![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 69 to 93 of 99. Go back in thread:
Posted by Ilene on July 14, 2003, at 13:14:57
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Ilene, posted by fallsfall on July 14, 2003, at 12:25:39
> She took appropriate measures with everything except her email address. I found the rest because I was creative and unrelenting.
Do tell.
>
> > I'm beginning to wonder if psychotherapy is a good idea. (I've never gotten much out of it.) Seems like many people become *more* dependent rather than less.
> >
> Personally, I was dependent to begin with. But I would say, after 8 1/2 years I am not less dependent.
>
I've come to realize that constant venting doesn't do me much good. I go over the same misery again and again and again and again ....doesn't go away.
> >
> No clue! I could never be a therapist - I don't know what "normal" is...Neither do I. It's a major problem. I have a number of conditions I didn't know were abnormal for decades.
>
>
>My previous therapist was CBT, so I could see her suggesting affirmations. I learned some good skills from her. My new therapist is Psychodynamic (I don't think he'll suggest affirmations). I intellectualize everything. I'm hoping he can get below the intellectual level and that changes can take place that way.What's wrong with intellect? I used to feel defective because of it. Now I recognize my intellect is one of my greatest assets--which is why it pains me when I feel my IQ descending. Not that intelligence has given me a job or anything, but it helps me figure things out.
I used to be able to use self-taught CBT techniques, but I can't anymore. It's like the Dark Side is too strong. Besides, I am bitter about having lost most of my life to severe depression and anxiety. I'm almost 50, and I now recognized I've suffered since I was a small child. "I coulda been a contenda"
And how do you go "below the intellectual level"? Channel the limbic system and unlease your id upon the world? is this another way of blaming the victim?
On the other hand, my emotions are completely out of hand. I also feel like my body and my mind are becoming less and less engaged with each other. I can see it happening, but I haven't found a way to stop it.
I pose a conundrum to my pdoc/therapist. It's a rather strange relationship. I do the diagnosis, she does the prescribing. I should go back to school and get a degree in neuropsychophysiology, if there is such a thing. (Like it would be any more useful than my other degrees.)
She's finally convinced my to see another pdoc. I hate seeing new doctors because they are usually dismissive of my self-take. I get so anxious and defensive that I blow the whole thing.
At least the sweet and patient Dr. R. doesn't get all freaked out when I send her articles that contradict her diagnoses. I think I may have convinced her that DSM-IV is not the Bible.
Rant stoppage.
Each of us is alone in the world.
Ilene
Posted by fallsfall on July 14, 2003, at 15:19:55
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » fallsfall, posted by Ilene on July 14, 2003, at 13:14:57
> She took appropriate measures with everything except her email address. I found the rest because I was creative and unrelenting.
Do tell.Not a chance.
> No clue! I could never be a therapist - I don't know what "normal" is...
Neither do I. It's a major problem. I have a number of conditions I didn't know were abnormal for decades.
>
My new therapist was asking how often I am in contact with my family and asked if I thought that was "normal". I said that was how it was when I was a kid, so it seemed normal to me.Intellect is wonderful, but it does make us see and react to the world differently. I found, in my CBT therapy, that I was pretty good at using the skills (activity scheduling, I use the questioning technique that gets you to look deeper at the problem with my friends all the time - and myself occasionally, recognizing cognitive distortions (but not changing them), my brain is uncooperative, I know there are more). I never did changing your emotions by changing your thoughts. It always seemed like lying to me - Feeling sad. Think happy [no, I'm sad]. Maybe I'm just too stubborn. I won't believe anything just because someone said so - I have to think it through and see if _I_ think it is true.
I have no idea if my new therapist will be able to go below my intellect. I'm hoping that since he'll be dealing with some unconscious material that maybe there will be some kind of advantage. It sounds good when I read about it. This is my idea, nobody else's, so it could very well be total baloney. All I know is that I needed a change, and Psychodynamic is a pretty big change from CBT.
I suffer more from a lack of emotions (or emotions that are suppressed). I have made some progress just by being more aware of them and encouraging myself when I do figure out what is going on. Emotions are weird.
For fun I read psychology books. Not "The Feeling Good Handbook", but "A Primer of Transference-Focused Psychotherapy for the Borderline Patient". When my therapist asked what kind of books I read I said "The kind of books you would read" he didn't believe me until I gave him a title. I've decided that they make me feel optimistic because they are always talking about therapists fixing the problems. I keep looking for my problem in the books, but I haven't really found it yet. I figure if I know enough that I can work alone on the days I don't have therapy, and we'll get done much faster. My old therapist didn't want me reading the books, she thought it made me spend too much effort on therapy and not enough on life. She was probably right. But I did introduce her to DBT (and she is a congitive/behavioral therapist - it is THE treatment of choice for Borderline Personality Disorder currently, and it's based on CBT).
It is very hard to say to a doctor "I understand a lot more than you think I do, so please use the technical words, and let me participate in the decision making". First, they don't believe you. Second, it really challenges their ego. Good luck with your new pdoc.
We're alone, but I really believe that I can find people to share all of my traits with - not in one person, but maybe 10 people combined could make me feel like someone knows what the pieces are like.
