![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 22 to 46 of 58. Go back in thread:
Posted by jules354 on September 30, 2006, at 12:39:36
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for, posted by SLS on September 30, 2006, at 10:27:59
>Yes. But for how long do you think a withdrawal rebound depression might last?
Hi Scott,
honestly, i don't know. that's why i'm going to stay off meds if i can but go back if my therapist and i feel that's the best course. i was speaking more out of a frustration for the lack of respect and empathy people receive from their doctors when withdrawal symptoms last longer than a few weeks. i would say this is a major problem with the way ADs are prescribed and managed, regardless of different people's experiences with relapse. we need a major overhaul of how mental illness is treated in this country.
in the meantime, i'm with you on wise use of biological treatment when needed in the system that's available. remeron likely saved my life.
take care,
jules
Posted by SLS on October 1, 2006, at 5:20:23
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for » SLS, posted by jules354 on September 30, 2006, at 12:39:36
> >Yes. But for how long do you think a withdrawal rebound depression might last?
>
> Hi Scott,
>
> honestly, i don't know. that's why i'm going to stay off meds if i can but go back if my therapist and i feel that's the best course.You know what my greatest wish is for you and Philip? It is that you both find some key to a door in life that opens up a world of freedom that had been eluding you for years without the need for drugs.
As for me, I unlocked and opened all of my doors long ago, as I began in my early twenties a self-actualizing transformation with the aid of psychological tools that I had learned in college and crafted on my own. I keep those doors open with the aid of group and individual therapies and vigilence. The only thing holding me back from a very, very healthy and wonderfully rewarding life is my neurological dysfunction. The people who know me personally can't help but to be puzzled by anyone who remains resistent to the biological explanation of major mental illnesses. I am that transparent.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on October 1, 2006, at 8:13:46
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for » SLS, posted by jules354 on September 30, 2006, at 12:39:36
Understand, though, that many depressions result from an interaction between biological vulnerabilities to Major Depressive Disorder and psychosocial stresses produced by all sorts of things including maladaptive depressive thought styles. It can become very confusing when one has come to have a depressive thought style because it might exist during and between biological Major Depressive Disorder episodes. Therefore, the MDD episode just feels like the usual depressive thought style getting worse. "Why should I treat my usual psychological condition with drugs just because I'm having a tougher time with it right now?" You know?
That being said, it can happen that if you treat the psychological psychosocial stress well enough, you can reduce the pressure on the brain enough so that its function can improve. The question is, how long do you give it before intervening with biological treatments? Obviously, the answer will be different for each individual and each situation. Perhaps you can watch for a trend. What can you use as a measurement tool? I have one on my website you can try. It is really for use with drug treatment, but it might have some value to you:
http://home.att.net/~sl.schofield3/medicine/mood_chart_beam.pdf
- Scott
Posted by musky on October 1, 2006, at 11:36:09
In reply to Re: Withdrawal from long term antidepressants » musky, posted by Philip N. on September 29, 2006, at 9:52:02
>
Hello Philip
Yes I understand what you are saying, but I think that anxiety itself "distorts" our view of life. There is a saying that goes "If you think it , so shall you be" ... something like that.
I know that anxiety will take its toll on the body /mind which is exactly my point. We want to get at the anxiety ,, not just block it as meds will ultimately do.. Sure you may feel fine when on meds(in my case not).. but are you REALLY??? I mean did issues really get dealt with? personal issues, etc.
Pay attention to your thoughts.. cognitive therapy has taught me that our feelings are ultimately stemming from our thoughts. Think of when you feel anxious, depressed... ask your self , what were you thinking just at that time?? I bet if you wrote this thought(s) down that you would find its NEGATIVE self defeating.
We can CHOOSE how we think.. that is what is inherent in us.
When a person is under alot of anxiety they tend to have negative distortion thoughts.
We think we are victims of anxiety and feel hopeless, helpless. Our tendency as human beings is to retreat into a hermit like state, like a wounded animal.. this is a sign that our bodies are giving us to tell us something is wrong.. but of course we know this, that is why we feel this way.
But we have to get at the "root " of the anxiety. Alot of time anxiety/depression is just a manifistation of what the REAL issues are going on in our lives. If we really do some soul searching we find what is truly bothering us in life..)personal issues, self esteem and overall health all play an important role.
You say that the "experts" say that untreated anxiety can take its toll, well everyone knows this including yourself. but if you only choose one path for treating anxiety, such as meds then you will always end up with the same result.
I hear ya when you say you want to be around for your family... that is yourwill to live talking which is good!! but i disagree when the so called experts(who dont take the med themselves) say that withdrawls dont last that long.. Sorry I dont believe it..
There is also alot of proof out there with peoples testimonies that say it does occur despite the "experts" .. Experts dont live in your body, experts dont experience the drugs effects, experts dont live in your relationships.. so how could they know about what you are feeling??? Sure they may have facts, based on "certain data", but they still dont really know how all this works... Statisitics and data can show anything you want it to show.. but it doesnt get at the root of our problems..
Our body/mind /spirit connection is very complex. and we each are different but I am just saying that meds dont cure the problem.. mask it maybe, but take the med away and you still have the same problem.. much like the alcoholic who takes that drink to "feel " better.. did it cure his depression?? ya maybe for that few hours, but then when the booze wore off they were depressed again.. and the problem was still there. so you see, we can take all the "happy pills" we want and use this as a crutch if you will, but to me that is no way to live.
