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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by alexandra_k on October 13, 2005, at 21:06:14
In reply to Need to understand triggers and suicide, posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 20:42:10
i can only answer for me...
> Why is suicide such a trigger for people?
here is part of my answer:
> I understand about using descriptions of cutting as triggering. They "trigger" people into cutting etc. I don't get it for suicide though.
well... i do. hearing other peoples ideation can trigger off my own. most especially... if i am thinking about it a bit at any rate... then hearing another persons ideation can make my own ideation worse as i internalise (and agree with) their own feeling of despair etc.
> Talking about suicide doesn't trigger me into suicide. Does it trigger you into thinking about committing suicide?
looking at those suicide websites you used to look at... didn't reading what other people had to say about it get you contemplating it more for yourself? make it start to look like more of an option. or more like the only option? or like more of a socially acceptable option?
>I don't understand why people get so upset over this. It is *I* who will die, not *you*.
okay so... think... how would you feel if i killed myself? I'm not going to. but... how would you feel if i died? upset at all?
> I also really really don't understand why people who have lost loved ones to suicide are especially sensitive to suicide triggers.
because it gets them thinking about the person they have lost.
because they may have needed that person and now they are gone.
and anger and frustration and maybe even guilt that they couldn't / didn't do anything to prevent it.
lots of people blame themselves / feel guilty when someone they know kills themselves. they blame themself for not having noticed and not having been able to prevent it and not interveaning in some way.
it brings all that up for them...they become focused on their own distress...
and so i guess... that for people who have lost someone... most often times that becomes a source of trauma for them. and hearing someone else talk about it... can trigger their trauma. and also... when people are distressed themselves most often they lose the ability to focus on another and assist them. so people who have lost someone... are probably more likely to be triggered and are also probably less likely to be able to help you.> Is there something wrong with me if I don't understand the seriousness of suicide?
i never used to get it.
i think you will one day.> Is it bad of me to think about it now?
no.
but i most certainly hope you never do it.
because... i would miss you.
and because it would be a damned shame
a damned waste
because you have a promising future
you are capable of happiness
and you are capable of helping others feel happy
and if you remove yourself from this world then other people miss out on you and your uniqueness and what you have to offer
and its a horrible waste
:-(> Why is it so taboo?
because most people are afraid of death on some level. afraid that someone they love / need will die / leave them. and / or afraid of their own death.
Posted by Angela2 on October 13, 2005, at 21:20:18
In reply to Need to understand triggers and suicide, posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 20:42:10
If I lost someone I really loved to suicide it would be really hard and upsetting for me to read suicide posts.
Posted by Nickengland on October 13, 2005, at 21:20:37
In reply to Need to understand triggers and suicide, posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 20:42:10
Hi Deneb
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20050909/msgs/554042.html
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 21:43:33
In reply to Re: Need to understand triggers and suicide » Deneb, posted by Nickengland on October 13, 2005, at 21:20:37
I'm not joking about suicide Nickengland, I'm not sure how that relates to what I'm asking about now.
Sometimes when I joke about suicide, I'm actually thinking about it a lot in a sort of serious way. Would people prefer that I say that I want to kill myself??
I *like* thinking about suicide. I still *like* to read posts in certain unspeakable newsgroups. I've gotten out of the habit of doing so, but I can still see myself wanting to read them.
When I feel like I don't belong here, I go to that newsgroup. I feel like I always belong there. People there don't judge me for wanting to kill myself. They support my decision.
I would like to buy a certain something so that I know I can escape life if worst comes to worst and I can't handle things. It *comforts* me.
I don't know how I would feel if someone here were to die. I've never really experienced losing someone before. I think I'll be upset.
Argh, am I thinking straight? I find myself getting a little angry because it feels like people are saying it is not OK for me to kill myself. I feel like saying, "I'll kill myself if I want to!" I want to show people I can do it, that I'm not kidding.
