![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by corafree on September 8, 2006, at 6:51:48
I say tentative, because I am not being forced to do this by anyone or myself, and because did it once b4 and pain was not tolerable.
Yeah; so .. I have herniated discs in c-spine.
I've been on oxycodone 10/650 3x a day for 2-3yrs(Began Darvocet in .. wow .. '94 or so!) and I'm using to Lyrica to try get down to 5/whatever 3x a day, and I'm surprised that 'the need for relief' you feel when a narcotic is expected and not received, IS buffered by Lyrica.
Oh ... there is PTSD and borderline stuff all around this injury, so 'my head' gets to feeling sorry for my body.
I'm little .. 115lbs, 5'5'. Doc called in some is Lyrica 25s and 50s for me to play with. I've only been on the 75mg at h.s. and has helped as I've said. I asked for the little 25s to take during day as felt initially a little 'sleepy affect' w/ Lyrica.
Had break-through pain yesterday morn' so had to go w/ my oxycodone. Having again this a.m. so will have to do same. If awaken tomorrow w/o bt pain, will only take 50/whatever(525?) oxycodone (I'm chopping them up!). I'll ask for smaller dosage pills when see PCP in week and half.
love, cf
Posted by Holly VanBen on September 12, 2006, at 15:58:49
In reply to Tentative Withdrawal From Oxycodone, posted by corafree on September 8, 2006, at 6:51:48
> I say tentative, because I am not being forced to do this by anyone or myself, and because did it once b4 and pain was not tolerable.
>
> Yeah; so .. I have herniated discs in c-spine.
>
> I've been on oxycodone 10/650 3x a day for 2-3yrs(Began Darvocet in .. wow .. '94 or so!) and I'm using to Lyrica to try get down to 5/whatever 3x a day, and I'm surprised that 'the need for relief' you feel when a narcotic is expected and not received, IS buffered by Lyrica.
>
> Oh ... there is PTSD and borderline stuff all around this injury, so 'my head' gets to feeling sorry for my body.
>
> I'm little .. 115lbs, 5'5'. Doc called in some is Lyrica 25s and 50s for me to play with. I've only been on the 75mg at h.s. and has helped as I've said. I asked for the little 25s to take during day as felt initially a little 'sleepy affect' w/ Lyrica.
>
> Had break-through pain yesterday morn' so had to go w/ my oxycodone. Having again this a.m. so will have to do same. If awaken tomorrow w/o bt pain, will only take 50/whatever(525?) oxycodone (I'm chopping them up!). I'll ask for smaller dosage pills when see PCP in week and half.
>
> love, cfHi CF,
I was on oxycodone and Lyrica and much more for pain. I also elected to stop all my meds. I have been on Morphine based drugs and Narc's and Lyrica/Nuerontin and Benzo's and others for quite a few years. I could not stand the side effects any more and felt everything else had been tried. I am at almost 5 weeks clean now, it has been horrile and I never want to go through this again. I can tell you I had to taper for about 5 months before quitting and I wouldn't do it again without help and detox. If you have to do this alone make sure you stay in constant with your doc. Make sure he can prescribe meds for withdrawals symptoms as well. (very important NOT all docs can, I found out the hard way) I know the pain is horrible and unbearable. I do want to tell you though the more you reduce your meds and eventually face quitting, it does get much worse before it gets better, BUT IT DOES GET BETTER! Your body puts up a major attack when you take away its meds. As far as Lyrica, I eventually had probs with it. I actually feel that the body cannot heal while we are on such harsh chemicals. I am not trying to be harsh and believe me I do know what the pain is like, but I can tell you I went from not being able to get out of bed or a wheelchair to walking for short times and not using my wheelchair at all, in less than 5 weeks. I really hope that brings encouragement to you and strength, hang in there.
Holly
Posted by SLS on September 14, 2006, at 7:42:13
In reply to Tentative Withdrawal From Oxycodone, posted by corafree on September 8, 2006, at 6:51:48
> I say tentative, because I am not being forced to do this by anyone or myself, and because did it once b4 and pain was not tolerable.
>
> Yeah; so .. I have herniated discs in c-spine.What a pain in the neck.
(Sorry)
> I've been on oxycodone 10/650 3x a day for 2-3yrs(Began Darvocet in .. wow .. '94 or so!) and I'm using to Lyrica to try get down to 5/whatever 3x a day, and I'm surprised that 'the need for relief' you feel when a narcotic is expected and not received, IS buffered by Lyrica.
I was going to suggest Lyrica when I saw your subject line.
I'm taking Lyrica in an attempt to treat bipolar depression. I am hoping to go up to 600mg. I am only up to 150mg. 150mg is the minimum that is expected to treat pain syndromes and epilepsy.
As always, I wish you only the best. You are in a difficult situation, and you must coordinate with your doctor and navigate your withdrawal from these drugs yourself.
You might be able to cross-taper over to Darvocet and then taper that drug while continuing the Lyrica.
Good luck.
- Scott
Posted by corafree on September 18, 2006, at 16:28:20
In reply to Re: Tentative Withdrawal From Oxycodone » corafree, posted by SLS on September 14, 2006, at 7:42:13
Its Mon p.m. and just reading your posts. Somebody threw a wrench in my life(or whatever it is normal people say!) and 'my withdrawal took a backseat' this last week. I'm not yet fully recovered from the devastation.
Holly ... I too d.c.'d all meds w/ the aid of a very good detox unit, but when I went to classes and had to hold my head still for 'like an hour' I'd get terrible pain breakthrough and had to get back on the meds. I don't have a pain doc. I've seen about five of them and they just send me back to my PCP for meds. My PCP knows 'NAUGHT' about withdrawal symptom treatment. I tried to call his office a bit ago, but he won't talk to me; have to go in.
I'm having another IRL issue occurring which is causing havoc and making concentrating on caring for myself impossible.
