Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 341578

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Re: disturbing confession ****likely trigger » crushedout

Posted by Aphrodite on May 3, 2004, at 15:45:35

In reply to disturbing confession ****likely trigger, posted by crushedout on May 3, 2004, at 11:23:15

How could anyone hate you for suffering?

Please tell your therapist -- put it in writing if you have to.

 

Re: What happened. » crushedout

Posted by Dinah on May 3, 2004, at 16:35:02

In reply to ((((Dinah)))), posted by crushedout on May 3, 2004, at 14:15:09

A Big Old Fight. :(

Nothing I won't live through. But there was something I didn't want to tell him and I told him anyway and felt sort of violated by his insistance. He got angry with me and I can't take anger and I caved. Fortunately, I'm relatively certain that he didn't understand the entire meaning of what I said. He insisted that the session run overtime and I *think* I corrected the misperception he had about what I meant.

I'll live. I'm just kind of annoyed that he was so insistent. And embarassed.

Believe me, it feels much better and less embarassing if you volunteer information.

 

Re: disturbing confession ****likely trigger » crushedout

Posted by Raindancer on May 3, 2004, at 17:19:39

In reply to disturbing confession ****likely trigger, posted by crushedout on May 3, 2004, at 11:23:15

Dear Crushed, No-one will hate you, just be sad about your pain. Do take care of yourself. Thinking of you.

Raindancer
((((Crushed))))

 

Re: disturbing confession ****likely trigger » crushedout

Posted by Ilene on May 3, 2004, at 19:55:55

In reply to disturbing confession ****likely trigger, posted by crushedout on May 3, 2004, at 11:23:15

>
> i'm afraid you guys will think i'm disgusting if i tell you this, but i cut myself in a really weird place last night. do you know what i mean? has anyone else done this?
>
> please don't hate me.

I don't hate you. I don't think it's disgusting. I think the same things as the other people who've posted--you need to take better care of yourself.

I hope you are feeling better.

 

Re: disturbing confession ****likely trigger

Posted by crushedout on May 3, 2004, at 22:33:16

In reply to Re: disturbing confession ****likely trigger » crushedout, posted by Ilene on May 3, 2004, at 19:55:55


Thank you all for your concern and for not finding me disgusting. I really kind of wished I hadn't posted that. I feel stupid. But you're all very nice.

I feel guilty also for worrying you all. I'm really fine. Just twisted and evil.

I know I should tell my T but I'm afraid she will fire me. Or just get mad. Or it'll screw stuff up somehow. Also, I have so many other things I need to talk to her about (like working through the transference, needing another session). But I see her tomorrow morning. I'll try to at least do *something* productive with the session. I know I should tell her. I'm scared.

 

Re: disturbing confession ****likely trigger » crushedout

Posted by Ilene on May 3, 2004, at 23:03:29

In reply to Re: disturbing confession ****likely trigger, posted by crushedout on May 3, 2004, at 22:33:16

>
> Thank you all for your concern and for not finding me disgusting. I really kind of wished I hadn't posted that. I feel stupid. But you're all very nice.
>

It's okay to feel stupid.


> I feel guilty also for worrying you all. I'm really fine. Just twisted and evil.
>

Twisted? I think everyone is a little twisted. But evil? Evil is when you injure other people, not yourself.


> I know I should tell my T but I'm afraid she will fire me. Or just get mad. Or it'll screw stuff up somehow. Also, I have so many other things I need to talk to her about (like working through the transference, needing another session). But I see her tomorrow morning. I'll try to at least do *something* productive with the session. I know I should tell her. I'm scared.


I don't know much about your T. Has she said she will terminate you if you continue to SI? Does she get mad at you about it?

You're right, you should tell her. It's pretty important. You told us, you can tell her. I think it's bothering you a lot and you will feel better if you tell her, even though it's scary.

Take care of yourself, and have a good session.

