Posted by buddhi on November 29, 2003, at 11:27:44
In reply to Re: New Treatment to OCD and social phobia, posted by Ame Sans Vie on July 20, 2003, at 18:52:27
> > Hey Ames, thanks for the reply! Im having a problem getting Ultram, my doctor wont prescribe it to me . I think she should thought because ive been on all the ssri's and Ultram has obviously proved to be beneficial in cases of refractory ocd and social anxiety. Maybe ill have to switch doctors.
>
> Yeah, my previous two doctors didn't want to give me Ultram either... one was just totally like "no way", the other was more open to the idea but I don't think he would have actually gone for it until I'd tried at least another 3,200 combinations of meds that have never worked for me, lol. I think it may be a good idea to look for a new doctor... if they're willing to prescribe you an opioid (or even a quasi-narcotic, like Ultram) out of *compassion*, then that definitely makes them a winner in my book.
>
> > Ive been trying herbal and amino acid supplements lately ie st johns wort, 5htp, DLPA, and others, but they just dont seem to give me the boost that i need and the relief from my ocd. Do u have any experience with this "natural" route?
>
>
> I've spent a few years using the "natural" therapies as adjuncts to my medications, and there are certain supplements I won't do without. St. John's Wort and 5-HTP did absolutely nothing for me. I haven't tried DLPA, but I'm considering adding it on to my current regime considering that it *may* help prevent tolerance from developing to the Ultram (though personally, I feel tolerance is not an issue with this med when it's used psychiatrically, as its action seems predominantly to be related to its 5HT and NE reuptake inhibition qualities... I say this because its affinity for mu-opioid receptors has been described as being 1/6000th as potent as morphine's, though Ultram's main active metabolite is slightly more active at those receptors).
>
> Anyway, as for my history with other supplements... well, this may take a while, lol.
>
> L-Theanine: Liked it. Created sort of a calm, collected feeling... sort of like the "centeredness" that picamilon provides. Too expensive for the good quality stuff though.
>
> L-Glutamine: Tried it because I'd read it was a precursor to glutamate, which is a precursor to GABA. It also is purported to reduce levels of lactic acid, which can be a cause of anxiety. I don't think it had any effect on my anxiety either way, but it definitely helped control my carb cravings!
>
> Pregnenolone: Read one study that suggested levels of pregnenolone tended to be lower in patients with social anxiety, so I tried 30mg each day for several months, to no avail.
>
> Acetyl L-Carnitine: I was mainly taking this as an adjunct to my low-carb diet at the time, as Dr. Atkins recommends it in his book "Dr. Atkins' New Diet Revolution". It did help me lose weight more quickly on the diet, but as for the mild mood-elevating properties it's said to possess... well... they must be *really* mild, lol.
>
> L-Taurine: This particular amino acid is said to help regulate neurotransmission in some way or another, but I personally didn't find it helpful.
>
> And here are the ones that I've tried and am still taking:
>
> Picamilon: This is GABA (the neurotransmitter some describe as your brain's 'natural Valium') bonded to niacin at the molecular level. GABA supplements alone are basically useless as far as mental health is concerned--the GABA in those capsules is incapable of crossing the blood-brain barrier. But bonded to niacin, which *is* capable of crossing the BBB, it is able to get to where it needs to go. It provides quick relief of anxiety and depression, while at the same time providing a nice energy boost. I'd describe it's effect as a total mind "centering". I take 100mg three times daily, without food.
>
> L-Tyrosine: I love this stuff!! I also supplement with P-5-P (a form of vitamin B6) which is essential when taking L-Tyrosine, and L-Phenylalinine, which I personally feel is essential while taking L-Tyrosine. I take one 500mg capsule each morning upon waking *up on an empty stomach*--very important to the amino acid's absorption.
>
> L-Phenylalinine: This, combined with L-Tyrosine and P-5-P, does quite a bit to improve my energy, stamina, and concentration abilities. All three of these work together to improve function of the dopaminergic and nor/adrenergic systems. L-Phenylaline in particular metabolizes into L-Tyrosine, though it seems to have immediate stimulant effects that L-Tyrosine alone lacks. I take two 500mg capsules each morning, with food.
>
> P-5-P (Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate): As I mentioned above, this is a form of vitamin B6 (pyridoxine) which is more readily available for use by your body. It's absolutely essential to be taking this while supplementing with L-Tyrosine--it plays an integral role in converting L-Tyrosine into dopamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine. I take 25mg each morning, with food.
>
> Niacinamide: This is a form of vitamin B3 (niacin) that has been shown to bind to benzodiazepine receptors in the brain. I find it to have a very nice calming effect, not unlike a low dose of a relatively non-sedating benzo like Serax. Very good for background stability. I take two 1,500mg extended-release tablets each morning, with food.
>
> Lecithin: Lecithin contains phosphatidyl choline, which is a precursor to acetylcholine, a brain neurotransmitter largely involved in memory and mental function. I haven't been taking it long, but I've heard a lot of good about it and am beginning to notice subtle improvements already in memory recall and short-term memory. Definitely a good supplement to take if you're on chronic benzodiazepine therapy (like me) since benzos can cause minor problems with memory. I take one tablespoon of it everyday with food, which contains 4.8 grams.
