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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by All Done on May 4, 2004, at 10:50:52
In reply to today's session was awful, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 10:45:29
You are not a monster, crushed. You are a sweet, kind, loving person.
I'm sorry today went so badly.
(((((crushed)))))
Take care,
All Done
Posted by B2chica on May 4, 2004, at 11:10:28
In reply to today's session was awful, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 10:45:29
(((CrushedOut)))
i'm sorry i missed out on this conversation. I have not cut myself right on those parts, but i have dreams (day and night) about slicing up my breasts so that there's nothing left, i haven't because i talk myself through it reminding that these are MINE and only MINE and i need to take care of them, protect them. the other place i tend to cut along the "bikini line" if you know where that it. so very close 1)it bleeds real good 2)i don't have to worry about cutting into a muscle.
Evil??? NEVER!! you are in pain. you cut probably because you can't get out what needs to come out.i'm afraid i agree with Ilene on this one. i have heard of many T's not being able to cope with this...that is their problem either they can help you or they can't. a good T will tell you that at that point they can no longer help you and you should switch. I finally told my T last week about the cutting, he was suprised but did not look disgusted with me (as i did). yesterday's appt was tough for me, because i did a lot of cutting this weekend and yesterday i'm just thinking at my age what the hell is wrong with me. and that i'm tired of cutting yet right now there is nothing in this world that would make me give it up.
I think i need it to survive. I think everyone who cuts is using it to get through some rough stuff.
Please, you need to be upfront with your T and say i cut, and i don't forsee me stopping, can you help me through this? if they are not or can't hopefully they will tell you and maybe refer you to someone who can.
I completely understand and would NEVER judge you or anyone who cuts.
Please take care of yourself, and i admire that you didn't hold back and you shared that with us. I think that's a big step for you and i admire that. i think you're stronger than you think.
B2c.> she seriously threatened to terminate me. she seemed really angry and wouldn't communicate with me. she said she wanted to "leave me on the hook." i'm sure this makes her sound awful but she has a strategy i'm sure. i just know i feel awful adn i have to sleep it off. i'll try to write more about it later.
>
> withhold judgment till you hear the whole story. please. i need unbiased support, but i keep making my t sound like a monster. she's not. i'm the monster.
Posted by Ilene on May 4, 2004, at 11:15:53
In reply to today's session was awful, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 10:45:29
>
> she seriously threatened to terminate me. she seemed really angry and wouldn't communicate with me. she said she wanted to "leave me on the hook." i'm sure this makes her sound awful but she has a strategy i'm sure. i just know i feel awful adn i have to sleep it off. i'll try to write more about it later.
>
> withhold judgment till you hear the whole story. please. i need unbiased support, but i keep making my t sound like a monster. she's not. i'm the monster.
I'm sorry your session went badly.*You* are not the monster. You may feel like one, but that doesn't make you one. Feelings and reality can be light-years apart. I know this from direct experience. (That knowledge does not cure the pain of my emotions, but it helps.)
Yes, you need unbiased support. From yourself, too.
I just think you and your T are not well-matched.
Posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 11:55:44
In reply to today's session was awful, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 10:45:29
i can't sleep. i feel so anxious and insecure. i know i'm not really a monster. i don't know why i said that. i'm just really messed up and difficult and she's sick of me. finally. i made her sick of me. i don't know whether or how to end this.
Posted by Dinah on May 4, 2004, at 12:34:26
In reply to Re: today's session was awful, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 11:55:44
Crushed, I'm glad you realize you aren't a monster. She doesn't have to be either. It's possible in a bad situation for no one to be a monster.
I'm sorry you're hurting. :(
I can't help wondering if your therapist and your cutting are so intertwined at the moment that you both need some external support and a detached eye. I do understand that you don't feel that you can leave her.
I find that a Risperdal is all that can calm me down when I'm really agitated. Do you have a pdoc to call for suggestions?
Posted by Dinah on May 4, 2004, at 12:43:55
In reply to Re: today's session was awful, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 11:55:44
If you feel like venting. If not, no problem, I've got Amazon browsing I can do.
Posted by lonelygirl on May 4, 2004, at 13:13:09
In reply to Re: disturbing confession ****likely trigger » crushedout, posted by Ilene on May 4, 2004, at 10:04:25
Just to play devil's advocate for a minute...
