![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 48. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by judy1 on March 31, 2002, at 12:19:49
I was curious if any of you- Scott, Mark, Cam, Noa, etc. have noticed a change (for the negative) in the tone of posts here compared to say 2 years ago? I was speaking to my pdoc who also runs a board and he agreed with me concerning his own. Any opinions? Thanks-j
Posted by IsoM on March 31, 2002, at 13:20:45
In reply to To old-time PB posters, posted by judy1 on March 31, 2002, at 12:19:49
Judy, I'm not old-time, I'd only been reading it since Sept/Oct & started posting since Nov but have noticed a change since then!
I chalked it up to turn-over rate in those who post, plus people who's been here longer sometimes feeling better & posting less. I'm feeling good & am starting to just drop by every day or so. But I find the change in posting doesn't feel as comfortable for me & I have little to add to what's being said. I may end up disappearing too. So much of what's said is jumped upon & torn apart when I see no reason for it. I've simply refrained from posting (other than one mistaken intention with beardy which has been nicely patched up now).
How are you doing? I've forgotten but how old is your little one? Even if you weren't able to nurse, just physical cuddling can feel *SO* good for both of you. Many, many mothers unable to nurse were able to raise happy, contented healthy children. Bless you, Judy from the other older Judy :-)
Posted by Phil on March 31, 2002, at 14:07:30
In reply to Re: To old-time PB posters » judy1, posted by IsoM on March 31, 2002, at 13:20:45
I've been kickin around here saying senseless bs almost since the board started. At Thanksgiving dinner with my cat, we paste a picture of Dr. Bob on the other lawn chair because he feels like part of the family. I have a recorder that repeats a message over and over,"Please be civil, please be civil." It's real heartwarming.
For Christmas I'll add,"Happy Holiday's, please be civil."
Judy1, what was your question again?Phil
Posted by Mark H. on March 31, 2002, at 14:17:50
In reply to To old-time PB posters, posted by judy1 on March 31, 2002, at 12:19:49
Dear Judy and IsoM,
Here's something I posted in August 2000:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20000813/msgs/69.html
And here's one I'd ask you to re-read from just a couple of weeks ago, if you don't mind:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020308/msgs/3520.html
I think what you're experiencing are the normal cycles that take place in on-line interactions. Someday, Dr. Bob, his grad students, or someone else may map these cycles to see if they correlate to exogenous variables (tensions in the world, delayed reactions to public tragedies or financial downswings, for instance) or whether it's "just the way we are."
We meet, share excitement for a topic, become more intimate (intimacy = risking a level of honesty that leaves us personally vulnerable), expose differences in core beliefs, get down to the stuff that really frightens us or pushes our buttons. Some people blow up, while others blow out. I've seen this so many times here (and everywhere else on the web) that I'm no longer surprised. In fact, I expect it.
In searching for the older post above, I ran across another post I'd made around the same time. I'm astounded that I thought it was OK. If I had run into the same post two weeks ago, I would have deleted it and blocked myself. It's not that what I said was incorrect, but that the confrontive, blunt style I used simply *does not work* in this environment. It only works when people have a clear, mutual agreement that it's OK to use that style (as in one-on-one or group therapy, when people are working together face to face and have other safety and dignity agreements in place to protect themselves and one another). But apparently I had to learn the hard way, over and over again. I hope I've finally gotten it.
With love and respect,
Mark H.
Posted by Tye on March 31, 2002, at 14:48:00
In reply to Re: To old-time PB posters, posted by Mark H. on March 31, 2002, at 14:17:50
Thanks Mark. That was great. Very informative. I agree with alot of what you have said.
Tye
Posted by Mark H. on March 31, 2002, at 15:19:11
In reply to Re: To old-time PB posters » Mark H., posted by Tye on March 31, 2002, at 14:48:00
Posted by Phil on March 31, 2002, at 16:18:16
In reply to To old-time PB posters, posted by judy1 on March 31, 2002, at 12:19:49
Judy I haven't really noticed it. I have seen the astounding growth and with that you do get some pretty angry people..but there are more good ones, too.
We used to get plenty pissed off when the board was still pretty new.
Face it, no orgasms, weight gain, cognitive problems, hideous side effects, etc. don't always bring out the best in people.