When do you see your new pdoc?
Posted by Ilene on July 14, 2003, at 16:10:40
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Ilene, posted by fallsfall on July 14, 2003, at 15:19:55
> My new therapist was asking how often I am in contact with my family and asked if I thought that was "normal". I said that was how it was when I was a kid, so it seemed normal to me.
"Normal" is a Gaussian distribution, anyway.
>
> Intellect is wonderful, but it does make us see and react to the world differently.From what? Is there a way we're "supposed" to see the world?
I found, in my CBT therapy, that I was pretty good at using the skills (activity scheduling, I use the questioning technique that gets you to look deeper at the problem with my friends all the time - and myself occasionally, recognizing cognitive distortions (but not changing them), my brain is uncooperative, I know there are more).
I can do that too. It doesn't change how I feel anymore.
I never did changing your emotions by changing your thoughts. It always seemed like lying to me - Feeling sad. Think happy [no, I'm sad]. Maybe I'm just too stubborn. I won't believe anything just because someone said so - I have to think it through and see if _I_ think it is true.
I've had bad results doing the things that were supposed to help. Like exercise. I'm skeptical to the point of being a contrarian.
By now I am angry that I have to go through this.
>
> I have no idea if my new therapist will be able to go below my intellect.A sub-intellectual?
I'm hoping that since he'll be dealing with some unconscious material that maybe there will be some kind of advantage. It sounds good when I read about it. This is my idea, nobody else's, so it could very well be total baloney. All I know is that I needed a change, and Psychodynamic is a pretty big change from CBT.
>
> I suffer more from a lack of emotions (or emotions that are suppressed). I have made some progress just by being more aware of them and encouraging myself when I do figure out what is going on. Emotions are weird.Emotions are sure hard to pin down. They are either uncooperative or spitefully mute. Wish they would learn English....Asberger's?
>
> For fun I read psychology books. Not "The Feeling Good Handbook", but "A Primer of Transference-Focused Psychotherapy for the Borderline Patient".I search PubMed and troll the internet for full-text psychiatry and neuropsychopharmacology journal articles.
When my therapist asked what kind of books I read I said "The kind of books you would read" he didn't believe me until I gave him a title. I've decided that they make me feel optimistic because they are always talking about therapists fixing the problems.
There's some literature about evidence-based psychology, but I haven't gone after it. Yet. If I'm going to spend time and money on something I want an idea of how well it works.
I keep looking for my problem in the books, but I haven't really found it yet. I figure if I know enough that I can work alone on the days I don't have therapy, and we'll get done much faster. My old therapist didn't want me reading the books, she thought it made me spend too much effort on therapy and not enough on life.
You mean--you have one?
She was probably right. But I did introduce her to DBT (and she is a congitive/behavioral therapist - it is THE treatment of choice for Borderline Personality Disorder currently, and it's based on CBT).
The dialectical-whatever? Are you borderline?
>
> It is very hard to say to a doctor "I understand a lot more than you think I do, so please use the technical words, and let me participate in the decision making". First, they don't believe you. Second, it really challenges their ego. Good luck with your new pdoc.The ego thing is a real barrier. When I ask, "How do you know that?" they think I am challanging them instead of asking a question because I want to know the answer.
>
> We're alone, but I really believe that I can find people to share all of my traits with - not in one person, but maybe 10 people combined could make me feel like someone knows what the pieces are like.
>
> When do you see your new pdoc?I hope the new pdoc is just supposed to be a consult. I don't know if I will see him until September. I'm going away on Thursday.
I.
Posted by fallsfall on July 14, 2003, at 23:21:11
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » fallsfall, posted by Ilene on July 14, 2003, at 16:10:40
No, I have no life. I have only therapy.
Yes, I am Borderline, but not typical. I'm not impulsive and angry. I fear abandonment and have self issues.
So, you say you have been depressed for many, many years. What is happening now? Are you feeling well? Are you working?
I did OK until my late 30s and 6 1/2 of the last 8 1/2 years have been bad for me.
I do have compassion for the doctors. I know I'm not the easiest patient.
Posted by Ilene on July 15, 2003, at 0:19:45
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Ilene, posted by fallsfall on July 14, 2003, at 23:21:11
> No, I have no life. I have only therapy.
>
> Yes, I am Borderline, but not typical. I'm not impulsive and angry. I fear abandonment and have self issues.What's a "self" issue?
>
> So, you say you have been depressed for many, many years. What is happening now? Are you feeling well? Are you working?
>
What is happening now? I'm flying cross-country on Thursday, picking up my car, driving 450 miles to meet some complete strangers and live in their house while they go to Europe. Stressful.Part of it is vacation, part of it is getting away from the heat. My kids will be joining me. It might be fun for a while, and then I will come home in 6 weeks, and I will return to my pathetic state.
I'm worried about the driving because I get intensely anxious and then I drive badly, and then I worry about my driving, and then I get even more anxious....I'm also worried that I may have to stay in a motel by myself. It's a frightening thought.
I was less anxious before my father died. I took care of him for a couple of months before he died. Then I was stuck all by myself in a house full of pictures of dead people. One of them was only 3 when she died.
