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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 49 to 73 of 85. Go back in thread:
Posted by kiddo on February 24, 2002, at 23:21:47
In reply to Re: I think that was CRAP!, posted by OldSchool on February 24, 2002, at 21:41:43
> Spike, unfortunately I hate to say this talk therapy/psychology mindset is so well lodged into mental health that it might take another hundred years to overcome. Too many people just cant comprehend what real mental illness is, too many people just cant deal with the fact everything you are originates in your brain. Your whole entire personality, thoughts, moods, emotions, feelings, SLEEPING, EATING, SEX AND COGNITION...its all CNS (brain) based and controlled.
>Here we go again....since 'real' mental illness is a medical condition I don't understand why it's being discussed here...(you say it's medical) I reiterate, psychological issues can CHANGE things in the brain.
> Talk therapy and psychology has been romanticized in the past. Mental illness has been "intellectualised" going all the way back to Freud. Ive noticed women in particular go for this sort of thing, maybe because women just like to talk about themselves, I dont know.
>
Maybe by some it's been romanticized and intellectualized, but women bashing is a little extreme don't ya think? If that isn't a stereotype I don't know what is...seems to me there are plenty of men in therapy, plenty of others that should be, and still plenty others that like to talk about themselves, but, of course, maybe this is just one woman's view of hearing herself talk :-)> I get frustrated too by it. I swear if I ever get better, Im going to do something about it. I might form my own lobby group or something, dedicated towards formally merging psychiatry into Neurology and ending this sick lie called psychiatry that masquarades as a branch of medicine.
>
> Old SchoolI think it's great you want to stand up for what you believe in. What I don't understand is why you frequent a Psychiatrist's site for support if it's a sick lie. I'm surprised you haven't started your own discussion board about it. Care to enlighten me?
Kiddo
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2002, at 0:50:27
Old School,
I am going to say now what I was trying very hard not to say in my early posts, because I thought, rightly or wrongly, that saying it might hurt you. I based that conclusion solely on my experience with my father, and you really do remind me of him. So if I'm wrong, please forgive me for being mistaken. And if I'm right, please forgive me for saying it.I hear the pain behind your anger and it saddens me that you have to feel it. I know the pain that both results in and results from either/or thinking and it is very deep. And I know the pain that results from alienating those who want to reach out to you and I wish sincerely that I could stop you from making that mistake. There are very kind people on this board, people who have in fact, said this more plainly than I have, since oddly enough I was trying to spare you my compassion. But I do have compassion for you and your very real suffering. It must hurt so bad to be so full of rage.
So I really did try to explain the real benefits people find in therapy. And I really did understand your need to vent your frustration. And I really was happy when I "heard" you laugh on the admin board.
And I really do hope that neither you nor Spike think that I was being hurtful or sarcastic to you. I was really just trying to protect you.
That being said, I also have very real compassion for those who are hurt by your assumption that their pain is not equally real and deep. I'm not sure you understand that that is the message they are getting from you.
Now if I'm right, and you are like my dad, I'm guessing you'll be very angry by this post and go on the offensive. And I want you to know that that's OK with me. I really do understand where that anger comes from. No one likes to be vulnerable. Just target it at me, please.
And if I'm wrong, and you are nothing like my dad, perhaps we can lower the tone a bit and have a real discussion.
And this is an interesting exercise in complete and total honesty.
With all sincerity,
Dinah
Posted by spike4848 on February 25, 2002, at 7:15:22
In reply to For Old School (and Spike too), posted by Dinah on February 25, 2002, at 0:50:27
Hey Dinah,
Thank you so much for your concern. That was a beautiful post.
I realize some of my posts have the undertones (or overtones for that matter) of angry. This stems from my first depression in medical school. I was told by a pdoc that I needed to talk out my problems and that medication was harmful. So I tried therapy without any meds for a year. I suffered so much and my condition worsened.
I finally switched doctors, and once I started nardil, I was back to normal .... no therapy needed.
I see this everday in my office as well. Patients who are endure years of therapy without benefit and worsening of there disease. Some of these patient actually give up hope and commit sucide. Once I properly medicate them, and I am an internal medicine doctor-not a pdoc, they are so much better.
So my anger does not stem from personal pain, because I feel good on nardil. It stems from frustration of see other suffer.
Thanks again.
