![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 49 to 73 of 73. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 27, 2004, at 20:30:35
In reply to Re: Invisibility, posted by spoc on April 27, 2004, at 19:51:27
> much of the point is “posting around” people -– not posting, leaving, and forgetting; but staying on a thread and going around them during it.
Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused, could you please rephrase that?
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by spoc on April 27, 2004, at 20:34:07
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 19:55:34
<<<< First, remember that things were going smoothly and no one was upset until calls were made that make it seem like people should be upset.
> Maybe they are,,,and maybe it is them and then maybe it isn't. So wouldn't saying to me, spoc, underethics and some other posters what we see and feel is not the case or real also uncivil and kind of gaslighting???..
<<<< And again acknowledging human nature that exists everywhere, we know the people reading all this and agreeing with it would mostly be afraid to get involved if they are uncomfortable already. And that is not an insult to anyone, we shouldn't have to deny natural (and general) laws here.
> I feel ATTACKED when I am told "this is not so" to me on something I and others *see AND FEEL* and post about. I do not see civil flags in those cases. Those posts DO lead me to feel put down. ..The subject does seem taboo as no matter how one replies on THIS end it gets tagged >
<<<<< This kind of subject is easy to take the path of least resistance on, because it *is* uncomfortable to many. Bouts of good-intentioned, unconscious white-washing of any subsequent points could easily lead to a final spin that everyone feels bad for the oversensitive posters who assessed things inaccurately just because their feelings were hurt. Think about it.
The position taken here *is* the minority position, or at least the minority *vocalized* opinion. And by definition those are hard positions to get equal consideration for, but that doesn't mean the points are invalid.
Posted by spoc on April 27, 2004, at 20:55:08
In reply to Re: what we see and feel, posted by Dr. Bob on April 27, 2004, at 20:29:14
> Your feelings are your feelings, it's hard for others to argue with how you feel. Which is one of the advantages of I-statements. Disagreeing with what you see, however, I'd consider to be having a different point of view, which in general I think would be fine. >
<<<<< I think we genuinely want help understanding why if it's flipped the other way, you don't see it as the exact same thing -- different points of view, each saying "I don't see it that way myself, and here's why;" and each indeed arguing from that person's own feelings. Please tell us. The FAQS can't address a nuance like this, why a given disagreement can at times only go in one direction.
Posted by Dinah on April 27, 2004, at 21:02:17
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by spoc on April 27, 2004, at 20:34:07
And I'm sorry if it falls short. But I can't do better than my best. I have some friends here, that's true. But I'm never averse to making more. And most of my friends here now measure their time in months here, not years.
I also did my best on this thread, offering hints and alternate reasons that responses might not be plentiful. People can take them for whatever they are worth and discard the rest. As they can for all my posts, really.
As I said, I do my best, and I'm just not going to feel guilty if that's not good enough.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 22:02:20
In reply to Re: what we see and feel, posted by Dr. Bob on April 27, 2004, at 20:29:14
Dr Bob as always no disrespect but I named no names and *disagreed the same way others did on the other side of the coin shall we say*..in I STATEMENTS and MY feelings....If say 8 different people posted they feel ignored in here and I agreed ..then someone posted that is not the case to ME that poster is the uncivil one...we ARE feeling ignored and the lack of replies is the proof...and we FEEL that ...Now why would some saying you do not have a valid reason to feel that way be civil but by my saying the same from a different angle its uncivil for me and NOT as it was/is a disagreement? This is odd
> > wouldn't saying to me, spoc, underethics and some other posters what we see and feel is not the case or real also uncivil and kind of gaslighting???..
>
> Your feelings are your feelings, it's hard for others to argue with how you feel. Which is one of the advantages of I-statements. Disagreeing with what you see, however, I'd consider to be having a different point of view, which in general I think would be fine.
>
> Sorry, I know it gets complicated here sometimes, knowing what's OK to say how...
>
> Bob
Posted by gardenergirl on April 27, 2004, at 22:42:32
In reply to Re: Invisibility, posted by spoc on April 27, 2004, at 19:51:27
To all: This certainly is a bit of a slippery slope as we do each have our own perceptions and feelings about our Babble experience. I know that the risk of a PBC can sometimes make it difficult to post on this, and I understand that there are more thoughts and concerns out there than are posted. Just wanted to offer my email address if anyone wants to talk more about it with me off the board.
gardenergirl88 at yahoo dot com
Please note it sometimes takes me a day or two to respond to emails, but I am interested in hearing more thoughts if anyone wants to.
