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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Speaker on January 14, 2004, at 22:12:47
In reply to Re: sexual boundary crossing » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 21:56:29
Good for you!!!!!!! You asked and he answered...wow, I think thats great. Is your T a psychologist or MSW or counselor...all of these have different boundries. I find it interesting that there are as many different opinions as there are people answering. I'm like you...when I ask I think they should be honest and answer. This idea of them being a blank slate is a bunch of crap. If I don't have a relationship of some kind why would I talk at all? Just because they have a degree of some kind means nothing to me...its all about who they are. I would have a hard time with someone 29 since he could be my son (almost) but I think his openness would be drawing to me. I hope he doesn't change just because some people have the opinion its the best for all people.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 22:25:04
In reply to Re: sexual boundary crossing, posted by Speaker on January 14, 2004, at 22:12:47
He's a psychologist, and a cute one at that. That's the only reason he made the "cute" comment. Because I tell him he's cute. And he is! But, I assure you I'm only attracted to him in the way that any lady my age would be :)
Posted by All Done on January 14, 2004, at 22:42:16
In reply to Re: sexual boundary crossing » Joslynn, posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 20:50:14
>Someone else....Help me defend my shrink..Please!!!!!
Okay, Karen, I'll jump in. Perhaps I won't have the most popular view of what your therapist said to you (which is unusual for me since I generally stick with the mainstream), but I'll give it a shot. Whoever responds, be gentle with me if you don't agree.
I think what your therapist said was perfectly fine. I always keep in my mind that both people in the therapeutic relationship are human. For my therapist to treat me as a "cookie cutter" of a human would be very disappointing to me. I have hoped and continue to hope that he will not always follow the prescribed formulas that he perhaps read about in college. I want him to know what works best for *me*. Keep in mind, I am by no way suggesting that there isn't a guideline of boundaries that he should follow, but I believe the definitive line isn't always in the same place for each person. We are all so different, have many different issues, and respond to our therapists in a multitude of ways. Think of what it would be like if we all had the same therapist - Mr. Bean, perhaps : ). I bet you we would all have extremely different accounts of our sessions and in the end, report radical differences in our therapy experiences and outcomes. If we didn’t, I believe many of us would not consider the experience as “successful”. I know I want my therapy to be just for me and I want it to work for me. In order for that to happen, my therapist should learn and know what I need from him. IMHO, Karen, your therapist knew exactly what you needed from him and knew when you needed it, too. Good for him!
I hope my rambling makes sense. One example I have from my own therapy isn’t necessarily something I would consider pushing the “boundary line”, but I think some may view it as inappropriate, yet, I feel it helped me. Here are the details (and, gosh, I’m hoping my therapist doesn’t read this site…) My mom has some issues with her own mental health and I have some issues with how she raised me. So, here I am, 31 years after she gave birth, on antidepressants and seeing a therapist. Not that that’s a big deal to me. I’m glad I’m taking care of myself. The problem is, I feel like this could be a genetic thing and, even if it’s not, I believe her inability to take care of herself led to her not being able to take care of me very well. So, to make a long story even longer, because of this I’m very worried about how my young son will “turn out”. I was mentioning this to my therapist, yet again, and he said, in a totally joking manner, “well, what difference does it make. You’re going to [insert vulgar word here] him up anyway!” We both laughed and I felt a bunch of different things which included, 1. I’m worrying way too much, 2. My therapist understands my sense of humor, 3. My therapist “gets” me, and 4. I’m a good mom and I’m *not* going to screw my kid up. IMO, all good things to feel. Could/should he have said this to another client? Maybe, maybe not. Would another client have been offended or taken him seriously? Perhaps. But did it help *me* to bond with him? Yep. Did it help *my* therapy? Yep.
You inspire me to be open and honest with my therapist, Karen. Thanks!
All Done
Posted by DaisyM on January 14, 2004, at 23:40:46
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!! » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 19:41:40
I'm all a twitter...
Posted by Elle2021 on January 14, 2004, at 23:47:14
In reply to Re: KAREN KAY!!!!!! » Elle2021, posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 19:39:24
> But Elle, do you think he thinks about me? Now I'm curious to take this just a teenie tiny step further and ask. Is that bad? *Typing ever so carefully like it's a secret I don't want anyone else to hear....shhhhh* But, everyone else, feel free to respond as well....
Hmm, I think the answer is yes, he probably does think about you. Do I think it's wrong? I'm not sure. I mean, like he said, what goes on in your head is your business. Now, I don't know if you should go in next time and say, "Do you think about *me* while you masturbate?" I'm not sure if you would really want the honest answer. I'm also not sure if you were planning to do that. Just checking! I can never tell with you! :)
Elle
Posted by DaisyM on January 15, 2004, at 1:22:21
In reply to Are we all cookies? (long) » Karen_kay, posted by All Done on January 14, 2004, at 22:42:16
Very good message. I also have had the same worry...about screwing up my kids, especially the youngest. I told my Therapist that if they ended up in therapy at 40, I want them to talk about their DAD, not me! LOL -- He basically said what your's did -- so what if they need therapy because of you at some point? They will probably say, "my mom was too perfect and never showed vulnerability, etc."