I think we do pretty well considering we're all nuts. I mean, look at our leader above. We never had a chance. hahahaha
Posted by Greg on March 31, 2002, at 20:46:09
In reply to To old-time PB posters, posted by judy1 on March 31, 2002, at 12:19:49
> I was curious if any of you- Scott, Mark, Cam, Noa, etc. have noticed a change (for the negative) in the tone of posts here compared to say 2 years ago? I was speaking to my pdoc who also runs a board and he agreed with me concerning his own. Any opinions? Thanks-j
Judy,
I'm afraid I have to disagree with my good friends Mark and Phil. I think there has been a very noticiable change in this board to the negative side. It may be in part because there are many more posters than there were 2+ years ago, but I think that only begins to scratch the surface of the problem. The negativity is largely the reason why I very rarely post.
Just my opinion for what it's worth.
Greg
Posted by Krazy Kat on March 31, 2002, at 20:59:09
In reply to Re: To old-time PB posters » judy1, posted by Greg on March 31, 2002, at 20:46:09
thanks for an interesting thread, judy. i've only been here about a year 1/2, but was reading one thread from maybe 2 yrs. ago and it was different. it was effortless, fun, interesting, there were disagreements but nothing harrassing.
i haven't dealt very well with increase in posters. nor have i done well with the loss of folks whose advice i valued (i.e. greg), so i'm sure i haven't been much help. but imho, 2 things have made it more difficult to maintain a supportive, yet interesting atmosphere:
1. the board has grown so it's tougher to know each other
2. dr. bob has had to respond to that growth by "policing" more.
i would love to see new posters introduce themselves, as some have, take some time to lurk to get to know the environment and understand they can make mistakes while getting used to it. i would also like to see security against multi-posters and perhaps narrower civility rules.
or, the board can be broken into another piece or two.
- kk
Posted by Dinah on March 31, 2002, at 21:19:15
In reply to Re: To old-time PB posters » judy1, posted by Greg on March 31, 2002, at 20:46:09
I have heard over and over again from people who find the board to be getting a less supportive place that their response is to post less frequently or to leave altogether.
But doesn't that create a vicious circle? The supportive posters leave because the board is less civil. The board becomes less civil because the supportive posters leave. Sheer numbers allow the tone of the board to shift.
Might the answer be for the posters who are put off by the lack of civility to come back in droves?
Just a thought.
Posted by Krazy Kat on April 1, 2002, at 9:53:31
In reply to But couldn't this be part of the problem?, posted by Dinah on March 31, 2002, at 21:19:15
i agree, dinah. it would be very helpful if those who have the skills to be supportive, informative posters would remain. but i understand that it is difficult to do so, especially if one is going through a "rough time".
but here is my call - all supportive, helpful posters who have left (and you know who you are :)), please give it another try.
- kk
Posted by mair on April 1, 2002, at 11:54:29
In reply to Re: To old-time PB posters » judy1, posted by Greg on March 31, 2002, at 20:46:09
I think I've been on the Board almost 2 years posting under 2 different names. (don't worry KK, I never used name #1 after I started using name #2) There have been some discrete episodes when people have been pretty feisty and negative, and these times have always generated the kinds of discussions wer're having now: eg has the Board changed? and What does civility mean? is is too restrictive and stifling? These are not new issues.
However, maybe like some others I frequently feel overwelmed trying to find a way to contribute or be supportive. I don't know whether it's the number of posters or the fact that some posters are just very prolific not only in the length of their posts but also in the incidence of their posts. It makes it very difficult for me to follow threads.
I also believe that things may seem more negative in a prolonged way because there does seem to be more verbal jousting. There is no question in my mind that Dr. Bob posts a "please be civil" warning infinitely more times than he used to and I don't think that this just means that he's gotten more restrictive.
I'm not quite sure what to do about it. I hate it when regular posters leave. I'm struck by the fact that some of them really haven't left but now never venture from PB to PSB, although they used to regularly contribute to PSB. Sometimes people leave (at least for a time) because they're doing better, but I think alot of people leave also because they really don't feel that they fit in anymore.
Mair
Posted by tinaboo on April 1, 2002, at 13:03:53
In reply to Re: To old-time PB posters, posted by mair on April 1, 2002, at 11:54:29
I started coming here in march of 2000. I have personally found that the posts have become more emotionally charged and intense over the last 2 years but especially since 9-11.
I can't stand the blatant rage and lack of respect in many of today's posts. I rarely come here anymore and when i do, it's only to see if any of the "old-timers" have posted.