Yesterday after 4months of Remeron free and fairly stable mood, I had a bit of a downswing in mood... I at first was worried and really feeling scared and down. but I am just riding it out.. cause I know this will passs.. I dont let my negative thinking suck me into believing I need a drug to stay happy, which in my case it didnt make me feel anything but numb/nonexistent.. I would rather feel panic/anxiety/ depressed states and work through it and OVERCOME them , than to be trapped on pills.
I believe that we all can heal and maybe the few percentage( and I mean very few) of people who truly have an organic disorder (like your psychic killers, etc.) maybe, need meds. But majority of your anxiety, depressive cases truly are just cognitive and can be treated with cognitive therapy very sucessfully.. the "experts" should know this!!!
Sorry this is my opinion.. do what you have to.. I strongly urge you to think about this before making a decision.. If you only think that meds is the answer for your well being , then you have already narrowed your choices.
We all want to feel well, and Im sure you have tried , but dont think negative about something before it happens.
You say you want to be med free, yet you say BUT.. therefore you have already locked yourself into a choice of meds only.. I know this may sound harsh, but sometimes we have to just kick %%%** and fight our way through... If you keep telling yourself you are not one of those strong ones, then you wont be.. if you keep telling yourself you are strong, over and over then you will be..Good luck in whatever you decide.
I know for me its med free, and I am glad Im off of this Remeron for 4months now... I will suffer throught the mood stuff..no matter what..
Musky
Hi Musky.
>
> I hear exactly what you are saying. The problem I've encountered is that in this fight I have lost ground. I'm now concerned about the effects this is having on my mental and physiacl well being. The is alot of proof that untreated Depression/Anxiety can extract a heavy toll on us up to and including killing us.
>
> Right now I think I'm having a hard time coming to an acceptance that I may not be one of those who has an episodic form of this stuff that you just kick *ss on and move on. I have never in my life been in this shape and many "experts" are saying that enough time has passed for it to be a discontinuation from meds. Even though I don't have a true opinion on that I know that at my current rate I won't last to make 2 years to find out.
>
> I'm at that point of considering the lesser of the 2: Waste away untreated or find some remission and rejoin my family so I can still be there for them. What is the ideal situation? Many including myself would say to be med free but that may bring with it some consequences that are worse than being on the stuff. I just celebrated my 30 year wedding anniversary by retreating to my bed to see if I could go to sleep.
>
> I don't smoke or drink alcohol (8 years sobriety) or life a wild life. I try to eat right and look at alternatives and such but at the same time the grip this thing has on me is becoming too paralytic. I don't want to lose it all trying to reach a plateau that for now is set too high. Maybe by relenting to medication I can rejoin my own life. Does any of this make sense?
>
> Thanks....let me know
>
Posted by musky on October 1, 2006, at 11:58:22
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for » Philip N., posted by SLS on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:23
> >First of all, diabetes and high blood pressure are KNOWN diseases.. they have blood tests SPECIFICALLY for measuring levels of blood glucose and blood pressure. The drugs developed for these conditions are SPECIFIC and then shown to work by further measuring these levels.
Antidepressents are NOT specific and affect MANY downstream pathways in the brain... They "think" that it affects serontonin but not definite on how this occurs. There is no specific serontonin test(that is a regular blood test, like one for blood sugar). So how can they "measure " the effectiveness of the drug??? The research out there shows peoples reports based on surveys which are actually very generalized questions which dont really get to a specific problem..
YOu cant compare diabetes to mood problems.. these are two totally different things.. So doctors shouldnt use this and an example to treat there patients or to justify using an a/d..What puzzles me is if everyone was so happy on these meds.. why why is so many trying to get off?? and why this site in the first place..
We are always trying to analyze things too much maybe... I think just let things go, take care of yourself (body mind and spirit) and stay positive..
I bet if you talked to the average joe on the street, they would have some "sort of disorder" according to the docs manual... so maybe medicate everyone???
Sorry, dont mean to be cynical but I just get frustrated to see so many people suffering and in a med mess .I mean if you want to stay on meds.. feel free,
I know its not for me... I'll be curious to see what happens in 6months ..if they found the golden pill... I doubt it..Musky
It may be either that or ending up in the hospital. My doc doesn't think I can weather much more and I'm thinking she may be right. My hope then if I get some relief would be a long slow taper down the road. I saw her today and she's pretty concerned. I thought I could willpower this into reality but it may take more than that!
>
>
> Can you willpower appendicitis?
>
> How does someone with type 1 diabetes taper off of insulin?
>
> If you are going to try to discontinue medication again, I would recommend that you wait 12-14 months. In the meantime, perhaps you can have some psychotherapy so that when you discontinue medication, you will be less likely to relapse. If you don't know where to start, perhaps you can browse the Psychology board for some ideas as to what type of therapy would best suit your needs.
>
> If you do relapse again within a matter of months, then you must consider the possibility that you should remain on medication indefinitely. The alternative is to be on and off medication. However, your brain might not allow you this as an alternative. Many people become resistent to treatment after multiple exposures to medication. So, coming off of medication repeatedly really is double jeapordy. You risk relapsing and seeing you and your life deteriorate, plus, you risk not responding to medication once it is restarted.