Your Friend (I hope),
Spike
Posted by noa on February 25, 2002, at 7:42:55
In reply to Re: To each his own.... » noa, posted by Dinah on February 24, 2002, at 17:13:05
Posted by noa on February 25, 2002, at 7:43:17
In reply to Re: To each his own.... » noa, posted by Shar on February 24, 2002, at 21:35:02
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2002, at 7:44:41
In reply to No, thank you so much! » Dinah, posted by spike4848 on February 25, 2002, at 7:15:22
Hi Spike,
I really appreciate that you took this post in the spirit it was intended. I hope Old School did as well. It is really scary to be so open.I'm sorry you and your patients have had such bad experiences with therapists. For what it's worth, my experience and the experience of many many others is much different. My therapist referred me for medications almost immediately, seeing clear signs of OCD, although the possibility had never occurred to me. And when I fought the idea of medication, he was the one who convinced me to take it. Perhaps we can all agree that there should be a pox on all bad therapists.
In reading your posts last night on Admin, I was struck by what a good friend you were trying to be to Old School.
Gee, I feel the need for a group hug. But I guess that's because I'm a girl. (That was a joke by the way.)
Best wishes,
Dinah
Posted by noa on February 25, 2002, at 8:03:22
In reply to Re: I think that was CRAP!, posted by OldSchool on February 24, 2002, at 21:41:43
Your post suggests that I and others who disagree with you don't really understand mental illness. Just because I disagree with your all or nothing stance, must you dismiss me as somehow ignorant? The implication is that we who have different views are ignorant both of the science and of the firsthand knowledge of what it is to suffer with mental illness, both implications being wrong.
Posted by jane d on February 25, 2002, at 9:38:07
In reply to No, thank you so much! » Dinah, posted by spike4848 on February 25, 2002, at 7:15:22
Spike,
I'm curious about this. Statistically it seems likely that some of the professionals I deal with probably share a few meds with me but none of them has every said so. I would think that it would make patients feel a little less stigmatized. Of course, I'm not making general announcements to my co workers either.
Jane
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 25, 2002, at 10:27:57
In reply to Sorry, but that is plain *NONSENSE*! » noa, posted by spike4848 on February 24, 2002, at 20:36:52
I think you're taking this a little too far.. i agree whole heartedly that talk thereapy won't help me.. I don;t have issues...
BUT, I do have ingrained behaviours from dealing with my crap for so long, so I do believe a behavioural therapy such as CBT will help me...
i saw a therapist for one appointment, and she was sooo freudian she made me want to shout and scream at her.. how dare she blame my upbringing and my parents care..
Only got one appointment on the wonderful (!!) National health Service in the Uk though!!!I'd give therapy a try if it was offfered to me now, as I am so bloody desperate I will try anything.. i believe that if you've lived with it all long enough, and feel desperate enough, you will try ANYTHING... Don;t rule something out before you've tried it just cos you don;t think it will help.
Nikki
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 25, 2002, at 10:31:37
In reply to Re: I think that was CRAP!, posted by OldSchool on February 24, 2002, at 21:41:43
"Ive noticed women in particular go for this sort of thing, maybe because women just like to talk about themselves, I dont know. "
WHAT THE FUCK???????????????????????????? Now, I ahve been supporting you in this, but please, do not make your argument count for nothing with pathetic statements like this.
It makes you look a pointless, young, idiot with nothing good to say.
Nikki
Posted by OldSchool on February 25, 2002, at 11:13:36
In reply to For Old School (and Spike too), posted by Dinah on February 25, 2002, at 0:50:27
> Old School,
> I am going to say now what I was trying very hard not to say in my early posts, because I thought, rightly or wrongly, that saying it might hurt you. I based that conclusion solely on my experience with my father, and you really do remind me of him. So if I'm wrong, please forgive me for being mistaken. And if I'm right, please forgive me for saying it.
>
> I hear the pain behind your anger and it saddens me that you have to feel it. I know the pain that both results in and results from either/or thinking and it is very deep. And I know the pain that results from alienating those who want to reach out to you and I wish sincerely that I could stop you from making that mistake. There are very kind people on this board, people who have in fact, said this more plainly than I have, since oddly enough I was trying to spare you my compassion. But I do have compassion for you and your very real suffering. It must hurt so bad to be so full of rage.
>
> So I really did try to explain the real benefits people find in therapy. And I really did understand your need to vent your frustration. And I really was happy when I "heard" you laugh on the admin board.
>
> And I really do hope that neither you nor Spike think that I was being hurtful or sarcastic to you. I was really just trying to protect you.
>
> That being said, I also have very real compassion for those who are hurt by your assumption that their pain is not equally real and deep. I'm not sure you understand that that is the message they are getting from you.