Thanks much for sharing Holly. No surgery? I have wished for surgery, but no doc has yet said I'm a candidate. (I've been told they're waiting for it to get worse.) I don't get it Holly ... how ... RU w/ someone that can help you? I'm all for it, whatever it is you do. I'm alone, and considering what I've been through, want to remain that way for quite a while. I'd appreciate it if you'd babble me when have time. (Click on my name above)
Scott, I thought about tapering down to Darvocet too; no more doc appt way across town just to p/u written scrip, plus my body was functioning much better back when on it. Pain got worse at some point 3-4yrs back and that's when I started the oxycodone.
Re: Lyrica ... I've got 75s and 25s to 'play with' from a URO-GYN (Yeah...really; she can't do surgery until I have better colon health.) and think I'll double the 75mg tonight. I felt 'a smidge of a good mental tweak' recently; thought it might be due to the Lyrica. Initally took 75 h.s., last eve 100 h.s., but think try 150 h.s. tonight. There are five or more refills on both bottles.
URO-GYN is a very popular field of medicine right now since many baby booming women had hysterectomies or delivered large babies vaginally, and now 'need to be repaired'. I 'was repaired' once, but it failed. Anyway, she's a good doc that looks at all aspects of your health and comes up with better ideas.
I DON'T HAVE A PCP OR PAIN MANAGEMENT DOC TO TRULY CARE HOW I FEEL OR WHAT I DO ABOUT IT.
(Just wanted to throw that in here; get more sympathy or somethin' ... :{ poorme }:
Pls babble me further, if time, Holly.
tyvmuch, cf
Posted by corafree on September 18, 2006, at 21:31:30
In reply to Re: Tentative Withdrawal From Oxycodone, posted by Holly VanBen on September 12, 2006, at 15:58:49
Question Holly ..... What 'side effects' did you not like? If you had them on Neurontin, so did I, so d.c.'d that. But, Lyrica has no bad side effects; it's helping I think.
Oh, and, Wow, ... This is damn hard!
I went from my morning dose 10/650 oxycodone until right now, 7:15p. I'm feelin' awfully weird. I wonder should be inpatient w/ a clonidine patch on my arm, because I'm not following a regimen here. I'm sort of waiting 'til I feel 'the need'. I know that's not right?!
Think I should ask PCP for 5/whatever oxycodone 3x a dat for a bit .... alongside Lyrica. Then, maybe try switch to Darvocet-N-100 .... alongside Lyrica???
Appreciate suggestions.
feelinfunked, cf
Posted by corafree on September 18, 2006, at 21:35:14
In reply to Re: Tentative Withdrawal From Oxycodone » corafree, posted by SLS on September 14, 2006, at 7:42:13
Okay this is hinging on the 3-post rule, but, I think 'my idea' is exactly what Scott just said, isn't it?
Is it?
somebuttysaysomethin, cf
Posted by SLS on September 19, 2006, at 10:37:39
In reply to Re: Tentative Withdrawal From Oxycodone » SLS, posted by corafree on September 18, 2006, at 21:35:14
> Okay this is hinging on the 3-post rule, but, I think 'my idea' is exactly what Scott just said, isn't it?
>
> Is it?
>
> somebuttysaysomethin, cf
Hi CoraFree!I hope Lyrica does some wonderful things for you.
I'm sorry things are a bit difficult for you right now. Maybe they'll get back on track on track again soon.
I almost forgot I posted along this thread. Sorry.
- Scott
Posted by corafree on September 19, 2006, at 13:15:04
In reply to Re: Tentative Withdrawal From Oxycodone » corafree, posted by SLS on September 19, 2006, at 10:37:39
Scott:
Tks. I've appreciated your input.
Took 150mg Lyrica @ h.s. last eve and felt well enough to only take 1/2 my normal oxycodone dose this a.m.!
My mood is getting better and I feel more grounded. The emotional benefits of Lyrica are helping me do this withdrawal. I'm very glad you posted on the thread.
I can only tolerate Lyrica @ 25mg 2x 'during day' at this point, for lack of better word, fatigue, side effect.
If you take Lyrica 'during day', would appreciate you share 'how high daytime dosage'.
Do you not feel, for lack of better word, fatigue(?), side effect?
Holly:
RU still here? Am eager to hear more about your successful withdrawal from narcs.
bestwishes, cf
Posted by Holly VanBen on September 19, 2006, at 14:50:10
In reply to Re: Tentative Withdrawal From Oxycodone » SLS, posted by corafree on September 18, 2006, at 21:35:14
Hi Corafree,
I couldn't get the babblemail to work, it said yours was off.
Happy to talk anytime. Well as for me, this has been a long horrible road. I have had side effects to everything it seems, or had no idea what I was having side effects too since I was always on so many different drugs. Both Nuerontin and Lyrica made me feel hmm I guess the creepy crawlies and just not right wre the least severe. But I have had soo many blood, liver and health issues I think they are responsible for also. I was on lots of different kinds of Morphene and all kinds of Narcs, Vicodin, Norco many. Soma and Ativan and Xanax and anything else they thought might help. I finally just made the decision that the meds were not worth it anymore. I was still having pain probs on meds and they were constantly changeing my meds and side effects AGH! I just couldn't take it anymore, so I made the decision to stop everything. I cannot say it has been anything but miserable and I now realize just how much the meds were making things worse and preventing my body from trying to heal. I still have lots of pain and mostly confined to bed, but and its a big but, I have been out of my wheel chair and off my walker since I started detox (42 days ago) and I am more alert and better then I have been in years. I don't take anything now accept, Allegra for allergies, Protonix for stomach probs and Ambien once a night 12.5 mg (I have been unable to conquer the sleep prob, but will stop Ambien once the severe withdrawals have passed.)