You just can't win!
I told him I was glad he thought I was perfect. He responded by saying that he didn't say that was a good thing!
*sheesh!*
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 7:20:07
In reply to Hey, you found a BD present for me! » Karen_kay, posted by DaisyM on January 14, 2004, at 23:40:46
Happy Birthday Daisy. But, what is that birthday present you were suggesting? I'm genuinly confused. I hope you have a great day today and DON'T work! That's an order! :) Also, post if you need to hun.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 7:22:30
In reply to Re: Are we all cookies? (long) » All Done, posted by DaisyM on January 15, 2004, at 1:22:21
My therapist always says he *knows* I'm not perfect, as much as I try to appear. Isn't that a deal-breaker? I mean pointing out my flaws and all?
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 7:33:04
In reply to Are we all cookies? (long) » Karen_kay, posted by All Done on January 14, 2004, at 22:42:16
Thank you thank you thank you! :)
I agree and also think he handles me in ways that he doesn't typically handle other clients. And I hardly doubt that it is because he's "attracted" to me or for reasons similar to that, though I am quite attractive :) As everyone can tell, I have a knack for asking somewhat intruisive questions. And when he answers, my trust towards him skyrockets! And he's aware of that as well! Also, there isn't ANY danger of me sleeping with my therapist. I assure everyone here. Nor do I think there's a danger of him becoming remotely interested in entertaining that possibility, if it even is one.
I just appreciate the fact that he doesn't always ask, "Why do you want to know the answer to that questin, ect." when we've been working together and it's fairly obvious.
I do like all the mixed reviews though!
I sometimes wonder if when I have children, if I'll cause themto be in therapy. I only hope if they are that they'll have a good therapist and they don't ask their therapist the type of questions I do. I'd have to punish them, regardless of age!
Posted by Penny on January 15, 2004, at 8:30:48
In reply to Re: Are we all cookies? (long) » All Done, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 7:33:04
> I sometimes wonder if when I have children, if I'll cause themto be in therapy. I only hope if they are that they'll have a good therapist and they don't ask their therapist the type of questions I do. I'd have to punish them, regardless of age!
It's funny - I mentioned to my former T that her kids were fortunate to have a mom who was a therapist - that perhaps it would keep them from needing to go to therapy one day. Her response was that therapist's kids probably need therapy more than anyone else!
And now I'm thinking of becoming a therapist...hmmm...perhaps I shouldn't have children.
P
Posted by Speaker on January 15, 2004, at 8:32:26
In reply to Re: Are we all cookies? (long) » All Done, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 7:33:04
When I told my T I thought my kids would end up in therapy because of me. He laughed and said well I don't have a college fund for my kids I started a therapy fund...I thought it was great!
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 15, 2004, at 8:34:41
In reply to Re: sexual boundary crossing, posted by Speaker on January 14, 2004, at 22:12:47
Karen,
I had to read your post like 5 times to make sure my eyes weren't playing tricks on me. The first time I read your post, as I was reading it, I kept waiting for the "This is only a joke" tagline. But it never appeared!!!
I was completely and utterly shocked by what your Therapist said to you. You can talk about honesty all you want, but in my opinion, what he said to you was plain unprofessional and unethical. To admit to you that he masturbates to patients is outrageous. And I will go out on a limb here and definitely say that he was indeed talking about you when he said he fantasized about patients. He is a MAN. He has told you you are beautiful and his favorite patient - this leads me to logically believe that you are in his pantheon on "muses" I suppose. And while you must be flattered, this has got to strike you as a little unprofessional.
Here are his list of infractions:
Asked you what size bra you wore
Told you he fantasizes about patients
Told you he masturbated to these fantasies
Told you that YOU masturbating to his image was "consensual"KAren, if you had a daughter, and you saw this list, would you feel comfortable sending your daughter to this guy?
Please forgive me for being nosy. I just really like and respect you and want you to get the best care possible. These are all red flags. What do you think? Am I too prudish?
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 8:35:48
In reply to Re: your children needing therapy » Karen_kay, posted by Penny on January 15, 2004, at 8:30:48
I always fantasize about marrying a therapist, NOT mine (SHEESH! Gimme a break here!) I just have this fascination with shrinks! Anyway, think of the benefits! No more expensive visits. All the free therapy! I often think about pitching a tent in front of the Psychology building on my university. And I always flirt with the other therapists while I wait for mine to come get me in the waiting room. But they don't flirt back. I wonder what he's been telling them? :(
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 8:37:03
In reply to Hey, you found a BD present for me! » Karen_kay, posted by DaisyM on January 14, 2004, at 23:40:46
Daisy, I just figured it out. The copy's yours for free! I don't think I've opened it since I bought it.... I doubt it's helpful though. And just think about those Nuns.... (Are you scared yet?)
