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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by morgan miller on October 15, 2010, at 19:17:41
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds » floatingbridge, posted by Maxime on October 15, 2010, at 18:54:23
Chronic depression and it's detrimental accumulative effects could be causing you to feel "stupid" as much as medications could be. I don't hear much people complaining about cognitive side effects with drugs like Parnate, this doesn't mean it is not affecting your cognition.
Not all anti-depressants will negatively affect your metabolism and cognition. Some may improve your cognition, especially if your depression significantly improves on them.
It's sounding like you are on a path to not taking any medications. If so, this might be a bad idea. You may not be close to where you want to be, but you sound better than you were several months ago.
What is keeping you from going to individual or group therapy or both? At some point, we simply need to face our demons, or we may never have a chance at a good life.
Posted by Maxime on October 15, 2010, at 19:44:29
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds, posted by morgan miller on October 15, 2010, at 19:17:41
>
> What is keeping you from going to individual or group therapy or both? At some point, we simply need to face our demons, or we may never have a chance at a good life.
I need and want therapy, but I can't afford it. Certainly not now. I need someone with a slidding fee scale which is not easy to find.
Posted by morgan miller on October 15, 2010, at 21:03:32
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds » morgan miller, posted by Maxime on October 15, 2010, at 19:44:29
Gotchya..Are you on disability? If so, I guess the insurance you are getting is not going to cover therapy. I think different states have differing benefits with regards to insurance. A friend of mine is on disability and just about everything is covered.
About meds, if you are able to enjoy working at all, I have to believe the medications are helping. I guess just try be careful about what medications you eliminate, at least until you think there is a better replacement out there.
Posted by floatingbridge on October 15, 2010, at 22:36:57
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds » floatingbridge, posted by Maxime on October 15, 2010, at 18:54:23
> I don't want to on meds anymore not only because my weight, but because I
am sure that I am much more stupid on them. Seriously. I mix up words and sentences up all the time and I feel like an idiot.
>I hear you. Maybe it is time for a change. I recall that you can have med sensitivities and can destabilize fairly quickly. So go slow and middle of the road. I, too, feel unhappy and at times panicky about my med pile-on.
> I won't do anything until I talk to my doctor about it. If he says no, then I
won't do it. I haven't back from him yet.
>In the meantime, can you research some options? I don't know if you have time or patience for it--to present to your doctor. Will he *brainstorm* with you?
Maybe you said and I didn't get it. You don't want to be med-free but med-lite? And what would you like your lineup to be? What do your instincts say?> Thanks for caring. *hugs*
*hugs* back :)
Posted by Maxime on October 16, 2010, at 4:19:18
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds » Maxime, posted by morgan miller on October 15, 2010, at 21:03:32
I am not on disability, I am working. And even when I was not working (the past 18 months), I wasn't on disability.
I'm in Canada so our health laws are somewhat similar from Province to Province. But Canada Health Care's system has never included the payment of psychologists because they are not medical doctors. However I can use my health card to see my psychiatrist.
Posted by 49er on October 16, 2010, at 5:13:23
In reply to Thinking of coming off meds, posted by Maxime on October 13, 2010, at 22:32:42
> A close friend of mine told me that I don't look like the person I was a year ago. I am very overweight and at the same time I look bloated(puffy face and hands. I have an eating disorder (ED NOS)and I restrict my food a lot.
>
> I can't blame the meds for everything ... but I can blame them for a lot.
>
> I'm going to slowly come off the Parnate. I will keep the Nortriptaline for a while so I don't crash and burn. Then I will slowly decrease the Nortrip. I will stay on the Trileptal to keep my mood "stable" -ha! What a joke! I will also stay on the Adderall XR.
>
> Of course I am going to ask my pdoc if it's okay to do this. Maybe he will give me tips on how to decrease the Parnate.