 

Re: disturbing confession ****likely trigger » Ilene

Posted by crushedout on May 3, 2004, at 23:24:35

In reply to Re: disturbing confession ****likely trigger » crushedout, posted by Ilene on May 3, 2004, at 23:03:29


Hi Ilene.

I like you.

Well, my T sort of threatened me with termination once I think it was partly because I cut myself. I wasn't so sure how seriously to take it. Her exact words were: "I can't work with that."

Then she's gotten mad at me plenty for cutting, yes. Sometimes I actually wonder if I cut in part because I *want* her to terminate me. But of course it would also devastate me. I've sort of told her this.

 

Re: disturbing confession ****likely trigger » crushedout

Posted by fallsfall on May 4, 2004, at 9:14:45

In reply to Re: disturbing confession ****likely trigger » Ilene, posted by crushedout on May 3, 2004, at 23:24:35

Crushed,

I didn't get to this board yesterday.

I guess the only suggestion I have is to try to concentrate on the *causes* rather than the *symptoms*. You can list the symptoms, but you could spend forever working on symptoms, and you would keep coming up with new ones. If you can address the *cause* (why do you want her so badly???) then the symptoms just go away on their own.

Clearly you are screaming that this cause is vitally important to you.

Let us know how your session goes.

 

Re: disturbing confession ****likely trigger » crushedout

Posted by Ilene on May 4, 2004, at 10:04:25

In reply to Re: disturbing confession ****likely trigger » Ilene, posted by crushedout on May 3, 2004, at 23:24:35

>
> Hi Ilene.
>
> I like you.
>

Thanks. I like you too.

> Well, my T sort of threatened me with termination once I think it was partly because I cut myself. I wasn't so sure how seriously to take it. Her exact words were: "I can't work with that."
>
> Then she's gotten mad at me plenty for cutting, yes. Sometimes I actually wonder if I cut in part because I *want* her to terminate me. But of course it would also devastate me. I've sort of told her this.

You don't want to hear this--and it's only my personal opinion, and I'm no expert--but I think you need a new therapist. If she says she can't work with SI, which is one of your difficulties, then you need to find someone who can. I realize you are deeply attached to her, but I think your desire to please her is inhibiting you, because the situation causes you to feel guilty:

You can't work on the problem of SI, because *she* can't deal with it;

You feel guilty, because you continue to SI, and you want to please her;

Now you have the secondary problem of the guilt, which you can't talk about either;

The additional stress probably triggers SI.

This is a quote from a self-injury website:
"Therapists need to examine their own motives for wanting a client to cease or stabilize his/her self-injurious behavior. Too often, care providers focus on stopping the SI as quickly as possible because they themselves are not comfortable with it -- it repulses them, makes them feel ineffective, frightens them, etc. Situations like this can easily deteriorate into a power struggle in which the therapist insists that the behavior stop and the client chooses to self-injure covertly and becomes reticent and distrustful, thus reducing the chance that a useful therapeutic alliance will be formed."

The site is called secret shame (self-injury information and support). This is the main page:
http://www.palace.net/~llama/psych/injury.html
This is the page on self-help.
http://www.palace.net/~llama/psych/fself.html

I hope this helps.

 

today's session was awful

Posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 10:45:29

In reply to Re: disturbing confession ****likely trigger » crushedout, posted by Ilene on May 4, 2004, at 10:04:25


she seriously threatened to terminate me. she seemed really angry and wouldn't communicate with me. she said she wanted to "leave me on the hook." i'm sure this makes her sound awful but she has a strategy i'm sure. i just know i feel awful adn i have to sleep it off. i'll try to write more about it later.

withhold judgment till you hear the whole story. please. i need unbiased support, but i keep making my t sound like a monster. she's not. i'm the monster.

 

Re: today's session was awful » crushedout

Posted by All Done on May 4, 2004, at 10:50:52

In reply to today's session was awful, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 10:45:29

You are not a monster, crushed. You are a sweet, kind, loving person.

I'm sorry today went so badly.