Crushedout, I wonder if your therapist thinks she is helping you by acting like your SI is a personal affront to her. Since she knows that you have such an attachment to her, perhaps she thinks that bringing her personal feelings into it will make you stop cutting to "please" her. I can imagine that this approach might work for some people. Don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying this is an effective way of treating you (clearly, it hasn't been), but perhaps her underlying motivation for acting this way is to help you.
Do you think you could ask her what she hopes to accomplish by getting angry with you and threatening termination? If she thinks her response is going to help you?
> This is a quote from a self-injury website:
> "Therapists need to examine their own motives for wanting a client to cease or stabilize his/her self-injurious behavior. Too often, care providers focus on stopping the SI as quickly as possible because they themselves are not comfortable with it -- it repulses them, makes them feel ineffective, frightens them, etc. Situations like this can easily deteriorate into a power struggle in which the therapist insists that the behavior stop and the client chooses to self-injure covertly and becomes reticent and distrustful, thus reducing the chance that a useful therapeutic alliance will be formed."
Posted by fallsfall on May 4, 2004, at 14:55:09
In reply to Re: today's session was awful, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 11:55:44
Crushed,
Please forgive my lack of tact in Open earlier - today is one of those days when a med change is giving me side effects (I feel really light headed), so I don't have as much patience as I would like.
I think I was angry that you are still hurting, and even hurting more. Sometimes in therapy you have to feel worse before you can feel better. This I know. And it is inadvisable to terminate early. But you and I have also talked about how it is possible for therapy to hurt the client rather than help. And this is the hard decision you have to make.
I think that honesty is critical to a therapeutic relationship - on both sides. The client needs to feel that they can be honest with the therapist - even about hard stuff - and that they will be safe when they are honest. The therapist also needs to be honest and open with the client.
You are not a monster. She is not a monster either. The question is whether she is helpful as a therapist for you.
Posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 15:06:54
In reply to Re: today's session was awful » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on May 4, 2004, at 14:55:09
Thanks, all, for your posts. I'm a bit too overwhelmed today to respond individually. At least not yet, anyway.I emailed my T twice today (for some reason I always email her in twos). The first one, I begged her to see me tomorrow if she had an opening, even though I think she would deny me just to punish me for the cutting or whatever it is she's mad at me about. I asked her not to do that. Then I emailed her again with Ilene's quote from the self-injury website, and asked her to hang in with me, that if I really wanted to sabotage our relationship, I wouldn't have told her that. (I think I'm telling you guys this story totally out of order -- I apologize.)
I'm afraid my emails will actually put her off and push her further away. I'm feeling pretty terrified of being abandoned right now, and usually my response to such terror just makes the abandonment more certain. I'm afraid that's what's going to happen here.
I'm at work now. Have to focus on the kids. I'll try to be in open tonight around 7:30, or maybe a little later, if anyone wants to look for me there. I'll definitely need the support.
Thanks to every one of you. Really.
Posted by pinkeye on May 4, 2004, at 15:40:13
In reply to Re: today's session was awful, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 15:06:54
Hi CrushedOut,
In reading your posts generally I feel you need much more help than you are currently getting from your therapist. You sound way too disturbed and restless in every post. I would strongly suggest that you do some real serious thinking on your part, and then prepare yourself to get some real help. Also remember that therapy is not going to change anything in you if you don't want to change yourself. Also think about what are the things that are blocking your happiness and peace and how to remove these blocks. Please sit down and gather yourself, and define for yourself what you want to be, and whether your therapist is really doing you any help in achieving that.
Concerned,
Pinkeye.
Posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 18:21:30
In reply to Re: For Crushedout, posted by pinkeye on May 4, 2004, at 15:40:13
OK, so here's what happened today. I went in and brought up the cutting immediately. She wanted to know what I was feeling the last time I did it. I couldn't remember anything about it (even though it was last night). I kept saying I was sorry but I couldn't remember, and she kept saying, "That's not good enough for me." After we went back and forth like that a few times, I said, "I wish I could perform for you but I just can't. I really wish I could." She said, "Maybe you can't because you feel like you have to perform." I think I just shrugged.