>
> Knowing me, I think I would probably try twice to discontinue medication. Two relapses would be plenty to show me that I had a brain disorder.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by musky on October 1, 2006, at 12:04:06
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for » Philip N., posted by jules354 on September 29, 2006, at 23:23:36
> Hi jules
Glad to hear u are still Remeron free... and again I agree it is long withdrawl effects.. these are VERY powerful drugs and it takes a long time to recover.. You say uyou were on Remeron for 6/7yrs?? yes, well of course it will take a long time to get back to balance.
I think uyou are on the right track... I was on for three years so I dont expect to feel llike me totally for 3yrs..hopefully it will be sooner but I will be patient...
We all have ups and downs and no one is 100% feeling good all the time... maybe all of our expectations are too high at this time.. we need to lower the bar and just keep going.Im off 4months now.. a down time yesterday but a bit better today... just going to work through it
musky
p.s.: it's pretty clear to me based on everybody's experiences on this board and in conversation with other people that discontinuation syndrome can definitely last a lot longer than the doctors say it should. so i do think that could be contributing to how you're feeling (and maybe me, too). it's hard to make the call, though. i hope you feel better soon!
>
> take care,
> jules
Posted by Philip N. on October 1, 2006, at 12:09:16
In reply to Re: Withdrawal from long term antidepressants, posted by musky on October 1, 2006, at 11:36:09
Hi Musky!
Thanks for your words bof encouragement!
Do you know anyone who took ADs for any length of time that was able to stay off for more than 1 year after stopping? I mean if it got to where I just stop altogether I don't think I will have a choice. It may be that I can continue to work with all this even though I'm still relying on medication.
I'm starting to worry about the untreated aspects of all this! My doctor has already made her mind up but she is being patient with me longer than she wants to. She has been my doc throughout the time that I have been on ADs.
This has become the hardest thing that I have had to fight and when I look at the symptoms vs diagnosis I feel that maybe I'm now fooling myself!
Posted by musky on October 1, 2006, at 12:25:03
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for » SLS, posted by jules354 on September 30, 2006, at 12:39:36
>
Hi jules
I agree with u on totally changing how we view mental illness and the management of meds..
Its almost the snake oil of the 21st century.. here take a pill to feel better.. We need to educate people better , and much earlier in life how to cope with stress and life events and just deal with issues not to avoid .. We need to teach people about self esteem and also encourage support systems..
Everyone has anxiety to some degree or another we just need to know how to manage it successufully and not keep putting bandaids on things(with meds)..
The human body is very complex and it is a SYTEM which of course will cycle... we all have cycles and if we just accept this is the life then maybe our depressive symptoms, anxiety and panic around all this will subside..
Dont fear the fear or it becomes bigger..
FEED the Good wolf(an old indian legend).Hang in there
Musky
>Yes. But for how long do you think a withdrawal rebound depression might last?
>
> Hi Scott,
>
> honestly, i don't know. that's why i'm going to stay off meds if i can but go back if my therapist and i feel that's the best course. i was speaking more out of a frustration for the lack of respect and empathy people receive from their doctors when withdrawal symptoms last longer than a few weeks. i would say this is a major problem with the way ADs are prescribed and managed, regardless of different people's experiences with relapse. we need a major overhaul of how mental illness is treated in this country.
>
> in the meantime, i'm with you on wise use of biological treatment when needed in the system that's available. remeron likely saved my life.
>
> take care,
> jules
Posted by johnnyj on October 1, 2006, at 12:31:42
In reply to Re: Withdrawal from long term antidepressants, posted by musky on October 1, 2006, at 11:36:09
Musky:
I feel you are trying to justidy why meds are always bad. If you were not put on AD's for depression or anxiety how do you know they never work for such conditions?
So only pyschotic people have chemical imbalances? I don't understand your thinking at all. If that is true couldn't a chemical imablance cause anxiety or depression too then? We know during anixety attacks things are chemically changed in the body.
Yes, high blood pressure and diabetes problems can be measured in the body. Just because they haven't figured out how to measure neurotrasmitters yet doesn't mean an imbalance doesn't exist.
If someone has been helped by AD's doesn't this means they have worked? NOT all drugs are like remeron.
Sometimes I feel you think your experiences should be the same for everyone and they are not. Med free is the goal but may not work for everyone. We each have to choose our OWN path.
A lot of my problems are due to allergies. If those had not been treated I would be in a world of hurt. My point is we can measure some body processes and others we cannot YET.
You are lucky that you have been doing fine off of meds. Some of us are not that fortunate.
johnnyj
Posted by musky on October 1, 2006, at 12:34:16
In reply to Re: Withdrawal from long term antidepressants » musky, posted by Philip N. on October 1, 2006, at 12:09:16
>
Hi Philip:Yes I do know people (some personal friends of mine) who have VERY SUCESSFULLY have been and remain free of a/d.. after taking long term..
They are fine.. they have good attitudes and a sense of humor, they keep active and dont dwellon things.. they dont let fear take over.. they just live their lives and dont worry about the WHAT IFS.. they stay in the moment..
I am trying to adopt these beliefs more and more and it truly helps.Remember.. uyour doc is speaking from her viewpoiont only ( and trained to prescribe rxs) . its like a programmed computer... when this .. rx this..,, if this doesnt work rx this..
you cant really blame them.. they are trained this way much as you train anyone to believe anything. Yet you talk to a traditional chinese acupuncturist who beleives the eastern Philosophy and see the amazing results from this tretament.. you begin to wonder... and this culture has been practicing there treatments for thousands of years longer than western mediicine..