Feeling well? Sometimes I get distracted from thinking about myself, but that doesn't last long, and I start thinking again. Mostly about how horrible I feel.
I haven't worked for *years*. The thought terrifies me. I can't deal with the thought of anyone judging me. I don't work well with most people, either. I'm not very functional as far as day-to-day stuff goes. I become paralyzed by what most people consider minor difficulties.
My pdoc thinks my life has been more traumatic than most people's. I don't know if that's true or not. I don't know how much of a difference it makes anyway. I might be less anxious if Dorothy's house hadn't fallen on me, but I don't think I would be less depressed.
I feel suicidal most of the time. I just hate my life. It's not doing me any good.
> I did OK until my late 30s and 6 1/2 of the last 8 1/2 years have been bad for me.
>
> I do have compassion for the doctors. I know I'm not the easiest patient.What happened in your late 30's? Or was it just that you couldn't keep the cracks spackled?
My trendline has been down. I'm slogging through, even though I don't see the point.
I know there are other ways to experience the world. Many people would think I have a pretty nice life. There have been a few periods when ADs worked. I have a foggy recollection of feeling okay.
How I feel makes no sense. I know it makes no sense. On the other hand, demanding that things "make sense" is just as nonsensical. I
don't know if there is a "why", other than heredity.
Oh well, it's late.
I.
Posted by fallsfall on July 15, 2003, at 21:30:30
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » fallsfall, posted by Ilene on July 15, 2003, at 0:19:45
> What's a "self" issue?
A "self" issue means that you don't have a clearly defined self or a self that works well. In my case, I have redefined an important part of my self in the last 5 years. Currently I am trying to straighten out how I determine my self worth. I would determine my own basic selfworth. But I had given my therapist the "power" to negatively affect my self worth when she was angry at me (but she couldn't affect it positively). So every time I THOUGHT she was angry (which was probably a lot more than she really was), I would be sure that I was totally worthless - evil. This is not a good system. So I'm trying to fix that now.
Well, your summer sounds... exciting. I am impressed. I couldn't drive 450 miles. Do you have to drive back across the country? With how many kids? I can't concentrate very long so I fall asleep after about 45 minutes.
How did you find this? Is it a fancy house? Do they have a computer?
You were awfully nice to take care of your dad. I'm sure he appreciated having you around. That took courage.
Sounds like you don't feel too well. I'm sorry. It isn't fun to go through the days like that. Did you get *any* relief from your earlier therapy? I get from your posts that you are a bit cynical about therapy. I believe in therapy, but I've just changed therapists because I wasn't happy with my original therapist. So ask me in 6 months.
In my late 30s I had too much responsibility at work and too much responsibility at home and I crashed. I guess I had kept the bowing wall up with spackle, but eventually the bow was too much and the wall came tumbling down. It is awfully hard to get all of those little pieces back together into a wall.
Posted by Ilene on July 15, 2003, at 23:03:18
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Ilene, posted by fallsfall on July 15, 2003, at 21:30:30
> > What's a "self" issue?
>
> A "self" issue means that you don't have a clearly defined self or a self that works well. In my case, I have redefined an important part of my self in the last 5 years. Currently I am trying to straighten out how I determine my self worth.Self worth got left behind somewhere. Now it's like trying to remember natural logs--I know I did them in high school, but that's all. Just doesn't come up.
I would determine my own basic selfworth. But I had given my therapist the "power" to negatively affect my self worth when she was angry at me (but she couldn't affect it positively). So every time I THOUGHT she was angry (which was probably a lot more than she really was), I would be sure that I was totally worthless - evil. This is not a good system. So I'm trying to fix that now.
How borderline.
>
> Well, your summer sounds... exciting. I am impressed. I couldn't drive 450 miles.I don't know whether I can, either. I can hardly make it to the grocery store.
Do you have to drive back across the country?
Having the car shipped. Costs more than having myself shipped, but it weighs more than I do. (It's a really nice car. I'm moving beyond the belief that car=transportation.) I couldn't figure out a way to get someone to come with me, and I don't want to talk to myself all the way back.
With how many kids?
Two kids. Maybe just one, if son doesn't get his act together vis-a-vis summer reading homework.
I can't concentrate very long so I fall asleep after about 45 minutes.
>
I have problems concentrating. That and the anxiety could be real problems.> How did you find this?
craigslist
Is it a fancy house?
I haven't seen the house, but a friend who went over there says I'll love it. It's in a great neighborhood.
> Do they have a computer?
They are taking their laptop with them. I will be taking my husband's laptop with me, but I don't know how much I will use it.
> You were awfully nice to take care of your dad. I'm sure he appreciated having you around. That took courage.
>
Nice? Courage? It was like being in an altered state. Besides, everyone else in the family is dead.I think he appreciated having me around when he was lucid. He seemed terribly depressed much of the time, but couldn't communicate. We had "issues" I wanted to discuss but he was too out of it by the time I made that decision. The awfulness didn't hit until after the funeral and I was by myself for 2 months.
> Sounds like you don't feel too well. I'm sorry. It isn't fun to go through the days like that.
Fun? What's that?