>
> I really hope that I am not creating a disaster. Do you think I am? I just don't want to be on all these meds. I want my old body back. I want to have all my cognitive functions working properly (of course one could argue that coming off the med will create cognitive problems)
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts on my plan of action? Maybe there is something I have not thought of yet.
>
> Thanks y'all! :)HI Maxime,
If you do decide to taper off of your meds, please do it very slowly, especially since you are multiple meds. I came of of 4 meds by mostly tapering at 10% of current dose every 3 to 6 weeks.
Tapering slowly doesn't guarantee you won't have withdrawal symptoms. But it is the difference between having some semblance of a quality of life and not having one.
Of course your mileage will vary but I think to be safe, tapering slowly is the way to go.
I would also be very careful about taking any supplements.
Withdrawal, even doing it slowly, will make your system very sensitive. One of biggest mistakes was taking too many of them.If you do decide to taper off of meds, you need to think about how you're going to handle the issues that caused you be put on meds in the first place. For example, when I start getting into what I feel is very negative self talk that isn't helpful, I simply remind myself that I don't want to go down that path.
Of course, it isn't that simple but I wanted to give you an idea of what I experienced.
By the way, even though I was considered normal weight when I on meds, I lost a few more pounds after I finished my taper. I think it gathered in my stomach and that is where it came off.
Feel free to babble mail me if you want to talk more about this. It is a big decision and not one to be entered into lightly.
One more thing - My psychiatrist, while cooperative with my taper, didn't support my getting off of meds. He didn't say anything directly but it was quite obvious.
I think what I am saying is I understand you wanting to consult him. But in the end, it has to be your decision.
If I had listened to mine, I would still be on meds and suffering from the horrific side effects that caused me to taper off of them.
Good luck.
49er
Posted by SLS on October 16, 2010, at 5:36:41
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds » floatingbridge, posted by Maxime on October 15, 2010, at 18:54:23
> > Maxime,
> >
> > My first reaction is no! Don't!
> >
> > Gaining 65 pounds would concern any of us, even those of us w/o an ED. And the acne, besides being unpleasant, can indicate hormone issues.
> >
> > What does your endo think about all
> > this? I forgot if you mentioned your age, but is perimenopause a factor at all? (I think that's fsh level?)
> >
> > This might sound catty, but this friend you mention, did she know how badly you felt a year ago? I remember you writing back then. Now you have a job you enjoy and get out daily. You have some space from home issues. What she said about eating enough food to make you fat hurt me! That seems very unsupportive at least. She could have expressed concern over your health in general and not looks.
> >
> > Maxie, maybe some change in meds is good. Really, what do I know? Meds change us eventually, time changes us, depression treated or not, behaviors, all change us. And the insult with meds is that they change on us as we age.
> >
> > Getting off meds might not give you the results you want. It's a lovely idea that works for some--. Please Maxie, don't unless you have a real solid plan with your doctor.
>
> Thanks FB for your advice. I was a mess in the fall when I wasn't on meds for 6 weeks. It was awful. But this time I would stay on the trileptal and adderall and get off my Parnate, Nortp. and clonazepam. Yes, my endo is the one who said that I was eating enough to make me fat. She said it again when I her a couple of weeks ago. I guess that is her personal style ... insult the patient. And sees much larger women than me so I don't even want to know what she says to them!
>
> I don't want to on meds anymore not only because my weight, but because I am sure that I am much more stupid on them. Seriously. I mix up words and sentences up all the time and I feel like an idiot.
>
> I won't do anything until I talk to my doctor about it. If he says no, then I won't do it. I haven't back from him yet.
>
> Thanks for caring. *hugs*I would suggest that you consider discontinuing one drug at a time, otherwise you will not know what drug(s) are contributing to the improved state that you find yourself in. Perhaps this would not be necessary if you lay down a plan that includes returning to previously effective dosages of both drugs immediately once you determine you have relapsed.