I hate my life. I can never escape this. I'm going to kill myself one day, I just know it. I can't handle life. I'm not prepared for life. I don't want to live my life. I don't care anymore. Kill me people, kill me!
Posted by alexandra_k on October 13, 2005, at 22:04:52
In reply to Frustrated ********Trigger*************, posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 21:43:33
> I *like* thinking about suicide. I still *like* to read posts in certain unspeakable newsgroups. I've gotten out of the habit of doing so, but I can still see myself wanting to read them.
i wonder why?
here might be the answer:
> When I feel like I don't belong here, I go to that newsgroup. I feel like I always belong there.i think what you might be looking for...
is people to validate that when things are really very hard for you THINGS ARE REALLY VERY HARD. and that at those times it is UNDERSTANDABLE that you would want to DO ANYTHING TO MAKE IT STOP and that suicide is supposed to be a way where it stops. all those bad feelings. i don't think you want to die... i think what you want most is to feel accepted and happy but sometimes you don't feel that way... and you start thinking that suicide is better than life. And... i think it is better than pain and the way things are when things are horrible. if life was like that all the time i understand why someone would kill themself.but...
in your case. things are not always like that. you do have the capacity to feel happy and enjoy others company and feel a sense of connection with them. and i think... that is what you most want.
and suicide rules that out.
you don't have the pain
but you don't have the happiness either.> People there don't judge me for wanting to kill myself. They support my decision.
i don't judge you.
i feel like i want to kill myself a lot too...
but i DO NOT support your decision. because i believe in you and i believe you are capable of having a life worth living. a life where you are happy and a life where you help other people to be happy too.
and if people support your decision...
if they know how you go up and down and they still support your decision...
then they aren't your friends deneb.
because your friends would want you to be happy...
not dead.
> I would like to buy a certain something so that I know I can escape life if worst comes to worst and I can't handle things. It *comforts* me.i think there are other ways...
other things you can do to remind yourself that you CAN handle things. other things you can do to comfort yourself.
> Argh, am I thinking straight? I find myself getting a little angry because it feels like people are saying it is not OK for me to kill myself. I feel like saying, "I'll kill myself if I want to!" I want to show people I can do it, that I'm not kidding.i know you aren't kidding.
i know you will kill yourself if you want to...
but what i'm afraid of is that you will kill yourself because you believe it is the only way to stop your pain...
when i really do also believe that your pain will pass and then you will be happy to be alive again.
i want to help you get through
i want to see you build a life worth living
i don't want you to have these horrible episodes anymore where things don't seem worth iti know you just want it to stop
(((((Deneb)))))
> I hate my life. I can never escape this.
it passes.. really. it does pass. you need to believe that and have a little faith. it has always passed before. always. have faith that it will pass this time too....
Posted by alexandra_k on October 13, 2005, at 22:11:38
In reply to Re: Frustrated ********Trigger*************, posted by alexandra_k on October 13, 2005, at 22:04:52
i have to go...
come babble with me tomorrow?
please.
Posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 22:17:12
In reply to Re: Frustrated ********Trigger*************, posted by alexandra_k on October 13, 2005, at 22:04:52
I'm sorry
(((((((((((Alexandra))))))))))))))
I didn't mean to get angry. I just got sort of angry.
I'm just frustrated and sad right now.
I believe that you understand my pain. I believe you.
My brain's not functioning properly right now. I'm sorry if I don't make much logical sense. I know I don't make sense. My emotions are doing the thinking right now.
What you say is right Alexandra. I will believe you.
I know it will pass. It will pass. I hope it goes away soon. I'm gonna wake up with swollen eyes tomorrow.
Posted by Emily Elizabeth on October 13, 2005, at 22:21:24
In reply to Frustrated ********Trigger*************, posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 21:43:33
Deneb,
I think that you got some good answers about your post. I want to address something else:
It is absolutely essential that you get regular (at least weekly) therapy. Brief pdoc appts every few weeks are not enough. I know you had some difficulty getting a counselor at the counseling ctr, but you need to make this happen. Perhaps they will take you now that you are on meds. Your pdoc can probably help you match up w/ someone. You should ask abt DBT.