Judy, KK, et al-I miss the way the old board was too. If it reverted to a community of mutual respect and understanding, I could consider coming back on a more regular basis. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. It's saddens me.my best to all the 'old-timers'
I miss you all
tina
Posted by Greg on April 1, 2002, at 17:37:23
In reply to But couldn't this be part of the problem?, posted by Dinah on March 31, 2002, at 21:19:15
Hi Dinah,
I wish whole-heartedly that a lot of the "old timers would come back. I made friends out of that group of people that will be with me until the day that I die. I cherish those friendships. I don't want anyone to misunderstand me, this wasn't ever a perfect place, no online board is. In my time here there has almost always been a little something going on. Somebody trying to get under somebody else's skin. But for the most part early on it was an extremely supportive and helpful site. Even in misunderstandings someone would step forward with a sense of humor and try to put things in perspective and calm the situation down.
There will always be fights, misunderstandings and arguements. That's life. But in my opinion, rarely is there a need to purposely insult, attack or berate another person for expressing an opinion, nor is there any reason to express that opinion by insulting anyone else. I see that happen far too often now. I read the posts here a lot. I have people I always read people like you (BTW, I'm glad you're still here), KK, Sar and several of the others, and there have been many times I've sat down and written a post but didn't send it. I just knew in my mind that no matter how I worded it, someone would take offense. Don't get me wrong, I'm not afraid of a good fight, but more importantly I don't want to be part of this ever growing problem here.
I don't know what the answer is Dinah. But I do think I know what is missing now that we had a few years ago, a sense of family. I miss that a lot.
Greg
>I have heard over and over again from people who find the board to be getting a less supportive place that their response is to post less frequently or to leave altogether.
>
> But doesn't that create a vicious circle? The supportive posters leave because the board is less civil. The board becomes less civil because the supportive posters leave. Sheer numbers allow the tone of the board to shift.
>
> Might the answer be for the posters who are put off by the lack of civility to come back in droves?
>
> Just a thought.
Posted by Noa on April 1, 2002, at 17:59:58
In reply to To old-time PB posters, posted by judy1 on March 31, 2002, at 12:19:49
Judy, today is my first check in for a long time, so I can't comment on recent board happenings. However, I have noticed, over the more than 2.5 years of participating on this board that negativity/hostility ebbs and flows. It got really horrible for a while, if you remember--prompting me to take a hiatus because I felt attacked by a particular poster. Then it became much more peaceful, in part due to Dr. Bob having separated out the different boards, so that complaints about process went to the administration board. Perhaps you got used to the relative peacefulness, and now a cycle of negativity is around? I don't know (as I said, I can't gauge how negative because I haven't been around and even when I was, I was not paying attention to a lot because my time on the board is limited).
Another possibility is that you are in a more peaceful place and have more pressing priorities, which can sometimes make stuff like that stand out more? Again, just a thought.
Posted by judy1 on April 1, 2002, at 18:04:17
In reply to Re: But couldn't this be part of the problem? » Dinah, posted by Greg on April 1, 2002, at 17:37:23
Greg,
I think you expressed it really well- there was a sense of 'community'. I remember all-night vigils with suicidal posters that actually made a difference in a life. Personally, I remember the incredible support I've gotten in the past too. I still do, but there's a fear now of actually opening a post and being afraid of what's there. Maybe it is partially the increase in posters, but I really miss the kindness and sense of family we had. Take care, judy
Posted by judy1 on April 1, 2002, at 18:10:57
In reply to Re: To old-time PB posters » judy1, posted by IsoM on March 31, 2002, at 13:20:45
Thank you for the sweet wishes; I feel really sad about not being able to nurse- but I try to make up for it with more closeness. I thought it was interesting that you've noticed a difference in just a few months of posting- I guess that reinforces the theory of ebb and flows. Take care- judy
Posted by judy1 on April 1, 2002, at 18:14:40
In reply to Re: To old-time PB posters » judy1, posted by Noa on April 1, 2002, at 17:59:58
I agree with your observations of 'cycles', but I still feel like there was much more of a sense of community back then, even with the occasional angry poster. I hope you are well- judy
Posted by Krazy Kat on April 1, 2002, at 18:55:29
In reply to Re: To old-time PB posters » Noa, posted by judy1 on April 1, 2002, at 18:14:40
judy, greg, noa? any suggestions are appreciated!!
Posted by CtrlAlt n Del on April 1, 2002, at 20:13:53
In reply to how can we get back to that sense of community?, posted by Krazy Kat on April 1, 2002, at 18:55:29
Posted by Shar on April 1, 2002, at 20:31:43
In reply to To old-time PB posters, posted by judy1 on March 31, 2002, at 12:19:49
Before I read any of the responses I will say that things don't feel more negative to me, necessarily, but much more scattered. Less focused (on PSB) on the support end of things. Perhaps a better way to say that is that not as many people seem to write for and/or get support.
I'd say the SOCIAL in PSB is the current atmosphere. I'm waiting for a recipe exchange.
