is it really that difficult to say, "Hugging makes me uncomfortable"?
I expect Dr. Bob to tell me if he doesn't want to be hugged. That's it, I'm going to ask and he's going to tell me. That's the best way to handle things. I won't be upset if he doesn't want to hug me. People should tell the truth about these things. I would tell the truth. I would very much appreciate it if someone were to ask my permission for a hug instead of just hugging me. At times spontaneous hugging has made me a little uncomfortable. If they had asked me, I would have said, "I'm not really into hugging."
I never resent people for hugging me. I don't do that. That's just who I am.
It's safe to ask to hug me. I shouldn't be made to feel bad about asking to hug someone. Hugging is supposed to make people feel good. If one doesn't feel good about it, one should say that. The hugger doesn't want to make the "huggee" feel bad.
That's it, I'm going to ask for a hug from Dr. Bob. I expect him to tell me if he's uncomfortable with it. I expect people to be open and honest about what they feel. If someone feels angry with me, I want them to tell me that instead of resenting me behind my back. I like being direct.
Deneb*
Posted by gardenergirl on April 5, 2006, at 13:56:23
In reply to It should be ok to ask to hug, posted by Deneb on April 5, 2006, at 13:24:29
> >
> It's safe to ask to hug me. I shouldn't be made to feel bad about asking to hug someone. Hugging is supposed to make people feel good. If one doesn't feel good about it, one should say that. The hugger doesn't want to make the "huggee" feel bad.
>In the spirit of being direct...I just have to point out that the other person cannot "make you feel bad" just because they might react to something you do in a negative way. Feeling bad about it is something that begins within you. If you were entirely indifferent to the others' feelings, you wouldn't feel bad if they reacted negatively. Or, your own empathy about how the other person now feels may lead you to feel bad for your perceived role in it. But that comes from within you in reaction to what happened.
For examople, my FIL gets very angry when someone comments on his memory. But when a mistake comes up and needs to be clarified or corrected (say, he forgot what time an appt. was), are we really "bad" for dealing with the problem since he got mad? Yes, he gets mad about it, but that is his reaction. Our behavior did not cause it. We didn't "make him feel" mad. It comes from how he interprets the incident and what is said, how he feels internally about it, and anything else in his psyche related to how he might process such an incident. Does that make sense?
I guess in some ways this relates because it's about emotional boundaries. I'm still working on this myself, but being able to separate out our actions and reactions to others from their actions and reactions is a healthy boundary and goes a long way to feeling balanced about emotions.
Another example is one I discovered recently about my feelings for my FIL. I am very angry with him about certain behaviors I have. I found I was intensely angry, and in thinking about it, I realized that some of that anger really is about my own father and stuff from the past. That part of the anger is my responsibility to manage separate from my anger towards my FIL. Being able to start separating that out has helped me figure out what my real reaction to my FIL's behavior versus what has been heightened by stuff from within myself. It's helped me feel more balanced in my feelings towards him. And it's helped me feel more in control of those feelings. So in figuring out what's mine and what's his and what's current and what's past, I've been able to "re-set" the emotional boundary to a more balanced and realistic place.
I'm just babbling now. But I'm really big on (probably because I still need to work on it) taking responsibility and "owning" your own feelings versus placing the origin of them on someone else. When I center the origin of my feelings on oters actions, that leaves me feeling more helpless about my emotions and like I'm twisting in the wind about how others may or do react. I don't like that feeling.
As far as asking for hugs...you're right in that you can ask and be answered. But physical contact is a more personal intimacy than what the usual custom is in many cultures. I think that the usual social norm in my life is that a hug or other physical show of affection comes with a certain stage of a relationship development beyond the intial stages. Of course, the internet makes forming and developing relationships a bit different, in that you often can become close to someone without ever meeting them in person. But it can also foster a false sense of closeness (or distance, I suppose), since the in-person and non-verbal aspect of someone is not present. I guess I'm saying that there needs to be a mutual level of development of the social relationship, ideally, for the asking and answering to feel comfortable and appropriate for both. And your right to set your own boundaries ends where another's begins, in my opinion. Yours can only get as close as the other person's boundaries allows. Certainly you can try to encroach, but if you think of that in a physical sense, it could feel quite threatening, uncomfortable, intrusive, etc. to the other person. Sort of like if you keep mowing your grass more and more into the other person's yard. They may be fine with a few inches, but if it gets to a foot or more, or right up to their doorstep, I think they might not be so fine.