And I think if one of the hopes for this thread was to stimulate thought about individual posting habits, that certainly seems to have been accomplished. :)
Take care,
gg
Posted by spoc on April 27, 2004, at 22:45:46
In reply to Well, I do my best., posted by Dinah on April 27, 2004, at 21:02:17
Dinah, please remember that you weren't upset before. We were all communicating fine until a different light was cast. That's an important aspect for people not to overlook.
I lament that the opportunity to continue discussing it nicely, calmly and usefully concluded prematurely. Last night you even requested that it continue, as you wanted to be open to possibilities, but the moment may be lost and both camps probably need to retire. It hasn't been good for you or anyone to end up feeling this way, and I don't think it had to happen. I am sorry to see that it did. But, whatever the realities of the dynamics here are, people may be so aware now that some good is bound to come of it! : )
---
> And I'm sorry if it falls short. But I can't do better than my best. I have some friends here, that's true. But I'm never averse to making more. And most of my friends here now measure their time in months here, not years.
>
> I also did my best on this thread, offering hints and alternate reasons that responses might not be plentiful. People can take them for whatever they are worth and discard the rest. As they can for all my posts, really.
>
> As I said, I do my best, and I'm just not going to feel guilty if that's not good enough.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 23:03:59
In reply to Re: Invisibility, posted by gardenergirl on April 27, 2004, at 22:42:32
GG, That was exactly my point in joining this thread and some other threads like it when they came up ..Thanks for the email addy I will save it :) and use it when I have time
GG said
<<And I think if one of the hopes for this thread was to stimulate thought about individual posting habits, that certainly seems to have been accomplished. :)Take care,
gg
>>
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 23:08:33
In reply to Re: Well, I do my best. » Dinah, posted by spoc on April 27, 2004, at 22:45:46
At the risk of sounding like your monkey Spoc I agree again....we were ALL civil IMO and I do not see how those of us who pointed this issue out werent./.I really dont..when I am wrong I admit it but I am not on this one. Some of us see it..some dont..some may now....but the FACT is there have been MANY threads started and NOT by me..I did one way back....on being overlooked so it was to have some merit
> Dinah, please remember that you weren't upset before. We were all communicating fine until a different light was cast. That's an important aspect for people not to overlook.
>
> I lament that the opportunity to continue discussing it nicely, calmly and usefully concluded prematurely. Last night you even requested that it continue, as you wanted to be open to possibilities, but the moment may be lost and both camps probably need to retire. It hasn't been good for you or anyone to end up feeling this way, and I don't think it had to happen. I am sorry to see that it did. But, whatever the realities of the dynamics here are, people may be so aware now that some good is bound to come of it! : )
>
> ---
> > And I'm sorry if it falls short. But I can't do better than my best. I have some friends here, that's true. But I'm never averse to making more. And most of my friends here now measure their time in months here, not years.
> >
> > I also did my best on this thread, offering hints and alternate reasons that responses might not be plentiful. People can take them for whatever they are worth and discard the rest. As they can for all my posts, really.
> >
> > As I said, I do my best, and I'm just not going to feel guilty if that's not good enough.
>
Posted by gardenergirl on April 27, 2004, at 23:14:30
In reply to Re: Invisibility » gardenergirl, posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 23:03:59
Posted by NikkiT2 on April 28, 2004, at 6:02:00
In reply to Well, I do my best., posted by Dinah on April 27, 2004, at 21:02:17
Another thing for me.. if I post to one person, I feel I should be posting to everyone.. Theres simply not enough words for me, or time, to respond to every singel post.. yet if I reply to one, I get guilt about the other 200... Its a wierd thing *lol* But, I guess, its easier for to reply to none (other than the odd one that leaps out at me) than all..
I admit there are posters I reply to more.. as an example, slinky, as she is pretty local to me geographically, and so I understand alot of her frustrations with the health system here better.. And if someone posts that I've known 4 or 5 years, its obviously easier for me to reply as I understand them better than someone I know nothing about.
Its hard to feel an outsider.. and that is how I feel here these days.. I'm not blaming anyone or anything.. We would all love to be included in everything, and not being included does leave you feeling left out and maybe slightly hurt..
I dunno.. I guess I'm just trying to say that you don't have to be a newbie to feel the way some of you feel!