Anyway as far as docs, yes they are tough to find good ones. I just kept looking for refferals and asking for help and trying new docs till I got help. I still see new docs often. I see a new pain rehab doc tommorrow actually since I am starting out patient pain rehab. Now I have seen quite a few pain docs and they can be harsh and a bit controlling. The best advice I can offer anyone is get as much information as you can before you see a doc. Look up everything on the net. Write down your questions and concerns and make sure to address each one with your doc even if they seem to be in a hurry. Speak up to your docs, tell them you need answers and if they can't give them ask for a refferal. Don't give up on your doc if you have one that knows you, just keep calling and going in and questioning and asking until they seem to push you out the door and be done with you. That has happened to me plenty also. I hate new docs but force myself. I get tired of the same old answers or non answers, but I've found the only way to really deal with my pain and illnesses is to take charge of it. I tell most of the doctors what to do now or what has and has not worked. I still ask for new answers and challenge them to find them but try not to get too dissapointed when none come.I can also tell you I would never really know what was really going on anymore if I did not get off all meds. You get to a point the meds are the only thing doing the talking and the docs know this. When they don't have an answer many of them tend to just write you off as dependant on meds and they stop helping you. I really felt the only way I was going to get anywhere was to give the med free way a shot. It has really helped and totally changed my docs attitudes towards me.
I'm sorry this is so long, but I really want to encourage you to keep trying to find a good doc no matter what. And remember meds will always be there but your bodies ability to heal will not, and the meds make this worse. I also had to taper for many months before I finally quit. But DO NOT DO that until you have a doc that knows withdrawls and can prescribe for them. Even if you feel you are dependant and not addicted (there is a difference) go to the Pills Annonymous website and see all the stories of many like us. It's a better education then anything a doc can tell you. It's free to join and annonymous. I am there every day. http://groups.msn.com/PillsAnonymousI hope this has helped and I don't come off as anti-pills, I'm really not. I just know the body cannot heal on the drugs and the docs don't bother to tell you this stuff.
Hang in there, holler anytime.
Holly
Posted by Holly VanBen on September 19, 2006, at 15:10:49
In reply to Re: Tentative Withdrawal From Oxycodone, posted by corafree on September 19, 2006, at 13:15:04
Hi Corafree again,
I had forgotten to mention that if you cannot find a doctor to help with withdrawals, there are always addictionologists. I found a refferal on my insurance website and they are everywhere. They can work with any of your docs and have the ability to prescribe for withdrawals. Not all docs can, this is very important since I learned the hard way. I asked at least 5 of my docs if they could give me something for withdrawals before I started. They all said there was nothing except one doc who said there was suboxone, but he could not prescribe it. He told me to try it on my own first and if I needed it he could refer me. That was stupid. I ended up in ER 5 days later half dead. I got lucky and got a jail house doc who gave me chlonidine and vistaril, since it was too late to start suboxone. I would never tell anyone ever to try quitting without something to help. Even in inpatient detox they wean, taper and give meds to ease side effects. Subutex and Suboxone can be dependant driven for some, so can chlonidine. I only took chlonidine once a day for 3 days before I decided it wasn't helping enough anymore. I took vistaril for a few weeks and it really helped. So whatever you do, get help to deal with withdrawals. Also I didn't learn till I stopped all meds that when you taper or change your meds you go into withdrawals, which can be bad, but you just think other health issues are the culprit. It's a tough battle to learn all this stuff, so I encourage anyone to get as much info as possible.
Holly
Posted by corafree on September 20, 2006, at 7:33:46
In reply to Re: Tentative Withdrawal From Oxycodone, posted by Holly VanBen on September 19, 2006, at 14:50:10
Oh Holly ... I 'can't' do this on my own. I'm feeling so defeated.
My PCP is, like you say, not aggressive in caring for me because he thinks 'I'm just an addict', and a colo-rectal will not help me. He rants and raves about my taking narcotics. He tells me about 'his pain and how he lives with it'. I called him yesterday for an appt to schedule a CT or a referral for a CT, and the office hasn't returned my call. I have to 'fast', because if I eat, it won't come out! Why? I think it's a mixture of the pain meds, some digestive irregularities, and a more sedentary life style I've been living now, just short of a year.
It's my C2-3, 4-5, 5-6 that are extruded, so pain explodes up into my head like a cluster or migraine headache. It hurts so bad and I don't like pain, especially when I'm alone w/ no one to say nice things like 'it will get better'. I want to do what you have done. I really do. But, I can't do it w/o any IRL support. I just can't. I'm trying, but I've had the onset of sad and lonely emotions, with this attempt to decrease or discontinue the oxycodone.
Lyrica has been good ... much better than Neurontin, for me. I first increased it yesterday, to 150mg at bedtime, and felt a little 'not myself'. But, think I can deal w/ that as have hope this side effect will subside.
Last eve and now very early this morn' the pain is just too awful. It prompts me to think 'I don't want to live like this' and scares me.
I'm a spiritual person and talk/pray for healing and helps some.
I'll print your post (name excluded of course) as reference, but think I need a good doc to care for me, or something(?), while I do this.
I'm so sorry you must be in bed so much. It must feel so unfair. I hope you have someone that loves you, there w/ you.
What is the diff' between dependent and addicted, ... really? My PCP 'pokes fun' at the idea of there being a difference. He's always politely 'scolding me' re: the narcotic. I said to him, "You should have been a preacher instead of a doctor." He seems to enjoy my appts.(?) He's good about referrals. I'm not so sure about his office staff tho'. Sometimes I wonder if they even do them, you know, w/ all the insurance hurdles. I've been to at least five pain docs and had everything you can have, short of surgery. They've all sent me back to my PCP for meds. I have knowledge of some very good pain docs, but my PCP and his staff aren't aggressive about the insurance hurdles needed to get me there. I need to tell my PCP, I'm fed up, and 'I'm worthy' of the work it takes them to get me better healthcare! I just need to be able to do it politically correct and not end up getting fired!?
I should go to the site you suggested too. That might help me to know how to demand that the doctors see me as worthy of 'saving', for God's sake! I feel like they don't care about me!
Ya' know, oxycodone, even Darvocet, change my personality. Instead of behaving like a good person would, like I used to, I'm so hardened sometimes and I think it prompts me to push people away.
Second to the pain, my worst prob' is this very bad constipation. I hadn't 'pooped' (sorry) in 7days and my stomach was stretched out and so hard, and I was miserable. Had to take '4' Dulcolax! Then I have extremely painful, but effective relief. But, and, then, it starts all over again!!!