I don't have a magic formula for how to identify when a relationship has moved beyond a social acquaintance phase. I suppose someone's figured out actual "markers" for this in some study, but usually it's more of just knowing. I've been wrong before, and I've felt awkward about it afterwards.
It sure is complicated. I agree. I guess I am writing all this in order to encourage you to think more about where your boundaries and Dr. Bob's boundaries are and how you best can manage them. How far into his yard do you think is okay to mow, metaphorically? What are the potential consequences of mowing further than is the "norm"?
gg
Posted by LegWarmers on April 5, 2006, at 17:36:59
In reply to Re: It should be ok to ask to hug, posted by gardenergirl on April 5, 2006, at 13:56:23
I prefer a good massage to a hug : )
Just thought Id tell y'all!! Does that make me emotionally distant?
you know.. I agree hugs are very intimate. And i have been asked for a hug, I found it starnge to be asked, Can i have a hug (to me)? Of course i gave it. But some people love to hug so I suppose it gets balanced out. it is a thing I do with friends. i guess hugs seem to happen for me when appropriate... im now not sure why I just wrote all this but Ill send it out anyway. : D oh i think my point was, that massages are better then hugs and IMO hugs are better when they just happen and are not thought about first. And that really is true for a lot of things according to my theory on life. Which ill admit is probably weird.
Posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 18:08:40
In reply to It should be ok to ask to hug, posted by Deneb on April 5, 2006, at 13:24:29
> I expect Dr. Bob to tell me if he doesn't want to be hugged. That's it, I'm going to ask and he's going to tell me. That's the best way to handle things. I won't be upset if he doesn't want to hug me.
Sure... Because you already know he is going to say no, eh?
DBT... DBT... Tryin' to remember...
There was a section on skills training on interpersonal effectiveness.
Part of it was about weighing things... And deciding whether to ask for something or not.
And there social appropriateness does come into it rather...
But yeah I reckon it is okay to ask.
Though in this case I would say why bother.
Because you know the answer is going to be 'no'.Hrm.
Maybe the best way to grasp the solidity of a rock...
Is to poke at it every now and then...Heh heh.
Not that I think you are poking, really...
But if the point was to tell Bob you wanted to give him a hug...
The point has been made...
Posted by LegWarmers on April 5, 2006, at 18:12:43
In reply to Re: It should be ok to ask to hug » Deneb, posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 18:08:40
>
> But if the point was to tell Bob you wanted to give him a hug...
>
> The point has been made...thats a really good point ; )
Posted by Deneb on April 5, 2006, at 18:57:50
In reply to Re: It should be ok to ask to hug » Deneb, posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 18:08:40
> Maybe the best way to grasp the solidity of a rock...
> Is to poke at it every now and then...LOL, I agree.
>
> Heh heh.
>
> Not that I think you are poking, really...No, I think I'm poking...
Hehehe
>
> But if the point was to tell Bob you wanted to give him a hug...
>
> The point has been made...That's true, but I still don't know whether he's a rock in real life...
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on April 5, 2006, at 19:03:23
In reply to Like a rock » special_k, posted by Deneb on April 5, 2006, at 18:57:50
Do I love Dr. Bob more or less after he ignores my tantrums?
Deneb*
Posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 19:33:20
In reply to Like a rock » special_k, posted by Deneb on April 5, 2006, at 18:57:50
IMO.
> That's true, but I still don't know whether he's a rock in real life...
nobody is.
but what is the point?
if you poke hard enough
you might see him shake
and then what?
you will feel hurt, disappointed, let down, and full of rage.you don't want to see human frailty
you want him to be a rock
that is why it is an ideal
an idea that you have fallen for
because nobody can sustain that irl
nobody can...but people are more or less like rocks
more or less stable(go visit other message boards if you don't get what i'm saying there)
but nobody could live up to your ideal.
that is why it is important to remember that it is the ideal
that it is the stabilityto remember that he is just a human being
more stable / contained than most
but not perfect
not a perfect rock
rocks don't bleed
i think dr bob can bleedso IMO appreciate what he has done
and show the appreciation by being respectful
respect.i know it is hard...
i know you are just playing...
messing around...