Shar
> I was curious if any of you- Scott, Mark, Cam, Noa, etc. have noticed a change (for the negative) in the tone of posts here compared to say 2 years ago? I was speaking to my pdoc who also runs a board and he agreed with me concerning his own. Any opinions? Thanks-j
Posted by kazoo on April 1, 2002, at 21:57:37
In reply to To old-time PB posters, posted by judy1 on March 31, 2002, at 12:19:49
> I was curious if any of you- Scott, Mark, Cam, Noa, etc. have noticed a change (for the negative) in the tone of posts here compared to say 2 years ago? I was speaking to my pdoc who also runs a board and he agreed with me concerning his own. Any opinions? Thanks-j
Is it better to be an "old timer" than a "two timer"?
I was once referred to as an "old timer" by ... well, I don't want to mention names here, but there's a "Dr." in front of his name ... anyway, I was aghast with such horror that my dentures fell out. It took me weeks to find them since I can hardly see through these coke-bottle glasses, and I can't hear so well either ... what's that?
As people get older, their brains, the center of thought, do, too.
So ... I forgot the question already.
kazoo
Posted by tinaboo on April 2, 2002, at 7:36:23
In reply to Re: But couldn't this be part of the problem? » Dinah, posted by Greg on April 1, 2002, at 17:37:23
Ditto to everything he said. It's precisely how I feel too. I'm just not as good at saying it.
That "family" feeling is gone. I think when I first came here, I was in a mess and needed a lot of support and I got it which really surprised me. A bunch of strangers cared about me. I don't see the same thing anymore. These strangers remain strangers or they try hard to push others away with their words. Why come here for support if you are just looking for a fight?
I know emotions ebb and flow but there used to be a closeness, real concern and care for another person. I don't see much of that anymore.
I see a lot of inappropriate humour and/or bickering and anger. I see very little support going on and when there is, it quickly deteriorates into a shouting match.Perhaps it's because we know we really can't help that other person. I mean, you're 100 or 500 or more miles away and you know there's someone in pain. A thousand someones crying out in the dark. It's overwhelming and sometimes the frustration of that reality sparks internal conflict which translates to conflict on the board.
Just my .02
later
Tina
Posted by wendy b. on April 2, 2002, at 9:31:32
In reply to Re: To old-time PB posters YE OL' TIMERS UNITE! » judy1, posted by kazoo on April 1, 2002, at 21:57:37
As usual, Kazoo has taken the conversation to another plane entirely - THANK GOD!! (Even at a stressful time, Kazoo, I hope you are healing...)
I, too, was once referred to by Dr Bob as an old-timer. Wow. If I remember correctly, I lurked for 6 months, starting late in '00, then started participating toward the beginning of '01, and posted a lot during that year, cuz I was having some whopper of a major depressive episode, followed by many months of struggle with alternating depression and hypomanic episodes. I had a lot of issues with meds, asked questions on plain vanilla PB, and settled into a routine with neurontin as a mood-stabilizer, wellbutrin as my happy-pill, xanax for insomnia and bouts of anxiety, etc.
People were sympathetic and helpful, although I felt my role was more of a support to others, and I have issues with asking for others to support me (this is one of my big probelms, working on it in therapy). I hung around here with people who understood, though, and it WAS a fantastic support to me, in that I felt I was not alone, that others had gone through the same mood-disorder things, and many had worse problems, like suicidality... I learned a lot about how people cope with things like cutting, etc., why they do it... Sometimes I felt I was a fly on the wall, almost spying or eavesdropping into the lives of others. (It met my need for High Drama?) Other times I felt very needed, as Judy says, all-night suicide watches, etc. Like the back cover of a book with the reviewer saying "I laughed a lot," or "Riveting!"
I found, however, that I was sitting on the internet and the board a lot. Trying to find work and trying to get certified as a teacher, and all the stuff that goes with single parenting put a brake on my spending time here. I am trying to date (via match.com - check it out, lonelyhearts!) and have met about 5 different men. Nice to even just hang out and drink coffee with new people. So trying to work toward getting my needs met, too, not just caring for my daughter and work.
I am also involved right now with two court cases. One in Family Court, my 10-yr old daughter wants more input on her visitation schedule with her dad. So the court appointed her a law guardian, and the ex and I each have attorneys. Hopefully it won't go to trial. The other case is sueing my former employer, Cornell University, in a federal ADA suit. That one has been difficult, emotionally, going over all the horror of being isolated and hounded by my boss after taking a 2-month disability leave. I was a mess with anxiety and depression, exacerbated by the boss's treatment of me. When I came back, everyone I worked with treated me like a leper, and I was fired after being told I was insubordinate and unable to do my work. So you can imagine how upsetting it is to go over this stuff, which happened almost 2 years ago, making timelines, answering discovery questions from the other side. A miserable job, making me more anxious and depressed. Therapy has helped a lot with this, though... So this has eaten into my time too, thus I have been an infrequent contributor lately.