I had a colo by the doc who treated me 'like an addict' and he wouldn't help me. A URO-GYN whom has been very helpful, postulated I may have a toxic megacolon. For this reason I desired the CT w/ contrast. But, the colo-rectal just wants me to go away ... like I'm a bad person. I got a copy of the colo report and he says in it that he'll do a CT and see me for follow-up, but doesn't respond to my messages to his PA/MA. It hurts my feelings to be judged an addict as no one but I know the pain I'm in. I'll try and call him again today.
You're so kind to share all this info w/ me. I hope my 'narcotic personality' doesn't come between us. It has negated good relations w/ family and friends at times, because of the 'hardened personality' the narcotics seem to bring out in me. I'm really a positive and loving person 'beneath those meds'; I believe anyway ... it's been so long.
I have to do something soon as I feel I'm getting close to giving up. Do you think living just a mile from my ex and having to see him, talk to him now and then, is bad for me? He broke me; I mean, he threw me against walls and did awful things to me physically. So, I have all this anger, self-pity, self-blame, and then 'so much confusion' as my three children (one is his) 'love him' despite what happened.
I 'had' (longer story) to move to this city 11mos ago. I've not been happy here. I'm in a nice condo, but it's secluded and sometimes so quiet, I think I've died. It's a 'boring atmosphere' for me. It's a city where elderly people/couples come to spend the winter. It feels like I'm literally dying here(?); like I've been put out to pasture.
I could move back to the 'busy buzzing happening city' I moved from 11mos ago. Actually, I have until the end of this month to do so w/o any hassle. (On SSD so qualify for government housing assistance.) But, I would prob' have to live in 'a not real nice place' as rents there went way up a year ago. And, being alone, I'm a little scared to live in a place where there might be bugs, drugs, and thieves.(?) Then again, it's possible I'd find a little place w/ nice neighbors and get the 'buzz of living' back. I feel I have a need to be back amidst 'the living buzz' that fed my head there. It's like ... I've accepted that I'm disabled and have pain and limitations, but as long as I could hear, feel, see .. 'people on the move' .. well it was like the best therapy. It was like I was moving too. I had hope.
I'll stop here. I'm rambling.I thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing all you have. You are an inspiration. If you'd like to be friends via email, that would be nice. I do 'push people away' w/o meaning too, tho'. I think it's because of the abuse.
love, cf
pssorry ... What does it take to be considered a surgical candidate? Do I have to get worse? Do my MRIs have to show more 'signals'? Am I being discriminated against because I am quote mentally ill unquote?
pssorrier ... This post, this description of my situation, well, right now my head feels like it's numb, and, so, I'm sorry if the above may be a total mess Holly.
Posted by SLS on September 21, 2006, at 19:21:17
In reply to Re: Tentative Withdrawal From Oxycodone » Holly VanBen, posted by corafree on September 20, 2006, at 7:33:46
Hi CF.
> Oh Holly ... I 'can't' do this on my own. I'm feeling so defeated.
I hope Holly is providing you with the support you need.
I'm sorry I haven't been of more help. I was involved with stuff on the other boards for awhile. Then, when I saw the length of your posts here, I was overwhelmed. I just can't read that much. So, I am just hoping for now that you are getting what you need from other people.
Yes, the intoxicated feeling from Lyrica usually dissipates, even at high dosages. I will be working up to 600mg over the next week. I really am not expecting much from it, though. If it hasn't helped with my reading, motivation, or libido by now, I don't think I will respond to it the way some others have. :-(
I wish I could offer you more advice regarding your withdrawal from oxycodone. I have never had to discontinue an opioid.
- Scott
Posted by corafree on September 22, 2006, at 2:01:45
In reply to Re: Tentative Withdrawal From Oxycodone » corafree, posted by SLS on September 21, 2006, at 19:21:17
Hi Scott.
Have you ever had 'a lesser dosage' of a med work better for you than 'a higher dosage'? If so, what kind, and do you know why?
Also, could a person develop 'a high tolerance' to all medication in general? If so, would a different way of administration be helpful?
I was taking Lyrica 75mg h.s. & 'feeling emotionally good' plus 'not desperately craving 2nd daily dose oxycodone'. When increased to 150mg h.s. tho', felt uncomfortable emotionally and physically.
(That's when I wrote the, too long, rambling, freakin' life story of a post! OMG, that was ridiculous! Poor Holly. Sorry Holly! My posts aren't always like that. Don't blame U for not reading S. Don't be scared Holly to write to me Holly; I won't do it again.)
I'll give Lyrica dosage increase another shot when not on stress overload.
One more query S. Valium pulled me out of that nervous breakdown last year. Do you think I'll always need a long-acting benzo? I ask because I'd switched to Xanax and a week ago had the onset of the same symptoms which preceded the NB, but it was alongside a stress overload. Luckily had Valium and pulled up and am leveling out!
I'm thinking the hospital docs might have told me what to expect after having that NB. Tho', these are the same two docs that looked at each other and chuckled when I asked them, "Exactly what is a nervous breakdown?"
I better do some googling.
I see my P next Fri. Hope will work w/ me using 'both benzos', as over the past year on Valium alone, was becoming so sedentary and napping all the time.
nite, cf
Posted by SLS on September 22, 2006, at 8:32:44
In reply to Need Benzo Stabilization B4 Attempt Narc Withdraw, posted by corafree on September 22, 2006, at 2:01:45
Hi CF.
> Have you ever had 'a lesser dosage' of a med work better for you than 'a higher dosage'? If so, what kind, and do you know why?Yes. Nortriptyline is known to have what is known as a "therapeutic window", which is a narrow range of dosages that a drug is effective. Too low or too high, and it doesn't work. I don't think anyone knows why.
> Also, could a person develop 'a high tolerance' to all medication in general? If so, would a different way of administration be helpful?I think people can become "cross-tolerant" to medications of a class in which all of the drugs work the same way. However, there are many examples of people failing to respond to one SSRI and going on to respond to another. Sometimes, you can recapture a drug response by discontinuing it and waiting some length of time and restarting it. Another option is to augment the drug with another drug.
> I was taking Lyrica 75mg h.s. & 'feeling emotionally good' plus 'not desperately craving 2nd daily dose oxycodone'. When increased to 150mg h.s. tho', felt uncomfortable emotionally and physically.