>
> Now if I'm right, and you are like my dad, I'm guessing you'll be very angry by this post and go on the offensive. And I want you to know that that's OK with me. I really do understand where that anger comes from. No one likes to be vulnerable. Just target it at me, please.
>
> And if I'm wrong, and you are nothing like my dad, perhaps we can lower the tone a bit and have a real discussion.
>
> And this is an interesting exercise in complete and total honesty.
>
> With all sincerity,
> DinahDinah, the above post is exactly what Im complaining about. It is full of these psychological concepts about "pain" and blah blah blah. I read your post and it made me want to yawn. Its full of these vague psychological ideas that have nothing to do with mental illness. You arent listening to what Im saying in my posts. I mean what I say. You are overanalyzing my posts and reading psychological stuff into it. All Ive been saying is that I cant relate well to the usual mental health spiel because these sorts of problems are typically not thought of as "real" physically based problems. And from my perspective its a very real and very physical illness.
Im just saying I dont understand why mental illness isnt being treated by Neurology instead of psychiatry. I dont understand why others cant see the simple fact that this stuff is basically a disease of the nervous system. Not psychobabble.
We have all been brainwashed into thinking these problems are psychological or emotional issues, when in reality its pure Neurology stuff. Again, poor sleeping that goes hand in hand with severe depression is not caused by "issues" its caused by some physical Central Nervous System process run amok and is broken and needs to be fixed medically. Who studies sleep? Neurologists. All sleep labs are run by Neurology. Duh.
Please dont analyze it like you are doing and put all these psychobabble terms into it. Im just saying that maybe, just maybe if the doctors who treat serious mental illness were more well versed in Neurology and the brain rather than psychobabble, maybe more patients would recover.
Old School
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2002, at 11:15:46
In reply to Re: For Old School (and Spike too), posted by OldSchool on February 25, 2002, at 11:13:36
I had no intention of offending.
Posted by trouble on February 25, 2002, at 11:17:42
In reply to I dont relate well to the mental health community, posted by OldSchool on February 22, 2002, at 21:22:41
I was 27 and this was my first and last suicide gesture:
Riding my bike in a rainstorm turned the corner saw a mack truck hurling toward me and thought why the hell not and headed straight for it.
The driver honlked, slammed on his brakes, and swerved into a ditch.
I rode home, sat stiffly on my couch, soaking wet in the dark for 5 hours. In the morning I looked up United Way agencies in the phonebook and made an appointment w/ a talk therapist.I've been in therapy ever since. No more suicide gestures alone would have been worth the time and trouble. But there have been other changes due to therapy, including an inch by inch restructuring of my entire personality.
To say that therapy is useless flies in the face of my own experience, the above being just one of several fairly theatrical life-saving anecdotes.
I am so animated by this therapy argument, in part b/c I saw the worst minds of my generation destroyed by the lack thereof. But me, I'm a keeper, despite all predispositions to the contrary.
trouble
Posted by trouble on February 25, 2002, at 11:37:11
In reply to Re: For Old School (and Spike too), posted by OldSchool on February 25, 2002, at 11:13:36
> > Old School,
As one pitiless egghead to another I applaud your remarks to Dinah's well-meaning post. I too cringe when people start talkling like they have special access to my uniquely hidden inner pain. But Dinah loves, that's her schtick.
It's time for you to stop ignoring philosophy in your argument regarding the Old School model of humanity. I sense a Hard Determinist view afoot, seems its implications fit in w/ your position. Am I correct in that?
By relegating all human activity to the CNS you are implying that man has no soul, no psyche, and this is a matter for philosophy. They've done great things in philosopy. I'd like to hear something about your stance on the subject.
respectfully,
troubleP.S. We're moving toward logic and ethics now, that is to say Marlboro Man territory, you should feel right at home here.
> > I hear the pain behind your anger and it saddens me that you have to feel it. I know the pain that both results in and results from either/or thinking and it is very deep. And I know the pain that results from alienating those who want to reach out to you and I wish sincerely that I could stop you from making that mistake. There are very kind people on this board, people who have in fact, said this more plainly than I have, since oddly enough I was trying to spare you my compassion. But I do have compassion for you and your very real suffering. It must hurt so bad to be so full of rage.
> >
> > So I really did try to explain the real benefits people find in therapy. And I really did understand your need to vent your frustration. And I really was happy when I "heard" you laugh on the admin board.
> >
> > And I really do hope that neither you nor Spike think that I was being hurtful or sarcastic to you. I was really just trying to protect you.