I have yet to see the orientals suffering from anxitey/ depression. panic attacks.. anyone I know they are fully functioning people..
Im sure there are some ,but probabley a lot less than our society.... everTake care
Musky
Hi Musky!
>
> Thanks for your words bof encouragement!
>
> Do you know anyone who took ADs for any length of time that was able to stay off for more than 1 year after stopping? I mean if it got to where I just stop altogether I don't think I will have a choice. It may be that I can continue to work with all this even though I'm still relying on medication.
>
> I'm starting to worry about the untreated aspects of all this! My doctor has already made her mind up but she is being patient with me longer than she wants to. She has been my doc throughout the time that I have been on ADs.
>
> This has become the hardest thing that I have had to fight and when I look at the symptoms vs diagnosis I feel that maybe I'm now fooling myself!
Posted by jules354 on October 1, 2006, at 14:54:59
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? » jules354, posted by SLS on October 1, 2006, at 5:20:23
Hi Scott,
> You know what my greatest wish is for you and Philip? It is that you both find some key to a door in life that opens up a world of freedom that had been eluding you for years without the need for drugs.Thank you. I appreciate that.
> The people who know me personally can't help but to be puzzled by anyone who remains resistent to the biological explanation of major mental illnesses.
I'm not sure if you meant "anyone" to refer to me, but I think you and I are more or less on the same page about biological explanations and treatments. Maybe more than you think, I wonder.take care,
jules
Posted by jules354 on October 1, 2006, at 14:55:36
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants?, posted by jules354 on October 1, 2006, at 14:54:59
Posted by SLS on October 1, 2006, at 20:28:29
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for, posted by musky on October 1, 2006, at 11:58:22
> > >First of all, diabetes and high blood pressure are KNOWN diseases.. they have blood tests SPECIFICALLY for measuring levels of blood glucose and blood pressure. The drugs developed for these conditions are SPECIFIC and then shown to work by further measuring these levels.
Ok.
> Antidepressents are NOT specific and affect MANY downstream pathways in the brain...
How do you know whether they are upstream or downstream? Scientists haven't decided that yet.
Insulin is not treating the disease. The disease in in the pancreas. As you say, it is affecting things downstream.
If it works, it works. Right?
So, anyway...
> They "think" that it affects serontonin but not definite on how this occurs.
I don't know who you think "they" are. If you take a look at the more recent work on depression, you will find that there are many different areas of investigation. I don't think that most scientists conceptualize depression as being the result of a simple reduction in "serotonin levels". That is an old and primordial way of thinking. However, it is still a commonly used explanation of depression for the lay public. Nothing more.
> There is no specific serontonin test(that is a regular blood test, like one for blood sugar).
Well, actually, blood platelets contain neurotransmitter receptors and transporters. The binding of some of these receptors vary in depression and some anxiety disorders. Although there is no consensus as to which receptors yield the most consistent associations, I don't doubt that a test might be developed soon. Some are even experimenting with blood platelet characteristics in order to predict treatment response. So, yes, blood test may be possible.
A blood test has been in existence for over 20 years. Known as the dexamethasone suppression test (DST), it involves the measurement of cortisol in response to steroid challenge. I had it done in 1982 and I tested positive. This test probably fell out of favor because it did not detect all types of depression. It is unfortunate that it was not pursued as a test for treatment choice. My guess is that people who test positive to the DST are more apt to respond to certain drugs - TCA, MAOIs, and Effexor perhaps.
> So how can they "measure " the effectiveness of the drug???
You ask the patient how they are feeling.
- Scott
Posted by musky on October 1, 2006, at 23:11:46
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for » musky, posted by SLS on October 1, 2006, at 20:28:29
> > > >First of all, diabetes and high blood pressure are KNOWN diseases.. they have blood tests SPECIFICALLY for measuring levels of blood glucose and blood pressure. The drugs developed for these conditions are SPECIFIC and then shown to work by further measuring these levels.
>
> Ok.
>
> > Antidepressents are NOT specific and affect MANY downstream pathways in the brain...
>
> How do you know whether they are upstream or downstream? Scientists haven't decided that yet.
* Exactly my point .. they dont know ...
You want to get specific over upstream downstream, it doesnt matter as the chemical pathways are AFFECTED and not just the serotonin pathway.. that is my point and this is what worries me.
> Insulin is not treating the disease. The disease in in the pancreas. As you say, it is affecting things downstream.
***I know this but my point being we know that insulin regulates blood sugar and if the pancreas isnt making it properly or if the cells are not producing insulin then this is a DIRECT effect. this has been proven with SPECIFICALLY testing for insulin levels ... With mood disorders , etc, etc. they dont know what each receptor is responsible for.
>
> If it works, it works. Right?
****If it worked we wouldnt have so many people still trying meds on and on.. and we wouldnt be here debating on this post.
>
> So, anyway...
>
> > They "think" that it affects serontonin but not definite on how this occurs.
>
> I don't know who you think "they" are. If you take a look at the more recent work on depression, you will find that there are many different areas of investigation. I don't think that most scientists conceptualize depression as being the result of a simple reduction in "serotonin levels". That is an old and primordial way of thinking. However, it is still a commonly used explanation of depression for the lay public. Nothing more.