Nikki x
Posted by Dinah on April 28, 2004, at 8:45:27
In reply to Re: Well, I do my best. » Dinah, posted by spoc on April 27, 2004, at 22:45:46
Nothing I posted last night had anything to do with any of his actions.
Posted by spoc on April 28, 2004, at 10:51:55
In reply to Re: To be utterly fair to Dr. Bob » spoc, posted by Dinah on April 28, 2004, at 8:45:27
> Nothing I posted last night had anything to do with any of his actions.
Goodmorning! And ok, I had thought you sounded frustrated by the end of the evening, and wanted to help leave things on an amiable note by considering different dynamics. The kinds of things you had been saying when we were all still in a reflection mode were, Here are some thoughts -- I often assume (nm)s don't require a response; I try not to get attached to my posts because waiting can cause anxiety; interesting to analyze these things, etc. The quick subsequent change in the tone of the thread wasn't soothing for anyone involved, but came from emotions that never would have been felt or expressed spontaneously. Anyway the bottom line is that I hope to leave the air all clear with us. : )
If at some point (not even necessarily now because my brain is crispy over all this too!) you could help Fallen and me understand some of the 'whys', I think we'd sincerely appreciate it. You're as good at interpreting that stuff as possible! Why the positions of the two camps and right to express them weren't equally valid and the same in their underlying identification of inaccurate perceptions as the cause; and why there have been innumerable passionate historical debates over some general board or poster pattern/trend, with the heated exchanges allowed to flow freely unless and until someone made it personal to another party.
I know life isn't always utterly fair and no one should expect it to be -- most posters asking to have sense made of the discrepancies over time have had to do without, and sometimes this has pained you too. I think it's a good idea to at least try asking first before rolling over. I would like to think that of course the greater good of the board is vital, but that the lot of individuals (in this application, more fragile individuals) counts too. At its root, a PBC is the preliminary notion that you could be the type who is bad for a community. That's painful, so comprehensible justification and help with seeing the uniformity in it is only fair, especially as this is a mental health board concerned with people getting the right messages from their environments to the extent possible.
Consistency, benefit of the doubt, the whole "Better that a thousand guilty men go free than one innocent man is convicted" thing. Even if the innocent man's circumstance hasn't endeared him. As a matter of fact, if we can't get help with seeing where the consistency is, our chances for not repeating the offense are greatly decreased, and we won't know when it's ok for us to join in future discussions in which the same kinds of things are going on but no one is being reprimanded or thought to be upsetting by anyone involved.
Ok, enough philosophizing! Boy do I wish I could be "in person" sometimes; the "in writing" thing sure does have its limits! ;- )
Posted by spoc on April 28, 2004, at 11:11:12
In reply to Guilt, posted by NikkiT2 on April 28, 2004, at 6:02:00
Hi Nikki! I appreciate the balance you give by expressing that you know what it's like to be in all positions that have been discussed. But just in case you feel bad about anything, going by your post title, I wanted to say again that shy and/or infrequent posting isn't a bad thing for anyone or something that the person should have to struggle to change! I have seen your posts going back a long time and time enjoyed them, and without even thinking about it have realized that you just pop in and out and may prefer a low profile sometimes. And none of this is my call to begin with, I do know that, I had only meant to participate in a discussion of a facet of group dynamics that may simply have been of interest and use. That really is all, but boy, that "in writing" thing!
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts! :- )
Posted by spoc on April 28, 2004, at 11:33:38
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » spoc, posted by Dr. Bob on April 27, 2004, at 20:30:35
> > much of the point is “posting around” people -– not posting, leaving, and forgetting; but staying on a thread and going around them during it. >
> Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused, could you please rephrase that? >
Ok, I know my sentiments on the calls are already lodged, so I'll skip right to trying to perform the above. It really isn't easy, because it may be more the principle than the words that is being referred to, but I'll try:
"What I meant was the times that it has appeared to me that posting goes on above and below a person who is attempting to participate, while a thread is in progress. Please know that I didn't mean to say that I think people should remember to come back to every thread they've been on and may be done with, just to check."
----
Also, please note that I do believe now that the whole original matter should just be retired as a friendly "agree to disagree" situation. As it should be, bountiful viewpoints and possibilities have been provided by all camps, and have been appreciated. I really don't want or need to continue with it at all, or if anyone else does it looks like it may be better done in another format. At this point or at some point, if possible, I just wanted some help understanding application of the rules.