>
> Selenium: Good for prostate health, and even though I'm only a 20-year-old male, I firmly believe that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I take 100mcg each morning, with food.
>
> Vitamin C with Rose Hips: Pretty self-explanatory... I take two 500mg tablets each morning, with food.
>
> Vitamin B Sublingual Liquid Complex: A vitamin B complex is essential to good health, in my opinion, and especially good mental health. But don't waste your money on the tablets--most of the contents of those doesn't even get absorbed into your system. This liquid form is placed under the tongue, where it is held for about 30 seconds to allow most of the vitamins to absorb through the lining of the mouth, then you just swallow it. Doesn't taste bad either... the kind I have has a berry flavor to it. I take 1 dropper-full each morning, with food.
>
> Vitamin E: Another one that's pretty self-explanatory. Since they're oil-based pills though, they should always be taken separately from powder-based pills to ensure proper absorption. I take three 400mg capsules daily, with food.
>
> Fish Oil: Don't ask, just take them, lol! They're so wonderful for your health in so many ways, there's no excuse not to. They're oil-based, so I take them with my vitamin E. I take 3 capsules daily, each containing 180mg EPA and 120mg DHA.
>
> "Green Source" brand supplement: This is the ultimate multivitamin, multimineral, multi-everything supplement. The one I take is made by Vitamin World, though I'm sure there are equivalents made by other companies. This is what rounds off my entire supplement program. I've tried all sorts of other multivitamin/mineral supplements, but I've never found one that made me feel as good as this one does. I take one tablet three times daily, with food. Each three tablets contains:
>
> Vitamin A (100% as beta carotene) -- 15,000 I.U.
> Vitamin C -- 1,000mg
> Vitamin D -- 400 I.U.
> Vitamin E -- 250 I.U.
> Thiamin (vitamin B1) -- 25mg
> Riboflavin (vitamin B2) -- 25mg
> Niacin (vitamin B3) -- 25mg
> Vitamin B6 -- 25mg
> Folic Acid -- 400mcg
> Vitamin B12 -- 25mcg
> Biotin -- 50mcg
> Pantothenic Acid -- 25mg
> Calcium -- 250mg
> Iron -- 15mg
> Iodine -- 150mcg
> Magnesium -- 125mg
> Zinc -- 15mg
> Selenium -- 25mcg
> Copper -- 500mcg
> Manganese -- 4mg
> Chromium -- 100mcg
> Molybdenum -- 50mcg
> Potassium -- 50mg
> Boron -- 1mg
> Choline Bitartrate -- 50mg
> Inositol -- 25mg
> PABA (Para-Aminhobenzoic Acid) -- 25mg
> Citrus Bioflavonoids Complex (Orange) -- 100mg
> Quercetin -- 25mg
> Rutin -- 25mg
> Hesperidin (Orange) -- 10mg
> Bromelain (Pineapple-2,000GDU/gm) -- 20mg
> Betaine HCl -- 20mg
> Papain (Papaya) -- 20mg
> Amylase -- 5mg
> Lipase -- 5mg
> Protease -- 1mg
> Cellulase -- 2.5mg
> Proprietary Lactobacillus Blend -- 25mg
> Oat Bran (Avena sativa [husk]) -- 25mg
> Pectin (Apple) -- 25mg
> RNA -- 35mg
> DNA -- 10mg
> Carotenoids -- 10mg
> Vegetable Oil (Borage and Sunflower) -- 100mg
> L-Glutathione -- 5mg
> Spirulina -- 1,000mg
> Wheat Grass Juice (dry) -- 100mg
> Sprouted Barley Juice (dry) -- 100mg
> Flaxseed Oil (dry) -- 100mg
> Chinese Chlorella (broken cell wall) -- 100mg
> Bee Pollen -- 100mg
> Siberian Ginseng (Eleutherococcus senticosus) -- 50mg
> Dehydrated Garlic (Allium sativum) -- 10mg
> Echinacea -- 10mg
> Milk Thistle -- 10mg
> Goldenseal -- 10mg
> Ginger Root -- 10mg
> Gingko Biloba -- 10mg
> Cayenne Pepper -- 10mg
>
> Finally, there are some herbs that I take in different forms (most of the preparations I make myself) on an as-needed basis:
>
> Kava Kava: I've once heard this described as "the forgotten narcotic". And that's definitely not an overstatement. If you buy good quality kava kava (I find the kava from this site, http://www.mauigateway.com/~kava/kava.html, to be far superior to all others I've tried) it can be a wonderful way to wind down at the end of the day, or even a substitute for alcohol at parties! Every friend who's had the opportunity to try one of my kava chai drinks has been shocked at the potency and says they'll swear off alcohol for good if they can just come by my house once every week or two for one of my kava parties, lol. This is not something to take every day though, as it can cause liver problems. Its effects include elimination of anxiety and increased sociability, without any slowing of thought processes that traditional tranquilizers can cause. Here's my own personal recipe for cold kava chai, which serves two (and it's always a good idea to take some lecithin about an hour before using kava--it greatly enhances the effects):
>
> INGREDIENTS
> 1/2oz. ground kava root
> 1 cup half-and-half
> 1 bag Darjeeling tea, decaf
> 6 cardamom pods
> 1 tsp anise seed
> 10 cloves
> 1 cinnamon stick
> 1/8" ginger root, sliced thin
> 1/8 tsp black pepper corns
> 1 bay leaf
> Honey
> Powdered nutmeg or allspice
>
> PREPARING THE KAVA HALF-AND-HALF
> 1. Place ground kava root in half-and-half and leave in the refrigerator overnight. (kavalactones, the active constituents of kava kava, are highly fat-soluble)
> 2. After at least 12 hours of maceration in the refrigerator, strain the kava root from the half-and-half. Coffee filters work well for this.