> >
> > That being said, I also have very real compassion for those who are hurt by your assumption that their pain is not equally real and deep. I'm not sure you understand that that is the message they are getting from you.
> >
> > Now if I'm right, and you are like my dad, I'm guessing you'll be very angry by this post and go on the offensive. And I want you to know that that's OK with me. I really do understand where that anger comes from. No one likes to be vulnerable. Just target it at me, please.
> >
> > And if I'm wrong, and you are nothing like my dad, perhaps we can lower the tone a bit and have a real discussion.
> >
> > And this is an interesting exercise in complete and total honesty.
> >
> > With all sincerity,
> > Dinah
>
> Dinah, the above post is exactly what Im complaining about. It is full of these psychological concepts about "pain" and blah blah blah. I read your post and it made me want to yawn. Its full of these vague psychological ideas that have nothing to do with mental illness. You arent listening to what Im saying in my posts. I mean what I say. You are overanalyzing my posts and reading psychological stuff into it. All Ive been saying is that I cant relate well to the usual mental health spiel because these sorts of problems are typically not thought of as "real" physically based problems. And from my perspective its a very real and very physical illness.
>
> Im just saying I dont understand why mental illness isnt being treated by Neurology instead of psychiatry. I dont understand why others cant see the simple fact that this stuff is basically a disease of the nervous system. Not psychobabble.
>
> We have all been brainwashed into thinking these problems are psychological or emotional issues, when in reality its pure Neurology stuff. Again, poor sleeping that goes hand in hand with severe depression is not caused by "issues" its caused by some physical Central Nervous System process run amok and is broken and needs to be fixed medically. Who studies sleep? Neurologists. All sleep labs are run by Neurology. Duh.
>
> Please dont analyze it like you are doing and put all these psychobabble terms into it. Im just saying that maybe, just maybe if the doctors who treat serious mental illness were more well versed in Neurology and the brain rather than psychobabble, maybe more patients would recover.
>
> Old School
Posted by swank chick on February 25, 2002, at 12:09:44
In reply to The worst minds of my generation, posted by trouble on February 25, 2002, at 11:17:42
um, maybe a new psychiatris is in order? it might help to discuss your "issues" with talk therapy
and your contradictory behaviormari
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 25, 2002, at 13:11:13
In reply to Re: For Old School (and Spike too), posted by OldSchool on February 25, 2002, at 11:13:36
been pondering some more...
SOME mental illness are caused by "situations" and thus CAN be helped, even cured, by psychotherapy...
I think we need a distinction between what you consider to be neurological, as it is clear to me that some people will be helped by talk therapy alone.
I am insane - and I believe it is neurological... I am a freak... but that doesn't stop me seeing that there are others who canbe helped.
I do agree that it is over used, and many of us who want neurological help cannot get it... We just have to keep fighting and someone carry on day to day.
hang in there old school.. I love your posts, so you have some purpose in life *s*
nikki x
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2002, at 13:50:42
In reply to Broaden your argument Old School, posted by trouble on February 25, 2002, at 11:37:11
> > > Old School,
>
> As one pitiless egghead to another I applaud your remarks to Dinah's well-meaning post. I too cringe when people start talkling like they have special access to my uniquely hidden inner pain.
>Ah trouble. You are right again. I really didn't want to do it and I think I was wrong in doing it. And so my apology is quite sincere. I had posters remorse almost immediately. But you can't take back that "Confirm your post".
Posted by Fi on February 25, 2002, at 16:25:27
In reply to Re: Broaden your argument Old School » trouble, posted by Dinah on February 25, 2002, at 13:50:42
Its enormously complex, I think. There can certainly be profound effects on mood which appear to be purely physical, for example as a symptom of various physical illnesses.
On the other hand, we all react to stress/threat/loss with an emotional and physical reaction (who hasnt slept badly when worried?), and sometimes that can tip over into an abnormal reaction. And be helped by counselling/therapy- as well as medication in some cases. Outside events can lead to emotional reactions that can lead to changes in the brain.
Just to make it even more complicated, its entirely normal to react to an illness which has a big negative consequence on your life with an emotional reaction. Someone housebound with crippling arthritis is likely to feel angry or depressed, for example. So if the problem limiting you is a mental/psychological one, you have a double whammy.
I think the crucial point of all this is to be clear that people vary enormously; for some, anti-depressants will help as a physical treatment for what are experienced very much as physical symptoms. Others will experience it purely as a psychological reaction to a stress, and find psychological treatments both the most meaningful and helpful. And everything in between.