Ok.
> (That's when I wrote the, too long, rambling, freakin' life story of a post! OMG, that was ridiculous! Poor Holly. Sorry Holly! My posts aren't always like that. Don't blame U for not reading S. Don't be scared Holly to write to me Holly; I won't do it again.)
Please don't apologize for the length of your post. Just because I have difficulties reading due to my illness shouldn't cause you to change your posting behavior.
> I'll give Lyrica dosage increase another shot when not on stress overload.
I'm planning to move up to 600mg at some point. I just started 450mg.
I wonder if you could cross over to buprenorphine and then taper that. This is an effective treatment for heroin addiction.
- Scott
Posted by corafree on September 22, 2006, at 11:55:28
In reply to Re: Need Benzo Stabilization B4 Attempt Narc Withd » corafree, posted by SLS on September 22, 2006, at 8:32:44
Scott: I just looked up buprenorphine and thought to myself, what is this and why has my doctor never told me about it? Well maybe it's because he's just a PCP. If I could manage to get myself involved in the ACPA here, I would probably have known of this, and have found a doctor 'by now', a pain doctor, that would help me. It's going on 10yrs and I don't know why I'm satisfied w/ the healthcare I haven't found or gotten. I had breakthrough pain the other morn' and called to make appt w/ PCP as my scrip is about to end, but also asked for a call-in of Vicodin, since they wouldn't see me until next week, and I'm going to run out of oxycodone Sat. I was confused and pi*sed and curious when I picked up the 5/500 tabs last eve. I've always gotten the 10s, especially for breakthrough. PCP is 'playing w/ me' or made an error, but somehow don't think it's the latter. And, Vicodin 10, has never really been an 'effective breakthrough med' for oxycodone, but I've 'just taken what I could get w/o a lot of hassle', being it's just me and a primary care physican. I just wrote 'buprenorphine' on a little piece of paper, to add to the big stack of little pieces of paper, to continue this search. I mean, I'll ask my PCP what he knows about it.
sincerely, cf
Posted by Holly VanBen on September 22, 2006, at 14:47:26
In reply to Re: Need Benzo Stabilization B4 Attempt Narc Withd, posted by corafree on September 22, 2006, at 11:55:28
Ok where to begin. I think first I should tell you never to apologize for length of your post. I completely commiserate and understand and feel all your pain. The more you write the more I can get to know you so no problem at all. Second, you may e-mail me anytime I am better at getting my a-mails every day. [email protected]
Ok I'm also going to give you a few sites that I think you will find immensely helpful.Pills Annonymous
http://groups.msn.com/PillsAnonymous/general
All kinds of info on chronic pain, very credibile.
http://www.psychnet-uk.com/clinical_psychology/clinical_psychology_pain_management.htm
Just cut and paste them into your browser they work great.
OK I'm going to post another now so it won't be so overwhelming.
Holly
Posted by Holly VanBen on September 22, 2006, at 14:59:24
In reply to Re: Tentative Withdrawal From Oxycodone » Holly VanBen, posted by corafree on September 20, 2006, at 7:33:46
Hi cora,
OK this is alot of info and it is not mine. I pulled it right off the PA website. It answers many of your questions. Particularly dependance versus addiction, tolerance, withdrawals and help. Please at least skim through it, it should help alot.
Accidentally Addicted?Donna, a 34 year old lawyer suffered from extreme anxiety, coupled with panic attacks. She sought the help of a psychiatrist who put her on Xanax. It helped with the symptoms for a little over a year. She then noticed she was beginning to feel more and more anxious in between doses. In addition, the dose she was taking barely helped anymore. She reported this to her psychiatrist and he responded by increasing her dosage. In less than three years, he had increased the dose to five times the amount she was first prescribed.
She was honest with her psychiatrist and he increased the dose to what she said she needed. She had convinced herself that prescription drugs were safe. She rationalized this by saying to herself, “if her psychiatrist prescribed them, they must be okay. And besides, a reputable drug company developed the pills in a nice clean laboratory, so how could they be dangerous?”
She began to feel increasingly depressed. She dreaded leaving the house. Her panic attacks increased in frequency whenever she did venture out. She did not want to see her friends. She did not answer the phone. Her world was becoming smaller and smaller.
Donna called her doctor and told him she wanted to get off the pills. He suggested a slow tapering off process and they decided that her partner, Beth, would give her the agreed upon dose each day.
She really wanted the tapering off to work, but she began to feel sick in between doses. She tried to follow the schedule, but she couldn’t tolerate the withdrawal symptoms. She would wait until Beth left for work in the morning and then tear the house apart looking for the pills. When she found them, she “stole” a few and put the vial back where Beth hid it. She pretended to continue the agreed upon tapering off process.
Donna panicked when she realized she was taking more than twice the amount she was supposed to take. Feeling like a failure and filled with shame, she did not tell her doctor. She went to another psychiatrist to get another prescription. Her partner begged her to get help. Donna didn’t feel that she could live without her pills. Her life had become completely controlled by Xanax. She would panic when she was beginning to run out.
Donna’s world was now focused on conning, getting, and taking the pills. She would count them over and over again when she picked up a new prescription. One night, several months later, Beth found Donna unconscious on the floor by the bed. She was rushed to the emergency room. When she regained consciousness, the resident informed her that the Xanax had become toxic in her bloodstream and that she would not have lived more than two weeks had she continued taking them. She had no choice but to stop. She was medically detoxed in the hospital and sent to a treatment facility to continue the process and begin to learn to live drug-free.
What leads a person to become addicted to prescription drugs?
Prescription drug addiction is no different from alcoholism or an addiction to any other substance. However, no one is prescribed alcohol or cocaine for medical reasons. People who suffer from chronic pain are in a very difficult position. Painkillers do relieve pain. For people who suffer from constant and chronic pain, narcotics may be necessary to allow them to have any quality of life. The downside is becoming physically dependent and risking the possibility of addiction.