****Exactly my point .. they meaning all your scientists but mainly the docs who get these reports from drug company funded research. As you say they dont know ,, they are just speculating what they think may be happening.. and it is foolish to mislead the public/patient this way.. so many out there are buying into the theory that their serontonin levels are off.. maybe soo. but prove it I say.. and also why are they classifying the drugs as SELECTIVE SERONTONIN REUPTAKE INHIBITORS???!!!! falsy suggesting it is selective for serontonin only... not true.. it affects serontonin in the long run, (maybe)so they speculate but only after affecting many more signalling events in the cell... This is the fact here.
>
> > There is no specific serontonin test(that is a regular blood test, like one for blood sugar).
>
> Well, actually, blood platelets contain neurotransmitter receptors and transporters. The binding of some of these receptors vary in depression and some anxiety disorders. Although there is no consensus as to which receptors yield the most consistent associations, I don't doubt that a test might be developed soon. Some are even experimenting with blood platelet characteristics in order to predict treatment response. So, yes, blood test may be possible.Again my point.. if there is serontonin in other cells how can they possibly say that these a/d are affecting ONLY the neurotransmitters/receptors in the brain.. so in essence when taking the med it affects ALL areas of the body.. EVERY Cell.. Many other factors affect the binding of receptors from protein-protein interactions to recruiting of adaptor proteins, and the list goes on. Also the very genetic makeup of each individual is so different that one cannot say that the drug is specific for depression, anxiety.. one would have to genetically engineer a magic pill for every person/s genetic makeup and that simply is unrealistic I would say... and then you have environmental factors playing a huge role and the the persons age, weight, and sex and culture.. but do they consider these?? no and this again worries me.. Its a one size fits all.
They keep calling these drugs SELECTIVE yet they are NOT...With insulin it is only made in the pancreas... therefore will be targeted there.. thats the difference.
>
> A blood test has been in existence for over 20 years. Known as the dexamethasone suppression test (DST), it involves the measurement of cortisol in response to steroid challenge. I had it done in 1982 and I tested positive. This test probably fell out of favor because it did not detect all types of depression. It is unfortunate that it was not pursued as a test for treatment choice. My guess is that people who test positive to the DST are more apt to respond to certain drugs - TCA, MAOIs, and Effexor perhaps.
* And cortisol levels are controlled by the adrenal glands.. so there are many different causes for cortisol to be off.. even obesity.. , diet etc.. so this test isnt specific enough to justify messing with receptors in the brain and elsewhere in case it affects the mood.
>
> > So how can they "measure " the effectiveness of the drug???
>
> You ask the patient how they are feeling.
> * Again my point.. this is all subjective and very generalized.. Have you taken the Burns anxiety survey before.. its very biased and the other surveys they give at docs offices, psyche clinics all have very general questions which lead into into answering one way or the other,,, again to "FIT" the way they want the survey to turn out.. They only Give so many choices for the patient to check off.. so it boxes you in...not a true indication of the real you.. too generalized.
Also what one persons interpretation of a feeling depressed may be very different for the next person.. how can they summarize this accuratley on a survey..
>
> - ScottMusky
Posted by SLS on October 2, 2006, at 7:45:55
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for, posted by musky on October 1, 2006, at 23:11:46
> > > > >First of all, diabetes and high blood pressure are KNOWN diseases.. they have blood tests SPECIFICALLY for measuring levels of blood glucose and blood pressure. The drugs developed for these conditions are SPECIFIC and then shown to work by further measuring these levels.
> > Ok.
> > > Antidepressents are NOT specific and affect MANY downstream pathways in the brain...
> > How do you know whether they are upstream or downstream? Scientists haven't decided that yet.> * Exactly my point .. they dont know ...
I was just curious how you came to identify downstream pathways when scientist had not done so yet, that's all.
I think this will help a lot:
It is not the objective of medicine to understand biology. It is the objective of medicine to get people better. Very often, this means using a drug that it doesn't understand how it works. Actually, this has been the whole history of medicine up until the last 50 years or so. People couldn't wait around for biological science to figure out how penicillin worked when it was first discovered by accident. That wasn't to happen for many years. There are still many, many drugs for which the exact mechanism of action is not understood. Just open up the PDR and have a look. Should people wait around and die while these medical discoveries are researched by biologists?
Very often, people want to discontinue medication precicely because it has worked. It is not the proposition upon the initiation of drug treatment that it be for a lifetime. It is often agreed that a patient will discontinue drug treatment after he feels well for a certain number of months. Of course, we are going to see so many people wanting to discontinue their antidepressants. They worked.
> > If it works, it works. Right?
> ****If it worked we wouldnt have so many people still trying meds on and on.. and we wouldnt be here debating on this post.
As we could also say of psychotherapy.
Of course, there are treatment failures. 30-40% of people will need to discontinue their first drug to go on to a second drug. 30% of those will need to go on to a third drug or have drugs added as combination treatments. Still others who are extraordinarily treatment-resistant end up here. These people switch drugs frequently in a desperate effort to find something that works for them. This is unfortunate, but it is not unprecedented in the field of medicine. Even antibiotics are sometimes applied in a trial-and-error format.
That a series of drug therapies fail to treat an ailment does not prove that the ailment doesn't exist. I believe that my ailment is biological. There is finally overwhelming evidence to demonstrate this, in my opinion. Although I didn't need to see this proof, it does help to know that it helps fuel research into finding biological cures for a biological illness.