Did you get *any* relief from your earlier therapy?
None. I have been clinically depressed most of my life and none of the therapists I went to even noticed. I've self-diagnosed most of my ailments.
I get from your posts that you are a bit cynical about therapy.
Let's just say I'm an agnostic.
Think about it like this: when you take a drug, you can read the insert or get the prescribing information online. You know how much you're going to spend and what it might do to you. It's a cost/benefit analysis. I don't have the same quality of information about therapy, and not all therapists are created equal.
There's a relatively new therapuetic approach called "evidence-based medicine". When I first read about it I wondered what medicine was based on before--astrology, maybe? There is--or was--a lot of squabbling about it. Medicine being an art as much as a science. (Should I consult Sr. Picasso about my bad knee?)
I know there is some evidence-based information on the efficacy of therapy, but I haven't read much of it. When I really delved into the medical literature about depression the picture was not "depression is a disease that can be treated". *Treated*, sure, but not very well.
So demonstrating that therapy + meds is better than either alone isn't meaningful when effectiveness means "better than placebo, but not by much".
I believe in therapy, but I've just changed therapists because I wasn't happy with my original therapist. So ask me in 6 months.
>
> In my late 30s I had too much responsibility at work and too much responsibility at home and I crashed. I guess I had kept the bowing wall up with spackle, but eventually the bow was too much and the wall came tumbling down. It is awfully hard to get all of those little pieces back together into a wall.
>
>
I think I've always been either dysthymic or depressed.I.
Posted by fallsfall on July 16, 2003, at 18:27:22
In reply to Re: Forever therapy, posted by Ilene on July 15, 2003, at 23:03:18
I hope that you and the kid(s) enjoy your adventure! Drive safely.
Posted by Morgen on July 21, 2003, at 2:01:26
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Ilene, posted by fallsfall on July 16, 2003, at 18:27:22
I realize that I am coming into this conversation (that is, "Forever Therapy") incredibly late, and I apologize if this is back-tracking to the rest of you, but it is so nice to read that others have similar attachment-related concerns. I am moving out of the state for a reason beyond my control and have only a few appointments left with my therapist. We (my therapist and I) knew this was coming, and part of me is really mad at her for not picking up on it earlier that saying goodbye to her was something I needed a lot of preparation for. There is the rational me that knows she's not psychic, and also knows that I've hidden the intensity of how I feel somewhat effectively... which has a lot to do with my fear of being inappropriate and my fear of being rejected (and perhaps those are the same thing?). Still, right now I regret therapy, and that doesn't feel good because I think the world of my therapist and generally tend to think we've done a lot of good work together.
There is precious little on the internet about "transference" that is even remotely comforting. Most of what I found was clearly written for the professional, and I think I just made myself worse by reading about myself in the third person. But I suppose its progress to admit what's going on with me.
Thanks for the recommendation someone made earlier on the book -- I intend to pick it up. I'm looking at only three or four sessions more at the very most, and if I'm going to come across information about a "diagnosis" I at least want to hear (somewhere) that its normal and natural... or at the very least, that I'm not alone.
Thanks
Posted by fallsfall on July 21, 2003, at 8:04:50
In reply to Re: Forever therapy, posted by Morgen on July 21, 2003, at 2:01:26
It sounds to me like your feelings are very natural.
How long have you been seeing her? I'm glad to hear that the two of you have done some good work together.
I completely understand that you think she should have recognized that this will be a difficult transition for you. Unfortunately, even the best therapists don't always predict the future as well as we would like, and (as you point out) sometimes we are too good at hiding what is important to us.
Currently, I am angry at my old therapist for completely missing a lot of stuff. But at the same time, before this bad period started, I know that she taught me so much that I will use for the rest of my life. I am borderline, so it is hard for me to see good and bad at the same time. This means that I sort of have to choose. So I am choosing to be glad that I know so much more than I did. Some day I know that I will need to deal with the anger, too. But that is not today. Maybe you can handle your situation better than I can!
My experience in therapy says that it is best to bring these kinds of issues up and talk about them. Most therapists are really good at talking honestly about most subjects like this. Since this topic seems to be pretty important to you, I would suggest bringing it up right away and being as open about it as you can.
What kind of "diagnosis" are you expecting? When I think of "transference" I think of seeing my therapist having attributes or motives or actions that really belong to people in my past (i.e. my mother) and not to the therapist at all. Is that how you are using the word?
You sound perfectly normal to me...
Posted by Dinah on July 21, 2003, at 9:58:02
In reply to Re: Forever therapy, posted by Morgen on July 21, 2003, at 2:01:26
As Fallsfall said, it sounds perfectly normal to me to develop a strong attachment to someone who is there for you week after week, listening as you share your deepest most intimate feelings. There's nothing wrong or pathological about that.
But if you've hidden it well, she might have been reluctant to bring it up. And the truth is that not *everyone* does get that attached to their therapist. It also may depend on her theoretical orientation. Someone who primarily practices cognitive behavior therapy, for example, doesn't pay as much attention to transference and the relationship between the therapist and the client.