While it is true that the drugs themselves are highly addictive, not everyone who takes painkillers becomes an addict. The statistics of those suffering from chronic pain who become addicted to these drugs are actually pretty low according to the Chronic Pain Advocacy League, a grass roots organization dedicated to helping those who suffer the debilitating effects of chronic pain. However, this is not to say that those who suffer with chronic pain are not at increased risk of prescription drug addiction.
According to the Journal of the American Medical Association, the area of pain and chemical dependency has become an increasingly important issue. Although chronic pain affects over 45 million Americans--more than either cancer or heart disease--treatment is a low priority in the current health care system (Chronic Pain Advocacy League).
A recent survey by the National Institute on Drug Abuse at Columbia University indicated that approximately 50% of primary care physicians have difficulty speaking with their patients about substance abuse (FDA Consumer Magazine, Sept.- Oct., 2001).
Tolerance
Drug tolerance is basically the body's ability to adapt to the presence of a drug. When narcotic substances are taken regularly for a length of time, the body does not respond to them as well. Tolerance then becomes defined as a state of progressively decreased responsiveness to a drug as a result of which a larger dose of the drug is needed to achieve the effect originally obtained by a smaller dose.
Dependence or Addiction
There is a difference between dependence and addiction. Dependence occurs when tolerance builds up and the body needs the drug in order to function. Withdrawal symptoms will begin if the drug is stopped abruptly. On the other hand, when a person is dependent on the regular use of a drug to satisfy physical, emotional, and psychological needs, they are addicted to that substance. Physical dependence exists as well, but the drug has become a way to cope with all kinds of uncomfortable feelings.
Many prescription drug addicts do begin by needing the drug they are prescribed for medical reasons. Somewhere along the line, however, the drug begins to take over their lives and becomes more important than anything else. Nothing will stop them from getting their drug of choice.
It may be difficult to understand how someone could let this happen. How could someone who is reasonably intelligent and sophisticated in regards to drug addiction become an addict? Addiction has nothing to do with intelligence. And addiction to prescription drugs is no different than any other substance abuse problem. Many people in the medical profession abuse prescription drugs. Health care providers may have a slightly higher rate of addiction due to both the stressful nature of the work and their relatively easy access to supplies of narcotics. Clearly, the potential risks and dangers involved with taking narcotics are not unknown among health care providers. This, however, doesn’t stop someone from becoming an addict. Some 12-step members have described addiction as a disease of the emotions.
Addictive Behaviors
Along with addiction, there are addictive behaviors that are quite common among addicts. Lying, keeping secrets, hiding pills and obsessively counting them, making unnecessary emergency room visits and constantly "doctor shopping." As the addiction escalates, engaging in such illegal activities as stealing prescription pads, committing forgery, and buying drugs off the street is also quite common behavior.
These behaviors usually stem from the desperation an addict feels regarding getting, securing, and taking their drug of choice. Under other circumstances, the individual would probably not engage in the behaviors listed above, unless they were previously part of his/her personality structure. In other words, addictive behaviors are limited to the addiction itself and are generally dissonant with the person’s beliefs and values in any other area of their life.
Shame and Guilt
Both shame and guilt are feelings that are very common to the experience of addiction. No one wants to be a drug addict. There is tremendous shame in having your life ruled by a vial of pills. There may also be a tremendous amount of shame and guilt about the type of behaviors you can become capable of engaging in to get drugs. The way one behaves on pills--falling down, slurring one’s words, blackouts--are all shameful experiences.
A person whose become addicted to prescription drugs may feel guilty about the way they have treated others, particularly those closest to them. There’s a great deal of guilt associated with lying and betraying the people they love.
Neither shame or guilt is conducive to getting the help that is needed. In fact, these feelings can be quite destructive. Shame can prevent you from getting treatment. Guilt can lead to all kinds of self-destructive behaviors that will interfere with sobriety. Bottom line: shame and guilt lower self-esteem and foster self-hatred.
Getting Help
There are many treatment facilities located throughout the country. Many insurance plans cover inpatient detox. Some insurance companies will pay for a week, maybe two. Some may pay for rehab as well. It’s important to get help and not to try to get off pills on your own. Some people may feel that they can’t afford to take a week or two out of their lives to spend in a treatment facility, detoxing. The demands of children, a job, school, or other responsibilities may make inpatient treatment seem like a luxury. It is not. It is unquestionably better to leave the routine responsibilities of your life for a week than it is to suffer the inevitable outcome of prolonged drug addiction.
Withdrawal
When an individual becomes physically dependent on painkillers or benzodiazepines, they should not just suddenly stop taking them. Stopping suddenly can cause seizures and possibly even death. The risk of a seizure is actually quite high. Dependency might be dealt with by tapering off the medication. Some people have been successful using this approach. Addicts have often found tapering to be unsuccessful because their addiction is both physical as well as psychological. If tapering is done inpatient, it has more of a chance of success.
Withdrawal symptoms can be, and often are, difficult. Benzodiazepines, for example, are stored in the tissues and fat cells. Getting the drug out of your bloodstream can take a long time. Drugs that go through the digestive tract are more quickly excreted.
Even when someone detoxes inpatient, the symptoms often feel unbearable. While the acute withdrawal symptoms generally last a couple of weeks, the prolonged withdrawal, called Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome (PAWS) lingers. These symptoms have been known to last a year or longer.
In addition, the person who suffers from chronic pain may initially be in more pain than they were before they began to take painkillers. Painkillers and benzodiazapines repress the body’s natural production of dopamine and endorphins (the “pleasure center of the brain”) and take over their function. After the drug is detoxed, it takes some time before the body’s natural pain receptors “wake up” and begin to function normally again.
What other options does someone who suffers from chronic pain have? After becoming drug-free, this issue still needs to be addressed. Some people believe that they can never take prescription narcotics again and need to remain abstinent for life. Other methods of pain relief like meditation, breathing exercises, yoga, or biofeedback may provide some relief. For recovering addicts who need to be on narcotic painkillers, having someone else responsible for the medication may be a good idea.
How do you know when someone needs treatment?
If you are unsure whether you or someone you know has a problem with prescription drugs, here are 20 questions that can help you become clearer about whether or not you’d benefit from help:
1. Has your doctor, spouse or anyone else expressed concern about your use of medications?
2. Have you ever decided to stop taking pills only to find yourself taking them again contrary to your previous decision?