You are very unhappy. You need to do something abt it.
Please respond to this post. I try to be helpful, but you rarely respond to my posts. I don't know if you don't like what I have to say...?
Best,
EE
Posted by crazy teresa on October 13, 2005, at 22:26:38
In reply to Need to understand triggers and suicide, posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 20:42:10
Try reading this thread, it might help you understand.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20051008/msgs/566169.htmlJust for sh*ts and giggles, let's put the shoe on the other foot for a while, shall we?
How would you feel if your mother killed herself? Would you like to walk into the house and find her dead body? Would you like to have to clean up the mess that came from the struggle of her body fighting for its life? Would you like to cut the rope her body was hanging from and hear the thump of it falling to the floor? To see her in a lifeless heap of rotting death, with her blue face and purple bloated tounge reaching out to you?
Would you like to have to deal with planning her funeral? Figuring out what to dress her in? Figuring out how to cover the bruises around her neck where the rope was? Having to look at her disfigured face while she was lying in a coffin? Figuring out out how to pay for this very big unexpected expense?
Would you like to have to tell people for the rest of your life that your mother killed herself? Would you like to wonder for the rest of your life if there was something else you could have done to have helped her? Would you enjoy her selfishness if she did all of this TO YOU?
I don't think you would, Deneb. And I'm sure your mother wouldn't enjoy doing all of those things either. And to some extent, all of us at babble would have to deal with some of the same feelings if you killed yourself.
What I don't understand it why you insist on threatening suicide every other week.
Posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 22:29:56
In reply to Re: Frustrated ********Trigger*************, posted by Emily Elizabeth on October 13, 2005, at 22:21:24
Hi Emily
Sorry I didn't respond before. Sometimes I write a general response to everyone.
I think I need help too. I'm pretty messed up. I see my p-doc every 2 weeks, but he doesn't teach me things. He doesn't really talk much. I will try to remember to ask.
Thanks Emily Elizabeth
Deneb
Posted by crazy teresa on October 13, 2005, at 22:32:41
In reply to Frustrated ********Trigger*************, posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 21:43:33
> I find myself getting a little angry because it feels like people are saying it is not OK for me to kill myself. I feel like saying, "I'll kill myself if I want to!" I want to show people I can do it, that I'm not kidding.
This is something a young child would say because she didn't get her way. I don't think you want to die, you're throwing a temper tantraum!
Posted by Nickengland on October 13, 2005, at 22:33:21
In reply to Frustrated ********Trigger*************, posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 21:43:33
Hi Deneb
Its the middle of the night here in England so you'll have to excuse me if I dont make much sense, i've just woken up as im having some trouble sleeping...
>I'm not joking about suicide Nickengland, I'm not sure how that relates to what I'm asking about now.
Your subject title said:
Need to understand suicide and triggers
In the link I provided it says
>I think that I "get" why people were so upset at what I wrote.
I thought there was a relation somewhere.
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by rainbowbrite on October 13, 2005, at 22:38:06
In reply to Need to understand triggers and suicide, posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 20:42:10
>>Why do many get angry? I really don't get this.
I can't answer this. But, IMO anger is the wrong word. I think it hits people really hard in a sore spot. can you really not understand this? Im sorry if I sound insensitive but I feel like you have had so many explanations given to you. I give up, Im tired and I feel I already gave you an explanation as well.
It was just a favor, just a friendly request for a trigger without making a big deal of it. Or maybe I'm being selfish or maybe Im being too sensitive or maybe Im too vulnerable. Sorry. Im out of here for now so dont worry about it.Deneb, it feels awful when you are triggered..maybe that helps to understand.