Then I said I had some guesses about why I was cutting recently. She said, "Well, that's a start." I said that first of all, it *felt* to me like a cry for help, that even though I kept saying I didn't want people to see my cuts, on some level I think I kind of hope they will. She said, "What would you want them to do?" I said I wasn't sure, but for example, I imagined my aunt finding out. "What would she do?" I don't know but she's very matter-of-fact, tough, kind of not very nurturing but I respect her. "So, what do you think she would say?" I said, "I have no idea." Then I paused. "Well, one thing comes to mind, but...." She said, "What comes to mind?" I said, "She would tell me to stop seeing you."
Then I told her that that brought me to my other "theory" about why I might be cutting: to sabotage our relationship because I felt too dependent on her. She said, "Well, you're succeeding at that." I was like, "What do you mean?" She said, "Well, it's pretty clear to me that this relationship is going to end very soon." I was astonished. I was like, "How can you say that? Why would you say that?" I told her I thought the whole point of me telling her about my theory that I was sabotaging our relationship was so we could reverse the process. She said, "Maybe that's what I'm trying to do. Maybe I'm trying to get you to prove me wrong," but almost in a sarcastic tone. I asked her, "Is it? Is that why you said that?" She just made this really weird face, an angry face, like she had something to say but wasn't going to share it with me just to spite me. I was astounded. I was so hurt. I kept telling her I didn't understand what was going on and she made that face at least one more time. I told her I didn't understand what her face meant.
She asked me how I felt and I said "Scared" and I started to cry, but then stopped myself. She asked me how I felt then and I told her I didn't know. She said she wasn't going to "let me off the hook" this time, that discomfort brought about growth and she wasn't going to make herself (or me, I guess) comfortable by giving in and telling me what was going on. That she was thought it was stupid of me to leave knowing exactly how she felt but never knowing anything about myself. She said she would see me on Thursday and then, with a nasty, vicious-looking smile, scooted me out the door. (I think the smile hurt more than anything else in the session actually. I didn't understand it.)
OK, so I came home and posted and tried to sleep. Then, just before going to work, I emailed her. Here's what I wrote:
"[Ellen], I know you're mad at me right now and you seem intent on punishing me (it's working) but please, if you have an opening tomorrow, let me know? You promised you would. We're in a vicious circle and we really need to get out of this. I hope you will help me.
"Please. I'm begging you to be straight with me. I'm trying my hardest, I swear.
"[crushedout]"Then from work, I sent her another email, which said simply:
"This is a quote from a self-injury website:
'Therapists need to examine their own motives for wanting a client to cease or stabilize his/her self-injurious behavior. Too often, care providers focus on stopping the SI as quickly as possible because they themselves are not comfortable with it -- it repulses them, makes them feel ineffective, frightens them, etc. Situations like this can easily deteriorate into a power struggle in which the therapist insists that the behavior stop and the client chooses to self-injure covertly and becomes reticent and distrustful, thus reducing the chance that a useful therapeutic alliance will be formed.'"In our case, I guess the word 'formed' should be replaced by 'preserved.'
"I'm just wondering why this is such a dealbreaker for you when you were so patient with me on the drug use, despite my not wanting to stop it for a long time. I hope you'll hang in with me on this, too. (I wouldn't tell you my sabotage theory if I wanted my 'plan' to succeed. And it's only a theory.)"
So then I heard back:
"Hi [crushedout],
"I'm willing to hang in as long as we have an agreement about what we
are doing. You're right, I was angry, but not because you cut. It's
true that I don't want you to cut, for various reasons, and I also
didn't want you to do drugs. Therapeutically, there is not much
difference between the two. We are at a different phase now, though,
and I'm asking you to take responsibility for your actions and
acknowledge your feelings."Today you gave me responsibility for making you 'perform,' then didn't,
then indirectly let me know again how I harm you. That combination
was maddening to me. I certainly do not want to harm you, and it
seems that my presence stimulates feelings that cause you to harm
yourself. If you want to work with me, I want to know why you think
it is a good idea."What I want is to help you be aware of and work with your feelings for
the purpose of being able to have a satisfying relationship with a
flawed human. I am only one example of one of those. I think you made
progress by the end of the session today, but by then I was not open to
noticing that."sorry but I need a break tomorrow. I'll look forward to seeing you on
Thursday.