and probly i'm overreacting...
and there isn't any harm.but you will have noticed it is a triggering subject for some...
and i guess it is about how when you got hammie you said you used to poke at him and try and make him do things...
then you got attached to him and didn't do that to him anymore 'cause you didn't want to hurt him.
and sometimes i wonder if you try and poke at bob and make him do things...
and i guess part of an appropriate way of showing someone that you care about them and appreciate them is to...
respect their boundaries.
and remember that they are only human.
as are you.
and me.
and so on.
have to go to work now
(((((((((((deneb))))))))))PS
sometimes i get scared that if someone finds the place to poke... the whole thing will shatter. and i get scared... something does that... can't remember what it's called... larry would probably know...
Posted by Phillipa on April 5, 2006, at 19:52:20
In reply to It should be ok to ask to hug, posted by Deneb on April 5, 2006, at 13:24:29
Hugging is a wonderful thing to do to make a person feel special and good. At AA meetings and other meetings people often greet with a hug. In some countries it is customary for even men to kiss each other on the cheek. Boundaries are necessay and Deneb is right to ask first. But a child hugs a teddy bear to feel safe. I think hugging makes people feel loved and safe in a non sexual way. That is how I greet people I learned it working in psych. They taught me about boundaries and about asking someone first if it was okay to touch them or how far away from to stand to respect their boundaries. Love Phillipa
Posted by Deneb on April 5, 2006, at 20:32:59
In reply to careful deneb..., posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 19:33:20
> if you poke hard enough
> you might see him shake
> and then what?
> you will feel hurt, disappointed, let down, and full of rage.You mean I could make Bob angry? I think I would be upset if Bob got angry at me.
> to remember that he is just a human being
> more stable / contained than most
> but not perfect
> not a perfect rock
> rocks don't bleed
> i think dr bob can bleedI know, but I'm not sure that I really *know* it, if you know what I mean.
> so IMO appreciate what he has done
> and show the appreciation by being respectfulI don't think it's disrespectful to *ask* to hug. I would think it disrespectful to not ask.
> i know you are just playing...
> messing around...
> and probly i'm overreacting...
> and there isn't any harm.I don't think there will be any harm in asking... I'll even add in about how I understand if he doesn't want to hug.
> but you will have noticed it is a triggering subject for some...
Yeah, I don't really understand it.
> and i guess it is about how when you got hammie you said you used to poke at him and try and make him do things...
Wow, I can't believe you actually remembered that.
> then you got attached to him and didn't do that to him anymore 'cause you didn't want to hurt him.
I learned I shouldn't and can't force him to do things.
> and sometimes i wonder if you try and poke at bob and make him do things...
I can try, but I'm not sure I can make him do things.
> and i guess part of an appropriate way of showing someone that you care about them and appreciate them is to...
>
> respect their boundaries.I guess what you're saying is that if I really do love Dr. Bob, I would respect that he doesn't want a gift or maybe a hug.
Deneb
Posted by verne on April 5, 2006, at 22:24:35
In reply to Re: careful deneb... » special_k, posted by Deneb on April 5, 2006, at 20:32:59
When I feel huggable I like I to wear a t-shirt thats says "Huggable" or "Hug Me" in neon flashing letters.
When I don't feel like hugging anybody I wear something uninviting, maybe spiky. Or I could just wear my farmer's overalls that I bought two sizes too big and fits me like a tent - to hug me, someone would first have to find me.
Another sure fire way to stop hugs before they can happen is to attach a hoola hoop around your midsection. This gives people the dual message: "I'm Fun" but "Keep Your Distance".
Perhaps, you ought to make the babble get-together a costume party. I'd go but I need a bigger tent.
Verne
Posted by LegWarmers on April 5, 2006, at 22:32:31
In reply to Hugs, posted by verne on April 5, 2006, at 22:24:35
> When I don't feel like hugging anybody I wear something uninviting, maybe spiky.Thats great!
>
> Another sure fire way to stop hugs before they can happen is to attach a hoola hoop around your midsection. This gives people the dual message: "I'm Fun" but "Keep Your Distance".My fav!!!
I love your posts, you always make me laugh
Posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 22:38:21
In reply to Re: careful deneb... » special_k, posted by Deneb on April 5, 2006, at 20:32:59
> > if you poke hard enough
> > you might see him shake
> > and then what?