Stupid? Could be the drugs. Could be the illness progressing. Cognitive impairments due to depression tend to worsen as one ages and the illness is left untreated.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on October 16, 2010, at 5:43:36
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds, posted by morgan miller on October 15, 2010, at 19:17:41
> Chronic depression and it's detrimental accumulative effects could be causing you to feel "stupid" as much as medications could be. I don't hear much people complaining about cognitive side effects with drugs like Parnate, this doesn't mean it is not affecting your cognition.
>
> Not all anti-depressants will negatively affect your metabolism and cognition. Some may improve your cognition, especially if your depression significantly improves on them.
>
> It's sounding like you are on a path to not taking any medications. If so, this might be a bad idea. You may not be close to where you want to be, but you sound better than you were several months ago.
>
> What is keeping you from going to individual or group therapy or both? At some point, we simply need to face our demons, or we may never have a chance at a good life.I agree with Morgan. Perhaps your preoccupation with suicide is more intellectual than it is due to depressive affect. For you, it might be critical that you attend to this issue and others that may exist in your psyche through some psychotherapeutic milieu. In your case, I do not think that psychotherapy by itself will resolve major depressive disorder. Some sort of somatic treatment seems to be necessary for you. I could be wrong, of course.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on October 16, 2010, at 5:47:32
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds » morgan miller, posted by Maxime on October 15, 2010, at 19:44:29
> >
> > What is keeping you from going to individual or group therapy or both? At some point, we simply need to face our demons, or we may never have a chance at a good life.
>
>
> I need and want therapy, but I can't afford it. Certainly not now. I need someone with a slidding fee scale which is not easy to find.Might you be eligible for "charity care" at a hospital? I would go to any hospital and see if they have any clinics or programs that would provide affordable care. If not they might suggest a program in the community.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on October 16, 2010, at 5:51:25
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds » Maxime, posted by 49er on October 16, 2010, at 5:13:23
Hi 49er.
Was your depression recurrent, or was it a first-time episode?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on October 16, 2010, at 6:15:56
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds » SLS, posted by bleauberry on October 15, 2010, at 17:23:46
> > > I think the whole thing sounds reasonable to me.
> > Why?
> Why not?
I guess that about sums it up.
- Scott
Posted by 49er on October 16, 2010, at 8:15:08
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds » 49er, posted by SLS on October 16, 2010, at 5:51:25
> Hi 49er.
>
> Was your depression recurrent, or was it a first-time episode?
>
>
> - ScottIt was recurrent.
In thinking over what happened, I had undiagnosed learning disabilities that I never got any help for until I was an adult. So of course, when you're struggling with tasks that most average people would not struggle with, you're going to feel stupid if you don't know what is going on. That definitely leads to depression when you feel stupid and don't know why.
I am convinced that if someone had explained to me what was going on and showed me how to compensate for my issues, I would have avoided the psych med treadmill.
Sadly, these meds greatly worsened my LD issues over time and is one of the major reasons I decided to go off of them.
49er
Posted by 49er on October 16, 2010, at 8:16:20
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds, posted by 49er on October 16, 2010, at 8:15:08
The above message is a response to SLS. Sorry for not making that clear.
Posted by 49er on October 16, 2010, at 8:21:55
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds » Maxime, posted by SLS on October 16, 2010, at 5:36:41
>
> Stupid? Could be the drugs. Could be the illness progressing. Cognitive impairments due to depression tend to worsen as one ages and the illness is left untreated.
>
>
> - ScottScott,
I am confused by this point because Maxime is being treated and on several meds. I know causation doesn't equal correlation but it seems logical that her complaints of cognitive impairment are due to the meds.