You are entitled to believe differently.
- Scott
Posted by musky on October 3, 2006, at 1:42:43
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for » musky, posted by SLS on October 2, 2006, at 7:45:55
> > > > > >First of all, diabetes and high blood pressure are KNOWN diseases.. they have blood tests SPECIFICALLY for measuring levels of blood glucose and blood pressure. The drugs developed for these conditions are SPECIFIC and then shown to work by further measuring these levels.
>
> > > Ok.
>
> > > > Antidepressents are NOT specific and affect MANY downstream pathways in the brain...
>
> > > How do you know whether they are upstream or downstream? Scientists haven't decided that yet.
>
> > * Exactly my point .. they dont know ...
>
> I was just curious how you came to identify downstream pathways when scientist had not done so yet, that's all.# I was using the term downstream to make a statement , not a conclusion.. thats all. As I work in a research lab that studies signalling events in a cell , it makes sense and yes there are upstream as well as downstream events.
>
> I think this will help a lot:
>
> It is not the objective of medicine to understand biology. It is the objective of medicine to get people better. Very often, this means using a drug that it doesn't understand how it works. Actually, this has been the whole history of medicine up until the last 50 years or so. People couldn't wait around for biological science to figure out how penicillin worked when it was first discovered by accident. That wasn't to happen for many years. There are still many, many drugs for which the exact mechanism of action is not understood. Just open up the PDR and have a look. Should people wait around and die while these medical discoveries are researched by biologists?# Well I think it better be the objective of medicine to understand biology after all, we are biological systems. And how can you get people better if you dont understand the biology of the system in the first place.. Using a drug that we dont understand exactly how it works or just plain how it works is dangerous.. giving people drugs and not knowing how it works is just using humans as guinea pigs.. Drugs need to be further tested. As for penicillin the proof was right there that it worked.. by killilng the bacteria in culture.. and they did find out how it works, they know the mechanism of action.
If you read the PDF manual as well most a/d that are in there they do not say how it works or the long term effects of the drug.. Im curious as to why they dont follow up on the thousands of patients that are on the drug.. LONG term I mean or follow up on patients that are coming off the a/d.. You never see reports of this.. hmmm
And no people shouldnt wait around and die while waiting for medical research,, but guess what they are already dying by drug hopping and overdosing and the sheer anxiety surrounding trying to find the right cocktail.. so we cant come to the conclusion that people will die if they wait for research.. there are alternatives to waiting... alternative treatments..
Another example is ecstasy .. it has killed more youths and caused more addictions.. yet it was a FAILED antidepressant.. so much for not wanting to wait and research the drug further.. no.. they wanted totry it right away... "save people from depression"" now look what it has done..
>
> Very often, people want to discontinue medication precicely because it has worked. It is not the proposition upon the initiation of drug treatment that it be for a lifetime.# Then why do so many doctors tell a patient they have to reamain on the drug indefinitely or for the rest of their lives... if its not the intention??
??//
It is often agreed that a patient will discontinue drug treatment after he feels well for a certain number of months. Of course, we are going to see so many people wanting to discontinue their antidepressants. They worked.
# Then why are there so many postings saying they want off because they didnt feel right on the drug.. you never see a post saying they feel great , so their stopping the meds.. they are saying that they cant stand the side effects and that they dont want to be on them anymore.or They are not feeling , thats the problem here.. no feelings/numb=translates into feeling well in a doctors perspective or to the family of the patient.. if they dont see you crying they think you are well. And if they worked then why are so many people trying more than one kind? I think its more it didnt work so WhY take the drug..
With penicillin it works because you take it once and then your done.. the infection is gone.. that bacteria was killed by the antibiotic.. you dont have to keep taking it .. and also usually your immune system does the job for you and if u are stressed or immune suppressed that is only when you need the xtra pencicillin/antibiotic. So with a/d it seems that people are on it for months /years and still feel/not right.. so this doesnt make sense to keep taking the drug.>
> > > If it works, it works. Right?
>
> > ****If it worked we wouldnt have so many people still trying meds on and on.. and we wouldnt be here debating on this post.
>
> As we could also say of psychotherapy.
# psychotherapy will work if u practice what yu learn... theres a difference between popping a pill and thinking... psychotherapy gets at the root of your thinking therefore getting the issue solved ,,not bandaging it up.
> ///
> Of course, there are treatment failures. 30-40% of people will need to discontinue their first drug to go on to a second drug. 30% of those will need to go on to a third drug or have drugs added as combination treatments. Still others who are extraordinarily treatment-resistant end up here. These people switch drugs frequently in a desperate effort to find something that works for them.# which again is my point.. the continued switching of meds is proof enough that this way isnt working for the patient.. why subject them to the continued anxiety and frustration of stopping and starting meds , not to mention the toll it takes on the physiological aspect of the body.. this cant possibly be healthy.. this in turn will affect the mind...
its like if you were making stew and just kept adding who knows what ingredient to get the taste"just right" and it just kept getting more and more stuff added into it, yet the taste just got worse and you couldnt get it right,, why would yu keep adding all the ingredients senslessly.. to me yu would throw it out and start with a NEW RECIPE or in the case of meds.. try other methods... not more meds.
This is unfortunate, but it is not unprecedented in the field of medicine. Even antibiotics are sometimes applied in a trial-and-error format.