Posted by TexasChic on April 28, 2004, at 12:42:28
In reply to Re: Invisibility, posted by spoc on April 27, 2004, at 19:51:27
Um, I don't really want to get into this whole thing, but I thought as one of the newer people I might share my feelings. I came to this site knowing it was an internet forum and that there would be already established relationships here. I felt that rather than it being the responsibility of the people already here, it was up to me to try to get to know people. And that has worked out fine for me.
I don't feel anyone should feel *obligated* to respond to me at anytime. There are posts I don't respond to because I'm either uncomfortable or unknowlegable about the subject matter. But I don't feel bad about that because I know others who are more knowledgable will respond. If I started a thread that got no responses, I would think that maybe I need to reword it or just try again in order to make people want to respond.
I think its really nice when people welcome a newcomer, but I don't think anyone should feel bad because for whatever reason they missed welcoming someone. I just don't feel we could have the *genuine* support I see around here if people felt these things were *required* of them somehow.
Anyway, that's my two cents, and I didn't read all the posts in this thread because its so long, so if I'm way off track, please forgive me.
Posted by spoc on April 28, 2004, at 15:03:01
In reply to Re: Invisibility, posted by TexasChic on April 28, 2004, at 12:42:28
> Um, I don't really want to get into this whole thing,
---<<<<< I won't and don't consider you to be, honestly, even if I respond to the general and good points. This role is difficult when a discussion has certain aspects to it; in the study of logic and/or debating I think there is even a name for it; when a position sounds so blanketly correct that it's uncomfortable and may feel foolish to even try to oppose, similar to deciding to go up against political correctness. But, underlying the thing are valid points from another school, that may be in the minority but are still valid.
Then, pursuing those points and how to do so goes back to the heart of whether it's ok to say someone's perceptions are incorrect or possibly show only unreasonable desires/expectations. So regarding this topic and thread in general, it may be better to say Your point may be valid, but it would be the exception, not the rule. Rather than saying it is wrong or nonexistent. I do say that in a general sense, not to you.
---> I came to this site knowing it was an internet forum and that there would be already established relationships here. I felt that rather than it being the responsibility of the people already here, it was up to me to try to get to know people. And that has worked out fine for me. >
---<<<<< This topic was raised and anticipated to be welcome for reasons such as how it relates to the very purpose of the Newbie board kind of thing, and the same reasons that that was discussed. Some people are naturals and would have no need for clarifications, tips, training wheels with which to get it. We thought this feedback and angle would be helpful, possibly welcome, that's all, I really really really mean that. Because a lot of people care a lot about all that stuff and say they want to know. Sorry to all if the intentions didn't come across right.
Along those lines, it was meant to be just a "Hey, would be great if people could keep this in mind, just thought they may not have thought of it and find it interesting or worthwhile" kind of thing. It could be easy to spot when someone is indeed trying to participate, but probably also easy not to see, so just one thing to point out, merely point out, in case anyone would want to know, just in case. But yes, discretionary of course.
---> I don't feel anyone should feel *obligated* to respond to me at anytime. >
---<<<<< I do agree. Just pointing something out, for those who'd want to know, because they are out there, and would *like* to keep it in mind. Not necessarily because they were wrong before, but because this is just the way they like to do things.
---> There are posts I don't respond to ...but I don't feel bad about that because I know others who are more knowledgable will respond.
---<<<<< Not necessarily true, but so be it, yes. Also, it's kinda different in a request for concrete information, because often not much was put out there, and clearly not everyone or even anyone *will* know the answer. I referred more to attempts to connect and also share relief over what is being talked about in a thread. To use a random scenario for illustration, like if people are sharing healthy laughter over how their depression or issues affect their habits. Maybe they are seeing the "light side" of something like how it can lead them sometimes not to bathe or brush their teeth. And even though it's embarrassing and maybe you don't 'know them,' you jump in and say "Hi you guys! I do that too, here's another funny way to look at it..." and at some point maybe also say "Hey so-and-so (>>), I particularly related to how you just expressed it, and here's why...." And all around you, the >>'s to each other but not you continue. I agree, it's no one's responsibility, but in cases like that, I honestly believe many people would want to have had this heads-up given, rather than take a "You're on your own" position. And that it's plenty likely they weren't aware of it, but there's no way they ever will be, if someone doesn't risk putting it out there.