> > you will feel hurt, disappointed, let down, and full of rage.> You mean I could make Bob angry? I think I would be upset if Bob got angry at me.
That wasn't quite what I meant. Lets take a time when you get blocked. In your better moments you understand why you were blocked. But when you are blocked (and hurting about that) sometimes you send lots of emails about how much it hurts to be blocked and begging to be unblocked. And so you think you want to be unblocked (and yeah, you probably do). But then if you were unblocked for having sent those emails then you would probably (in the long term) not have so much respect / love for him. Because it is hard to respect someone who is swayed too much from that kind of pressure. (Not ruling out that maybe Bob goes to the other extreme sometimes). Not sure how much sense I'm making.
My thought was more that if you see him as a rock and poke and realise that he isn't the rock you thought he was then you will feel really let down and hurt and it is you who will likely feel angry.
Some people talk about it as how the trouble with idealisation is that it can too easily swing to disillusionment and devaluation if you perceive that the idealised object (bob) hasn't lived up to your expectations... Not sure how helpful that is...
> I know, but I'm not sure that I really *know* it, if you know what I mean.sure i know what you mean. i think i have trouble too sometimes.
> I don't think it's disrespectful to *ask* to hug. I would think it disrespectful to not ask.i agree with you. i don't think it is disrespectful to ask for a hug.
but i do think that you know the answer is going to be 'no'.
and if you saw him going around hugging babblers all the time you would probably lose some respect for him...
(i know you aren't thinking he should go around hugging babblers all the time... but consistency etc)
> > but you will have noticed it is a triggering subject for some...
> Yeah, I don't really understand it.i think it can go back to abuse stuff for a lot of people. people who have had their boundaries violated in the past can find the idea of pushing boundaries to be triggering for them...
> > and i guess it is about how when you got hammie you said you used to poke at him and try and make him do things...
> Wow, I can't believe you actually remembered that.:-)
sure i do.
> > then you got attached to him and didn't do that to him anymore 'cause you didn't want to hurt him.
> I learned I shouldn't and can't force him to do things.yeah. and maybe you figured that it wasn't so nice to poke at him either?
> > and sometimes i wonder if you try and poke at bob and make him do things...
> I can try, but I'm not sure I can make him do things.yeah. he does seem to have fairly firm boundaries...
> I guess what you're saying is that if I really do love Dr. Bob, I would respect that he doesn't want a gift or maybe a hug.yeah. i'm saying that if you really do love or care about someone (hammie, or dr bob, or me, or racer, or anyone really)...
then try not to poke em cause it can hurt.but yeah... i've been known to poke.
i agree there is no harm in asking...
but i guess i'd wonder why you would ask when (i think you understand?) why the answer is probably going to be 'no'.
and i guess i think that if you understood why the answer would probably be 'no' then you wouldn't ask.
but really... that's probably my sh*t...
yeah no harm in asking...
though you might find IRL that you don't want to ask after all (online disinhibition effect and all);-)
Posted by Racer on April 6, 2006, at 0:09:07
In reply to Re: Boundaries -- both personal and professional, posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 2:40:15
>
> i used to have a friend who used to tickle me suddenly.
>
> it hurt kinda and i didn't like it too much but i guess 'cause i was laughing...
>
> but i was always alert around her and never could relax...
>
> never could let my guard down.
>
Alas, I am apparently more of a space cadet than you are, because I couldn't manage to keep my guard UP...I was scribing at a dressage show, (which means writing down all the judges comments as someone rode a test) for a judge I really liked, but I'd be watching each horse on the way into the arena, just off in "what a cutie" land, and so when she'd blow her whistle to signal it was OK to start the test, I'd be startled. Now, I have a BIG startle reflex, as you might guess, so I'd jump a bit every time. And then relax -- just in time for her to poke me in the ribs... After a couple of rides, I could tell she was waiting for me to get distracted by the horse before blowing the whistle, too.
Fortunately, though, I really liked her. Just adored her, in fact -- my absolute favorite of all the judges I ever scribed for...
Ah, mem'ries...