Posted by justyourlaugh on October 13, 2005, at 22:48:02
In reply to Need to understand triggers and suicide, posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 20:42:10
i stood in a room filled with people living with cancer.others that lost..
i asked..."i have cancer..i am in pain..i hurt..i struggle..and i can not understand why you do?".. i was pushed to the white brick wall, smacking the back of my head against its coolness..i heard it so clear "you do not need to understand me ..respect my torment..or turn and look for the exit"
sit and listen on this nimble bar stool..careful.
do not fall and hit your face on the sticky floor of inlightenment..
Posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 22:48:06
In reply to How stupid of me! » Deneb, posted by rainbowbrite on October 13, 2005, at 22:38:06
Are you angry with me?
I'm sorry.
Posted by rainbowbrite on October 13, 2005, at 22:49:27
In reply to Frustrated ********Trigger*************, posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 21:43:33
>>I find myself getting a little angry because it feels like people are saying it is not OK for me to kill myself.
i can't speak for others but this isnt what Im saying. Im not talking about *you*, Im saying just be sensitive to others' emotions. think about when you feel bad, do you like when others feel bad too? see where Im going with this? Im not saying kill youself. I dont think anyone should! Im just saying that a lot of the time it isnt about *you*, but you view it about *you* its how you phrase things. Its feels to me that it is done in a mocking way. I recall one post where you thought it was funny listening to the way some people tried to kill themselves. thats all.thats it.
Posted by Nickengland on October 13, 2005, at 22:53:50
In reply to Re: Need to understand ** Trigger warning » Deneb, posted by crazy teresa on October 13, 2005, at 22:26:38
Hi teresa,
>What I don't understand it why you insist on threatening suicide every other week.
Thought this link might be of some use..
>Someone with a personality disorder will engage in a certain behaviour pattern that usually causes more problems than it solves - if not for them, then for the people around them. This behaviour will usually be the result of a deeply held belief - often to do with the way that they view the world. Their belief in this world view is so strong that any evidence to the contrary is discounted.
And..
What professional help is available?
There are many treatment approaches to personality disorder. Research into the use of cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT), and variants of this called cognitive analytic therapy (CAT) and dialectic therapy have shown promising results.Psychodynamic group therapy also seems to have some effect. This can often be in the setting of a therapeutic community (TC). This is a residential unit where patients take part in a lot of intensive group therapy. There are only two or three such units in the country, and referral to them is usually via a local mental health team. The TC will then do its own assessment which may not result in the patient being accepted.
Some people with personality disorder get the treatment they need after coming into contact with the police and courts, and being assessed as suitable for treatment by a forensic psychiatrist.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/conditions/mental_health/disorders_person.shtml
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by crazy teresa on October 13, 2005, at 23:04:29
In reply to Re: Need to understand ** Trigger warning, posted by Nickengland on October 13, 2005, at 22:53:50
Posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 23:07:29
In reply to Re: Need to understand ** Trigger warning, posted by Nickengland on October 13, 2005, at 22:53:50
...are you saying I should be in jail?
I didn't do anything illegal.
Deneb
Posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 23:13:22
In reply to Re: Nickengland..., posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 23:07:29
I have some insight I think. My p-doc said so. She said I have a mild borderline personality.
I scored low for anti-social personality in this quiz I took, so I'm not sure why you think I will go to jail.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20051007/msgs/564659.html
Deneb
Posted by crazy teresa on October 13, 2005, at 23:37:58
In reply to Re: Nickengland..., posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 23:13:22
The article said some people don't get the help they need until they go to jail. The courts are forcing them to get treatment.
As opposed to going and getting the NEEDED help on your own, before things get way out of control and the police are forced to intervene.
Posted by justyourlaugh on October 13, 2005, at 23:47:07
In reply to Re: Nickengland..., posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 23:13:22
good golly ..
being brief..
repeat explainations...
honest..
caring..
love..
tell us where to go from here...