I'd bring it up with her, admit to the anger, and to the gratitude for all the work you've done together. It's ok to feel both of those things. It's not even outside the realm of possibility that you feel a bit abandoned by her, even though it's you that's moving. Our deeper feelings aren't always logical. And that's ok. Especially if we talk them out.
I still don't know about transference. I think that traditionally it was feelings about the therapist that come from feelings we had for someone else in our lives. Other people define it more as any feelings for the therapist. The idea is that anything we feel for the therapist can't be "real" because the therapeutic situation isn't "real". We don't know that much about the therapist in real life, so most of what we feel for them is based on our fantasies of who they are. At least I think that's what a lot of therapists think.
But I think there's a bit of real attachment in there too. I know my therapist isn't just who he is in the therapy room. That's why I don't want to be his real life friend or anything. But isn't it possible to form a genuine attachment to the person who shows up each week? The part of the therapist that he/she presents each week? Is that really "merely" transference?
Posted by judy1 on July 21, 2003, at 11:06:53
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Morgen, posted by Dinah on July 21, 2003, at 9:58:02
Dinah-I think it's perfectly normal to form an attachment to a person who provides a warm and safe envirnment for you week after week, and I think it's very different then transference. I agree the definition of transference is as you wrote it, projecting other important people (person) attributes onto the supposedly blank palate of the therapist.
Morgen- One of the things I experienced after the end of a long relationship with my therapist was hearing his words in my head during difficult times. I consider that a successful product of therapy and one you'll probably carry with you for a very long time. I also think your feelings are totally normal, and I think you will grieve the loss of your therapist- but eventually you will realize the positives of your time together. It also helps to get another therapist soon after, one that you can develop a positive realtionship with and maybe be a little more honest about your feelings next time. I wish you all the best- judy
Posted by Morgen on July 21, 2003, at 11:27:07
In reply to Re: Forever therapy- Dinah, Morgen, posted by judy1 on July 21, 2003, at 11:06:53
Yes, I do feel abandoned, like one of you mentioned. And of course, I recognize its not rational, though there are parts of me that argue that it is. For instance, I’ve been coming to sessions now for over a year, and among our very first sessions were discussions about how it was difficult for me to open up because I knew our relationship was temporary. My very first tears in her office were roused in one of those conversations, to which, when she asked me to express my feelings, I answered in reaction, “I hate it that people aren’t in my life forever!” Four months ago when I was mad at her about something entirely different, she asked if I was pushing her away in preparation of leaving. At the point of that conversation, we actually had more time together then she realized, but I am so mad at her for not picking up on the fact that if, five months away from terminating our relationship I can’t keep from crying when we talk about it, then I need a lot of preparation for it. I know I downplayed and actively avoided the subject since then, but dammit, I needed her to push it.
I generally tend to wear my heart on my sleeve, and in my relationships with others that’s okay with me. I usually want people to know how I feel. But, even though I know she has to know because the heart-on-sleeve habit dies hard, I’ve been much less express about how important she is to me than I would be in other relationships. I think this is partly -- though only partly -- because I fear rejection of my feelings as not being real (aka transference). One of you asked me what diagnosis I was looking for and what transference meant to me. By “diagnosis,” I was referring to a situation where my feelings – which seem to me to be wholly sincere and reasonable substantively, just too intense – are dismissed as merely “transference” feelings. On the other hand, its impossible not to recognize that the number one reason I’ve avoided talking with my therapist about this upcoming termination is that it is humiliating. Its bad enough that I have to feel so strongly, its worse that I have to feel it in front of her. I can’t believe I actually signed up for a one-way relationship. As if the many other experiences with other people, where I was the only one who felt anything, weren’t enough.
(Incidentally, I looked into talking with another therapist about this for that very reason, but he had moved since I’d last seen him and wasn’t available. I guess, in a way, I’m posting here instead.)
On the other hand, though part of me dreads the word transference, part of me would love to have a natural, normal, “excuse” for feeling so intense. Then it wouldn’t be quite so embarrassing and I might be able to talk about it more.
Sorry for such a long ramble. Thanks for your support, it really is helpful.
Morgen
Posted by Morgen on July 21, 2003, at 11:33:20
In reply to Re: Forever therapy- Dinah, Morgen, posted by judy1 on July 21, 2003, at 11:06:53
> Morgen- One of the things I experienced after the end of a long relationship with my therapist was hearing his words in my head during difficult times. I consider that a successful product of therapy and one you'll probably carry with you for a very long time. I also think your feelings are totally normal, and I think you will grieve the loss of your therapist- but eventually you will realize the positives of your time together. It also helps to get another therapist soon after, one that you can develop a positive realtionship with and maybe be a little more honest about your feelings next time. I wish you all the best- judyJudy, thank you for your thoughts. I've been wondering about that. In fact, I'm a little panicked about what to do when I move, as far as getting another therapist. I don't really "need" a therapist. I have (as mine tells me) highly functional coping strategies. I just shut down emotion and get to work, and I'm successful, just unhappy. I regret leaving this therapist because I still feel I have a lot to learn from her (as well as because I'm attached). I'm a little in awe of her life perspective, and I want a piece of it, similar to what you said about having a therapist in your head.