"best, [Ellen]"I feel devastated. I guess mostly because she "needs a break" from me tomorrow (it's clearly not that she doesn't have the time). I'm very tempted to tell her I never want to see her again, but I don't know if I'll regret that.
I had no idea it was my "performing" comment or the thing I imagined my aunt would say to me that made her so mad. I was just being honest, honestly telling her what came to mind. I didn't do it to blame her, or to indirectly let her know she was hurting me. I have no desire to do that. I was trying to just be open about what came into my head, because that's what I thought I was supposed to do. :(
I feel like going to sleep for a very, very, very long time. I can't function. I can't even believe I was able to write this post. Thank G*d I could at least do that. I think it's a good sign.
Sorry this was so long. I guess I just needed to get it all out there.
Please help if you can.
crushedout
Posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 18:22:34
In reply to What happened today (very long), posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 18:21:30
Posted by Dinah on May 4, 2004, at 19:00:18
In reply to I'll be in Open for awhile (assuming Yahoo co-ops) (nm), posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 18:22:34
I'm there now, but it's empty.
Posted by pinkeye on May 4, 2004, at 19:18:44
In reply to What happened today (very long), posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 18:21:30
Hi Crushedout,
Can you try to see some other therapist for a few months and see if that changes things?
Maybe a male therapist? (Since I understand you get attracted to women?) Maybe you will be able to get your issues straightened out with someone you are not attracted to and hence won't probably feel very devasted by their flaws?
I honestly sincerly feel that you are not making much progress with your therapist. I think you should take a short break from her and visit somebody else. Also talk to Ellen that you would like to come back to her if you see it is needed. (Just in case you miss her too much or feel that the new therapist is worse than her).
Pinkeye.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on May 4, 2004, at 19:51:18
In reply to What happened today (very long), posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 18:21:30
I am not sure on this but she does care...she wrote back and didnt have to...MAYBE?? AND I AM NOT SURE...BUT...MAYBE you are sunconciously trying to manipulate her with the cutting.....I think it is worth thinking on at least....TRY doing as she said....the 3 things before a call to prevent a cut. I mean she dosnt want to lose you as a client but cant keep you if you arent helped at all and it sounds like she feels she may not be helping you...can you change that for you...not for her????? T's wanna help not hurt their clients...Youre sooo smart take a look back see when you started cutting and why then like a detective....ask yourself a lot of questions then share the answers with her...Hon , I care and I think this may help...also she should not show shes frustrated but IS human and my T does at times like when he askes if I saw a doc yet on an illness and I say no.
Posted by Rigby on May 4, 2004, at 22:53:26
In reply to What happened today (very long), posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 18:21:30
Hi Crushed,
I know there's a TON of details that we don't know about--that I don't know about--and I didn't read every word. I've got two general takes though--since you know I only mean to be supportive I hope you can take them even though they're kinda tough to hear:
1. You're wearing the woman down. Whether or not that's not supposed to happen I dunno--that's my impression though. She does seem on the brink of wondering if you and she are a good fit. Sadly, that's quite a different place than months before.
2. Since you never cut before and learned about it here, I think it may very well have been used as a ploy to manipulate and blame your therapist.
Your therapist is far from perfect but it seems like you almost are punishing her for not being able to be what you want her to be for you--a lover.
I guess my opinion is that either you learn big-time from what *you've* done here. Or you move on to another therapist. But there's a huge lost opportunity for growth. Again, she's not perfect but she doesn't seem so off track to me. I do feel that you blame her for a lot--and I think she's pushing--hard--for you to accept responsibility--maybe not 100% but nearly so in terms of your feelings and actions.
Sorry Crushed, them's my $.02. I hope it helps even if I sound a bit negatoidal.
Posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 23:26:24
In reply to Re: What happened today (very long), posted by Rigby on May 4, 2004, at 22:53:26
Rigby,Your post did hurt but only because I think you're right. I definitely think you're right about #2, and that's really cr*ppy of me to do that. And it's probably because she senses that that's true (I've pretty much admitted it, actually, so it didn't take any ESP on her part) that she's gotten so mad about it. Which makes sense.