(((((crushed)))))

Take care,
All Done

 

Re: today's session was awful » crushedout

Posted by B2chica on May 4, 2004, at 11:10:28

In reply to today's session was awful, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 10:45:29

(((CrushedOut)))
i'm sorry i missed out on this conversation. I have not cut myself right on those parts, but i have dreams (day and night) about slicing up my breasts so that there's nothing left, i haven't because i talk myself through it reminding that these are MINE and only MINE and i need to take care of them, protect them. the other place i tend to cut along the "bikini line" if you know where that it. so very close 1)it bleeds real good 2)i don't have to worry about cutting into a muscle.
Evil??? NEVER!! you are in pain. you cut probably because you can't get out what needs to come out.

i'm afraid i agree with Ilene on this one. i have heard of many T's not being able to cope with this...that is their problem either they can help you or they can't. a good T will tell you that at that point they can no longer help you and you should switch. I finally told my T last week about the cutting, he was suprised but did not look disgusted with me (as i did). yesterday's appt was tough for me, because i did a lot of cutting this weekend and yesterday i'm just thinking at my age what the hell is wrong with me. and that i'm tired of cutting yet right now there is nothing in this world that would make me give it up.
I think i need it to survive. I think everyone who cuts is using it to get through some rough stuff.
Please, you need to be upfront with your T and say i cut, and i don't forsee me stopping, can you help me through this? if they are not or can't hopefully they will tell you and maybe refer you to someone who can.
I completely understand and would NEVER judge you or anyone who cuts.
Please take care of yourself, and i admire that you didn't hold back and you shared that with us. I think that's a big step for you and i admire that. i think you're stronger than you think.
B2c.

> she seriously threatened to terminate me. she seemed really angry and wouldn't communicate with me. she said she wanted to "leave me on the hook." i'm sure this makes her sound awful but she has a strategy i'm sure. i just know i feel awful adn i have to sleep it off. i'll try to write more about it later.
>
> withhold judgment till you hear the whole story. please. i need unbiased support, but i keep making my t sound like a monster. she's not. i'm the monster.

 

Re: today's session was awful » crushedout

Posted by Ilene on May 4, 2004, at 11:15:53

In reply to today's session was awful, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 10:45:29

>
> she seriously threatened to terminate me. she seemed really angry and wouldn't communicate with me. she said she wanted to "leave me on the hook." i'm sure this makes her sound awful but she has a strategy i'm sure. i just know i feel awful adn i have to sleep it off. i'll try to write more about it later.
>
> withhold judgment till you hear the whole story. please. i need unbiased support, but i keep making my t sound like a monster. she's not. i'm the monster.


I'm sorry your session went badly.

*You* are not the monster. You may feel like one, but that doesn't make you one. Feelings and reality can be light-years apart. I know this from direct experience. (That knowledge does not cure the pain of my emotions, but it helps.)

Yes, you need unbiased support. From yourself, too.

I just think you and your T are not well-matched.

 

Re: today's session was awful

Posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 11:55:44

In reply to today's session was awful, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 10:45:29


i can't sleep. i feel so anxious and insecure. i know i'm not really a monster. i don't know why i said that. i'm just really messed up and difficult and she's sick of me. finally. i made her sick of me. i don't know whether or how to end this.

 

Re: today's session was awful » crushedout

Posted by Dinah on May 4, 2004, at 12:34:26

In reply to Re: today's session was awful, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 11:55:44

Crushed, I'm glad you realize you aren't a monster. She doesn't have to be either. It's possible in a bad situation for no one to be a monster.

I'm sorry you're hurting. :(

I can't help wondering if your therapist and your cutting are so intertwined at the moment that you both need some external support and a detached eye. I do understand that you don't feel that you can leave her.

I find that a Risperdal is all that can calm me down when I'm really agitated. Do you have a pdoc to call for suggestions?