3. Have you ever felt remorse or concern about taking pills?
4. Has your efficiency or ambition decreased since taking pills?
5. Have you established a supply for purse or pocket or to hide away in case of emergency?
6. Have you ever been treated by a physician or hospital for excessive use of pills (whether or not in combination with other substances)?
7. Have you changed doctors or drug stores for the purpose of maintaining your supply?
8. Have you received the same pill from two or more physicians or druggists at approximately the same time?
9. Have you ever been turned down for a refill?
10. Have you taken the same mind- or mood-affecting medication for over a year only to find you still have the same symptoms?
11. Have you ever informed your physician as to which pill works best at
which dosage and had him adjust the prescription to your recommendations?12. Have you used a tranquilizer or a sleep medication for a period of months or years with no improvement in the problem?
13. Have you increased the dosage, strength or frequency of your medication over the past months or years?
14. Is your medication quite important to you; e.g., do you worry about refills long before running out?
15. Do you become annoyed or uncomfortable when others talk about your use of medications?
16. Have you or anyone else noticed a change of personality when you take your medication, or when you stop taking it?
17. Have you ever taken your medication before you had the associated symptom?
18. Have you ever been embarrassed by your behavior when under the influence of your prescription drug?
19. Do you ever sneak or hide your pills?
20. Do you find it impossible to stop or to go for a prolonged period without your pills?
(Reprinted and slightly adapted from "There's More to Quitting Drinking than Quitting Drinking" by Dr. Paul O.)
If you have answered YES to three or more or these questions, you may be at serious risk of having a problem. The good news is that treatment is available.
Treatment
There are many avenues for treatment. Inpatient treatment, under complete medical supervision is a safe and effective way to detox. This will cut down the risk of seizures and other health-related concerns.
Outpatient group therapy can be an effective way to transition back to a sober life.Individual psychotherapy can be very helpful in dealing with all of the feelings involved in letting go of prescription drugs, not to mention discovering what led one to become addicted to them in the first place.
Conclusion
Not everyone succinctly stops using drugs, gets clean, and begins recovery. Getting past the denial and resistance common to most addicts is difficult. Some people need to "hit bottom" before they are willing to quit. Others may be more fortunate and embrace recovery before losing everything and everyone in their lives. Unfortunately, there are still many addicts that never make it back and die before they can ever get help.
Posted by corafree on September 22, 2006, at 15:15:24
In reply to Oh My Gosh Cora, sorry I missed you for a few days, posted by Holly VanBen on September 22, 2006, at 14:47:26
That's okay, I've been missing myself for a few days too. :{
Tks 4 info ... printing for reference.
love, cf
Posted by corafree on September 22, 2006, at 15:26:08
In reply to Cora part 2, posted by Holly VanBen on September 22, 2006, at 14:59:24
Whoa Nellie, I mean, 'Holly'!
Think I'll save this as not enough ink in cartridge. A lot to mull over. Tks so very much. Not feelin' 2well 2post much right now hon'. Try email u when feeling butt'er!
love, cf
ps: I have this thing about saying 'butt' ;{
Posted by Holly VanBen on September 22, 2006, at 15:28:29
In reply to Re: Tentative Withdrawal From Oxycodone » Holly VanBen, posted by corafree on September 20, 2006, at 7:33:46
Hi again,
OK you can do this. It is the hardest thing ever and you may feel like dieing would be prefered, BUT IT DOES GET BETTER. People told me this for days and I didn't know if they were right, but they were. 44 Days and it's not anything like the first 3 weeks.
I can totally relate to your prbs with your PCP. I had a terrible PCP that sounds just like yours for the first 2 years. I finally broke and it was the best thing I ever did. Unfortunately this is a learn as you go thing, but take conficence from those who have already been there. You have to stand up to your doc. You MUST demand the help you NEED. Do not take no for an answer, do not take what your doc says at face value if you question it at all. Do NOT let your doc belittle you or make you feel like an addict. It doesn't matter whether your an addict or not, you still have pain and you are not nearly alone in the millions that are chemically addicted to pain meds due to medical problems. It is cruel and ignorant to treat you less then you deserve. You are the boss, your insurance may pay, but you have paid or do pay for your insurance. Your insurance trusts you to handle the sub-contractor(docs) since they cannot do it for you. They can only refer. Remember docs are only practicing medicine. Operative word is practicing. Demand your rights as a patient and a human being. I let my PCP hinder and harm me physically but mostly emotionally for 2 years. I would leave her office in tears and feel horrible for days. When you are sick you trust a doctor to help you, it is a horrible breach for a doc to misuse that trust. I'm behind you Cora, sick em.
I also have developed horrible stomack probs while on meds. I agree I think the meds are the main culperate and I have a very good Gastrointerologist who agrees, but that doesn't cure the prob. There is hope though. Iv'e been on all kinds of stomach meds for 5 years now and still need some exploratory proceedures for the back door I have been putting off. Now the good news is this.
I'm going to get graphic here so anyone reading this who wants to just skip this part.
When I was on pain meds I had the exact probs, not going for weeks sometimes, stomach like a rock, horrible pain, then laxatives and then start all over again. But now that I have quit the meds things have changed dramatically. Now the first 2 weeks I had the most horrible abdominal pain and diahrea and vomiting you could imagine. Went to ER on day 5 completely dehydrated and miserable. They gave me suppositories and IVs and other meds that finally helped. But it has come back for a period of 5 days twice now since then. It's part of withdrawals and it's ugly, any change in health or meds sets it off. OK finally the good news. Since detoxing when I do have a BM normally its huge and everyday. I've read other people's stories that say this about using colon cleanse products, but I need to tell you DO NOT use anything like this when detoxing, it dumps huge amounts of chemicals into your system and can cause permanent damage. Even the info on cleansing products warns of this. And NEVER take and cleansing product while on meds because the reaction can be more severe.