Therapists and neurologists need to be respectful of this range, and those of us who are patients/clients also need to respect that other peoples' experiences are different and as valid as ours.Fi
Posted by noa on February 25, 2002, at 17:39:55
In reply to But..., posted by NikkiT2 on February 25, 2002, at 13:11:13
The way I see it is that even mental illness with strong social-emotional contributing factors is still neurological. Experiences can actually alter the brain. Especially traumatic experiences. This can either set into motion a mental illness, or be one of several triggers to lead to the expression of a predisposed innate illness. So, for me, it is impossible to say that one is neurological and one is not.
Similarly, even with obviously inherited mental illness, life circumstances can still have the effect of altering the timing of the emergence, the severity and the course of the illness.
The brain alters experience and experience can alter the brain. This makes for a perpetually interacting system.
Posted by noa on February 25, 2002, at 17:42:04
In reply to Re: neurology or psychoanything, posted by Fi on February 25, 2002, at 16:25:27
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 25, 2002, at 23:55:38
In reply to Re: For Judy, posted by OldSchool on February 23, 2002, at 14:46:26
> This therapy stuff teaches you to compromise too much, to just go along and accept things the way they currently are.
Please don't exaggerate or overgeneralize. We've been through this before, so I'm going to block you from posting for two weeks.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding civility should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration, thanks.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 25, 2002, at 23:55:57
In reply to Sorry, but that is plain *NONSENSE*! » noa, posted by spike4848 on February 24, 2002, at 20:36:52
> Sorry, but that is plain *NONSENSE*!
> Frankly, I think you and others by supporting the notion that "therapy is important" are prolonging the suffering of patients who listen to this crap.
Please don't post anything that others could take as accusatory or put others down. We've been through this before, so I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on February 26, 2002, at 10:48:32
In reply to Re: For Judy, posted by m3 on February 23, 2002, at 14:56:38
> Amen, Dinah. Even if we are all just sacks of chemicals (I tend to agree), we can notice that other people expressing their chemicals inappropriately can upset our own chemicals, especially when we are small children. Is this the only way our chemicals get out of whack? No. Sometimes they do their own thing and it really isn't situational.
>
> But even so, why let our chemicals spew on other people who can't handle them, instead of using a trained chemical-spill technician?
>
> My two cents, as someone who also wishes her parents had gone to therapists.
>
> M3M3,
I hope you don't mind, but I shared your metaphor with my therapist. He liked it as much as I did. I could almost see him memorizing it for future use.Dinah
Posted by m3 on February 27, 2002, at 8:49:54
In reply to Re: Chemical spills » m3, posted by Dinah on February 26, 2002, at 10:48:32
Sure, no problem. Except that my head might get a little bigger. :)
m3
Posted by helenbpd on February 27, 2002, at 19:41:03
In reply to Re: But..., posted by noa on February 25, 2002, at 17:39:55
>
> The brain alters experience and experience can alter the brain. This makes for a perpetually interacting system.Hi, I'm pretty new and was exercised a bit by this thread too, rigid old codgers and fuzzy thinkers alike! ... a reaction I suspect was entirely intended. A lot of talking from a "manly" man. And a lot of black-and-white cognition and total denial of affect from someone who doesn't "believe" in cognitive disorders. :) But heck, that's why we're here, and I'm game for new ideas.
On this issue I agree 100% with Noe & Dinah. I firmly believe that mental functioning is an ongoing DIALECTIC between genes/environment.
I'm involved fairly intensely in a community of those with borderline personality disorder and their loved ones (yes, those "nonsensical" Axis II disorders Old School doesn't beieve in), and I must say, the evidence is fairly compelling that early trauma leaves some very distinct chemical marks on the psyche. Tell Old School to check out any research by Bessel von der Kolk, Judith Herman, Bruce Perry or Alan Schore, and he'll find plenty of hard evidence as to this phenomenon.
I see no reason why, if external circumstance (in the form of abuse) can create trauma (personality disorders), it can't also help cure trauma (in the form of cognitive therapy). It really IS possible for folks to "rescript" themselves into healthier brains. Hardly easy, sure, and with about the success rate of someone recovering mobility after a stroke, but it CAN happen! I've seen it. And meds can certainly help the process along by making a person less rigidly "stuck" in their cognitive patterns, as well as less prone to the physically-based affective stuff.
So: I agree, it's a lovely, fluid, never-ending cycle, as Dinah points out. And more power to the human experience of ALL of it! And fie on black & white thinking.
:)
Helen
http://home.hvc.rr.com/helenbpd(ps I just posted under Bipolar or Borderline with a similar schtick)
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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