49er
Posted by SLS on October 16, 2010, at 8:44:06
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds » SLS, posted by 49er on October 16, 2010, at 8:21:55
> >
> > Stupid? Could be the drugs. Could be the illness progressing. Cognitive impairments due to depression tend to worsen as one ages and the illness is left untreated.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Scott,
>
> I am confused by this point because Maxime is being treated and on several meds. I know causation doesn't equal correlation but it seems logical that her complaints of cognitive impairment are due to the meds.The point regarding the existence of cognitive deficits associated with major depressive disorder is fact. Whether or not Maxime falls into this category, I can't know for sure. I guess we'll find out if she decides to discontinue her medications whether or not they are responsible for any cognitive impairments.
By the way, why would it be logical that it is the medication rather than the illness producing the cognitive impairments reported by Maxime?
I am sure of nothing.
- Scott
Posted by 49er on October 16, 2010, at 9:18:11
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds » 49er, posted by SLS on October 16, 2010, at 8:44:06
> > >
> > > Stupid? Could be the drugs. Could be the illness progressing. Cognitive impairments due to depression tend to worsen as one ages and the illness is left untreated.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Scott
> >
> > Scott,
> >
> > I am confused by this point because Maxime is being treated and on several meds. I know causation doesn't equal correlation but it seems logical that her complaints of cognitive impairment are due to the meds.
>
> The point regarding the existence of cognitive deficits associated with major depressive disorder is fact. Whether or not Maxime falls into this category, I can't know for sure. I guess we'll find out if she decides to discontinue her medications whether or not they are responsible for any cognitive impairments.
>
> By the way, why would it be logical that it is the medication rather than the illness producing the cognitive impairments reported by Maxime?
>
> I am sure of nothing.
>
>
> - ScottScott,
I don't disagree that cognitive deficits can be associated with depression. But in my opinion, far too may researchers blame side effects from meds that cause cognitive impairment on the illness. They simply refuse to believe that the drugs can cause harm.
Actually, even if she discontinues her medication slowly, she won't know for quite awhile what the cognitive effects are due from. I finished my taper in June and I am still dealing with cognitive issues that are definitely not related to depression. My guess is its the insomnia that is a withdrawal issue that is causing the problems but who knows.
They have improved by the way but are definitely still an issue.
Well, when someone is on several meds and is complaining of cognitive impairments, that is a logical place to look. This isn't just a a psych issue as how many times, do we hear of senior citizens on several meds being diagnosed with dementia only to find that when they were taken off the meds, everything was fine
Posted by SLS on October 16, 2010, at 9:25:13
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds » SLS, posted by 49er on October 16, 2010, at 9:18:11
> My guess is its the insomnia that is a withdrawal issue that is causing the problems but who knows.
Good point.
- Scott
Posted by morgan miller on October 16, 2010, at 10:38:19
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds » morgan miller, posted by Maxime on October 16, 2010, at 4:19:18
>
>
> I am not on disability, I am working. And even when I was not working (the past 18 months), I wasn't on disability.
>
> I'm in Canada so our health laws are somewhat similar from Province to Province. But Canada Health Care's system has never included the payment of psychologists because they are not medical doctors. However I can use my health card to see my psychiatrist.
>That surprises me. I was under the impression that because Canada had more of a socialist health care system, it would cover just about everything. That's too bad. I wonder what it's like over in Europe.
Hang in there!
Posted by morgan miller on October 16, 2010, at 10:46:10
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds » SLS, posted by 49er on October 16, 2010, at 9:18:11
49er, were you on Lamictal at one point? What meds caused your cognitive impairment?
I may have some things for you to try, especially if you were on Lamictal. One of them being a good brand of SJW like Perika, Serofin(New Chapter), or Kira. Someone I know and I are both experiencing some cognitive improvement on SJW. I bet you've tried it already though. I will give you a list of others if you are interested.
Morgan
Posted by 49er on October 16, 2010, at 11:24:20
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds » 49er, posted by morgan miller on October 16, 2010, at 10:46:10
> 49er, were you on Lamictal at one point? What meds caused your cognitive impairment?