 

I'm spending my lunch in Open » crushedout

Posted by Dinah on May 4, 2004, at 12:43:55

In reply to Re: today's session was awful, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 11:55:44

If you feel like venting. If not, no problem, I've got Amazon browsing I can do.

 

Re: disturbing confession ****likely trigger

Posted by lonelygirl on May 4, 2004, at 13:13:09

In reply to Re: disturbing confession ****likely trigger » crushedout, posted by Ilene on May 4, 2004, at 10:04:25

Just to play devil's advocate for a minute...

Crushedout, I wonder if your therapist thinks she is helping you by acting like your SI is a personal affront to her. Since she knows that you have such an attachment to her, perhaps she thinks that bringing her personal feelings into it will make you stop cutting to "please" her. I can imagine that this approach might work for some people. Don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying this is an effective way of treating you (clearly, it hasn't been), but perhaps her underlying motivation for acting this way is to help you.

Do you think you could ask her what she hopes to accomplish by getting angry with you and threatening termination? If she thinks her response is going to help you?

> This is a quote from a self-injury website:
> "Therapists need to examine their own motives for wanting a client to cease or stabilize his/her self-injurious behavior. Too often, care providers focus on stopping the SI as quickly as possible because they themselves are not comfortable with it -- it repulses them, makes them feel ineffective, frightens them, etc. Situations like this can easily deteriorate into a power struggle in which the therapist insists that the behavior stop and the client chooses to self-injure covertly and becomes reticent and distrustful, thus reducing the chance that a useful therapeutic alliance will be formed."

 

Re: today's session was awful » crushedout

Posted by fallsfall on May 4, 2004, at 14:55:09

In reply to Re: today's session was awful, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 11:55:44

Crushed,

Please forgive my lack of tact in Open earlier - today is one of those days when a med change is giving me side effects (I feel really light headed), so I don't have as much patience as I would like.

I think I was angry that you are still hurting, and even hurting more. Sometimes in therapy you have to feel worse before you can feel better. This I know. And it is inadvisable to terminate early. But you and I have also talked about how it is possible for therapy to hurt the client rather than help. And this is the hard decision you have to make.

I think that honesty is critical to a therapeutic relationship - on both sides. The client needs to feel that they can be honest with the therapist - even about hard stuff - and that they will be safe when they are honest. The therapist also needs to be honest and open with the client.

You are not a monster. She is not a monster either. The question is whether she is helpful as a therapist for you.

 

Re: today's session was awful

Posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 15:06:54

In reply to Re: today's session was awful » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on May 4, 2004, at 14:55:09


Thanks, all, for your posts. I'm a bit too overwhelmed today to respond individually. At least not yet, anyway.

I emailed my T twice today (for some reason I always email her in twos). The first one, I begged her to see me tomorrow if she had an opening, even though I think she would deny me just to punish me for the cutting or whatever it is she's mad at me about. I asked her not to do that. Then I emailed her again with Ilene's quote from the self-injury website, and asked her to hang in with me, that if I really wanted to sabotage our relationship, I wouldn't have told her that. (I think I'm telling you guys this story totally out of order -- I apologize.)

I'm afraid my emails will actually put her off and push her further away. I'm feeling pretty terrified of being abandoned right now, and usually my response to such terror just makes the abandonment more certain. I'm afraid that's what's going to happen here.

I'm at work now. Have to focus on the kids. I'll try to be in open tonight around 7:30, or maybe a little later, if anyone wants to look for me there. I'll definitely need the support.

Thanks to every one of you. Really.

 

Re: For Crushedout

Posted by pinkeye on May 4, 2004, at 15:40:13

In reply to Re: today's session was awful, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 15:06:54

Hi CrushedOut,
In reading your posts generally I feel you need much more help than you are currently getting from your therapist. You sound way too disturbed and restless in every post. I would strongly suggest that you do some real serious thinking on your part, and then prepare yourself to get some real help. Also remember that therapy is not going to change anything in you if you don't want to change yourself. Also think about what are the things that are blocking your happiness and peace and how to remove these blocks. Please sit down and gather yourself, and define for yourself what you want to be, and whether your therapist is really doing you any help in achieving that.
Concerned,
Pinkeye.