--> If I started a thread that got no responses, I would think that maybe I need to reword it or just try again in order to make people want to respond.>
---<<<<< Just FYI, my own focus here wasn't so much about actual starting of threads. I admitted my own tendencies regarding this, which are to spend too much time online/onboard and then panic and either not scroll down the whole current boards at all, or do so at 60 MPH, unconsciously seeing only clusters of activity. I even missed a thread Karen Kay started with my name on it last night, during these debates!
---> I think its really nice when people welcome a newcomer, but I don't think anyone should feel bad because for whatever reason they missed welcoming someone. I just don't feel we could have the *genuine* support I see around here if people felt these things were *required* of them somehow. >
---<<<<< Solid reasoning, I again do agree. I/we were just using possibly injudicious words to convey a "fun fact" about things that may occur, for and only for those who'd like, and even enjoy, keeping them in mind. It's great and ideal when things come to and evolve naturally for people like they did you; thank God more people don't have trouble with it! But just giving a perspective from when it doesn't. It was conceded going back to the beginning of this that everything is discretionary and everyone is on their own, wouldn't dream of seeking mandates. Just saying, to those interested in hearing about and weighing various possible challenges, there it is.
Thanks for posting, I've enjoyed 'talking' with you in the past, and wouldn't expect you to respond -- I did so myself here only for the usefulness of using the general points as platforms. I respect that you don't want to be involved, don't think you are, and I envy that at this point actually! ;- )
Posted by TexasChic on April 28, 2004, at 15:55:16
In reply to Re: Invisibility » TexasChic, posted by spoc on April 28, 2004, at 15:03:01
Just so you know, I wasn't responding directly to you or anything (not that you said anything to reflect that, I just realized it could have looked that way after I made the post). I was just throwing in my thoughts and experiences concerning the general discussion.
I've enjoyed 'talking' to you too! :-)
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 28, 2004, at 19:16:14
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Dr. Bob, posted by spoc on April 28, 2004, at 11:33:38
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 28, 2004, at 21:59:27
In reply to Re: what we see and feel » Dr. Bob, posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 22:02:20
> [A] If say 8 different people posted they feel ignored in here and I agreed ..then someone posted that is not the case to ME that poster is the uncivil one...we ARE feeling ignored
Right...
> Now why would ... my saying the same from a different angle its uncivil for me and NOT as it was/is a disagreement? This is odd
I assume this is an example of what you're referring to as the same from a different angle:
> [B] I could name about 7 people's screen names ... who never miss a reply to one another's posts ... yet they miss or ignore a post STARTED by another poster
I think I see what you mean, A is about people feeling ignored by others, and B is about people doing the ignoring.
But the "different angle" makes it a civility issue. A is an I-statement, "I feel ignored", and is about your feelings. B is a they-statement, "they ignore others", and is about the behavior of other people -- and so could lead other people to feel accused of that behavior.
Does that make any sense?
Bob
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 29, 2004, at 18:18:24
In reply to Re: what we see and feel, posted by Dr. Bob on April 28, 2004, at 21:59:27
Hey Dr Bob, To be honest no I really do not see it because it would HAVE to be some posters to net a feeling ignored result....I cant say for example *rabbits* are ignoring me/us/them..when it's other posters...So how else could I put it..???? .I am not really talking about ME being ignored because I am off the site more than on..so being ignored is not my issue anymore...its the issue in general..I have REALLY seen posts STARTED by people ...not all the same person....ignored...thats sad and my point is just to point out it would be *civil also* if we all took the time..now and then **IF we had the RESOURCES to note those posts and respond not out of pity or anything but because its the right thing to do..IF WE CAN DO IT** I would not think someone on the edge would post to them and thats understandable...That's all I was saying. I cannot pretend I do not see people feeling hurt because they are overlooked...I hope this makes sense...??? I have a bad flare up of carpels tunnel and typing is killing me...Anyhow its not against anyone ITS FOR posters new and old..and to POINT out this really is an issue...If I had a party and someone felt left out because nobody *spoke back to them*..that would make me so sad. Thats what I am saying. I see your point on those who don't want the responsibility so to speak or cannot do it....but I am not talking about them...I mean hey if ANY of us have a good day...it wouldnt hurt to talk to someone who has a post out there nobody replied too...BLAB BLAB BLAB LOL I KNOW..NO WONDER I have carpels tunnel..I just dont want people to feel hurt is all
hugs
<<> [B] I could name about 7 people's screen names ... who never miss a reply to one another's posts ... yet they miss or ignore a post STARTED by another poster
I think I see what you mean, A is about people feeling ignored by others, and B is about people doing the ignoring.