On the other hand, I don't even think I need lifelong therapy, but if I weren't moving, I'd probably want it just to keep the relationship. I don't know if I want to put myself in that position again with another therapist.
Posted by judy1 on July 21, 2003, at 12:10:20
In reply to Re: Not Forever therapy, posted by Morgen on July 21, 2003, at 11:27:07
Morgen,
If you didn't feel all the emotions you described so well- then I think your therapy wouldn't be considered successful. Therapy is a one-way street (for emotions), the therapist is the one with power and it is normal and right to resent that. But what you have learned is that no matter how much anger you feel at being 'abandoned', you have in fact not been abandoned- you are the one moving away. It's in therapy where we practice life in a safe environment and can express all kinds of anger and still be safe. You most certainly can be successful in business but not in life, and isn't it your right to be happy in life-I think that's in the constitution:-)? I feel you should seriously consider getting another therapist (at least short term) when you move and work out these issues. Abandonment is a biggie for me also, and an issue that I've worked on for years- getting a lot better than I have been in the past.
take care, judy
Posted by Penny on July 21, 2003, at 13:03:24
In reply to Re: Not Forever therapy, posted by Morgen on July 21, 2003, at 11:27:07
I haven't posted in the past few days, but I feel a need to respond to your post.
I moved in August of last year and saw my previous therapist for the last time in February. After moving (only a couple of hours away), I was able to go back to Charlotte, where she is, a few times and to have phone sessions with her a few times before ending. In the meantime, I found a new therapist.
I had already gone through some of the separation stuff because she had a baby a little over a year ago and was out for almost 3 months. I thought I was going to die, really, and didn't know how I would ever survive without her. She tried to set me up with a substitute therapist, but I only saw the sub twice before deciding I didn't really like her - it wasn't a good fit.
Anyway, just before her maternity leave, I was having major depression and emotional issues, which were definitely made worse by the impending separation. I loved her soooo much. It was sooooo painful. More painful, I think, than almost anything I'd ever gone through. And I agree, the term transference does not in anyway do it justice. My love for her was a mother-child kind of love, though not really either. It's hard to explain, but I have a feeling you know what I mean. A unique feeling that I can't say I had ever had for anyone else. And the fact that the love was reciprocal only made it that much worse.
Anyway, it was only a few months after her return that I moved. And then, too, I thought I was going to die. Didn't know what I was going to do, but was so glad she agreed to see me occasionally until I found a new therapist. By the time we ended in February, I had started seeing a new therapist here and felt comfortable with her. It made the transition much easier. However, that last session was still very tearful and I left very very upset. No matter how much preparation went into it, it still felt like it came too soon.
My biggest concern, I think, was that I would never find another therapist I 'loved' as much as her. But that's not what happened. I 'love' my current therapist too, but in a different way. I don't think I realized how much I had grown with my first therapist until I started getting into things with my second. They have a lot of the same approaches, but enough differences to make my therapy now worthwhile (i.e. I'm not going through the same stuff in the same way).
My new therapist is a better fit for me now than my old therapist would be, I think, but my old therapist was a great fit for me when I needed her to be. They aren't really comparable, but both are wonderful people and talented therapists and BOTH CARE ABOUT ME.
Please remember that - true, your therapist doesn't have the same feelings for you that you have for her, but it doesn't mean she doesn't really and truly care about you. As I've posted on here before, I realize that we pay them to be our therapists, but I see that as a formality. I think they care for us for free, but we pay them because they have to make a living just like anyone else. Good therapists, I would imagine, invest a lot of time and emotion in their work. That's not to say that they don't have to maintain some kind of professional outlook and distance from their clients, otherwise, they'd probably go crazy! But, can't you feel the emotion? My old therapist once wanted me to call her to check in every night, just leaving her a message, because I wasn't doing well. Once when I forgot to call (or perhaps I didn't because I was testing her in a way), she called me the next day. Another time when I was resistant she said she would sleep better at night knowing that I was okay. Yes, she had her own life, her own family, and I was part of her career, but that didn't mean she wasn't passionate about her work and very caring toward her clients. At our last session, she wrote me a letter summing up our three years together and everything I had worked through. She read it to me. She really did care about me. She talked to my current therapist so she could fill her in on some of my issues, and my current therapist told her that if she ever wanted to know how I was, she could just call her.
My current therapist has given me her home phone number and her cell phone number in case I absolutely need to reach her. She's there for me. She thinks about me. Again, I know her feelings toward me aren't the same as my feelings toward her, but that doesn't mean she doesn't feel strongly or that she doesn't care. I know she does. She wouldn't do all that she does to help me if she didn't.
And then there's my psychiatrist. He also cares. He gives his patients his pager number and tells us to page 'anytime' day or night. He works with me on my payments, waiving part of his fee, because he knows I'm having financial difficulty right now. He sees me late in the evening on a Friday because I'm having a crisis and I need to be seen. He really and truly cares.
I know what you mean about feeling abandoned. I felt that too. I felt some anger toward my former therapist even though it was I who was moving. I couldn't help it. Then I felt myself thinking of all the things about her that were imperfect - and comparing her to my new therapist and wondering how I could have ever thought that I would never find someone I liked as much.
