Posted by gilbert on June 9, 2001, at 16:29:49
In reply to Re: Response to Cam » gilbert, posted by Cam W. on June 9, 2001, at 15:12:59
Cam,
I agree with much of your data however to say that you beleive that suicidal ideation is present prior to the use of an ssri and that the ssri is simply the catalyst is just "your belief". I know the cases have all been lost against Lilly but I don't think all of them were without merit. The first time I took prozac I had very vivid violent dreams, I also had very atypical outbursts of anger, and found myself involved in aggressive fantasies like thinking about fighting etc. These did subside and then prozac almost had a calming effect on me but for that initial period I was definitely not myself. I think the case could be made that someone on klonopin could have a depressive response and if the depression remained untreated and they committed suicide would it have occurred without the klonopin? I think to let the ssris off the hook for personality changes sufficient to cause violent behavior toward oneself or others is negligent. To say well that was a preexisting condition prior to meds or that person was wired to do this anyways is still conjecture. You yourself mentioned to me that a patient came in with mood swings and erratic behavior on an ace inhibitor of all things. You said once the drug was stopped all symptoms of bipolar disappeared. Now the drug must have been the culprit. Where in any medical journals or studies have ace inhibitors been shown to produce mania or bipolar tendnencies. But I do believe your story... we are all differnt and all react to meds differntly. You are giving the ssris a pass that you wouldn't give to a blood pressure med. I think the facts are clear in that ssris do effect and have an effect on all neurotransmitters. It is the preciseness and predictability of that effect that is in question. After all we are playing with one's brain chemsitry here....there should be effects on behavior and tendencies.
Lithium is a differnt way to achieve the same goal. Lithium may effect calcium channels and help neurotransmitters to operate more efficiently but lithium does not operate the same way an ssri does. So once again the whole seratonin shortage theories are simply that theories. They are looking at the egg and saying wow this came from the chicken. I think that the progress that has been made has been wonderfull and don't get me wrong I do believe that ssris are a very beautifull thing for some. However they are not manna from God or drugs from heaven and I think all too often you are willing to give them a pass especially versus benzos. I am not one of those who beleives the whole FDA is on the grassy knoll with Eli Lilley. I do believe however unfortunate that in a small few....let me repeat, a small few people the drugs have caused fatal side effects and personality changes that were not pre-existing or the behavior would have peeked it's ugly little head out at some prior time. IF you read some stories from the survivor groups there was dramtic changes in personality after adding the ssri to the mix. To be able to unequivically say well that person was suicidal prior to the med is as unprovable as it is to prove the med caused the suicide. The families who have been effected by one of these tragedies would disagree as well. There are more suicides caused by alcohol than any other drug. From my own experience with being an aloholic I was not suicidal prior to drinking but once alcohol was induced in chronic doses for long periods of time I was very suicidal. My only pre-existing condition may have been alcoholism......suicide was not.Thanks for the back and forth,
Gil
poster:gilbert
thread:65576
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010605/msgs/65938.html