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 8:49:23
In reply to Re: sexual boundary crossing, posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 15, 2004, at 8:34:41
Just kidding dear :) (Oh, man I can feel the wrath of Dr Bob on that one...)
I can make a logical conclusion as to why he has said the things he has. The bra size comment, well (I'm laughing now) Ok, I'll give you that one. And thanks for adding that to the pile :) But, that was to make me realize that my breasts aren't tiny, as I often describe them. And it worked, as I don't go in griping every session that my breasts are tiny. And I may joke about it, but I don't think it anymore. Isn't the point of CBT to point of false thinking patterns? And isn't that what he did? Maybe in a not so subtle way, but sometimes to get through to me, HONESTLY you just can't be subtle. And it has taken him a while to learn that.
Now, granted, if he were to grab my a**, I'd seriously rethink my boyfriend situation **HAHAHA** No, I can see where the way I explain what happens and the context (??understand??) it actually happens may vary. But, in all honesty, if a situation were to arise where I felt he was honestly breaking boundaries, I wouldn't hesitate to speak up. Bending, I'll let that go. Sometimes I need things shoved in my face to have a point made.
Also, when I had my *crush* on him, he didn't encourage it. Many times, he became frustrated when I brought it up. So, he wasn't feeding it by any means. I'd just say I had him flustered. And this wasn't a typical therapy session. I don't usually go in there and ask him what he fantasizes about or what he thinks aobut my breasts or anything like that.....
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 8:59:19
In reply to Re: sexual boundary crossing, posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 15, 2004, at 8:34:41
Sorry, I forgot to answer your questions.... Ooopsie... :) My mind wanders at times. Forgive me dear..
Speaking of muses, I may ask him that next week :) Thanks for bringing it up >)
If I had a daughter who had such extreme sexual issues as I do, but obviously had no problem talking about sex in a joking manner, as I do I can honestly say that if she were my age I would support her 110% seeing a therapist like mine IF I saw the results that I see in myself. I went from having no memories of past sexual abuse to several memories in less than a year, and concrete memories. I began seeing him because of my faulty memory, and my memory has improved significantly. I would support that decision completely, and that is an honest answer, but only with the same results I have seen.
I could make the assumption he was talking about me, but I'd rather not. I don't know, last night I was rather excited, if you know what I mean :) he he... But,he didn't lead me in any type of direction suggesting that he was referring to me,honestly. And I tend to look for any type of clues towards that type of thing.
And the comment about me being one of his favorite clients, just as to do with my willingness to be on time, work during sessions, improvement, be honest, ect. It doesn't ahve anything to do with how good-looking I am, even though it should :) Honestly I never get the impression that he's hitting on me, and I don't overlook these types of gestures.
Posted by crushedout on January 15, 2004, at 9:00:15
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!! » crushedout, posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 21:38:25
Yes, that was me with the CD.The point is not whether it was a come-on (I also don't think it was). The question is whether he was within professional boundaries, which are designed to help you. I can see his reasons for doing it, but I also think he could have achieved the same goals (as Emmy said) without divulging his sexual fantasies, which is really unprofessional.
I think it gives you false hopes. And you keep saying that he wasn't thinking about you, and you don't even want to sleep with him, which is great, but then you turn around and say, "I hope he's thinking about me..." It sounds like this could screw with your mind a little. And it already has. And even if it doesn't, he took a huge risk of screwing with your mind, which is not a good idea. He knows you've had feelings toward him.
Also, why on earth did he have to say "I am cute"??? That's just weird.
I'm sorry to criticize your T, Karen. I know I get defensive of mine, too. But it really doesn't matter what I think. If I'm wrong, then just ignore me.
> think: to have as an intention
> fantasize: to indulge in reverie : create or develop imaginative and often fantastic views or ideas; or to portray in the mind.
>
> Now, I'm not big on literal meanings at all or anything like that, but he's not actually thinking about having sex with me or another client, he's merely fantasizing about it. And he never once hinted at or mentioned me. I was never given the impression that he would ever think about me, and I assure you I don't have a low self image, can't you tell by my posts :)(I rather hate it when people get all technical on me...I'm sorry to do this...Please forgive me...)
> I must say I was a bit jealous when your therapist gave you that cd (Oh, I hope I'm right here, that was you right?). I too don't mind inappropriate. I'm rather inappropriate at times. Well, come to think of it, most of the time :) It's not that I'm defending his behavior. It's just that I don't necesarily see it as inappropriate, in my eyes. He swears about as frequently as I do as well. Is that bad? Boundaries vary from therapist to therapist and I would guess from client to client and I appreciate his honesty and straightforwardness (is that one word? :) I need to start using the spell checker!) in this situation. I sincerely didn't take it as a come-on of any sort. And trust me, I take a glance as a come-on!