All mind altering chemicals do just what they suggest. They alter your mind by altering your chemicals to your brain. Everything your going through is a result of this. Even when if you stop it takes an unknown amout of time for your brain and body to rid itself of these chemicals and begin to produce them normally again. It does happen though. I am walking proof. In 44 days I am not even the same person anymore. I couldn't even focus to read and I love to read. I couldn't focus to watch TV, I stared at walls alot. All that is gone now. I can read a book in a few hours, watch as much TV as I like and best of all I can relate to people again.
Isolating is horrible for anyone but particularly bad for those with medical probs. Some of it is necassary, but do whatever you can to get support. Even if it is just here. I understand the pain of feeling like your all alone and in the middle of no where. Just to watch people would be nice, right? I suggest you start some support groups if you can. Even if just to go and get phone numbers so you can talk to someone when you need to. Pills Annonymous, Narcotics Annonymous (although that crowd can be rough), AL-Anon is great, CODA is great and try to join a church group (womens fellowship or home fellowship) near you. Anything you can, but just keep reaching out.
Lastly, surgery is not a very good option for anyone with pain probs. My feeling is unless it is life threateningly necassary or non invasive in the extreme it causes more harm then good. There are soooo many people like myself here to tell you surgery just added to the pain and didn't fix the problem. Try everything else FIRST, surgery is not a quick fix and is never the best option in pain situations. The original pain usually remains plus the new probs from surgery.
Whew I think that covers everything. E-mail me and let me know how you are.
HUGS Holly
Posted by Holly VanBen on September 26, 2006, at 13:41:13
In reply to Cora Part 3 The Final Chapter LOL, posted by Holly VanBen on September 22, 2006, at 15:28:29
Hi Cora,
I've been checking back to see how you are but haven't seen you for days. I hope you are ok. Please let me know.
Holly
Posted by corafree on September 28, 2006, at 21:49:37
In reply to Cora where are you?, posted by Holly VanBen on September 26, 2006, at 13:41:13
So sorry Holly. I'm 'as here' as here as can be.
My computer is in need of repair and I'm having trouble downloading mail from server.
Withdrawing from hydrocodone as I was, taking half of prior regimen, was causing a particularly awful side effect ... bowels had pretty much shut down. I've been miserable.
(It's been a year since I began Valium after a NB, so that's prob' a contributing factor as well. But, I don't think this is negotiable. See my P tomorrow and will discuss.)
I saw PCP yesterday, expressed how this 'doing it on my own' 'withdrawal' was actually causing my insides to 'freak out'.
Anyway, on 'my list to discuss w/ PCP', I'd written 1) hydrocodone 7.5/500 (This would be instead of one-half of the 10/650s. This would be a 1/3 cut, instead of a 1/2, I believe.), 2) Referral to Pain Mngt (I need expertise in doing this.), and 3) Zelnorm.
I realize Zelnorm may have side effects; need wait and see 4 myself. If anyone knows downside of Zelnorm, I'd sincerely appreciate finding it out on my own, as in my current state, the power of suggestion would be too strong. I'll be sure bring up intolerable side effects if arise. I'm always good at that! Tks Holly and friends.
Thank you Holly for thinking of me. Sorry to have worried U.
I've just been very physically ill. I had a colo and then yesterday a CT abd/pelv w/ contrast to be sure nothing else is going on. Also will get blood tests. Celiac is checked, and am considering asking PCP to add pseudo-Cushings to the sheet B4 going.
Since my move a year ago, my diet has deteriorated. My lifestyle has become more sedentary. All precursors to 'shutdown'.
PCP wrote the referral (Couldn't believe I found a pain doc on my insurance I hadn't already been to!), and the two scrips.
Went to pharmacy out here in Dysfunction Junction and they messed up all my scrips (What a nightmare this place is!), so came home today w/o 2 of the 3 scrips.
There is a 'bad IRL family situation' occurring concurrently w/ all this.
I find myself feeling so guilty for being ill while someone I love is needing me. I can be of no help to them in my condition. I hate this. It feels selfish. I feel inept. I've got a strong passionate personality and 'this incapacitation is unacceptable'. I don't know how 'superman' ever got through all those yrs as he did. I guess it must have been the love of his wife. I wish I had a love to love and to love me.
But, I have you, and others here, and that's what keeps me going.
sincerely, cf
Posted by hollyvanben on October 2, 2006, at 18:15:39
In reply to Re: Cora where are you? » Holly VanBen, posted by corafree on September 28, 2006, at 21:49:37
Hey Cora,
I'm so glad to see your back. I think its huge to get a referal for pain management, they can really help, just make sure they aren't too controlling and have compassion. Pain docs seem to be a bit on the severe side. I'm sorry bout the insides going to pot. I have the same prob so I completely understand. Mine turned to mush 2 days ago for the 5th time in withdrawals. I used to have the problem of severe constipation on the meds now I think this may be worse, but it's all bad I do know that much. All I know for now is my insides seem to be trying to put themselves back together after the meds. Everytime I have pain or feel bad they seem to go nuts again. I've lost 34 pounds now since 50 something days but it's stopped for now. Not that i couldn't lose the weight but ugh.
Hqang in there with your family. So far everyone including myself I see go thru withdrawals goes through major family crisis. I figure they waited to get it all out on us when we quit LOL.
Hope your pute keeps working. Hang in there I'm rooting for you and thinking of you.
HOlly
Posted by corafree on October 3, 2006, at 13:09:35
In reply to Re: Cora where are you?, posted by hollyvanben on October 2, 2006, at 18:15:39
I was 'in the bathroom AGAIN'! UR soo right about these 'inside' probs. I don't need a whole house. I just need a freakin' bathroom w/ a phone, TV, and pute! (Maybe a window)
Sometimes I think I felt better when on high dose pain med, and constipated.
I need call that doc today w/ my referral info.
Yep, butt not feelin' 2well.
Ya' know that Beatles' song, or maybe it's just Paul M., but it goes ...
Woke up this morning
Fell out of bed
Ran a comb across my head (etc etc)Well, this mornin', I'm singin' the same tune butt w/ diff' words, as follows:
Woke up this morning
Almost sh*t the bed
Ran 'a scootin' to the headkindafunE4feelNsosh*tE, cf
This is the end of the thread.
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