But the "different angle" makes it a civility issue. A is an I-statement, "I feel ignored", and is about your feelings. B is a they-statement, "they ignore others", and is about the behavior of other people -- and so could lead other people to feel accused of that behavior.
Does that make any sense?
Bob >>
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 30, 2004, at 3:56:31
In reply to Re: what we see and feel » Dr. Bob, posted by Fallen4MyT on April 29, 2004, at 18:18:24
> To be honest no I really do not see it because it would HAVE to be some posters to net a feeling ignored result....
1. I think I see what you mean, but IMO it still makes a difference to focus on the feeling ignored result rather than the behavior "cause".
2. "Ignore" implies doing something deliberately, which may not be the case at all. According to the dictionary: "to refuse to take notice of ... to reject as ungrounded".
> my point is just to point out it would be *civil also* if we all took the time..now and then **IF we had the RESOURCES to note those posts and respond not out of pity or anything but because its the right thing to do..IF WE CAN DO IT** I would not think someone on the edge would post to them and thats understandable...That's all I was saying.
That's fine, and I agree!
Bob
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 30, 2004, at 22:53:36
In reply to Re: what we see and feel, posted by Dr. Bob on April 30, 2004, at 3:56:31
Thank you for understanding Bob sometimes it's so hard to put in words what you feel because people cannot see your face or hear your tone of voice. As I said I just want us ALL to do the right things so to speak as in kind to all *when* we can. I am glad you understand I can be such a loopy loon at times when in writing.
> > To be honest no I really do not see it because it would HAVE to be some posters to net a feeling ignored result....
>
> 1. I think I see what you mean, but IMO it still makes a difference to focus on the feeling ignored result rather than the behavior "cause".
>
> 2. "Ignore" implies doing something deliberately, which may not be the case at all. According to the dictionary: "to refuse to take notice of ... to reject as ungrounded".
>
> > my point is just to point out it would be *civil also* if we all took the time..now and then **IF we had the RESOURCES to note those posts and respond not out of pity or anything but because its the right thing to do..IF WE CAN DO IT** I would not think someone on the edge would post to them and thats understandable...That's all I was saying.
>
> That's fine, and I agree!
>
> Bob
Posted by noa on May 1, 2004, at 7:23:32
In reply to Re: No guilt :- ) » NikkiT2, posted by spoc on April 28, 2004, at 11:11:12
I want to be friendly to newcomers, but I know I'm not consistent. It is absolutely not personal. It's just that there are SO many posts on these boards. I can't read them all, and often I don't visit here for a number of days at a time, and miss a lot.
Also, sometimes I read a thread and just am not ready to respond right away--I have to think.
Sometimes I feel better if it seems to me that a newcomer has gotten a lot of responses from a bunch of people and seems to have made friends, and seems to be getting support and info. Then, since I am not able to read all the posts and spend that much time here, I feel like my adding something isn't necessary.
I do have old friends that of course I'm likely to respond to--I think it's natural. But I've met newer people too. I'm not closed to the idea of meeting new people here. It's just that this has gotten to be such a big group of people--kind of like if you're walking down a street in your neighborhood and you pass someone and smile or say hi. If the frequency is relatively low, this makes sense. But if you live on a heavily poputlated large city avenue and walking down the street means passing hundreds of people, it isn't practical to greet everyone. Sometimes I have the time to stop and talk but sometimes not.
I know it seems to newer posters that the oldies are like "insiders" or something. But I've been on the outside too. It took me a while to integrate into the group, too. And even as an oldtimer, there are times when I get zero responses to a post. But I've learned not to take it personally.
Sorry, didn't mean to make anyone feel invisible.
Posted by spoc on May 6, 2004, at 14:43:47
In reply to Re: what we see and feel » Dr. Bob, posted by Fallen4MyT on April 30, 2004, at 22:53:36
Hi,
For so long now I have wanted to post some insights about what I gained through this thread, before too much time passes and no one is reading it anymore. But every time I try to put something together, it veers off into areas I didn't mean for it to. All of it has been useful to me, but wasn't turning into the focused point that I had sought to add to this thread. So, one more try!