>And of course, I recognize its not rational, though there are parts of me that argue that it is. For instance, I’ve been coming to sessions now for over a year, and among our very first sessions were discussions about how it was difficult for me to open up because I knew our relationship was temporary.
Are feelings ever 'rational'???? I had the same trust issues with my former, and current, therapists due to being let down so many times. I just KNEW when my former therapist left on maternity leave she wouldn't come back - even though she said she would, barring something beyond her control. She did come back.
Another problem: I went into therapy with my current therapist with the intention of not becoming as emotionally attached to her, because when I started therapy the first time I didn't even think about it ending, and when it did it was more painful than I ever could have imagined. But, guess what? I'm very emotionally attached to my current therapist, but now I'm a bit more prepared. That's not to say that it will be any easier when it comes time to end, but at least I know now what to expect. It takes time for those wounds to heal, and I think a new (good) therapist can make that much easier.
Not to mention that I believe I am addicted to the hour I am in the room with her and I feel safe and taken care of. It is one of the only moments in my week that I get to have that feeling. So, despite the future pain of separation, I let it happen. I let myself be attached to her. And I try to not think about the end...
Be strong. You will survive this, even if it feels like you won't. And, from my perspective, it would be very beneficial for you to find a new therapist in your new hometown asap.
Penny
Posted by Morgen on July 22, 2003, at 10:52:39
In reply to Re: Not Forever therapy (very long) » Morgen, posted by Penny on July 21, 2003, at 13:03:24
Penny -- Thank you very much for your post, I've read it several times. I think you are a little more loved by your therapists than I am by mine, but I do know mine cares. That's clear. Its strange to read about the huge variation in the connections between those who post here and their therapists. I may not have my therapist's cell phone or home (actually, that I do, but only because she called me once from home and I have caller ID. She's pretty safe though -- I wouldn't intrude that way if I were standing on the ledge of a bridge with a cell phone in my hand listening to her voice message machine) but I know she would never (barring something neither of us have yet imagined) fire me. I'm a little shocked to read about the experiences of some here who have been fired for doing something "bad" or going through a difficult time. I remember worrying about this a long time ago and bringing it up with her, and she said it would be unethical for her to fire me (nor would she want to, she added).
I agree with what you say about the word transference not fitting. I've heard the perspective that we can't really love someone we don't know... but I don't know, I think its enough to love someone for how well they do their job: their high degree of professionality, the way they meet your needs and make you feel safe, the way they are accountable, the way they fail to give up on you.
On the other hand, I had a really good session yesterday and talked about a lot of important, related things, but despite that I still freaked out last night and ultimately sent out a very angry email at about 12:30. I suppose because anger was one thing I hadn't talked about. Then at 4a.m. I had a case of emailer's remorse. The whole thing was very ridiculous and I'm feeling quite stupid. But it made me re-examine "transference," because I haven't felt that much anger (maybe even mixed with a little hate) since I broke with my ex, triggering the reason I went into therapy in the first place. It feels really ugly to hate someone you love so much, and who you know doesn't deserve it (my ex deserved it, my therapist doesn't).
Posted by Dinah on July 22, 2003, at 11:17:55
In reply to Re: Not Forever therapy, posted by Morgen on July 22, 2003, at 10:52:39
Maybe you could think of the email as a creative way to make sure you address the anger in your next session. Sometimes our emotional sides take over to make sure their needs are met.
Perhaps a bit of both? Genuine attachment for the nurturing they've given us all this time. And occasional transference, as things remind us of events and people in the past. At some primitive level, losing something you love feels like abandonment, even if intellectually you know that you were the one who left. It's important to talk about that anger, even if it is irrational. And I'm sure she'll understand, especially if you explain it to her as best you can.
Don't worry too much about the email. I'm sure she's seen worse.
Posted by judy1 on July 22, 2003, at 11:54:18
In reply to Re: Not Forever therapy » Morgen, posted by judy1 on July 21, 2003, at 12:10:20
Just reading through these posts really emphasize the range of emotions we 'think' that therapists feel for us. I say we think because we can never know. As far as 'love', please save me from that because I have been loved by a therapist and am still paying the price. 'Cared for', now that's appropriate- I too have my shrink's home number, and I know he is available 24/7 for me (and I'm sure for his other patients) and if I miss an appt. he'll do everything to track me down. I also know there is a wide spectrum out there where some pdocs or therps have you call a central number and they will call you back at a time reflecting the severity of your call. I honestly feel that the good therapist does care for the welfare of their client, but love- either that's a transference issue by the client or countertransference by the therp- and unethical if acted on. Disclaimer: These are *entirely* my thoughts, taken from personal experience of seeing over a dozen therps/pdocs. take care all- judy
Posted by Dinah on July 22, 2003, at 12:14:57
In reply to Emotions of the therapist, posted by judy1 on July 22, 2003, at 11:54:18
I have to agree, to a fair extent, Judy, that what we think our therapists think of us speaks more of us than of them in many cases. I'm always apologizing to my therapist for being an annoying client. Last time, in considerable irritation, he reminded me that he had told me several times that I am not an annoying client, and asked if I didn't trust him to tell me the truth. I answered softly that perhaps the statement said more of what I thought of myself than what I thought of him.