 

What happened today (very long)

Posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 18:21:30

In reply to Re: For Crushedout, posted by pinkeye on May 4, 2004, at 15:40:13

OK, so here's what happened today. I went in and brought up the cutting immediately. She wanted to know what I was feeling the last time I did it. I couldn't remember anything about it (even though it was last night). I kept saying I was sorry but I couldn't remember, and she kept saying, "That's not good enough for me." After we went back and forth like that a few times, I said, "I wish I could perform for you but I just can't. I really wish I could." She said, "Maybe you can't because you feel like you have to perform." I think I just shrugged.

Then I said I had some guesses about why I was cutting recently. She said, "Well, that's a start." I said that first of all, it *felt* to me like a cry for help, that even though I kept saying I didn't want people to see my cuts, on some level I think I kind of hope they will. She said, "What would you want them to do?" I said I wasn't sure, but for example, I imagined my aunt finding out. "What would she do?" I don't know but she's very matter-of-fact, tough, kind of not very nurturing but I respect her. "So, what do you think she would say?" I said, "I have no idea." Then I paused. "Well, one thing comes to mind, but...." She said, "What comes to mind?" I said, "She would tell me to stop seeing you."

Then I told her that that brought me to my other "theory" about why I might be cutting: to sabotage our relationship because I felt too dependent on her. She said, "Well, you're succeeding at that." I was like, "What do you mean?" She said, "Well, it's pretty clear to me that this relationship is going to end very soon." I was astonished. I was like, "How can you say that? Why would you say that?" I told her I thought the whole point of me telling her about my theory that I was sabotaging our relationship was so we could reverse the process. She said, "Maybe that's what I'm trying to do. Maybe I'm trying to get you to prove me wrong," but almost in a sarcastic tone. I asked her, "Is it? Is that why you said that?" She just made this really weird face, an angry face, like she had something to say but wasn't going to share it with me just to spite me. I was astounded. I was so hurt. I kept telling her I didn't understand what was going on and she made that face at least one more time. I told her I didn't understand what her face meant.

She asked me how I felt and I said "Scared" and I started to cry, but then stopped myself. She asked me how I felt then and I told her I didn't know. She said she wasn't going to "let me off the hook" this time, that discomfort brought about growth and she wasn't going to make herself (or me, I guess) comfortable by giving in and telling me what was going on. That she was thought it was stupid of me to leave knowing exactly how she felt but never knowing anything about myself. She said she would see me on Thursday and then, with a nasty, vicious-looking smile, scooted me out the door. (I think the smile hurt more than anything else in the session actually. I didn't understand it.)

OK, so I came home and posted and tried to sleep. Then, just before going to work, I emailed her. Here's what I wrote:

"[Ellen], I know you're mad at me right now and you seem intent on punishing me (it's working) but please, if you have an opening tomorrow, let me know? You promised you would. We're in a vicious circle and we really need to get out of this. I hope you will help me.

"Please. I'm begging you to be straight with me. I'm trying my hardest, I swear.

"[crushedout]"

Then from work, I sent her another email, which said simply:

"This is a quote from a self-injury website:
'Therapists need to examine their own motives for wanting a client to cease or stabilize his/her self-injurious behavior. Too often, care providers focus on stopping the SI as quickly as possible because they themselves are not comfortable with it -- it repulses them, makes them feel ineffective, frightens them, etc. Situations like this can easily deteriorate into a power struggle in which the therapist insists that the behavior stop and the client chooses to self-injure covertly and becomes reticent and distrustful, thus reducing the chance that a useful therapeutic alliance will be formed.'

"In our case, I guess the word 'formed' should be replaced by 'preserved.'

"I'm just wondering why this is such a dealbreaker for you when you were so patient with me on the drug use, despite my not wanting to stop it for a long time. I hope you'll hang in with me on this, too. (I wouldn't tell you my sabotage theory if I wanted my 'plan' to succeed. And it's only a theory.)"