I also think you're right that I'm wearing her down, and I also think I've been doing that intentionally on some level, and I've told her this, too. I guess I need to sh*t or get off the pot. Either I really want to make this work with her, or I give up, but stop trying to make her give up on me, which is what I've been doing. That's a pattern, and I've told her this. I was hoping by telling her that she would help me stop repeating it, but I guess she's as flawed as she says.
And you're also probably right that it's all coming from me being mad at her for not being my lover. @#$^&*. This is good stuff to realize but it hurts pretty badly.
I'm not going to cut anymore. Thanks, Rigby.
Posted by Penny on May 5, 2004, at 9:01:47
In reply to What happened today (very long), posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 18:21:30
Crushed,
I'm so sorry you are having to deal with all of this.
My thoughts are that Ellen is taking your SI personally, which is never the way a T should take anything in a therapeutic relationship. Whether you're cutting "because" of her or not, she should be trying to remain non-judgemental - but it doesn't sound as though she is able to do this.
Did she actually use the word "stupid"?
Her actions during the session and her email to you sounds as though she is trying to make you feel bad. And that, under no circumstances, is acceptable, Crushed. That is not helpful - it is counterproductive. You were being honest with her, and she reacted to your honesty as though it was something personal. And while it might be personal *to you*, it shouldn't be personal (in that way) *to her*.
I've discussed with my T how I imagine therapists must view their clients. I used to mentor a little boy, and I cared a great deal about him. I didn't love him, however (though one could say this was mere semantics, as I suppose 'caring' is a form of love). But I cared about his well-being and so on. Ours was a therapeutic relationship of sorts, but I was on the 'provider' end in this case. And I never in a million years would have taken something he said to me personally - what I mean is that I expected him to express anger (he was a very troubled child) and I expected to be the recipient of some of that anger, and, even if he accused me of acting a certain (negative) way toward him, I had to take a more rational and non-emotional approach. Not that I wouldn't express caring toward him, but I wouldn't allow my own feelings (my desire to be 'liked', for example, or my desire to succeed) to largely influence my reaction toward his behavior or words.
I guess what I'm saying is that therapists should do the same thing. I can't say "in all cases" b/c every situation is different. But, for all intensive purposes, a T should be able to recognize when he/she is experiencing a particular strong reaction to a client (as with Ellen saying she was not open at the end of the session to noticing you had made progress, or with saying that your letting her know that she was harming you was maddening to her), and use that TO THE CLIENT'S ADVANTAGE. However, telling you that she found it maddening or that she was not open to noticing your progress is not helpful to you. That is something that would be better discussed in her own personal therapy, or with a supervisor.
She really sounds too close to the situation, Crushed, and as though she has lost her objectivity. I can't imagine that any T could remain 100% objective and rational about all clients at all times in any case, but, again, they should be able to recognize when countertransference is occuring (which is what this sounds like) and deal with that OUTSIDE of your therapy.
I think the quote you sent her from the SI website was right on the money. I discussed SI with my T last night, and she agreed that, yes, if therapy was indeed harmful to the client, then it is the therapist's responsibility to refer that client to another therapist. It is unethical for them to not do so. But SI on the part of the client is something that should be looked at as a way of getting to the root of a deeper issue. And SI alone isn't enough to justify a therapist referring a client on.
I can't say what you should do, Crushed, just that I hope you are able to find a solution of sorts to this that won't cause more harm to you than you've already experienced.
Know that you are a wonderful person, Crushed. You deserve a therapist who will help you through your problems, not create more.
(((Crushed)))
P
Posted by crushedout on May 5, 2004, at 10:35:49
In reply to Re: What happened today (very long) » crushedout, posted by Penny on May 5, 2004, at 9:01:47
Thank you, Penny, for your thoughtful post.I think you're right that Ellen takes things a little too personally, but I think Rigby may also be right that my SI has been very much *directed* at Ellen and so it makes *sense* that she would take it personally. Perhaps she needs work on controlling the degree of her reactions, however.
I think she really might have used the word "stupid" but I don't think it was exactly directed at me. And at that point she was really fuming. I've never seen her like that.