Posted by antigua on January 15, 2004, at 9:02:33
In reply to Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!!, posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 14:32:04
O.K. Karen, here's my take on this. You have a "youngish" therapist who is still learning how to be a therapist. I, too, believe that in the years to come he will quit answering questions like yours and revert to the old "why do you ask," "how would it make you feel if I did fantasize about my clients," etc. Inappropriate or not (and I'm not saying it is at all), I think your T was trying to connect w/you and build your trust--he seems to know what makes you tick and if he can relate to you, you will feel more comfortable opening up to him. Especially since this has to do w/sexual issues, which you admitted you do have. (me too, I'm joining the club).
Trust is at the heart of your relationship. I agree w/whoever said that what works for one of us may not work for another. I think you're brave to ask the question. I would ask anything if I thought it would advance my therapy, but that's only because I trust my therapist completely.
One more thing about therapists and kids. Sometimes when I walk in my therapist asks me if we could change seats so that I could help her w/her problems. We laugh about it, but it makes her human. I know her daughter, she's a great kid, but my T tells me that her daughter says that if her mother's clients knew what she was like in real life they would never come to her for help! I believe it. It's her job, and she's very good at it, but she certainly is not perfect in her own life. My T also says lots of kids of therapists are really messed up!
Best,
antigua
Posted by judy1 on January 15, 2004, at 9:29:36
In reply to Now, to answer your questions.. » Miss Honeychurch, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 8:59:19
thanks for clearing things up for Miss Honeychurch. to be honest I was horrified when I read your post, but then I was a victim of boundary crossing by a shrink and my reaction was based on that. so when you put things in context it helped me understand why you would continue to see your therp, apparently his style has helped you and that's what is important.
take care, judy
Posted by Elle2021 on January 15, 2004, at 10:10:54
In reply to Miss Honey's a prude! :) » Miss Honeychurch, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 8:49:23
Okay, now that I know the context in which he asked for your bra size, I don't think he did anything wrong.
First of all, if you have a sort of complex about having small breasts and you complain about it to your therapist, isn't the next most logical question for the therapist to ask, "Well, what size are they." I don't see anything wrong with that. And by the way Karen, even if they were small, there isn't anything wrong with that.
Elle
Posted by crushedout on January 15, 2004, at 10:17:24
In reply to Re: Are we all cookies? (long) » All Done, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 7:33:04
Karen, can I ask you how old you are? I know that's a silly question (I hope it doesn't offend you) -- I'm just curious. Actually, I wonder about a lot of the posters' ages on this site. I thought about starting a new thread re: age, but then I was afraid Dr. Bob would redirect me to Social, and I only want to know Psychological Babblers' ages. Am I in trouble now? Sorry, Dr. Bob! Please don't block me! Can you get blocked for this sort of thing? I hope not.
I'm 32, btw.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 15, 2004, at 11:31:35
In reply to silly question » Karen_kay, posted by crushedout on January 15, 2004, at 10:17:24
I'm 34
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 11:31:36
In reply to silly question » Karen_kay, posted by crushedout on January 15, 2004, at 10:17:24
Crushed,
I'm 24 or 25. Crap! Right now I can't remember. I wsa born in July of 79 and don't feel like doing the math at this point as I have a Math class coming up later today :) I'm really not stupid either, again it's that darn faulty memory. I have a knack of being unable to recall things about my past. Which is good to a certain exstint, but I need to get past that....So, will you please tell me how old I am? :)
Posted by crushedout on January 15, 2004, at 11:35:45
In reply to Re: silly question » crushedout, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 11:31:36
i think that would make you 24.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 11:41:44
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!!, posted by antigua on January 15, 2004, at 9:02:33
Oh! I'm SOOOO glad I have him when he's young enough to fall for those tricks! :) I just wouldn't be satisfied with the old, "Why do you want to know" bs that everyone else pulls. And I almost hope that he doesn't seek supervision on this one, as he may not be so forthcoming on my next round of assaults! And I do trust him quite a bit more knowing that he wasn't afraid to answer my questions or push me in a different direction. It's nice to be able to talk to someone I respect about sex and not feel as if it is something negative or bad. I think that pushing me in a different direction would give me the impression that the question was bad, also giving the impression that the subject was one not to be discussed. We both know that I don't have a crush on him anymore. I can be honest and say I find him attractive, but that's it. And our relationship is headed in a much more positive direction. I'm not feeling so inclined to keep him at arm's length during the session anymore. So, even out of "stupid" questions can come amazing breakthroughs!
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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