>
> I may have some things for you to try, especially if you were on Lamictal. One of them being a good brand of SJW like Perika, Serofin(New Chapter), or Kira. Someone I know and I are both experiencing some cognitive improvement on SJW. I bet you've tried it already though. I will give you a list of others if you are interested.
>
> MorganHi Morgan,
Thanks.
I was on Adderall, Wellbutrin, Doxepin, and Remeron. It could be the insomnia I am dealing with as a WD issue is the main culprit. Who knows?
I would be interested in your suggestions but right now, my system is too sensitive as it goes into overdrive causing insomnia. I am taking fish oil and a basic multivitamin and even that may be too much. But not taking it leaves me more miserable so I have decided to take extra vitamin C which helps.
Last night, I had a great night of sleep so hopefully, it will continue.
Thanks. Glad SJW is working for you.
Posted by Maxime on October 16, 2010, at 18:34:55
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds » Maxime, posted by Phillipa on October 14, 2010, at 23:38:10
> Mine was also recently checked then hormone doseage changed and that changes the thyroid levels according to both endo and hormone doc. So I'm thinking I need to get mine rechecked. Maxie I'd freak out literally if I gained all that weight. I honestly don't know what to say about that. And I know food with some isn't the reason. I'm sorry. Phillipa
Thank you Phillipa. I appreciate your post.
Posted by Maxime on October 16, 2010, at 18:37:44
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds » Maxime, posted by morgan miller on October 15, 2010, at 13:31:19
> Maxime, I apologize for basically saying that you are the cause of your appearance and problems and not your medications. I realize now that I should have been a little more sensitive and thoughtful in my post. I do think a few of your medications could be causing some problems and it is a good idea to take as few medications as possible, as long as the ones you are on are helping you and keeping you safe.
>
> I still stand by some of the things I said regarding long term improvement and achieving true happiness.
>
> Good luck with the changes you make!
>
> MorganThanks Morgan. Actually what I like about you is that you are straight shooter. You don't mince words. So no need to apologise.
Posted by Maxime on October 16, 2010, at 18:46:46
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds » Maxime, posted by floatingbridge on October 15, 2010, at 14:09:19
Hi FB. My endo thinks the weight gain is all from eating. I assure you, it's not. I feel so embarrassed when I see her because I feel like she is judging me.
My friend has known me for years now. She knows how bad I have been. When she said it, she was referring that something was wrong inside my body. She didn't I ate too much food to gain 65 pounds. She was concerned about my health actually both mental and physical.
I know that now isn't the best time to play around with my meds. I finally have a job and I would hate to lose it as a result of being so depressed that I couldn't do my job.
Maybe now isn't the time to try to reduce my meds. Maybe I should wait a few months and start then. My job is a contract and it ends in December. I hope it will be renewed but if it's not, I will be out of a job once again. Again, this would not be the best time to be off my meds.
Maybe I will make little changes.
Thank you for letting me bounce my thoughts off you.
Posted by Maxime on October 16, 2010, at 18:55:01
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds » SLS, posted by bleauberry on October 15, 2010, at 17:23:46
I know you don't see eye to eye on many things which is okay. I appreciate and respect *both* of your opinions. I find it helpful to hear two sides of the coin.
So please keep posting your thoughts/ideas here, but don't argue. I like the fact that you both have different views on meds etc.and I take both of your recommendations to heart. Different view points is what I like about PB.
Hugs for you both. xoxo
Maxie
Posted by Maxime on October 16, 2010, at 19:04:49
In reply to Re: Thinking of coming off meds » Maxime, posted by floatingbridge on October 15, 2010, at 22:36:57
Yes, I think my pdoc will brainstorm with me. I know he doesn't like me on so many meds, but if they are working he doesn't mind. I know they are working to a degree, but I am still very depressed.
I know that I will never be med free. I can accept that. I just want to lessen the amount of meds I am on. My goal would be to stay on the Adderall XR and the Trileptal. But maybe I would have to be on a AD, I don't know.
Maxie
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