Posted by Dinah on April 6, 2006, at 7:49:50
In reply to careful deneb..., posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 19:33:20
> so IMO appreciate what he has done
> and show the appreciation by being respectful
> respect.It's a hot button issue for me, not because of abuse but because of systematic ignoring of the boundaries growing up. To the point where I never felt cared about as a person, but as an extension of the person who claimed to love me. I always say that any rebellion on my part was like a rebellion of a right elbow. One's right elbow isn't supposed to have needs or wants or boundaries of their own.
It's not that I think there's anything wrong in asking for a hug with someone who appears open to the idea. But when someone, overtly or in subtle graciousness, has indicated a reluctance, then IMHO sensitivity to another's feelings should guide. Not that I have always been sensitive in the stress of real life situations. But it's my goal.
I can't describe it but maybe it's like subject and object vs. I and thou.
I wish growing up that I had felt more like a thou.
Posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 10:44:40
In reply to Thank you » special_k, posted by Dinah on April 6, 2006, at 7:49:50
yeah. it is a hard one.
i don't think my mother ever appreciated me as a seperate entity. but then i don't know that she is capable of that. i don't know that she understands. imo it has brought her much pain in life.as an example...
i borrowed a fair bit (imo) of money off her to relocate. and i was grateful for that yes. especially since i know that my mother saved money when she was on welfare (so yeah auntiemel i guess that is why i get so funny about saving and how everyone can save to be a millionare because i guess that is what my mother was trying to do but we were on welfare and if you are managing to save money on welfare then imo basic needs are comprimised....)
but then... depends what you mean by basic.
i remember being dragged around town in order to get a 50c saving on an item of clothing. my mother would make a big (and very loud deal) of that 50c saving. it was a source of embarrasment and shame to me she would say in a loud voice 'that is 50c cheaper at this shop' when 'this shop' was 40 minutes walk away all the way across town. and i would have to walk it. and listen to her say such things in a loud voice (she seemed to think she was doing other shoppers a favour) to inform the shop assistant. do you think they gave a f*ck? they just wondered what the f*ck her problem was - as did i. but when i was 5, when i was 7, when i was 13 it was just a source of shame.
and especially when it was clear that quality (or some thing like a hideous pattern on the side was comprimised for that 50c saving)
any wonder i don't give a sh*t and i just buy what i like (even though you can get the same thing for $50 cheaper if you are prepared to cross the road just abouts now????)
and so i have swung to the other extreme. which is just as bad in its own way.... but isn't it understandable given that history?
any way...
that is my shame my pain my problem...
back to my mother...
i borrowed money off her to relocate, and i knew how she (we) sacrificed in order to come by that money. in fact... that makes it worse in a way. the knowledge that i got the f*ck away from that crazyness and yet it has continued for her. she is oh so proud of getting this or that for 50c whereas for me it would be a source of shame that it is so very important to her... that a 50c or 20c saving is so very important to her... and you know what she said to me as she wrote me out travellers cheques??? 'i saved when you were a kid so i would be able to give you money for something like this'. and she did give me money to relocate. and it was actually very reasonable (nicer than as a matter of fact, i didn't have to worry and that is absolutely f*cking amazing when you consider that she manages to eat for probably around 10 or 15 dollars a week).
and it broke my heart (just abouts). it really did. because 50c when i was a kid... would have meant so much to me at times... and she honestly can't comprehend that. she can't comprehend...
anyway... i was amazed at her doing that... giving me money so i didn't have to worry about relocating. and when i arrived... i sent her friend an email. why? because she doesn't have email (part of saving clearly). but her friend does, and so i promised to keep in touch via her friends email. and so as soon as i arrived i sent her an email. quite a long detailed one that i thought she would really appreciate. to show my appreciation. because i was feeling a bit bad... she doesn't do anything nice for herself.
anyway...
she takes sleeping tablets now (valium i think). and her friend phoned her and read her the email. and she listened... and promptly forgot.
she rang my father and harrased him and complained at him (according to him) about how i never emailed / contacted her.
so he pressured me to get in touch with her.
i emailed her agian and said i had emailed but hadn't heard back. she checked with her friend. she was aware i emailed her and she forgot...
AND SHE WAS STILL GOING OFF AT ME ABOUT HOW MUCH IT HURT FOR ME TO HAVE NOT CONTACTED HER. she knew that i had BUT SHE FELT THAT I HAD NOT CONTACTED HER and she was unable to reconcile those two things...
and that is my mother.
she can't do any better.
please god don't let me be like that
:-(
:-(
:-(
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