I do think it would be strange indeed if someone who saw you once or twice a week for years and heard your most intimate thoughts didn't have some sort of personal feelings for you, good or bad. Stronger for some clients than others. But it's their responsibility to keep those feelings to themselves for the most part, so as not to harm us if the feelings are negative, and so as not to seduce with dangling more than they can deliver if the feelings are positive. It's a professional relationship and has to remain that.
Posted by Penny on July 22, 2003, at 12:25:57
In reply to Re: Emotions of the therapist » judy1, posted by Dinah on July 22, 2003, at 12:14:57
I think 'love' is definitely not what most therapists would feel toward their clients. I've never been a therapist, but I have been a mentor to some troubled kids, and I can tell you from that perspective - someone who was helping them through trying times, though I wasn't being paid for it - LOVE is definitely not a description I would use to describe how I felt. Even for the little boy I mentored for nearly two years, seeing him once or twice every week. I didn't love him, but I did care very much. I guess that's the closest I can come to understanding how my therapist might feel about me.
I was really worried when I told my old therapist that I knew where she lived what would happen. I was terrified, and my emotions got the best of me. She admitted that she was upset with me, but she reiterated that it didn't mean she didn't care and said she would "get over it." But, speaking to Dinah's point about their 'feelings' being more a reflection of us than of them, I still had it in my head that she was very angry with me, and it really sent me deep into the Pit. I apologized over and over, even when she was telling me that she was okay with me knowing. I had a feeling that she wasn't. That it changed things forever. Though I don't know how true that would be from her perspective.
But, for me, it's all about a kindness and compassion behind their eyes. When you tell them something that is painful for you and their facial expression and body language reflects what you've told them. That's what lets me know, I think, that they care.
P
Posted by morgen on July 22, 2003, at 14:24:29
In reply to Re: Emotions of the therapist, posted by Penny on July 22, 2003, at 12:25:57
> I think 'love' is definitely not what most therapists would feel toward their clients.
Interesting that my choice of words sparked such interest. Though I don't think care and love are synonymous, I definitely think of "care" as being a type of love. I can't think of anyone I care about that I could say I didn't love at all, though I can think of plenty of people I love who I sometimes find it really difficult to care for.
But then, I have a tendency to love too much and too often -- perhaps this isn't merely a semantic point.
Posted by Morgen on July 23, 2003, at 0:28:37
In reply to Re: Not Forever therapy » Morgen, posted by Dinah on July 22, 2003, at 11:17:55
I don't know if I can use my email in our next session... because I'm not sure I'm going back. At first I felt remorseful for my very angry and blameful email, and apologized when I woke up at 4a.m. feeling sick to my stomach and thinking that maybe I didn't have so much faith that she wouldn't fire me, after all. My next appointment comes at a horrible time because there is something during that time that I really need to focus on in my work. After that, she wants to go through some sort of goodbye session, and I don't want to do it.
When I apologized, I asked if she'd considered referring me. I felt like it would be easier to talk this through with someone else. Her response (to my apology) was, "Be mad at me. Your comments are legitimate" -- and otherwise indicating that I had every right to feel let down.
Well.
That certainly aleviated my distress about being upset with her. But reading her response I discovered that it was incredibly dissapointing. I was hoping there was something I didn't know... some magical way that she was going to fix this at the last minute -- that what seemed like negligence was really just part of a plan. She indicated that she had failed me before, but I wasn't aware of that and don't know what she's talking about. A part of me was trusting that she hadn't really failed me now, it just seemed like it at first blush.
I don't want to go back, I don't want to say goodbye, but I don't want to feel hatred either.
I'm not having a very good night.
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2003, at 9:29:57
In reply to Still angry... » Dinah, posted by Morgen on July 23, 2003, at 0:28:37
Awww, they all fail us from time to time. She might have just been more aware of it than you are. Do you think it's possible that feeling angry doesn't hurt as much as feeling the loss?
If it were me, and I realize that not all therapists do this, I would schedule an extra session as soon as possible devoted entirely to the anger and the feelings behind it. That would clear the way for the goodbye session without interfering with what you need to deal with in the next session.
Just my two cents.
Posted by Penny on July 23, 2003, at 10:59:20
In reply to Re: Emotions of the therapist » Penny, posted by morgen on July 22, 2003, at 14:24:29
> > I think 'love' is definitely not what most therapists would feel toward their clients.
>
> Interesting that my choice of words sparked such interest. Though I don't think care and love are synonymous, I definitely think of "care" as being a type of love. I can't think of anyone I care about that I could say I didn't love at all, though I can think of plenty of people I love who I sometimes find it really difficult to care for.
>
> But then, I have a tendency to love too much and too often -- perhaps this isn't merely a semantic point.I agree that caring is a form of loving. I guess I just think of non-romantic love as in what I feel for my family and friends, and I don't expect that my therapist feels that way toward me. I guess I see love as a stronger emotion than *just* caring about someone.
I don't know that what I have said makes much sense. My meds aren't working very well. :-( Sorry.
P
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