As usual, Phil is right, the bickering and incivility just go with the territory. We're a bunch of nut-cases trying to work things out. Of course there are going to be people who are breaking down, having trouble with meds, etc., which might make their behavior argumentative, irritable, anxious, unkind. I know anger and irritability have been major symptoms/outcomes of my depression.
Part of learning how to deal with others might just be for people to be uncivil, have that pointed out by Dr Bob, and other members, and then work on appropriate alternate behaviors, and then keep posting. I have seen that happen many times here. There is the possibility for growth in this setting, kind of like group therapy, and I think people should take advantage of that on PSB. Sort of like practice here, before going to the 'outside world' and dealing with the humans in our family and work lives. So there will be difficulties on the board as people sort things out. Encouraging people to ignore certain posters who press their buttons...
Speaking of which, remember 'SalArmy 4Me' ? you old timers? He pressed a lot of people's buttons, we had some real fallout from that time. A lot of people experienced such frustration with him, mostly about religion and and its relation to a public message board, PSB and PB members asked him to refrain from prostletizing, and got very angry at the born-again, Salvation Army stuff. He often recommended medicines, and cited Medline abstracts (impuning that he was a real expert), that may or may not have worked for people, and loads of people got angry at him for that. I did too. The other biggie was that he encouraged people to self-medicate, and to buy meds online without prescriptions, and often cited web sites of foreign providers. Then he switched identities, and Dr Bob got frustrated too (for more, look at Psychobabble Administration, about 8 months, 1 yr back... Fascinating reading, there.) But I had to ignore him, just read his name and avoided whatever he posted. Lots of people couldn't do that, though, and I couldn't for other people who pushed MY buttons. Because we felt the Board was "ours," and rightly so. Once I e-mailed Dr Bob and said as much, and he encouraged me to feel that way, and for us to monitor each other and call each other on uncivil behavior.
So I guess it goes in cycles, and the Board may have some real incivility going on right now, I do notice it. But the benefits outweigh the inherent difficulties of the structure and the setting of a cyber-group-chat-therapy-help-support type of deal we have here with Dr Bob. He tries to run a tight ship, and people who want another captain have gone elsewhere, and that's probably all to the good. I think it's worth staying and fighting for this place, where we can hash out our 'stuff,' feel safe doing so (i.e., without getting blasted off the screen by others). So I come back often, even just lurking has its merits for me and for my life right now.
But this was one thread I had to respond to. Thanks for listening to me on my soapbox... (I know, I get that way).
All the best to everyone, oldies and newbies, and in-betweenbies...
Wendy
ps: Kazoo - it IS better to be an old-timer than a two-timer...
> Is it better to be an "old timer" than a "two timer"?
>
> I was once referred to as an "old timer" by ... well, I don't want to mention names here, but there's a "Dr." in front of his name ... anyway, I was aghast with such horror that my dentures fell out. It took me weeks to find them since I can hardly see through these coke-bottle glasses, and I can't hear so well either ... what's that?
>
> As people get older, their brains, the center of thought, do, too.
>
> So ... I forgot the question already.
>
> kazoo
Posted by Fi on April 2, 2002, at 10:15:10
In reply to To old-time PB posters, posted by judy1 on March 31, 2002, at 12:19:49
I'm not an old timer, and I never go to PB (and rarely to PBA these days). And I read a much smaller proportion of the PSB posts now, as they have increased but my browsing time hasnt.
So I am only partially qualified for this discussion!
I havent picked up on the 'bickering', but that may be just the posts I have read havent been the ones including it. There are still people who post wanting support, or to share how they are feeling. I've done it occasionally, tho I've been fortunate not to have been having any major problems.
I've tried to stop responding to peoples' posts by suggesting things to *do*, as I have learnt from the supportive posts I have received from others that reading that someone else is sympathetic, and wishes you well, can be plenty. Not that I always manage it, mind (apologies to those I have given irrelevant suggestions to!!)
Personally, the idea of 'all night vigils' with suicidal people scares me witless. Messages of support to suicidal people are very much part of this board, but also not an easy part of it. To be carrying on some sort of real time debate overnight would be too intense for me.
I do miss some of the posters who were around when I first started, but seem to have gone. They were often very wise- as well as sometimes funny!
Fi
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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