## antibiotics dont mess with the brain/cognitive aspect of the person. and this trial and error is because there are more than one strain of bacteria out there. They dont know how the mood / chemical interactions work..
its like how can you know where you are going in a foreign country without a MAP??//
>
> That a series of drug therapies fail to treat an ailment does not prove that the ailment doesn't exist.#Oh the ailment exists allright, but the treatment is what is the problem..and I wouldnt say its an ailment, rather a manisfistation of a deeper rooted issue.. like i say.. there is more than one way to treat mood/ imbalances in the system. Alternative.. which just means OTHER THAN meds, etc.//
believe that my ailment is biological.#If you believe this then u have cornered yourself.. if you really believe you dont have a choice about your illness, then you have lost the battle.. Im not saying denial here, im saying just think outside the box..//
There is finally overwhelming evidence to demonstrate this, in my opinion. Although I didn't need to see this proof, it does help to know that it helps fuel research into finding biological cures for a biological illness.
## Biological cures mean natural not chemical and safer not harmful side effects.. have you noticed the black box warnings on the a/d rx these days?? Obviouslly there is a real danger out there. Especially to the adolescent population that are rx so readily too... increase in suicidal thinking and actions .. to me this is just another form of child abuse.. rx this stuff to teens.. again look at the ECSTACY drug hype.. Doctors "thought " it was safe..
>
> You are entitled to believe differently.
# yes I am as so are you.. enjoy your meds my friend.. and thanks for the debate.
After all its what we perceive as our own reality.. to me life is to be lived, not just exist... and thats what meds doo.. sure maybe they keep you alive.. numbed out but well alive...so this is something we should cherish???
like I said to each their own, but I hate to see the next generation after us all spaced out on meds all the time and not facing reality.
dont get me wrong.. I was down deep too.. very deep and if someone had said then to me just stop feeling that way i would have hit them too.. but on the other hand I needed to get tough on myself to survive.. yes you have to go through the emotions to heal, but there comes a time that you just have to get tough against the depression . anxiety.. and fight it not fear it .. ACCEPTANCE but not in a negative way like viewing oneself as a victim of mental illness, etc.. I dont like that term, I think of it as more of a dissarray of the soul, and we just need to be complete spiritually, physically, and emotionally. that is a journey we all take.
The very fact that they dont know alot about how the brain functions is all the more reason to PROCEED WITH CAUTION in the use of any meds affecting thought behavior.. ask all your drug addicts out there on the streets .Musky
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by SLS on October 3, 2006, at 8:17:00
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for, posted by musky on October 3, 2006, at 1:42:43
I don't wish to continue a debate regarding the substantiation of biological psychiatry. I believe that it is inconsistent with the theme of the Withdrawal board.
I do understand your concerns. I think we all wish that humankind had reached a point further along in the understanding of all things medical by now, but we have to do the best we can with what we have.
My only comment at this point is that many of the so called "natural" remedies are entirely chemical and should be treated with the same respect as any drug.
- Scott
Posted by musky on October 4, 2006, at 23:22:16
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for, posted by SLS on October 3, 2006, at 8:17:00
> I agree, this is not a debate per say.. but seeing so many on this message board trying to get OFF meds is obviously saying something..
and the so called natural products are just that,natural... what the body will recognize much easier, hence no side effects compared to rx drugs. take your pick, side effects vs no side effects.. I know what I would choose.
Have you thought about natural products yourself?
Of course anything we take in excess can potentially harm us.. even aspirin, coffee.. so really what it comes down to is balance and safety. But I would much rather take my chances with herbs than rx a/d , anyday. There are numerous reports of deaths and damages done by rx drugs.. I have yet to see reports where someone died of overdose of a herb. You will see time and again about vioxx , celexa, aspirin, prozac, paxil, oxycondon- and others that are in the news with tragic outcomes. These are all chemicals processed in a lab with the vehicle to deliver them being just as dangerous. If you read what is in st johns wort for example(used very successfully in depression), u will see that it is just that and in a natural base ..So lets just agree to disagree here and I have just as much right to post my expieriences about withdrawl as anyone.. I am trying to help people get through withdrawl hopefully by posting here. this is the point we should all try to keep in mind...
If people are choosing to stay on their meds then they need to go to a different message board, or perhaps you could create a new one called, "staying on medication" or "choosing medication" .We need to support each other through withdrawl , not continue to have to go through withdrawl because we are on again off again meds...
Good luck to you
Im sure this will keep going in circles as long as the train of thought stays the same..Musky
I don't wish to continue a debate regarding the substantiation of biological psychiatry. I believe that it is inconsistent with the theme of the Withdrawal board.
>
> I do understand your concerns. I think we all wish that humankind had reached a point further along in the understanding of all things medical by now, but we have to do the best we can with what we have.
>
> My only comment at this point is that many of the so called "natural" remedies are entirely chemical and should be treated with the same respect as any drug.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by SLS on October 5, 2006, at 9:32:35
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for, posted by musky on October 4, 2006, at 23:22:16
> > I agree, this is not a debate per say.. but seeing so many on this message board trying to get OFF meds is obviously saying something..
Already addressed...
> and the so called natural products are just that,natural...
Botanicals are simply chemicals to be found in plants. Some can be harmful if taken in excess or in combination with other substances.
> what the body will recognize much easier, hence no side effects compared to rx drugs.