So then I heard back:

"Hi [crushedout],

"I'm willing to hang in as long as we have an agreement about what we
are doing. You're right, I was angry, but not because you cut. It's
true that I don't want you to cut, for various reasons, and I also
didn't want you to do drugs. Therapeutically, there is not much
difference between the two. We are at a different phase now, though,
and I'm asking you to take responsibility for your actions and
acknowledge your feelings.

"Today you gave me responsibility for making you 'perform,' then didn't,
then indirectly let me know again how I harm you. That combination
was maddening to me. I certainly do not want to harm you, and it
seems that my presence stimulates feelings that cause you to harm
yourself. If you want to work with me, I want to know why you think
it is a good idea.

"What I want is to help you be aware of and work with your feelings for
the purpose of being able to have a satisfying relationship with a
flawed human. I am only one example of one of those. I think you made
progress by the end of the session today, but by then I was not open to
noticing that.

"sorry but I need a break tomorrow. I'll look forward to seeing you on
Thursday.
"best, [Ellen]"

I feel devastated. I guess mostly because she "needs a break" from me tomorrow (it's clearly not that she doesn't have the time). I'm very tempted to tell her I never want to see her again, but I don't know if I'll regret that.

I had no idea it was my "performing" comment or the thing I imagined my aunt would say to me that made her so mad. I was just being honest, honestly telling her what came to mind. I didn't do it to blame her, or to indirectly let her know she was hurting me. I have no desire to do that. I was trying to just be open about what came into my head, because that's what I thought I was supposed to do. :(

I feel like going to sleep for a very, very, very long time. I can't function. I can't even believe I was able to write this post. Thank G*d I could at least do that. I think it's a good sign.

Sorry this was so long. I guess I just needed to get it all out there.

Please help if you can.

crushedout

 

I'll be in Open for awhile (assuming Yahoo co-ops) (nm)

Posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 18:22:34

In reply to What happened today (very long), posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 18:21:30

 

Re: I'll be in Open for awhile (assuming Yahoo co-ops)

Posted by Dinah on May 4, 2004, at 19:00:18

In reply to I'll be in Open for awhile (assuming Yahoo co-ops) (nm), posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 18:22:34

I'm there now, but it's empty.

 

Re: What happened today (very long)

Posted by pinkeye on May 4, 2004, at 19:18:44

In reply to What happened today (very long), posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 18:21:30

Hi Crushedout,
Can you try to see some other therapist for a few months and see if that changes things?
Maybe a male therapist? (Since I understand you get attracted to women?) Maybe you will be able to get your issues straightened out with someone you are not attracted to and hence won't probably feel very devasted by their flaws?
I honestly sincerly feel that you are not making much progress with your therapist. I think you should take a short break from her and visit somebody else. Also talk to Ellen that you would like to come back to her if you see it is needed. (Just in case you miss her too much or feel that the new therapist is worse than her).
Pinkeye.

 

Re: What happened today (very long) » crushedout

Posted by Fallen4MyT on May 4, 2004, at 19:51:18

In reply to What happened today (very long), posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 18:21:30

I am not sure on this but she does care...she wrote back and didnt have to...MAYBE?? AND I AM NOT SURE...BUT...MAYBE you are sunconciously trying to manipulate her with the cutting.....I think it is worth thinking on at least....TRY doing as she said....the 3 things before a call to prevent a cut. I mean she dosnt want to lose you as a client but cant keep you if you arent helped at all and it sounds like she feels she may not be helping you...can you change that for you...not for her????? T's wanna help not hurt their clients...Youre sooo smart take a look back see when you started cutting and why then like a detective....ask yourself a lot of questions then share the answers with her...Hon , I care and I think this may help...also she should not show shes frustrated but IS human and my T does at times like when he askes if I saw a doc yet on an illness and I say no.


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