It did feel like she was trying to make me feel bad in a way. Partly she may have been doing that out of anger, and partly she may have justified it because she wanted me to "be on the hook," which I didn't really get at the time but I think maybe I'm starting to get it. I'm realizing my role in this mess. There's a pattern here, and I'm the common denominator.
You're right that I felt punished for my honesty but I'm starting to question whether there was a layer of dishonesty under the "honesty" which is what set her off. Again, I don't think the extent of her reaction, or her lack of control of her anger, were necessarily very professional. But perhaps they were on some level understandable, and even helpful to me (in that I get to see the effect I have on people).
I don't know, Penny. I'm so very confused. I keep going back and forth on this today. But I think I need to see if I can make this work, grow from this, with her. I know I may just be in for a world of pain -- it's just so hard to know whether it's the "good" pain (the kind that leads to growth) or the "bad" pain (the kind that's just pain for the sake of pain and not really useful).
It's really hard to know sometimes.
crushedout
Posted by crushedout on May 5, 2004, at 10:42:42
In reply to Re: What happened today (very long) » crushedout, posted by Fallen4MyT on May 4, 2004, at 19:51:18
Thank you, Fallen. You really make sense to me. I've decided I'm just not going to cut anymore. It's not an option. I admit I've had urges and fantasies all night and morning since I made that decision (so the cutting is not *only* about manipulation, I don't think, although I think it started out and has primarily been about that). I'm also feeling very, very depressed and suicidal. But I'm ok -- I won't kill myself, I promise. I just think about it a lot.
This morning has been hard but I guess I'm coping as well as I can.
> I am not sure on this but she does care...she wrote back and didnt have to...MAYBE?? AND I AM NOT SURE...BUT...MAYBE you are sunconciously trying to manipulate her with the cutting.....I think it is worth thinking on at least....TRY doing as she said....the 3 things before a call to prevent a cut. I mean she dosnt want to lose you as a client but cant keep you if you arent helped at all and it sounds like she feels she may not be helping you...can you change that for you...not for her????? T's wanna help not hurt their clients...Youre sooo smart take a look back see when you started cutting and why then like a detective....ask yourself a lot of questions then share the answers with her...Hon , I care and I think this may help...also she should not show shes frustrated but IS human and my T does at times like when he askes if I saw a doc yet on an illness and I say no.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on May 5, 2004, at 13:39:40
In reply to Re: What happened today (very long) ***may trigger » Fallen4MyT, posted by crushedout on May 5, 2004, at 10:42:42
Yo Crushed well it seems and sounds easy to not cut and I sure hope I didnt come across that way but I THINK you once said way back that you started cutting over her and all so I am thinking things will only work between you two IF you use the tools shes giving you..calls after 3 other options not canceling appts to punsih/protest/manipulate and so on..If you want a new T see one on the side and see if it helps..On the suicide thoughts we all think them just do not DO it if you feel too much like wanting to..please go to ER ASAP
HUGS GALORE TO YOU
Posted by harryp on May 10, 2004, at 21:07:55
In reply to today's session was awful, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 10:45:29
I'm really sorry about these awful experiences. Being in pain does not make you a monster. Your therapist's behavior reflects her own issues, and is not your fault.
In my experience, if you have borderline-type symptoms it's best to find a therapist with psychoanalytic training. They have to go through years of (daily) analysis and supervised patient care in order to sort out their own issues so that they are able to stay professional even when their patients do something upsetting.
Posted by crushedout on December 29, 2004, at 15:44:57
In reply to Re: What happened today (very long) » crushedout, posted by Penny on May 5, 2004, at 9:01:47
I just read this amazing post she wrote me way back in May (to try to remind myself why I left T1). I miss her (Penny, that is, but T1 also, of course).There are others I miss. tinydancer, for example. Anyone else missing folks?
Posted by Annierose on December 29, 2004, at 16:11:37
In reply to Whatever happened to Penny?, posted by crushedout on December 29, 2004, at 15:44:57
When I first stumbled upon babble, I always liked reading post from Lucy Stone. She went to Europe and never posted again!
Posted by Dinah on December 29, 2004, at 18:00:53
In reply to Whatever happened to Penny?, posted by crushedout on December 29, 2004, at 15:44:57
Penny's fine, but I don't *think* she's babbling at present.
She can correct me if I'm wrong. :)
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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