I fell into some helpful self-reflection after this, and while I do believe I am pretty self aware, I realized a few things -- or the extent of them -- that I hadn't before. One of the biggest is that some of what was going on here -- and in me in general these days -- is coming from situational factors in other parts of my life, that lately have me predisposed to anger and feeling unappreciated. Oh, I have always had my various issues, but here I mean that things get stirred up in me lately that in reality weren't part of them before. And that probably make me sound like I have standing issues with things that I don't.
The biggest situational factor I have going on is that years ago, I found the "perfect" -- and most nightmarish -- work situation to put myself into. My tendency to seek space and flexibility lead me to an at-home job wherein, due to complicated particulars I won't go into, there is virtually no possibility of feedback of any kind, and definitely no possibility of a future; verbal or financial reward/bonuses/benefits; or even market-rate pay from my absentee boss.
For years I have agreed to work for peanuts as a "permanent" independent contractor, responsible for any and all business that comes in (and on-call 24/7 for free due to that); and to receive no reinforcement of any kind. All in order to procure this "flexibility" (and INvisibilty!). And I never have to come face to face with anyone to do my work, or even get dressed.
My boss, who is a far-away retired speculator who now wishes he had never bought this tiny company, never sees my work, speaks to clients or even has any familiarity with this industry to be able to assess if I *am* particularly good at what I do. Due to that he even occasionally questions the hours I submit (and if you knew what the amounts are that we're talking here, you would laugh... or cry!), at the times I have worked the hardest and actually deserve a compliment.
Because of his absence and unfamiliarity with the field, I also have to keep us administratively and legally afloat and compliant, but he looks only at client receipts (and I am not in sales for us, but rather I perform our service for a client base that HE was supposed to bring in). And sometimes he takes off on a trip and doesn't pay me, our vendors or even return calls for weeks at a time. After so many years, this began making me feel worthless and even guilty for submitting pay requests, even though in my heart I know I do a great job, go above and beyond as a rule, and that he has a real bargain in me.
(Note that I even subtract at least a third of the time I spend working to adjust for the fact that I know I am *too* much of a perfectionist. And when I say -- as I have -- that I sometimes use my flexibility to be on the Internet, I am of course not billing for that time, and my work isn't the type that needs to all be done during business hours anyway. I add that just for perspective, not that any such particulars have ever come up between my boss and me or should.)
I live alone, and exacerbating the vacuum I have put myself in is that during this same time, I began backing away from friends and my social existence. *THAT* move in itself has surely been exacerbated by the tendency of someone like me to go downhill in general, if allowed to give up all structure. Which is what I have orchestrated in this job. So while by nature I don't think I do need very much from other people or by way of luxuries, I have for years now put myself in a position that ensures I will receive absolutely nothing of any kind (unless someone connects with me on the Internet!).
I am throwing away my potential for a reasonably happy and fulfilling life on all fronts, and that probably is *not* just the depression or lethargy happening *first* and then causing this shut down. The longer I stay in this the more entrenched and unable to change or motivate I get; and it's been going on for so many years now that more than anything else I am terrified of regrets... But paralyzed.
And most germane of all, I have realized that I have a lot of anger in me, and feelings of being unappreciated. That's actually not something I was very aware of before, and of course I don't like it, but at least now I have made the connection. I now also think this is the main reason I continue to keep real-life friends at arms length, as well as potential mates, because I know I have this anger in me (that is actually anger at myself). I don't have a tendency to express it by lashing out at people or putting them down, fortunately, but I can get impossibly oversensitive, defensive, and "paranoid."
And I have historically been given reason to believe I am pretty perceptive, which probably makes times like this worse, because my first inclination is to believe myself and my instincts about what I've taken offense to! And then to back off and hide away since I can't be sure how realistic I'm being, but do know that something is bothering me. So my answer is to keep it to myself until a time I may be better able to.
In their own way, these realizations have actually given me some peace. Because I know only I am responsible for setting myself up for all this -- few 'men' are probably TRULY islands unto themselves (and it's pretty darn hard for me to meet my bills at the rate of pay on this island). It was destined to blow up in my face someday. But is also reason for hope -- hope that if I change my circumstances, most/much of the anger will go away, and isn't really me.
Ok, don't know if I managed the succinctness I had in mind, but I'm letting this version stand before it gets too late! And thanks for letting me vent about the job too, which YES YES YES is my own fault for having! ;- )
This is the end of the thread.
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