The body no more "recognizes" atropine from belladonna than it does from a IM vial.
Hemlock???
All I did was to offer a simple caveat regarding things labelled as "natural", not issue a doctrine of rejection against alternative treatments.
> Have you thought about natural products yourself?
Yup. Tried quite a few. Researched them too. Thanks.
> I have yet to see reports where someone died of overdose of a herb.
Don't make me Google.
Let's continue this on another board.
- Scott
Posted by jules354 on October 5, 2006, at 16:25:53
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for, posted by musky on October 1, 2006, at 12:04:06
Hi Musky,
I just wanted to thank you for the well wishes and let you know I've been feeling a lot better lately. Thanks for the reminder that it can be a long haul...
take care,
jules
Posted by musky on October 5, 2006, at 21:59:32
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for » musky, posted by jules354 on October 5, 2006, at 16:25:53
>
No prob, jules... keep goin is all I say and it does get better,, I still have my times and freaky moods but they are much less.. sometimes the mood does deep alot , but i just KEEP my mind busy and it passes... thats all ive been doin, besides the detox and tryin to exercise. I also started a yoga class once a week.. helps relax the body and teaches you control.. could mental discipline.. I dont beleive for minute the doctors saying it is rebound anxiety crap//..its the body trying to balance from being screwed up on meds for soooo long..4.5months off remeron now and still managing.
take care
Musky
Hi Musky,
>
> I just wanted to thank you for the well wishes and let you know I've been feeling a lot better lately. Thanks for the reminder that it can be a long haul...
>
> take care,
> jules
Posted by SLS on October 6, 2006, at 8:54:04
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for, posted by musky on October 1, 2006, at 12:04:06
> it's pretty clear to me based on everybody's experiences on this board and in conversation with other people that discontinuation syndrome can definitely last a lot longer than the doctors say it should.
I agree. It seems to me that 3-4 months is not at all rare. I wish I had a better idea as to how long it is necessary to be on these drugs for such a long period of withdrawal to occur. I don't know that it should even be called withdrawal by that time. It is an unwellness or dysfunction that is residual to the changes the drugs make in the body. I think another word should be coined to describe it. I don't know.
- Scott
Posted by Philip N. on October 6, 2006, at 19:55:59
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for, posted by musky on October 4, 2006, at 23:22:16
For many of us struggling with withdrawal it may be (as I am finding out) that we have to go back on the medication before making another run at it. I stopped cold turkey and had no idea about tapering and of the degrees that I may have to go to in that endeavor.Isn't that not a srategy that many are having to do as we become more familiar with all of this. I mean, if I'm on my back and not able to get up (even though my goal is to be off of the medication), wouldn't it be better to at least get back on my feet so I can work it again later. Simply because we may not succeed this round doesn't mean that our goal has changed. Therefor any strategy that will ultimately help someone who wants to stop should be on this board. I have struggled with not taking any medicine for the past 3 months knowing that stopping the way I did is not the way to go. So, for those who have succeeded IN WITHDRAWAL this is a good place to help others.
Philip
Posted by johnnyj on October 6, 2006, at 20:51:41
In reply to Withdrawal from long term antidepressants, posted by SLS on October 6, 2006, at 8:54:04
Wow, good point Scott. I believe withdrawal is over for me, but something else is not right. It appears remeron made my ocd issues worse. I hope ship rights itself but I need to make a decision or a time frame because things are not well. If I could only sleep things would be tolerable.
I do wonder if a new med would help though? I am not quite there yet but I meet by pdoc on Monday and we will discuss things. I am seeing my illness is a new light after quitting meds. It is hard to explain but I feel at times that I had to go off meds to realize that maybe I really do need something to make this journey better for me. After doing some reasearch and reading it is obvious the drugs I was on were not for my dx. Too bad it took 15 years to get a dx that I feel is finally right.
Thank your for your insight.johnnyj
Posted by musky on October 7, 2006, at 0:22:07
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for » musky, posted by Philip N. on October 6, 2006, at 19:55:59
>
I agree phillip.. stopping cold turkey is not the way.. Im surprised docs dont tell people this. I had to find out myself and through my acupuncturist that I needed to do a very slow taper.. remember these drugs do change the chemicals in the brain.. therefore it stands to reason that it will take a long time to change back..
Good luck and just keep trying.. and stay strong.
I think taper is the way definitely to go.. thats what I did and now im off 4 and a half months.. so far doing ok.. still not me yet, but I am being patient.. Iwas on Remeron for 3yrs... 1.5yrs plust taper of over a year .. total drug time + 3yrs)therefore expect it to take a while
MuskyFor many of us struggling with withdrawal it may be (as I am finding out) that we have to go back on the medication before making another run at it. I stopped cold turkey and had no idea about tapering and of the degrees that I may have to go to in that endeavor.Isn't that not a srategy that many are having to do as we become more familiar with all of this. I mean, if I'm on my back and not able to get up (even though my goal is to be off of the medication), wouldn't it be better to at least get back on my feet so I can work it again later. Simply because we may not succeed this round doesn't mean that our goal has changed. Therefor any strategy that will ultimately help someone who wants to stop should be on this board. I have struggled with not taking any medicine for the past 3 months knowing that stopping the way I did is not the way to go. So, for those who have succeeded IN WITHDRAWAL this is a good place to help others.
> Philip
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Withdrawal | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.