>
> PREPARING THE TEA
> 1. Boil 1 cup water, then steep the remaining ingredients for 10-15 minutes, and strain.
> 2. Sweeten with honey, but make it a little sweeter than you want it. This is because you'll be adding the half-and-half next, but you'll want to wait to do that until the tea is cool--excessive heat destroys kavalactones, and honey doesn't integrate well with cold beverages.
>
> FINAL PREPARATION
> 1. Use two large mugs, and in each pour a half cup of the tea (which has been allowed to cool) and a half cup of the kava half-and-half. Sprinkle with nutmeg or allspice, and serve.
>
> Scullcap: This is a great herb, which many consider to be a suitable substitute for marijuana. It can be smoked, but for better effects, you should make an infusion. An infusion is essentially a tea, but with one crucial difference--you want to make sure that the water has cooled to about 170-180° before steeping the herb in it. Boiling water destroys the active constituents in many herbs. Its effects are similar to marijuana in many regards, but much milder. Just a great "relax-after-a-hard-day" kind of herb. This information also applies to catnip, damiana, and vervain, more or less.
>
> Rosemary: Rosemary tea is a rather ancient remedy for depression, and it does work rather well if drunk regularly. Just don't drink more than one cup of tea per day, as high levels can be toxic. If I'm having a lot of stress in my life and am feeling down about something, I'll start drinking rosemary tea and within a couple days I'll begin to feel relief.
>
> There are many other herbs I use for different purposes, including some much less well-known ones (blue lotus, betel nut, and sceletium tortuosum, for example), but these are the mainstays of my "herbal diet". I always keep homemade tinctures of my favorite herbs on hand. This is easily done by steeping the herb in 100-proof vodka for 2-4 weeks in a warm, dark place, taking it out once a day to shake it. After a few weeks, you simply strain out the plant material and use the tincture by adding around 20-30 drops to a drink, or just taking it sublingually, like the liquid B-vitamin complex.
>
> I'm very interested in trying homeopathic remedies, as I've read quite a bit about them lately. The Bach flower remedies sound interesting too... in fact I think I'll post about them once I'm through writing this to see if anyone has any experience/advice.
>
> > Ive never been on any meds like klonopin, but am very interested in trying it from what you have told me. Do u have any side effects on it? Also, did you have any extreme tiredness while on the ssri's?
>
> I personally have never experienced side effects from Klonopin, though most people feel sleepy the first week or two of regular use. I just have a really whacked out brain chemistry, I suppose. I have yet to find a medication that even makes me drowsy. Ambien, Elavil, Remeron, trazodone, Restoril, Tuinal--none of them make me sleepy in the least. So far the only thing that seems to be able to do it for me is massive doses of barbiturates or narcotics. Go figure.
>
> As for the SSRIs, yes, I did feel quite a bit of fatigue on them... Paxil and Luvox in particular. I'm not a big fan of the SSRIs. I personally feel that the idiots who market them should be forced to take them themselves, to see how *they* like it.
>
> > I think another possible route for my ocd and social anxiety would be stimulant meds like ephedrine or dexedrine. I know this probably sounds strange since these type of meds are usually only discussed in relation to ADD, but a very small dose of ephedrine 5mg, it totally relieves my ocd and social anxiety. Havnt tried dexedrine but i think it could be similar.
>
> Stimulants have been known to be helpful for a lot more than ADHD and narcolepsy. Quite a few people cite Dexedrine, Adderall, and Desoxyn as increasing sociability, especially when combined with a benzodiazepine (Klonopin in particular). I've never heard of them helping OCD, but that certainly doesn't mean it's not possible. I definitely wouldn't recommend taking ephedrine though--its peripheral effects are awful and regular use of it can cause damage to the cardiovascular system... quite possibly the central nervous system as well. I'd suggest you bring this up with your doctor though. Maybe a trial of Dexedrine would do the trick.
>
> > Thanks for your help!
>
> No problem, sorry this was so long--I'm just feeling really good today and felt like contributing, lol. Any other questions you have, feel free to ask!
>
> ~~MichaelWondering where you got your picamilon? Overseas or in the US? Specifics please thanks so much
poster:buddhi
thread:243298
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20031126/msgs/284964.html