Posted by gardenergirl on October 13, 2005, at 23:47:17
In reply to Re: Nickengland..., posted by Deneb on October 13, 2005, at 23:13:22
Deneb,
Nothing in Nick's post says anthing about you going to jail. His post was not about you, it was about treatment and patterns of behavior and events often seen in people with personality disorders.I'm worried about you.
Are you still taking your medication as prescribed? Are you getting regular sleep and nutrition? Are you doing at least one thing you enjoy everyday? Do you do at least one thing you are capable of doing (even if it's tying your shoes) every day?
These are things than can help people cope with mood disruptions, or affective dysregulation as Linehan refers to it in her work on Dialectical Behavior Therapy. You mightalso find some interesting exercises in learning to cope with and manage distress at www.dbtselfhelp.com Perhaps this approach could help you discover choices in ways to cope while you wait for you pdoc to return from her leave.
And the issue about talking about suicide and how it affects others is an issue of courtesy. We have rules here at Babble to help us extend courtesy to one another. When there isn't a rule, we try to be sensitive to others' feelings, even if they do not match ours. Sometimes that means we can't talk about certain subjects in the manner we would like to here.
I like to talk about my political beliefs, and I often make jokes about the other political party and some of its leaders. It's a habit I have that might hurt others who's views are different from my own. It's both a rule here and a courtesy I extend (at least I try to be consistent with it) to my fellow Babblers to refrain from discussing politics in that manner. That's something I have to live with in order to participate here.
Please stop to consider others' feelings before you post about something triggering. I appreciate that you are putting a trigger warning in your subject lines.
gg
Posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 0:11:38
In reply to Take a deep breath and read Nick's post again,plz » Deneb, posted by gardenergirl on October 13, 2005, at 23:47:17
> Deneb,
> Nothing in Nick's post says anthing about you going to jail.I'm sorry Nickengland, I read the post and I thought you were talking about how I should be in jail. Also, I have insight, I really do. I suspected I had a borderline personality even before my p-doc mentioned it.
> Are you still taking your medication as prescribed?
I kinda experimented with taking 0.25mg Risperdal yesterday(?) instead of 0.5mg. I think it helps me be more hesitant to act on my thoughts.
>Are you getting regular sleep and nutrition?
I think so. My sleep is never truly regular so it is normal for me.
>Are you doing at least one thing you enjoy everyday?
I may as well. I just realized my life is over.
> Do you do at least one thing you are capable of doing (even if it's tying your shoes) every day?
I went to class instead of buying a you-know-what. I like to sleep a lot. I sleep til 3pm.
>You mightalso find some interesting exercises in learning to cope with and manage distress at www.dbtselfhelp.comThanks for the website GG
> Please stop to consider others' feelings before you post about something triggering.
I will try very hard to remember GG. I'm going to take Rainbowbrite's word that triggers hurt people and make them feel like when I'm feeling really horrible.
Deneb
Posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 0:40:40
In reply to Re: Thanks GG *trigger?* » gardenergirl, posted by Deneb on October 14, 2005, at 0:11:38
Here's some good info on borderline personality disorder
=================================================
http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic270.htm"BPD is considered to have a condition on the border between psychosis and neurosis."
"The disorder is characterized by marked instability in functioning; affect; mood; interpersonal relationships; and, at times, reality testing."
"Patients with BPD might manifest overwhelming anger when in a state of crisis."
"Psychotic symptoms, when present, are short lived, circumscribed, or accompanied by good reality testing."
"The person with a personality disorder is frequently dissatisfied with his or her marked and sustained impairment in social, occupational, or academic functioning."
"Premature death among patients with BPD may be due to the increased risk of suicide in this population. Approximately 70-75% of patients with BPD have a history of at least one deliberate act of self-harm. According to Linehan et al, the **mean estimated rate of completed suicides 9%.**"
=================================================
I'm doomed. :-(
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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